cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Kajia on June 20, 2013, 10:37:23 pm

Title: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Kajia on June 20, 2013, 10:37:23 pm
You may want to watch this short video first; on the subject of balancing player skill:

After I watched it I felt like this mod is kind of on the right track, so I don't want to focus on class-to-class hate, but on understanding why some of us actually choose to go glaive/katana/HX/etc. in regards to the required skill. The question is not whether or not they require any skill, but how much/how few they require, and for what effect relative to all the other victimsplayers experiences. So, pointing to the "noob-tube" (aka. assault rifle grenade launcher in CoD) in the video, I wonder if this is even fun in the long run, compared to our versions of the noob-tube, for example: a build that is maxed out agility + mw katana to get below the "average human reaction threshold" as I call it :) (other examples include, but are not limited to: repeated 2h stab use on duel servers, HX vs melee without dismounting, end-of-round kiting, general team-ganking of single players when it's not necessary, beating after knockdown in a duel, etc.).
I personally only play hybrid or balanced builds, and I enjoy a fair fight, giving and receiving hits -- it's actually hard for me to understand how people, who are not new players (!), can still revert to playing these strategies, and have fun doing so.
I hope this is written neutral enough for you folks, because as I've said, I don't want to spread class-to-class (or any) hate. I'm just curious!

I'd like to see some discussion on this matter, please.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Miwiw on June 20, 2013, 10:42:08 pm
Nerf HX!
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Clockworkkiller on June 20, 2013, 10:44:38 pm
Nerf 2h! noskill losers!

buff 1h!
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Kajia on June 20, 2013, 10:54:28 pm
Nerf HX!

----------------
--> Miwiw's Horse Archery Guide (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,31114.0.html) <--
ಠ_ಠ
I see what you did there.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Kafein on June 20, 2013, 11:05:09 pm
Problems arises when there are no more powerful techniques than the one you can execute without much skill involved. Which you know in some cases there are some things like that in cRPG.

Kicks for example. You don't need much to perform kicks (at the average 2013 cRPG player level anyway), and they are very very powerful. But quite situational too.

Stacking strenght and armor and spamming through hordes of enemies with complete disregard for your own survival, that is also something that maybe works a little bit too well given you can basically do that after one hour of playing.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Matey on June 20, 2013, 11:16:51 pm
Did he just call high agi katana characters noob tubers? Are you mad? A high agi katana char dies in one hit and has to hit everyone 3-10 times with a pretty high chance to glance. That is not a noob tube character. The noob tube character is the 36/3 str build with a great maul, or maybe a great lance cav... something with the ability to one shot just about anyone if you catch them off guard.

anyways. I play agi shielder so clearly I have picked the class that takes the most skill while offering the least power. Go me.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Kafein on June 20, 2013, 11:23:56 pm
Did he just call high agi katana characters noob tubers? Are you mad? A high agi katana char dies in one hit and has to hit everyone 3-10 times with a pretty high chance to glance. That is not a noob tube character. The noob tube character is the 36/3 str build with a great maul, or maybe a great lance cav... something with the ability to one shot just about anyone if you catch them off guard.

anyways. I play agi shielder so clearly I have picked the class that takes the most skill while offering the least power. Go me.

It's a different kind of style but if you know how to block, full wpf MW katana (or equivalent) builds are quite powerful. They don't hit weakly at all with that much wpf, and don't have much trouble hitting in the first place given the speed. Strenght stacks are much easier to play, that's for sure.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Alexander_TheGreat_ on June 20, 2013, 11:32:08 pm
alright.....

A cant go through B, without using skill. But A's skill are used to fight against C, soooo RESPEC TIME?
but since C, gets bored getting owned by A, they...RESPEC.....
so wtf is this, people build a certain build and play it till lvl 34-35 and figure out that they cant kill a class like HA or HX, they have to respec to shielder? HA and HX are bored because they cant kill shielders and they then decide to respec to maulers - This keep going, everyone respecs...

Power for new players? suck it........
if u want to achieve something you work for it. If you want to kill someone, get skills...improve yourself...

its possible that i misunderstood the video, because im drunk atm...in that case, sry :D
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Miwiw on June 20, 2013, 11:43:18 pm
ಠ_ಠ
I see what you did there.

:)
HA got so many nerfs, HX can only dream about. :D
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Gurnisson on June 20, 2013, 11:46:44 pm
I play agi shielder so clearly I have picked the class that takes the most skill while offering the least power.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Prpavi on June 20, 2013, 11:51:49 pm
Nerf 2h!
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Teeth on June 20, 2013, 11:57:43 pm
There is always the siege server.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Vodner on June 21, 2013, 12:02:38 am
You may want to watch this short video first; on the subject of balancing player skill:
<snip>
I have to disagree with that video on the need for easily executed, moderately effective strategies for new players. If a player isn't willing to lose to more experienced players while learning a new game, then that player probably shouldn't be playing competitive games - there are a number of fantastic cooperative games out there (although fewer than I would like).
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Kajia on June 21, 2013, 12:37:48 am
Did he just call high agi katana characters noob tubers? Are you mad? A high agi katana char dies in one hit and has to hit everyone 3-10 times with a pretty high chance to glance. That is not a noob tube character. The noob tube character is the 36/3 str build with a great maul, or maybe a great lance cav... something with the ability to one shot just about anyone if you catch them off guard.

anyways. I play agi shielder so clearly I have picked the class that takes the most skill while offering the least power. Go me.
I am more talking about tactics than build and weapon choices. Yesterday night, I faced this guy on battle (I will not name him bc it doesn't matter), who basically one-shot me two rounds in a row before I could react (I played xbow/1h/buckler, wearing tribal armor). The round after that he tried again and I was prepared enough to block his back-and-fourth katana "snake strikes" and deal with him. So even though this is just an anecdote and ofc no proof for something being OP (if anything it is proof that I wasn't aware enough), but it gives us an idea how tactics can be found that are easy enough to learn and extremely hard to cope with head on, if your reactions aren't like that of a machine. I'm all for variety in a game though, coping is more than winning a duel.
What I'm asking in this case, is what fun is it for people to kill people with a few spammed hits if they can't even react? I don't see the challenge.
I can see the challenge in survival though. I give you that.

I want to add: I don't "call" anybody a noob-tuber, but if you want to be seen as that and you find it insulting, well, sorry, wasn't my intention.
Anyway, this game allows this kind of tactics, so obviously some people will do it. I wouldn't expect you to throw away your katana. But you won't find me crying out over speed and/or damage nerfs (for most weapons, if you ask me).


I have to disagree with that video on the need for easily executed, moderately effective strategies for new players. If a player isn't willing to lose to more experienced players while learning a new game, then that player probably shouldn't be playing competitive games - there are a number of fantastic cooperative games out there (although fewer than I would like).
aye. But I would argue that the learning of strategies is not linear. Or in other words, things can be hard when you suck at it, but they can get easier to learn, when you have something else to do until you mastered it. Like when your low-level character uses stones until it can hold a sword. Or with actual gamer skill: using 1h for a while and learning blocking will improve your survivability when going ranged.

And also, isn't playing for your team to win also highly cooperative?
I like the cooperative aspect of this game more than I like the kill hunt, personally, but you can't get cooperative without the competition against the other team (you have to have a common task to be cooperative for). So I guess that people who like this game for killing other peoples game avatars, will not really enjoy it to the fullest when they only kill people and forget the meta-game. If this makes sense.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Rebelyell on June 21, 2013, 12:45:38 am
2h is for noobs

1h best for good players and pros with power to smack any other class
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Torost on June 21, 2013, 12:54:27 am
Very good video.

Crossbows is cprg equalent of "noobtube" ... made me rethink my hate for those diabolical devices..
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Matey on June 21, 2013, 01:03:34 am
Very good video.

Crossbows is cprg equalent of "noobtube" ... made me rethink my hate for those diabolical devices..

as far as noob tubes go, the xbow is so much less offensive than the ones from CoD. Usually when I see an xbower aiming at me i just dance around a bit while running at them and then slaughter them with ease. there arent too many who can semi-reliably hit someone who is actively dodging them.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Kafein on June 21, 2013, 11:17:34 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Yes, agi 1h is so stronk and EZ to play

My designated noobtube for cRPG are xbows too. They are very easy to aim with and very powerful.



And I would generally say, the video doesn't really make a good case for "noobtubes" at all. You can have strategies that are relatively easy to pull off that aren't completely gamey and repetitive like noobtube spam. They can be both "realistic" or at least not look ridiculous and cheap for the opponent. I mean, look at the heavy in TF2. Due to the high spread and high HP, many bad players can play heavy relatively effectively and more importantly while doing something that is fun. The worst thing that can happen with noobtubes (and I'm looking at modern mp shooter #454387) is that bad players using them get a sense of entitlement to random effortless rewards.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Ronin on June 21, 2013, 01:52:07 pm
I think native and other multiplayer warband modes are better than cRPG in this aspect of balance. Good video I can say.

The most effective and easy strategy nowadays is getting masterwork heavy armor set, grabbing a long and fast weapon (like war spear). Spamming and kicking all the way to win. You'll top the scoreboard at the cost of lower effort. This is the case for siege after all. Not that they are uncounterable but they require a lot of effort to counter especially for a shielder.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: MrShine on June 21, 2013, 03:58:59 pm
I think in the past archery & crossbows were more of a new player thing than they are now. It's pretty painful to level up an archer now . 

In terms of 'lowest skill to best payout' the two classes best suited for this in c-rpg are clearly 1h-shield (blocking is the first skill obstacle most players encounter in this game) and strength high-armor 2h/pole builds (the high soak allows for more spam and more mistakes while still dealing a lot of damage).

That doesn't mean I think all shielders or str 2hs are noobs or low skill, but those classes are probably where you'll find the highest % of players just starting out.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Falka on June 21, 2013, 04:11:42 pm
anyways. I play agi shielder so clearly I have picked the class that takes the most skill while offering the least power. Go me.

kingrimm :P
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Elindor on June 21, 2013, 04:15:28 pm
The point the video makers were trying to point out is that developers need to correctly give incentives to players to "move to the next thing".  Start out with methods that are easier but can still be rewarding on occation with little skill, and then move to methods that have more power but take a little more skill to use. 

The video warns against these jumps being TOO big - that if the next method is only slightly stronger but a LOT harder to do, then the players wont do it, and get stuck in "low skill land".  It warns that eventually they will quit because they either get bored of the easy method which is meant for new players, or they will come up against the "brick wall" because they never adapted new methods and gained skill over time so now they have too much "homework" to do all at once, and likely cannot even SEE the way to that end goal at this point, and quit.

----

That being said - I like the video and feel it may apply in cRPG but am still figuring out how exactly.  cRPG/Warband are different from any other game really.

Of course you can join in, get a bunch of armor and strength and a maul or big sword and just go nuts...but honestly at this point (yes, even on siege) if you don't know blocking, timing, footwork, feinting, etc.....your success rate is only gonna be so high.  This success rate will at first be enough, but eventually the player will want to do better and in more situations.  This should lead them to start learning those skills, and thus actually get better.  And in cRPG/Warband  these skills are beautifully easy to START learning, and extremely difficult to MASTER (especially when you throw in chambers etc).

So...after thinking about it....I think cRPG/Warband actually do a pretty good job of dealing with the issue that the video brings up.

----

My only suggestion to cRPG on this point would be to urge new players to SKIP THE FUN, and give them some basic advice on how the builds work (strength does this, agility does this, don't hybrid when you're a new player, etc).  Because at this point in the game's average skill level, being new to the manual combat AND being low lvl is probably too much for many players and they won't be able to see the potential that the game has.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Falka on June 21, 2013, 04:20:53 pm
Just a second page and already almost all classes were classified as "for noobs". cRPG community never dissapoints me :P

Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Imperious on June 21, 2013, 04:34:46 pm
I think.. It's shouldn't like  A=B for items.  If u are playıng well u will kill them all :o ..... it's injustice... What about  poor guys? Thay  spending their time a lot than u so  thay must got plus things against u..  like crpg if u play more u got more +3 and with it long live a few hits for one kill.. so dont be MERC.. Be receptive to low skills.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Swaggart on June 21, 2013, 04:36:22 pm
The thing I can't stand about videos like this is that someone who's clearly played too many video games puts out a video and then people treat it like gospel.

I'd like to see his resume.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Sebi_is_Hero on June 21, 2013, 04:44:05 pm
Noobtube is for my old friends and jerks. ( Like HX, HA )

Kniferun is for pro's ( Like 1h, Polearms, and other classed )


Nerf HX, HA!!!
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 21, 2013, 04:54:04 pm
I think people get a warped sense of trying to avoid the stigma of using a "noob tube". So they purposely choose to run around throwing rocks because "everything else is too easy".  Isn't that exactly the point of the game?  To find a class or play style that works for you and is the most efficient at killing people?

I'd say the great lance is my noob tube (if you're on a champ courser or arabian), while using something like a 1h or lance is going to be more efficient if you use it properly (aka gain the skill to use it properly).  Whereas something like the great lance takes about 10 seconds (at least) to kill one person, with a lance I could potentially kill someone every few seconds.

If someone is never able to get the skill (or the patience to put themselves in the situation necessary to perform properly with a 1h or lance from horseback) then I don't think there's anything dishonorable about sticking with their "noob tube". 

I think c-rpg actually does a really good job balancing for what they talk about in the video.  There's so many options and play styles and you can be just as viable and helpful to your team if you're running around with a great maul, as you are with a great lance.  It's just about how you choose to use the weapon in relation to your team and the enemy. 
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Tydeus on June 21, 2013, 07:09:19 pm
Can't say I agree entirely with the video, but the overall point is solid I think. Every successful fighting game has things like this(okay, maybe not darkstalkers), but those moves quickly become less effective as you begin to play opponents that learn the appropriate counters. And then you have other tools you slowly pick up that don't require much more skill, but again, they lose to players that both know and can properly execute the counters. It's really quite similar to M&B combat, particularly if you pay attention to the direction that crpg in trying to head. Unfortunately, nudges and kicks are too easy to pull off at the moment, but developers understand this and recognize that it's an issue.

Currently though, there isn't enough depth in M&B or cRPG for us to have these really difficult, skill based tools. M&B skill is defined by overall mastery of each individual skill, which includes awareness and cooperation with teammates, as well as execution. It would be great if we could find a nice skill:reward ratio for kicks and nudges. The testing I've done with urist leads me to believe that the new nudges/mehcanics will put us one step closer to achieving that.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Tojo on June 21, 2013, 07:39:20 pm
I think.. It's shouldn't like  A=B for items.  If u are playıng well u will kill them all :o ..... it's injustice... What about  poor guys? Thay  spending their time a lot than u so  thay must got plus things against u..  like crpg if u play more u got more +3 and with it long live a few hits for one kill.. so dont be MERC.. Be receptive to low skills.

Aight guys, they made the mod so that you can develop your character the way you want to fight. If I wanted to design my char. (tojo gen1) as a battlehardened beserkingly strong 2h, I am able to make it so. However, after playing my STR crutch 2h I wanted to try 1h shield and I switched. Now I am playing polearm/xbow after my most recent respec... I can not speak for the entire community, but I think most people switch classes pretty regularly. Switching classes keeps me playing the game.

Yes there are the people who go unbalanced builds (Crutches) and those who go impractical IRL builds (Plated charger xbow). Although, they use theses builds that are generally frowned upon they are still shaping the characters how they want to play them.

What i meant to say is that if you have trouble with a certain class A. have a teammate help B. respec to counter C. Play DTV

EDIT: Also, i try not to kill people who I know are peasants in the game that way they dont GTX and continue playing. I might try to help them learn to block with some easy swings even...
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Tydeus on June 21, 2013, 08:28:43 pm
I'm not going to address str or agi builds because fuck the police.

I think the game actually goes circular with its skill progression. Using a shield is pretty good before you learn to manual block. Then you realize that not using a shield is actually kind of superior. But then you realize you die to ranged alot, so you try that. Then you realize that shielders can mow you the fuck down. Then you switch to shielder and realize that it sucks and is hard and you switch to two hand, and so on and so on.
There's an old picture of something like that. It's about the skill curve and it ends with the conclusion that everything is mostly balanced.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Matey on June 21, 2013, 08:40:46 pm
I'm not going to address str or agi builds because fuck the police.

I think the game actually goes circular with its skill progression. Using a shield is pretty good before you learn to manual block. Then you realize that not using a shield is actually kind of superior. But then you realize you die to ranged alot, so you try that. Then you realize that shielders can mow you the fuck down. Then you switch to shielder and realize that it sucks and is hard and you switch to two hand, and so on and so on.

how dare you acknowledge that shielding is actually hard! everyone assumes it is ez mode cause lolshieldblockez.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 21, 2013, 09:17:03 pm
There's an old picture of something like that. It's about the skill curve and it ends with the conclusion that everything is mostly balanced.

Hopefully someone has it saved and will post it...saw it not too long ago
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Kajia on June 21, 2013, 09:51:17 pm
this one? :D
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 21, 2013, 10:12:43 pm
That's it! Thank you (will save it this time).

I've always felt the game was pretty balanced (at least in the last 2 years, even with all the nerfs and buffs, which I thought were unnecessary for the most part).  But then again, I've pretty much always been lance/1h/shield cavalry.  I think it's a very accurate progression map.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Elindor on June 21, 2013, 10:49:09 pm
this one? :D
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


I'd be interested in a written walkthrough of this if someone wants to summarize it lol.  I get most of it, but is it suggesting that the ultimate step is to start using javelin's? :)

I also don't know if I'd say that the majority of the population is that far down anymore lol ... I think they've migrated up some maybe.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 21, 2013, 10:53:23 pm
I don't think javelin users are the master race, or that was what the picture was implying.  I think it more represents the fact you think you have most of the game mastered, and it's pretty well balanced, and then you get a thrower to fuck up your day. 

Also would agree that the majority of the population is probably in the decent blocking phase or higher.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Elindor on June 21, 2013, 10:57:38 pm
Gotcha, I do agree with the overall idea of it though...game is pretty well balanced all things considered.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 21, 2013, 11:00:13 pm
Did a quick google search and looks like it came from May 2010, and has people giving their analysis in the thread:

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=115140.0
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Kafein on June 22, 2013, 12:10:02 am
And now in 2013 we get people going in reverse

thinking they are here

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


while really they are here

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on June 22, 2013, 12:47:16 am
And now in 2013 we get people going in reverse

thinking they are here

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


while really they are here

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Mad cause not at the state when spam fails on you.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Ronin on June 22, 2013, 08:11:06 am
(click to show/hide)

If I'm not mistaken, this picture is used for native not for cRPG.

That's why javelins are on the top, because they are fundamental to playing infantry.

You can also understand it from the the spam fails section. Because spam never fails in cRPG.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Teeth on June 22, 2013, 10:25:06 am
I think the javelin refers to at that point being able to beat most people with a javelin in melee mode, as I think neih was fond of doing.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Falka on June 22, 2013, 11:18:27 am
I think the javelin refers to at that point being able to beat most people with a javelin in melee mode, as I think neih was fond of doing.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Kafein on June 22, 2013, 11:42:53 am
Mad cause not at the state when spam fails on you.

Mad because those filthy luckers don't let me feint the hell out of them.

The only thing spam promotes is a blockfest.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on June 22, 2013, 11:53:13 am
Mad because those filthy luckers don't let me feint the hell out of them.

The only thing spam promotes is a blockfest.
If someone spams, hold, if someone feintspams, make a chamberattempt on his first feint, if he releases, you chamber, if he feints, you get a free hit, if he hold, you're likely gonna get fucked.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Micah on June 22, 2013, 01:58:28 pm
If someone spams, hold, if someone feintspams, make a chamberattempt on his first feint, if he releases, you chamber, if he feints, you get a free hit, if he hold, you're likely gonna get fucked.

Thats not true . On failing to chamber a feint you will still get fucked pretty often . At least with DGS against a wide variety of faster weapons - 1h,fast swords etc. - but often enough against other long weaps - other GSs, Axes, spears etc. Best tactic agains spam in my expereance is simply out-time by finding a window in the spam pattern. If you miss the window , you can still emergency-block, thats pretty safe imo.
Biggest problem was always delayed attacks , because they make it hard to get the right timing ...
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Memento_Mori on June 22, 2013, 06:58:10 pm
If someone spams, hold, if someone feintspams, make a chamberattempt on his first feint, if he releases, you chamber, if he feints, you get a free hit, if he hold, you're likely gonna get fucked.


Don't hold against spammers that's how you give them free hits, spam relies on your opponent making timing/positioning/swing direction "mistakes" holding an attack or delaying your attack turn against some one who's letting off attacks one after the other will end badly.

Agreed with the second part though.

Thats not true . On failing to chamber a feint you will still get fucked pretty often . At least with DGS against a wide variety of faster weapons - 1h,fast swords etc. - but often enough against other long weaps - other GSs, Axes, spears etc. Best tactic agains spam in my expereance is simply out-time by finding a window in the spam pattern. If you miss the window , you can still emergency-block, thats pretty safe imo.
Biggest problem was always delayed attacks , because they make it hard to get the right timing ...

This is true, using slower weapons you have to realize what you can and cannot chamber. With slower 2h I will never try to chamber an overhead especially from faster weapons because of how easy it is to feint out of the over head and into a side swing before my chambered overhead would have time to hit.

Delayed attacks or holds fail to spam/educated swinging easily, they're giving up precious moments of their attack time and it takes up moments of yours if you let them do it. Holding/delaying attacks only works if the person is following the "I attack you block, you attack I block" game.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Kafein on June 22, 2013, 09:37:50 pm
Thats not true . On failing to chamber a feint you will still get fucked pretty often . At least with DGS against a wide variety of faster weapons - 1h,fast swords etc. - but often enough against other long weaps - other GSs, Axes, spears etc. Best tactic agains spam in my expereance is simply out-time by finding a window in the spam pattern. If you miss the window , you can still emergency-block, thats pretty safe imo.
Biggest problem was always delayed attacks , because they make it hard to get the right timing ...

This and


Don't hold against spammers that's how you give them free hits, spam relies on your opponent making timing/positioning/swing direction "mistakes" holding an attack or delaying your attack turn against some one who's letting off attacks one after the other will end badly.

Agreed with the second part though.

This is true, using slower weapons you have to realize what you can and cannot chamber. With slower 2h I will never try to chamber an overhead especially from faster weapons because of how easy it is to feint out of the over head and into a side swing before my chambered overhead would have time to hit.

Delayed attacks or holds fail to spam/educated swinging easily, they're giving up precious moments of their attack time and it takes up moments of yours if you let them do it. Holding/delaying attacks only works if the person is following the "I attack you block, you attack I block" game.

this.

Zlisch how can you possibly say holding is a good idea against spam, that's precisely what spam beats easily.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Gurnisson on June 23, 2013, 04:01:20 am
Zlisch how can you possibly say holding is a good idea against spam, that's precisely what spam beats easily.

Short holds. Long holds are retarded moves and gets punished. Only times you should hold an attack for the amount of that amount of time is if you're supporting (holding an attack ready until your ally does another directional attack)
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Kafein on June 23, 2013, 01:34:37 pm
Short holds. Long holds are retarded moves and gets punished. Only times you should hold an attack for the amount of that amount of time is if you're supporting (holding an attack ready until your ally does another directional attack)

Explain to me how a short hold is going to help you when your enemy is already halfway through his attack animation.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Gurnisson on June 23, 2013, 01:47:15 pm
Explain to me how a short hold is going to help you when your enemy is already halfway through his attack animation.

If you react faster than a snail, you can just move the opposite way of were his swing came from and hit him in the start of your own animation. You can also fall back on a block if you want to play it defensively. Getting hit by spam is your fault, and your fault only. Short held attacks should still be quick enough to deal with spam though.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Kafein on June 23, 2013, 02:25:41 pm
If you react faster than a snail, you can just move the opposite way of were his swing came from and hit him in the start of your own animation.

Now do that with a 1h weapon.

You can also fall back on a block if you want to play it defensively. Getting hit by spam is your fault, and your fault only.

It is my fault when I die to spam, there's no questioning that. What I'm claiming is that the best countermeasure to spam is playing defensively, without holds or feints. Or doing chamberblocks if you are really confident. And that makes spam a generally detrimental thing with respect to combat length and amusement.

Short held attacks should still be quick enough to deal with spam though.

I don't see how holding is going to make your attack any faster. The usual problem with spam is that your reaction window when you see your enemy is attempting a follow up attack after you blocked once is already pretty small. What is the use of making it even shorter by holding ? You want to hold when your enemy is blocking, not when he is in the middle of an attack animation.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Gurnisson on June 23, 2013, 03:29:35 pm
Now do that with a 1h weapon.

The easiest weapon type to actually do it with...

I don't see how holding is going to make your attack any faster. The usual problem with spam is that your reaction window when you see your enemy is attempting a follow up attack after you blocked once is already pretty small. What is the use of making it even shorter by holding ? You want to hold when your enemy is blocking, not when he is in the middle of an attack animation.

It doesn't make it better, I never said that, but short holds rarely, if ever, get punished by spam. When I ran around with a 15/18 build with a non-loomed elite scimitar I used short holds a lot of the time to get the most damage out of the rather low base, but it was still fast enough to counter spamming. I think we have a different view on short holds. Talking like a quarter of a sec to get more damage while still avoid being taken down by random spam.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Kafein on June 23, 2013, 08:49:04 pm
The easiest weapon type to actually do it with...

With a left swing, you can do that more or less safely. An early right swing will always fail. In any case, a properly executed spam attack will also hit early.

It doesn't make it better, I never said that, but short holds rarely, if ever, get punished by spam. When I ran around with a 15/18 build with a non-loomed elite scimitar I used short holds a lot of the time to get the most damage out of the rather low base, but it was still fast enough to counter spamming. I think we have a different view on short holds. Talking like a quarter of a sec to get more damage while still avoid being taken down by random spam.

That really depends on who is spamming then. The people that usually try to spam are using 100ish speed weapons, or just hiltslash with the longer ones. Noob spammers are not a serious issue, once you know who they are.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: woody on June 27, 2013, 01:24:30 pm
Every type of player specialisation thinks at least one other type of specialisation is op and requires no skill.

All this proves, with 95% of "x is op" discussions, is that alot of people like to blame anything but themselves.

My favourite example of how people blame anything but themselves was a guy who was so furious about hits thru his blocks bug in game mechanics he posted a video as evidence, all it showed was the fuckwit was constantly releasing his blocks too soon.
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: Memento_Mori on June 28, 2013, 02:56:19 am
Every type of player specialisation thinks at least one other type of specialisation is op and requires no skill.

All this proves, with 95% of "x is op" discussions, is that alot of people like to blame anything but themselves.

My favourite example of how people blame anything but themselves was a guy who was so furious about hits thru his blocks bug in game mechanics he posted a video as evidence, all it showed was the fuckwit was constantly releasing his blocks too soon.

Hello, 2h main here, mains been 2h almost exclusively since before upkeep been a lvl 33 2h multiple times.

2h is the most forgiving of the melee classes, positioning, direction of attack & even the angle that you attack at all matter less for 2h than the other classes.

Would love it if 2h offered an equal challenge as the other melee classes then my main would be exciting again :)
Title: Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
Post by: woody on June 28, 2013, 07:40:41 pm
All this talk of easy to kill the best players by just spamming is BULLSHIT!  You might beat them 1 time in 20 by spamming if you fluke a couple of chambers but no more.

If you keep getting killed by spammers its not the system, you just are not any good. Am I really alone in blaming my own incompetence if someone spams me?