Author Topic: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill  (Read 4463 times)

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Offline Micah

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2013, 01:58:28 pm »
+1
If someone spams, hold, if someone feintspams, make a chamberattempt on his first feint, if he releases, you chamber, if he feints, you get a free hit, if he hold, you're likely gonna get fucked.

Thats not true . On failing to chamber a feint you will still get fucked pretty often . At least with DGS against a wide variety of faster weapons - 1h,fast swords etc. - but often enough against other long weaps - other GSs, Axes, spears etc. Best tactic agains spam in my expereance is simply out-time by finding a window in the spam pattern. If you miss the window , you can still emergency-block, thats pretty safe imo.
Biggest problem was always delayed attacks , because they make it hard to get the right timing ...
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 02:03:24 pm by Micah »
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Offline Memento_Mori

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2013, 06:58:10 pm »
+3
If someone spams, hold, if someone feintspams, make a chamberattempt on his first feint, if he releases, you chamber, if he feints, you get a free hit, if he hold, you're likely gonna get fucked.


Don't hold against spammers that's how you give them free hits, spam relies on your opponent making timing/positioning/swing direction "mistakes" holding an attack or delaying your attack turn against some one who's letting off attacks one after the other will end badly.

Agreed with the second part though.

Thats not true . On failing to chamber a feint you will still get fucked pretty often . At least with DGS against a wide variety of faster weapons - 1h,fast swords etc. - but often enough against other long weaps - other GSs, Axes, spears etc. Best tactic agains spam in my expereance is simply out-time by finding a window in the spam pattern. If you miss the window , you can still emergency-block, thats pretty safe imo.
Biggest problem was always delayed attacks , because they make it hard to get the right timing ...

This is true, using slower weapons you have to realize what you can and cannot chamber. With slower 2h I will never try to chamber an overhead especially from faster weapons because of how easy it is to feint out of the over head and into a side swing before my chambered overhead would have time to hit.

Delayed attacks or holds fail to spam/educated swinging easily, they're giving up precious moments of their attack time and it takes up moments of yours if you let them do it. Holding/delaying attacks only works if the person is following the "I attack you block, you attack I block" game.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 07:26:07 pm by Memento_Mori »

Offline Kafein

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2013, 09:37:50 pm »
0
Thats not true . On failing to chamber a feint you will still get fucked pretty often . At least with DGS against a wide variety of faster weapons - 1h,fast swords etc. - but often enough against other long weaps - other GSs, Axes, spears etc. Best tactic agains spam in my expereance is simply out-time by finding a window in the spam pattern. If you miss the window , you can still emergency-block, thats pretty safe imo.
Biggest problem was always delayed attacks , because they make it hard to get the right timing ...

This and


Don't hold against spammers that's how you give them free hits, spam relies on your opponent making timing/positioning/swing direction "mistakes" holding an attack or delaying your attack turn against some one who's letting off attacks one after the other will end badly.

Agreed with the second part though.

This is true, using slower weapons you have to realize what you can and cannot chamber. With slower 2h I will never try to chamber an overhead especially from faster weapons because of how easy it is to feint out of the over head and into a side swing before my chambered overhead would have time to hit.

Delayed attacks or holds fail to spam/educated swinging easily, they're giving up precious moments of their attack time and it takes up moments of yours if you let them do it. Holding/delaying attacks only works if the person is following the "I attack you block, you attack I block" game.

this.

Zlisch how can you possibly say holding is a good idea against spam, that's precisely what spam beats easily.

Offline Gurnisson

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2013, 04:01:20 am »
0
Zlisch how can you possibly say holding is a good idea against spam, that's precisely what spam beats easily.

Short holds. Long holds are retarded moves and gets punished. Only times you should hold an attack for the amount of that amount of time is if you're supporting (holding an attack ready until your ally does another directional attack)
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.

Offline Kafein

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2013, 01:34:37 pm »
0
Short holds. Long holds are retarded moves and gets punished. Only times you should hold an attack for the amount of that amount of time is if you're supporting (holding an attack ready until your ally does another directional attack)

Explain to me how a short hold is going to help you when your enemy is already halfway through his attack animation.

Offline Gurnisson

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2013, 01:47:15 pm »
0
Explain to me how a short hold is going to help you when your enemy is already halfway through his attack animation.

If you react faster than a snail, you can just move the opposite way of were his swing came from and hit him in the start of your own animation. You can also fall back on a block if you want to play it defensively. Getting hit by spam is your fault, and your fault only. Short held attacks should still be quick enough to deal with spam though.
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.

Offline Kafein

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2013, 02:25:41 pm »
+2
If you react faster than a snail, you can just move the opposite way of were his swing came from and hit him in the start of your own animation.

Now do that with a 1h weapon.

You can also fall back on a block if you want to play it defensively. Getting hit by spam is your fault, and your fault only.

It is my fault when I die to spam, there's no questioning that. What I'm claiming is that the best countermeasure to spam is playing defensively, without holds or feints. Or doing chamberblocks if you are really confident. And that makes spam a generally detrimental thing with respect to combat length and amusement.

Short held attacks should still be quick enough to deal with spam though.

I don't see how holding is going to make your attack any faster. The usual problem with spam is that your reaction window when you see your enemy is attempting a follow up attack after you blocked once is already pretty small. What is the use of making it even shorter by holding ? You want to hold when your enemy is blocking, not when he is in the middle of an attack animation.

Offline Gurnisson

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2013, 03:29:35 pm »
-1
Now do that with a 1h weapon.

The easiest weapon type to actually do it with...

I don't see how holding is going to make your attack any faster. The usual problem with spam is that your reaction window when you see your enemy is attempting a follow up attack after you blocked once is already pretty small. What is the use of making it even shorter by holding ? You want to hold when your enemy is blocking, not when he is in the middle of an attack animation.

It doesn't make it better, I never said that, but short holds rarely, if ever, get punished by spam. When I ran around with a 15/18 build with a non-loomed elite scimitar I used short holds a lot of the time to get the most damage out of the rather low base, but it was still fast enough to counter spamming. I think we have a different view on short holds. Talking like a quarter of a sec to get more damage while still avoid being taken down by random spam.
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.

Offline Kafein

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2013, 08:49:04 pm »
0
The easiest weapon type to actually do it with...

With a left swing, you can do that more or less safely. An early right swing will always fail. In any case, a properly executed spam attack will also hit early.

It doesn't make it better, I never said that, but short holds rarely, if ever, get punished by spam. When I ran around with a 15/18 build with a non-loomed elite scimitar I used short holds a lot of the time to get the most damage out of the rather low base, but it was still fast enough to counter spamming. I think we have a different view on short holds. Talking like a quarter of a sec to get more damage while still avoid being taken down by random spam.

That really depends on who is spamming then. The people that usually try to spam are using 100ish speed weapons, or just hiltslash with the longer ones. Noob spammers are not a serious issue, once you know who they are.

Offline woody

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2013, 01:24:30 pm »
0
Every type of player specialisation thinks at least one other type of specialisation is op and requires no skill.

All this proves, with 95% of "x is op" discussions, is that alot of people like to blame anything but themselves.

My favourite example of how people blame anything but themselves was a guy who was so furious about hits thru his blocks bug in game mechanics he posted a video as evidence, all it showed was the fuckwit was constantly releasing his blocks too soon.

Offline Memento_Mori

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2013, 02:56:19 am »
0
Every type of player specialisation thinks at least one other type of specialisation is op and requires no skill.

All this proves, with 95% of "x is op" discussions, is that alot of people like to blame anything but themselves.

My favourite example of how people blame anything but themselves was a guy who was so furious about hits thru his blocks bug in game mechanics he posted a video as evidence, all it showed was the fuckwit was constantly releasing his blocks too soon.

Hello, 2h main here, mains been 2h almost exclusively since before upkeep been a lvl 33 2h multiple times.

2h is the most forgiving of the melee classes, positioning, direction of attack & even the angle that you attack at all matter less for 2h than the other classes.

Would love it if 2h offered an equal challenge as the other melee classes then my main would be exciting again :)

Offline woody

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2013, 07:40:41 pm »
+1
All this talk of easy to kill the best players by just spamming is BULLSHIT!  You might beat them 1 time in 20 by spamming if you fluke a couple of chambers but no more.

If you keep getting killed by spammers its not the system, you just are not any good. Am I really alone in blaming my own incompetence if someone spams me?