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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Panos on June 08, 2013, 02:21:40 pm

Title: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Panos on June 08, 2013, 02:21:40 pm
It`s really retarded, Im playing with a poleaxe with 9 PS and from 10 blunt hits, only 1 or 2 knock down, but on the other hand, I`m getting knockdown from 1handers pretty easy..

REALLY??


Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Kafein on June 08, 2013, 02:28:56 pm
It`s really retarded, Im playing with a poleaxe with 9 PS and from 10 blunt hits, only 1 or 2 knock down, but on the other hand, I`m getting knockdown from 1handers pretty easy..

REALLY??

You knock people down more than them. The only thing that makes you think otherwise is that 1h blunt need 8658464 hits to kill people.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: bavvoz on June 08, 2013, 02:41:05 pm
I have an idea, lets remove every weapon instead. Every day theres crying over how this and that is op
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Panos on June 08, 2013, 02:43:11 pm
I have an idea, lets remove every weapon instead. Every day theres crying over how this and that is op

I never said 1h weapons are op, I just find it irritating how a dude with a 70 cm weapon and 12 str can knock me down easier than a polearmer with 9 ps.

At least make knockdown chance STR based, and not based on luck
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Moncho on June 08, 2013, 02:48:32 pm
Code: [Select]
(rand(0.0, 1.0) < min(item_weight * 0.33, 2.0) * min((raw_damage - 20.0) * 0.5, 10.0) * 0.015)
This is the line that determines knockdown as far as I know. Assuming that a good hit will most likely hit the upper border for the raw_damage(40 dam), even with a 1h mace, it would simplify to:

Code: [Select]
(rand(0.0, 1.0) < min(item_weight * 0.33, 2.0) *  0.15)
With a weapon lighter than the upper weight limit of 6, it would further simplify to:

Code: [Select]
(rand(0.0, 1.0) < item_weight *  0.05
So a winged mace with the weight of 1.8 would have a kd chance of 1.8/20 = 9% and a mallet with a weight of 6 would have 6/20=30%. Getting knocked down twice in a row would mean for the mace: 9%*9%=0.081%<1%. Happens less than one in a hundred times. It's a bit more likely for the mallet (30%*30%=9%) but the recipient will most likely be dead before.

I don't really see a problem here. Personally I'd substitude the luck based knockdown with a skillbased one, but that would take work. Also cmp busy and I have dragons to kill.

So 1h weapons do have a lower chance to kd than your poleaxe...
This might be a matter of perception, of only remembering the hits that actually knocked you down, and amplifying them in your head (happens to me often)

Also, from the game mechanic megathread:

Quote
The mechanic for knockdown is (rand(0.0, 1.0) < min(item_weight * 0.33, 2.0) * min((raw_damage - 20.0) * 0.5, 10.0) * 0.015) according to Paul (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,20938.msg299772.html#msg299772). How this kind of equation works is that the higher the right side value is, the higher the chance of success is. Percentual chance of success is the right side of equation.

This means two things affect knockdown chance. Weight of the item and raw damage of the swing. If we assume a hit does at least 40 raw damage, which is very likely for a decent hit from almost any weapon with knockdown with 5 PS or so, the knockdown chance boils down to min(item_weight * 0.33, 2.0) * 0.15. This means that the maximum weight for this calculation is 6. This results in the knockdown chance being 0.0495 * item_weight, meaing 4.95% chance of knockdown per item weight (this could be rounded to 5% like Paul did, but 0.33 isnt 1/3 for exact chance). This allows tabling some weights:

Weight 1.5 (Hammer, Club): 7.425%
Weight 2.5 (Flanged Mace, Iron Mace, Goedendag): 12.375%
Weight 3 (Warhammer, Long Hafterd Spiked Mace): 14.85%
Weight 4.5 (Long Iron Mace, Bar Mace: 22.275%
Weight 6 and above (every crushthrough weapon): 29.7%

The effect of damage is a multiplier to this chance, min((raw_damage - 20.0) * 0.5, 10.0). At 40 or more raw damage the multiplier is it's maximum (10), resulting in our assumed values above. Attacks below 20 raw damage cause the multiplier to be 0, meaning 0% chance of knockdown. Between 20 and 40 raw damage each point of raw damage increases the multiplier by 0.05. This means that the knockdown chance calculated above goes down by 5% per point of raw damage below 40 (for example 38 damage attack with a warhammer means 14.85% * 0.9 = 13.365% chance of knockdown). As said above though, in most practical cases most of these weapons will deal at least 40 raw damage with a decent hit, so that part of the equation is fairly meaningless.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Panos on June 08, 2013, 02:50:18 pm
Cheers moncho!

Solves a lot of my questions
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: bavvoz on June 08, 2013, 03:00:31 pm
I never said 1h weapons are op, I just find it irritating how a dude with a 70 cm weapon and 12 str can knock me down easier than a polearmer with 9 ps.

At least make knockdown chance STR based, and not based on luck

Sry guess it was a reflex from me on how many in this community overuse the word "op".
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Tibe on June 08, 2013, 03:07:44 pm
Yep. All in your mind. Code never lies.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Latvian on June 08, 2013, 03:08:31 pm
still kinda silly to get knocked down by peasant with stick while i am high strenght character with superheavy armor :(
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Gravoth_iii on June 08, 2013, 03:30:53 pm
Any knockdown weapon has 100% knockdown when fighting me. The time spent knocked down should be decreased, so that you can get up in time to block the next attack but stuck in place enough for the enemy to follow up with a kick if planned out correctly.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Sagar on June 08, 2013, 03:56:14 pm
still kinda silly to get knocked down by peasant with stick while i am high strenght character with superheavy armor :(

Good point.

Strength - oriented builds (in heavy armor) should not be knockdown so easily - especially with 1H weapons.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Crob28 on June 08, 2013, 04:02:17 pm
1handers often hit the head, increasing the raw damage of the swing and making knockdown more likely.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Leesin on June 08, 2013, 04:12:23 pm
I think the most puzzling bit about it all is why some 1h mace are 2.5 weight yet a long hafted spiked mace is 3 weight, with only roughly a 2% more chance to knock down according to those calcuations.

 Surely a large piece of thick hard wood with a big lump of metal on the end is going to be more than just 0.5 heavier than a little 1h mace?. I think that's why I stopped using it in the end, the 1h maces seemed to knock down just as much, if not even more than my long hafted spiked mace, because the fact 1h weapons have an easier time hitting the head, amplifying the damage and increasing the knock down chance?. Considering Long Hafted Spiked mace is double the length than the Iron Mace, with a huge lump of metal on the end, just 91 speed and the Unbalanced trait, doesn't it deserve more than a 2% advantage over a 1h mace where knockdown is concerned?. Buff LHSM weight for increased knockdown chance! (thread hijacked )
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: wayyyyyne on June 08, 2013, 04:16:07 pm
knockdown is strength based (not solely though) and the damage increase you get by hitting someone's head is only 10% for melee weapons
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: karasu on June 08, 2013, 04:30:45 pm
Nothing like blocking those blunt weapons and giving more focus on them when encountering multiple enemies. After all, they are by definition slow and short weapons.  :D
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Grumbs on June 08, 2013, 04:51:03 pm
Its much easier to get hit by a 1 hander than a pole, especially when 1 handers have shields. Thats the main point that makes it seem to knockdown more frequently - they just get more hits in and so the chance to proc in a fight is higher. 1 knockdown is a death sentence too, means at least 1 hit when down by nearby enemies + the usual kick that follows leading into more hits
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Panos on June 08, 2013, 04:56:48 pm
I wouldnt mind a small speed buff and damage, over the removal off the knockdown in 1h`s.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Normanguy on June 08, 2013, 05:06:03 pm
Same thing with me.

12 powerstrike 2 h great mauler and one handers get better knock down than my backswing and overhead it isn't right when thry hace 5-6 ps max lol
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Moncho on June 08, 2013, 05:36:23 pm
still kinda silly to get knocked down by peasant with stick while i am high strenght character with superheavy armor :(

A stick has 14 blunt damage, which requires either extremely good speed bonus or 6PS to reach the 20 damage treshold. If he has under 100wpf (a peasant does), it is even harder. So either he is good, you ran into his swing, or he is not a real peasant (or a combination of some), and this should be fine imo.
Armour does hardly anything vs blunt, since the hit will dent it, instead of trying to cut through it, so it will not really affect it.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Mammonist on June 08, 2013, 06:13:27 pm
and also don't take that peasant's only chance of survival away  :(
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Rumblood on June 08, 2013, 06:14:32 pm
Good point.

Strength - oriented builds (in heavy armor) should not be knockdown so easily - especially with 1H weapons.

They also shouldn't be able to run around like Usain Bolt while never getting tired. All that meat takes a lot of oxygen and tires under load very quickly. Watch some MMA fights to see what I mean. If you've got a huge muscle bound strength focus guy fighting against a slimmer agile submission guy, unless the beefcake wins in the first few minutes, he quickly tires and is then overpowered by the initially weaker opponent who has more stamina due to needing less oxygen to fuel all those muscles.

I mean, while we are talking realism and all.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Mammonist on June 08, 2013, 06:25:34 pm
DISCLAIMER: i dunno what the fuck im talking about

If we can go off-topic: I would like to see some kind of stamina system, for example:

- Stamina bar > Something like this could either work or it could fuck up the game majorly

edit: I just realised what this may do to weapons like the katana  :cry:
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Jarold on June 08, 2013, 06:34:06 pm
Day 342, Panos still wants to nerf every class, archers are targeting him more.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Panos on June 08, 2013, 06:58:30 pm
I`m not asking for a nerf, I`m asking for a really logical things. Make the knockdown chance, STR based, and not LUCK based.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: wayyyyyne on June 08, 2013, 07:00:08 pm
It IS strength based. The raw damage in the formula is the damage you deal with your PS and WPF taken into account but without the enemy armor
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Kafein on June 08, 2013, 07:02:51 pm
Its much easier to get hit by a 1 hander than a pole, especially when 1 handers have shields. Thats the main point that makes it seem to knockdown more frequently - they just get more hits in and so the chance to proc in a fight is higher. 1 knockdown is a death sentence too, means at least 1 hit when down by nearby enemies + the usual kick that follows leading into more hits

It's much easier to get hit and not die by a 1h over a polearm. Polearms being longer and easy to hiltslash with, one must really be weak to 1h animations specifically to be hit more frequently by them over equally skilled polearmers. One knockdown is often a death sentence, although STR meatsacks can survive a complete knockdown/kick combo twice (three times for butan) and getting a knockdown when you are fighting alone against two players isn't very useful either. Going for the kick combo makes the hammer user very vulnerable, you can only do it when there's nobody too close. My point is, 1h are the ones that benefit from knockdown the most due to their damage values being so low, they always have to land many weak hits.

Also side swinging a great maul like a madman in siege works wonders because omg dat knockdown.

Make the knockdown chance, STR based, and not LUCK based.

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Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Grumbs on June 08, 2013, 07:05:45 pm
I find it harder to defend against 1 hand left swing and overhead than any polearm attack personally. Also you don't have to worry about attack direction so much as a shielder, and you can attack straight after a block without so much delay as when weapon stunned

Derp img is kind of cheap too, leave Panos alone!. There is always an element of luck involved with knockdown afaik. It goes up to 30% or so? Well unless its either 0% or 100% chance to proc it is full of randomness
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Kafein on June 08, 2013, 07:21:28 pm
I find it harder to defend against 1 hand left swing and overhead than any polearm attack personally. Also you don't have to worry about attack direction so much as a shielder, and you can attack straight after a block without so much delay as when weapon stunned

I guess animations are a subjective thing (as well as the difficulty of blocking in the right direction after three years) but attacking straight after a block is the number one error of all beginner shielders, when faced with a good player at least. It very often leads to being kicked, outreached, outspammed or caught with your pants down because you didn't see the stun (you can be blockstunned with a shield, and there's no way to tell it happened).

Derp img is kind of cheap too, leave Panos alone!. There is always an element of luck involved with knockdown afaik. It goes up to 30% or so? Well unless its either 0% or 100% chance to proc it is full of randomness

True, I understand what he said but his sentence sounded funny to me.

Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Grumbs on June 08, 2013, 07:28:35 pm
Whether you can attack straight after a block is just another string to your bow. You don't have to attack so soon but being able to helps

Its not just a case of being able to right block, its when its mixed in with feints and overheads it gets awkward with how fast the attack animations hit
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on June 08, 2013, 08:52:52 pm
military hammer 100% knock down
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Clockworkkiller on June 08, 2013, 09:26:08 pm
If the dev's even THINK of removing knockdown from my beloved warhammer, well, bitches will die
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Moncho on June 09, 2013, 12:01:18 am
love seeing the upvotes for quoting an almost 2 year old post that I did not even read :D
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Michael on June 10, 2013, 07:07:09 pm
Knockdown is only a problem when you cant block.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Jarold on June 11, 2013, 02:25:59 am
Knockdown is only a problem when you cant block.

Thank you for enlightening us Michael on how if you don't get hit with a weapon you won't get knockdown! Thanks, now I will put a shield on my back to stop the knockdowns from behind!

Anyways, don't nerf one hand knockdown it's the only thing we have.....besides nudge.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: San on June 11, 2013, 02:39:31 am
I would be for decreasing the base chance of knockdown on a regular swing while increasing that chance for proper holds. It makes it so 1h spam shouldn't knockdown as often, but skillfully placed swings get duly rewarded. This factor also makes it feel less random.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Rebelyell on June 11, 2013, 04:42:45 am
1h maces are fast with good dmg and balanced
military hammer is super OP and all of that weapons need or unbalanced tag or no knockdown, 1h maces knockdown to much

anyway it is possible to make knockdown possible only after hold?

Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: San on June 11, 2013, 08:40:05 am
I was thinking that they could do a similar treatment to knockdown for what they did with mauls.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Kafein on June 11, 2013, 11:52:27 am
1h maces are fast with good dmg and balanced
military hammer is super OP and all of that weapons need or unbalanced tag or no knockdown, 1h maces knockdown to much

anyway it is possible to make knockdown possible only after hold?

The barmace and equivalents or the poleaxe secondary are just as "OP", only less common because there are 2h and pole alternatives that offer similar damage potential as the knockdown weapons, unlike with 1h.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Rebelyell on June 11, 2013, 12:28:32 pm
poleaxe is difrent story, probably best weapon in game, but blunt dmg is kind of low and weapon after all is slowe, barmace is kind of op (2,3 hit almost everyone with 24 str)
but have shity  lenght to speed ratio

whole problem with blunt weapons in game is that knockdown is random after all and Random... in skill based game

I lowe to see knockdown only after holds , maybe leave mauls like they are now
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Kafein on June 11, 2013, 03:28:00 pm
poleaxe is difrent story, probably best weapon in game, but blunt dmg is kind of low and weapon after all is slowe, barmace is kind of op (2,3 hit almost everyone with 24 str)
but have shity  lenght to speed ratio

whole problem with blunt weapons in game is that knockdown is random after all and Random... in skill based game

I lowe to see knockdown only after holds , maybe leave mauls like they are now

Yeah honestly I'd also like knockdown to be less random, but nerfing it right now would be equivalent to a blanket 1h nerf, which isn't needed (btw one could just buff the damage to balance a knockdown nerf). Maybe holds and/or hitting specific bones (like, only legs or only head or only head and legs) would work.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Jarlek on June 11, 2013, 05:36:16 pm
military hammer is super OP
Military hammer really is super OP.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Kafein on June 11, 2013, 08:25:05 pm
Military hammer really is super OP.
(click to show/hide)

...and the baseball bat is one of the worst 2h with knockdown
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Phew on June 11, 2013, 08:50:11 pm
...and the baseball bat is one of the worst 2h with knockdown

Does studded warclub use the 2h thrust animation?
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Memento_Mori on June 11, 2013, 09:00:59 pm
Does studded warclub use the 2h thrust animation?

It uses pole

Goedendag uses 2h idk if it can knockdown though but it's like 117 length or something ridiculous lol.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Phew on June 11, 2013, 09:02:33 pm
It uses pole

Goedendag uses 2h idk if it can knockdown though but it's like 117 length or something ridiculous lol.

AH. Knockdown lolstabs would be a hoot. I don't know why more people don't use the goat-tag. Fast, long, can lolstob, knockdown, etc.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Memento_Mori on June 11, 2013, 09:09:06 pm
AH. Knockdown lolstabs would be a hoot. I don't know why more people don't use the goat-tag. Fast, long, can lolstob, knockdown, etc.

had to check the shop it does pierce on stabs ! :( no lolstab knockdowns lol


and if I had to make a guess as to why it's not used that often it'd be because of it's low-low base dmg, even lower than the warclub means that a high cut weapon will out do it (if you're not a wimp and have like 6-7ps) the majority of the time in damage as well as having the bonuses the cut weapon may have (faster speed, shield breaking, more damage on stab, length, less weight)
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Phew on June 11, 2013, 09:13:54 pm
and if I had to make a guess as to why it's not used that often it'd be because of it's low-low base dmg, even lower than the warclub means that a high cut weapon will out do it (if you're not a wimp and have like 6-7ps) the majority of the time in damage as well as having the bonuses the cut weapon may have (faster speed, shield breaking, more damage on stab, length, less weight)

+3 Goat-tags kill me in 3 swings, just like +3 longswords. And they are way longer and have knockdown. I think it's just the ugly model that deters people.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Malaclypse on June 11, 2013, 09:48:43 pm
The stab on it can't knockdown, it's pierce. Probably the most fun/unique 1h out there though. 117 reach base right swings.
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Kafein on June 11, 2013, 09:52:39 pm
Yeah goedendag + shield is really really weird, no wonder the flemish invented it.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Decrease or even better remove the chance of knockdown of 1h blunt weapons
Post by: Jarlek on June 11, 2013, 11:43:57 pm
...and the baseball bat is one of the worst 2h with knockdown
I know right.

Yet it's clearly the military hammer that is the "op" one.

Some people are so biased it hurts.