2h thrust rage thread

[Nehvar]

Becomes helpless? I take it you've never heard of halfswording? Then again the devs stopped halfway through the process of finishing it ...

Yeah, half-swording is pretty flippin' useless given that it inexplicably uses polearm WPF instead of two-handed.

[Rumblood]

Yeah, half-swording is pretty flippin' useless given that it inexplicably uses polearm WPF instead of two-handed.

Well it is for balance I think. A pure melee can easily afford wpf in 2h and polearms both. A xbow/thrower hybrid could only afford wpf in 2h + their range weapon, making the pure melee more versatile with their weapon of choice than the hybrid can be. At least in theory. I think the damage difference is really the killing blow to the half-swording.

[Jarold]

I have only used half swording once when I was trapped in a shed against cup. At first we were punching each other because we couldn't swing our swords but then we both had the bright idea to start halfswording. GENIUS!

[Elindor]

^ Hmm...actually not a bad idea when I'm in a gatehouse or small wall in siege or something....

[Vodner]

Well it is for balance I think. A pure melee can easily afford wpf in 2h and polearms both. A xbow/thrower hybrid could only afford wpf in 2h + their range weapon, making the pure melee more versatile with their weapon of choice than the hybrid can be. At least in theory. I think the damage difference is really the killing blow to the half-swording.

You can take some polearm wpf as a 2h, but then you are sacrificing some speed and damage in your 2h mode. All you gain with that sacrifice is the ability to turn your nice, long 2h into a slow, incredibly short polearm that can't overhead.

I've done a 2h/polearm hybrid a few times, and there were only two situations in which I found halfswording to be useful: assisting with Nv1 ganks (where the short stab is beneficial), and fighting in very tight locations (which almost never happens in battle). The latter ability isn't even all that useful, since with 2h animations you can stare at the ground and execute a side-swing with roughly the same swing profile as an overhead, but which is far less likely to catch on things behind you. You also won't be competing with stabs from friendly 2d polearms and hoplites (it is really aggravating to be stabbing at somebody as a hoplite, and to have a guy with a 4d weapon next to you stabbing at the same target).

[Nightmare798]

Oh look, it is this thread, AGAIN.

Let me tell you something about 2h. It has been nerfed over and over and over again and has been made a mockery of what it once was. The damage was nerfed multiple times, the speed was nerfed CONSIDERABLY, the stab damage was crushed, stomped, tar & featherd, burned, then drowned. The animation was changed multiple times, hell even the lenght was shortened on some swords. Everything that you could possibly imagine nerfed has already been nerfed, and yet it is still not enough for some people.

Let me give you a hint

(click to show/hide)

Its the players, not the sword

really? let me tell you something. as of now, two handed swords have:
1. better reach than one handers
2. better stab than one handers
3. same speed [some are even faster] as long [102 reach] one handers
4. higher damage than one handers [to the point you can two hit a guy in heraldic mail]
5. hilt slashing and lolstabbing techniques

tell me exactly in what area got 2h effectivelly nerfed.

i also protest about those bullshit 2h axes, everyone who ever swung a fucking 1.5 meters long axe should agree that their speed is over the top. its practically same as 2h swords with a subtle [sarcasm] bonus against shields.

[Nightmare798]

You can do this with 2h swords as well. Aim an inch next to your opponent's head, release, and then simultaneously move forward and drag the hit in. You will land a full damage hit almost immediately after releasing.
But they are fine. The game is full of idiosyncrasies (hiltslashing, blocking massive weapons with tiny weapons, surviving getting hit by horses, surviving having your horse plow directly into a wall, shaft-stabbing, etc), but they are all beneficial to gameplay. The need for deep, nuanced gameplay supersedes the desire for realistic looking strategies.

i do not think that hiltlashes are beneficial to game play in any way, neither is shaft stabbing. it is an extremely cheap and bullshit way to land a hit.

[Vodner]

i do not think that hiltlashes are beneficial to game play in any way, neither is shaft stabbing. it is an extremely cheap and bullshit way to land a hit.

Define 'extremely cheap' and 'bullshit'. They are counterable strategies that give players tricks for sneaking hits in. Given how easy it is to block when playing defensively, I hardly think that there is a need to make things easier.

[Nightmare798]

Define 'extremely cheap' and 'bullshit'. They are counterable strategies that give players tricks for sneaking hits in. Given how easy it is to block when playing defensively, I hardly think that there is a need to make things easier.

hilt slash and shaft stabbing is bullshit and extremely cheap because they hit when they shouldnt. getting closeup to pikeman, only to get stabbed by shaft is pretty bullshit in my opinion. same with 2h. they just slash through you even at facehug range. thats imo extremely cheap.

[Vodner]

hilt slash and shaft stabbing is bullshit and extremely cheap because they hit when they shouldnt. getting closeup to pikeman, only to get stabbed by shaft is pretty bullshit in my opinion. same with 2h. they just slash through you even at facehug range. thats imo extremely cheap.

Why shouldn't they hit? I hope realism isn't the answer to that, because this game is about as much of a simulation as Ace Combat. Should small weapons automatically get crushed through by heavy blunt weapons? Clearly such a small weapon shouldn't be able to block such a heavy blow. Should stabs be unblockable, except by chambering? Clearly holding your weapon horizontally at waist-level wouldn't stop a thrust.

I also find it a little hypocritical that you are want to be able to uncounterably spam a pikeman to death once you get close, but that you also want it to be impossible for a 2h to spam you when he gets close (although it's perfectly counterable).

[Just A Random Pizza Guy]

Let's take a moment to appreciate the diet water this man is cutting.
67s in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4dKwHOfd2dk#t=66s
if too lazy to click and drag to 1:07

[Nehvar]

You almost had me tossing away more of my faith in humanity but it's an empty bottle of OceanSpray diet juice filled with water.

[Angantyr]

2h swing animations actually bother me as much as lolstabs. I think most top-tier 2handers are too fast for having such great swing arcs for sweetspots and group fighting; for the great swords they are too long to be so wieldy and the bastard- and longswords have undue stats both speed and damage-wise, their last buff unnecessary when they would have been more popular simply by nerfing great swords even further (which would still leave them as great weapons).

For years I honestly thought cRPG balancers were in favour of great swords as their stats were completely off; they have been nerfed quite a bit since and are not what they are in Native (where they are not called lolswords for nothing) but I think animations should be taken more into consideration when setting stats (being that 2h has the best animations speed for example come off as too high for many top-tier swords).

The stab animation is realistic enough though, the polearm grip option were for close quarters use or to brace against enemy horses. Also, contrary to what had been argued in this thread the great sword models in cRPG were historically dedicated stabbers, more awlpike than sword.


Anyway, animation abuse seem to be commonplace now, still miss the old glory days when 'lolstabbing' was first coined and when gentlemen consciously refrained from resorting to such (before the first Summer after release when Phyrex started playing and created a surge in lolstabbing). But I know this is the way it always goes, players press the limits of the game.

[Kafein]

You can do this with 2h swords as well. Aim an inch next to your opponent's head, release, and then simultaneously move forward and drag the hit in. You will land a full damage hit almost immediately after releasing.
But they are fine. The game is full of idiosyncrasies (hiltslashing, blocking massive weapons with tiny weapons, surviving getting hit by horses, surviving having your horse plow directly into a wall, shaft-stabbing, etc), but they are all beneficial to gameplay. The need for deep, nuanced gameplay supersedes the desire for realistic looking strategies.

I wouldn't call unblockable attacks a feature that makes the game mechanics deeper... Hiltslashing is something TW never intended and it shows.

[Vodner]

I wouldn't call unblockable attacks a feature that makes the game mechanics deeper... Hiltslashing is something TW never intended and it shows.

Quick stabs aren't unblockable. Stabs are considerably faster in native (and faster yet with the 'fastest' setting in NA), but people still manage to consistently block them.

If an opponent has an enormous ath advantage on you, then you may have to block twice versus a hiltslash. It certainly isn't uncounterable, though.