Author Topic: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill  (Read 4533 times)

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Offline Kajia

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[Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« on: June 20, 2013, 10:37:23 pm »
+22
You may want to watch this short video first; on the subject of balancing player skill:

After I watched it I felt like this mod is kind of on the right track, so I don't want to focus on class-to-class hate, but on understanding why some of us actually choose to go glaive/katana/HX/etc. in regards to the required skill. The question is not whether or not they require any skill, but how much/how few they require, and for what effect relative to all the other victimsplayers experiences. So, pointing to the "noob-tube" (aka. assault rifle grenade launcher in CoD) in the video, I wonder if this is even fun in the long run, compared to our versions of the noob-tube, for example: a build that is maxed out agility + mw katana to get below the "average human reaction threshold" as I call it :) (other examples include, but are not limited to: repeated 2h stab use on duel servers, HX vs melee without dismounting, end-of-round kiting, general team-ganking of single players when it's not necessary, beating after knockdown in a duel, etc.).
I personally only play hybrid or balanced builds, and I enjoy a fair fight, giving and receiving hits -- it's actually hard for me to understand how people, who are not new players (!), can still revert to playing these strategies, and have fun doing so.
I hope this is written neutral enough for you folks, because as I've said, I don't want to spread class-to-class (or any) hate. I'm just curious!

I'd like to see some discussion on this matter, please.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 08:46:35 pm by Kalam »

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Offline Miwiw

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2013, 10:42:08 pm »
+9
Nerf HX!
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Offline Clockworkkiller

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2013, 10:44:38 pm »
+1
Nerf 2h! noskill losers!

buff 1h!
You are a horrible human being clockwork.

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Offline Kajia

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2013, 10:54:28 pm »
+5
Nerf HX!

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I see what you did there.

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Offline Kafein

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2013, 11:05:09 pm »
+3
Problems arises when there are no more powerful techniques than the one you can execute without much skill involved. Which you know in some cases there are some things like that in cRPG.

Kicks for example. You don't need much to perform kicks (at the average 2013 cRPG player level anyway), and they are very very powerful. But quite situational too.

Stacking strenght and armor and spamming through hordes of enemies with complete disregard for your own survival, that is also something that maybe works a little bit too well given you can basically do that after one hour of playing.

Offline Matey

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2013, 11:16:51 pm »
+2
Did he just call high agi katana characters noob tubers? Are you mad? A high agi katana char dies in one hit and has to hit everyone 3-10 times with a pretty high chance to glance. That is not a noob tube character. The noob tube character is the 36/3 str build with a great maul, or maybe a great lance cav... something with the ability to one shot just about anyone if you catch them off guard.

anyways. I play agi shielder so clearly I have picked the class that takes the most skill while offering the least power. Go me.

Offline Kafein

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2013, 11:23:56 pm »
+2
Did he just call high agi katana characters noob tubers? Are you mad? A high agi katana char dies in one hit and has to hit everyone 3-10 times with a pretty high chance to glance. That is not a noob tube character. The noob tube character is the 36/3 str build with a great maul, or maybe a great lance cav... something with the ability to one shot just about anyone if you catch them off guard.

anyways. I play agi shielder so clearly I have picked the class that takes the most skill while offering the least power. Go me.

It's a different kind of style but if you know how to block, full wpf MW katana (or equivalent) builds are quite powerful. They don't hit weakly at all with that much wpf, and don't have much trouble hitting in the first place given the speed. Strenght stacks are much easier to play, that's for sure.

Offline Alexander_TheGreat_

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2013, 11:32:08 pm »
0
alright.....

A cant go through B, without using skill. But A's skill are used to fight against C, soooo RESPEC TIME?
but since C, gets bored getting owned by A, they...RESPEC.....
so wtf is this, people build a certain build and play it till lvl 34-35 and figure out that they cant kill a class like HA or HX, they have to respec to shielder? HA and HX are bored because they cant kill shielders and they then decide to respec to maulers - This keep going, everyone respecs...

Power for new players? suck it........
if u want to achieve something you work for it. If you want to kill someone, get skills...improve yourself...

its possible that i misunderstood the video, because im drunk atm...in that case, sry :D
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Offline Miwiw

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2013, 11:43:18 pm »
0
ಠ_ಠ
I see what you did there.

:)
HA got so many nerfs, HX can only dream about. :D
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Offline Gurnisson

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2013, 11:46:44 pm »
+10
I play agi shielder so clearly I have picked the class that takes the most skill while offering the least power.

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2013, 11:51:49 pm »
0
Nerf 2h!
And now he can't play because of "common sense" and he doesn't understand how this common sense works
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Offline Teeth

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2013, 11:57:43 pm »
-1
There is always the siege server.

Offline Vodner

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2013, 12:02:38 am »
+8
You may want to watch this short video first; on the subject of balancing player skill:
<snip>
I have to disagree with that video on the need for easily executed, moderately effective strategies for new players. If a player isn't willing to lose to more experienced players while learning a new game, then that player probably shouldn't be playing competitive games - there are a number of fantastic cooperative games out there (although fewer than I would like).

Offline Kajia

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2013, 12:37:48 am »
0
Did he just call high agi katana characters noob tubers? Are you mad? A high agi katana char dies in one hit and has to hit everyone 3-10 times with a pretty high chance to glance. That is not a noob tube character. The noob tube character is the 36/3 str build with a great maul, or maybe a great lance cav... something with the ability to one shot just about anyone if you catch them off guard.

anyways. I play agi shielder so clearly I have picked the class that takes the most skill while offering the least power. Go me.
I am more talking about tactics than build and weapon choices. Yesterday night, I faced this guy on battle (I will not name him bc it doesn't matter), who basically one-shot me two rounds in a row before I could react (I played xbow/1h/buckler, wearing tribal armor). The round after that he tried again and I was prepared enough to block his back-and-fourth katana "snake strikes" and deal with him. So even though this is just an anecdote and ofc no proof for something being OP (if anything it is proof that I wasn't aware enough), but it gives us an idea how tactics can be found that are easy enough to learn and extremely hard to cope with head on, if your reactions aren't like that of a machine. I'm all for variety in a game though, coping is more than winning a duel.
What I'm asking in this case, is what fun is it for people to kill people with a few spammed hits if they can't even react? I don't see the challenge.
I can see the challenge in survival though. I give you that.

I want to add: I don't "call" anybody a noob-tuber, but if you want to be seen as that and you find it insulting, well, sorry, wasn't my intention.
Anyway, this game allows this kind of tactics, so obviously some people will do it. I wouldn't expect you to throw away your katana. But you won't find me crying out over speed and/or damage nerfs (for most weapons, if you ask me).


I have to disagree with that video on the need for easily executed, moderately effective strategies for new players. If a player isn't willing to lose to more experienced players while learning a new game, then that player probably shouldn't be playing competitive games - there are a number of fantastic cooperative games out there (although fewer than I would like).
aye. But I would argue that the learning of strategies is not linear. Or in other words, things can be hard when you suck at it, but they can get easier to learn, when you have something else to do until you mastered it. Like when your low-level character uses stones until it can hold a sword. Or with actual gamer skill: using 1h for a while and learning blocking will improve your survivability when going ranged.

And also, isn't playing for your team to win also highly cooperative?
I like the cooperative aspect of this game more than I like the kill hunt, personally, but you can't get cooperative without the competition against the other team (you have to have a common task to be cooperative for). So I guess that people who like this game for killing other peoples game avatars, will not really enjoy it to the fullest when they only kill people and forget the meta-game. If this makes sense.

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Offline Rebelyell

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Re: [Extra Credits video] Balancing for Skill
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2013, 12:45:38 am »
+1
2h is for noobs

1h best for good players and pros with power to smack any other class
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