[Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill

[Torost]

Very good video.

Crossbows is cprg equalent of "noobtube" ... made me rethink my hate for those diabolical devices..

[Matey]

Very good video.

Crossbows is cprg equalent of "noobtube" ... made me rethink my hate for those diabolical devices..

as far as noob tubes go, the xbow is so much less offensive than the ones from CoD. Usually when I see an xbower aiming at me i just dance around a bit while running at them and then slaughter them with ease. there arent too many who can semi-reliably hit someone who is actively dodging them.

[Kafein]

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Yes, agi 1h is so stronk and EZ to play

My designated noobtube for cRPG are xbows too. They are very easy to aim with and very powerful.



And I would generally say, the video doesn't really make a good case for "noobtubes" at all. You can have strategies that are relatively easy to pull off that aren't completely gamey and repetitive like noobtube spam. They can be both "realistic" or at least not look ridiculous and cheap for the opponent. I mean, look at the heavy in TF2. Due to the high spread and high HP, many bad players can play heavy relatively effectively and more importantly while doing something that is fun. The worst thing that can happen with noobtubes (and I'm looking at modern mp shooter #454387) is that bad players using them get a sense of entitlement to random effortless rewards.

[Ronin]

I think native and other multiplayer warband modes are better than cRPG in this aspect of balance. Good video I can say.

The most effective and easy strategy nowadays is getting masterwork heavy armor set, grabbing a long and fast weapon (like war spear). Spamming and kicking all the way to win. You'll top the scoreboard at the cost of lower effort. This is the case for siege after all. Not that they are uncounterable but they require a lot of effort to counter especially for a shielder.

[MrShine]

I think in the past archery & crossbows were more of a new player thing than they are now. It's pretty painful to level up an archer now . 

In terms of 'lowest skill to best payout' the two classes best suited for this in c-rpg are clearly 1h-shield (blocking is the first skill obstacle most players encounter in this game) and strength high-armor 2h/pole builds (the high soak allows for more spam and more mistakes while still dealing a lot of damage).

That doesn't mean I think all shielders or str 2hs are noobs or low skill, but those classes are probably where you'll find the highest % of players just starting out.

[Falka]

anyways. I play agi shielder so clearly I have picked the class that takes the most skill while offering the least power. Go me.

kingrimm

[Elindor]

The point the video makers were trying to point out is that developers need to correctly give incentives to players to "move to the next thing".  Start out with methods that are easier but can still be rewarding on occation with little skill, and then move to methods that have more power but take a little more skill to use. 

The video warns against these jumps being TOO big - that if the next method is only slightly stronger but a LOT harder to do, then the players wont do it, and get stuck in "low skill land".  It warns that eventually they will quit because they either get bored of the easy method which is meant for new players, or they will come up against the "brick wall" because they never adapted new methods and gained skill over time so now they have too much "homework" to do all at once, and likely cannot even SEE the way to that end goal at this point, and quit.

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That being said - I like the video and feel it may apply in cRPG but am still figuring out how exactly.  cRPG/Warband are different from any other game really.

Of course you can join in, get a bunch of armor and strength and a maul or big sword and just go nuts...but honestly at this point (yes, even on siege) if you don't know blocking, timing, footwork, feinting, etc.....your success rate is only gonna be so high.  This success rate will at first be enough, but eventually the player will want to do better and in more situations.  This should lead them to start learning those skills, and thus actually get better.  And in cRPG/Warband  these skills are beautifully easy to START learning, and extremely difficult to MASTER (especially when you throw in chambers etc).

So...after thinking about it....I think cRPG/Warband actually do a pretty good job of dealing with the issue that the video brings up.

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My only suggestion to cRPG on this point would be to urge new players to SKIP THE FUN, and give them some basic advice on how the builds work (strength does this, agility does this, don't hybrid when you're a new player, etc).  Because at this point in the game's average skill level, being new to the manual combat AND being low lvl is probably too much for many players and they won't be able to see the potential that the game has.

[Falka]

Just a second page and already almost all classes were classified as "for noobs". cRPG community never dissapoints me

[Imperious]

I think.. It's shouldn't like  A=B for items.  If u are playıng well u will kill them all ..... it's injustice... What about  poor guys? Thay  spending their time a lot than u so  thay must got plus things against u..  like crpg if u play more u got more +3 and with it long live a few hits for one kill.. so dont be MERC.. Be receptive to low skills.

[Swaggart]

The thing I can't stand about videos like this is that someone who's clearly played too many video games puts out a video and then people treat it like gospel.

I'd like to see his resume.

[Sebi_is_Hero]

Noobtube is for my old friends and jerks. ( Like HX, HA )

Kniferun is for pro's ( Like 1h, Polearms, and other classed )


Nerf HX, HA!!!

[CrazyCracka420]

I think people get a warped sense of trying to avoid the stigma of using a "noob tube". So they purposely choose to run around throwing rocks because "everything else is too easy".  Isn't that exactly the point of the game?  To find a class or play style that works for you and is the most efficient at killing people?

I'd say the great lance is my noob tube (if you're on a champ courser or arabian), while using something like a 1h or lance is going to be more efficient if you use it properly (aka gain the skill to use it properly).  Whereas something like the great lance takes about 10 seconds (at least) to kill one person, with a lance I could potentially kill someone every few seconds.

If someone is never able to get the skill (or the patience to put themselves in the situation necessary to perform properly with a 1h or lance from horseback) then I don't think there's anything dishonorable about sticking with their "noob tube". 

I think c-rpg actually does a really good job balancing for what they talk about in the video.  There's so many options and play styles and you can be just as viable and helpful to your team if you're running around with a great maul, as you are with a great lance.  It's just about how you choose to use the weapon in relation to your team and the enemy. 

[Tydeus]

Can't say I agree entirely with the video, but the overall point is solid I think. Every successful fighting game has things like this(okay, maybe not darkstalkers), but those moves quickly become less effective as you begin to play opponents that learn the appropriate counters. And then you have other tools you slowly pick up that don't require much more skill, but again, they lose to players that both know and can properly execute the counters. It's really quite similar to M&B combat, particularly if you pay attention to the direction that crpg in trying to head. Unfortunately, nudges and kicks are too easy to pull off at the moment, but developers understand this and recognize that it's an issue.

Currently though, there isn't enough depth in M&B or cRPG for us to have these really difficult, skill based tools. M&B skill is defined by overall mastery of each individual skill, which includes awareness and cooperation with teammates, as well as execution. It would be great if we could find a nice skill:reward ratio for kicks and nudges. The testing I've done with urist leads me to believe that the new nudges/mehcanics will put us one step closer to achieving that.

[Tojo]

I think.. It's shouldn't like  A=B for items.  If u are playıng well u will kill them all ..... it's injustice... What about  poor guys? Thay  spending their time a lot than u so  thay must got plus things against u..  like crpg if u play more u got more +3 and with it long live a few hits for one kill.. so dont be MERC.. Be receptive to low skills.

Aight guys, they made the mod so that you can develop your character the way you want to fight. If I wanted to design my char. (tojo gen1) as a battlehardened beserkingly strong 2h, I am able to make it so. However, after playing my STR crutch 2h I wanted to try 1h shield and I switched. Now I am playing polearm/xbow after my most recent respec... I can not speak for the entire community, but I think most people switch classes pretty regularly. Switching classes keeps me playing the game.

Yes there are the people who go unbalanced builds (Crutches) and those who go impractical IRL builds (Plated charger xbow). Although, they use theses builds that are generally frowned upon they are still shaping the characters how they want to play them.

What i meant to say is that if you have trouble with a certain class A. have a teammate help B. respec to counter C. Play DTV

EDIT: Also, i try not to kill people who I know are peasants in the game that way they dont GTX and continue playing. I might try to help them learn to block with some easy swings even...

[Tydeus]

I'm not going to address str or agi builds because fuck the police.

I think the game actually goes circular with its skill progression. Using a shield is pretty good before you learn to manual block. Then you realize that not using a shield is actually kind of superior. But then you realize you die to ranged alot, so you try that. Then you realize that shielders can mow you the fuck down. Then you switch to shielder and realize that it sucks and is hard and you switch to two hand, and so on and so on.

There's an old picture of something like that. It's about the skill curve and it ends with the conclusion that everything is mostly balanced.