cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Leshma on January 20, 2013, 04:52:35 pm

Title: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Leshma on January 20, 2013, 04:52:35 pm
Bet you don't have the balls to change it :D
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: TurmoilTom on January 20, 2013, 05:33:24 pm
Why? Making the Steel Pick 13 strength would literally do nothing except fuck over Kinngrimm.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Falka on January 20, 2013, 05:41:42 pm
Why? Making the Steel Pick 13 strength would literally do nothing except fuck over Kinngrimm.

And that's the point  :wink:
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Leshma on January 20, 2013, 05:57:30 pm
Why? Making the Steel Pick 13 strength would literally do nothing except fuck over Kinngrimm.

Well yeah. But if you look closely at 1H item stats, you'll notice that Military pick has 13 str requirement, just like most high level blunt/pierce 1H weapons.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: rustyspoon on January 20, 2013, 10:22:40 pm
The stats on the steel pick are fine.

The real problem is the discrepancy between cut and pierce/blunt damage in this game.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Kafein on January 20, 2013, 10:55:49 pm
The stats on the steel pick are fine.

The real problem is the discrepancy between cut and pierce/blunt damage in this game.

This.

Pierce and blunt 1h are becoming more and more popular because 1h swords are utter shite when you have to deal with 70 armor and 70HP monsters with shieldbreaking + knockdown weapons that twoshot you, stun your shield or weapon on every other hit, can hit faster in the animation and hit everything in a 3 meters wide circle around them.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 20, 2013, 10:55:59 pm
It should be at 13 strength requirement...swords that are 1 weight are 13 strength...same with other 2 weight blunt/heavy (axe) weapons.  Why wouldn't a weapon that weighs twice as much as my knightly arming sword be the same strength requirement
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Rebelyell on January 21, 2013, 01:37:57 am
Bet you don't have the balls to change it :D

kingrimhater
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Leshma on January 21, 2013, 01:12:48 pm
Don't like powerlamers.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Piok on January 21, 2013, 01:26:05 pm
What is fine on steel pick stats? It do more damage than 2h ultraslow  englishbill.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: rustyspoon on January 21, 2013, 02:19:50 pm
What is fine on steel pick stats? It do more damage than 2h ultraslow  englishbill.

Even though the english bill isn't a 2-hander...here we go:


Also you're comparing apples to oranges a bit. The english bill is a support weapon. If I was backing up other players, I'd much rather have the english bill. Spamming overheads with that thing while backing up your teammates can be pretty handy. Unfortunately the swiss halberd does a much better job. The swiss halberd has more utility due to it's ability to break shields and it's higher initial damage means it will get a larger bonus on overheads. Using the steel pick you have to get so close that it makes it difficult for your team to support you.

Really I just think that the internal weapon balance of 2h and poles is just not nearly as good as 1h when you look at their individual lists.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Phew on January 21, 2013, 06:13:56 pm
Steel pick/warhammer seem so awesome on paper. In reality, you spend all your time getting teamwounded, chasing backpedalers, and being kicked.

1h internal balance is indeed very good. Most decent players will perform about the same with any non-peasant 1h.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Iymore on January 21, 2013, 06:50:40 pm
make it 9
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 21, 2013, 07:53:23 pm
Steel pick/warhammer seem so awesome on paper. In reality, you spend all your time getting teamwounded, chasing backpedalers, and being kicked.

1h internal balance is indeed very good. Most decent players will perform about the same with any non-peasant 1h.
If you get kicked learn to use footwork and jumping, even with a rondel dagger it's your own damn fault if you get kicked.

Also, internal 1h balance isn't all that great.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Kelugarn on January 22, 2013, 12:52:45 am
The stats on the steel pick are fine.

The real problem is the discrepancy between cut and pierce/blunt damage in this game.

Pierce and blunt are supposed to be what you use against heavily armored targets though.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Kafein on January 22, 2013, 01:25:32 am
Pierce and blunt are supposed to be what you use against heavily armored targets though.

I don't see any GS or glaive hero pulling out a blunt or pierce weapon when they are fighting a tincan.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Leshma on January 22, 2013, 02:06:43 am
Because GS or Glaive are already too damn expensive to carry a sidearm with them. Also extra weight means impaired S key ability which is crucial component of every twohander's skill.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: rustyspoon on January 22, 2013, 04:24:59 am
Pierce and blunt are supposed to be what you use against heavily armored targets though.

Except we're talking about CRPG here. Unless you only fight naked people, blunt/pierce is a dramatically better damage type than cut.

Cut weapons get hit hard by any type of armor. Even at only 20 armor, there's a significant difference between cut and pierce/blunt.

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I wish the damage system was redone where each damage type was great against one tier of armor, decent against another tier and terrible against one tier. It would increase weapon diversity and also get away from the "1 type fits all" approach that we have now.

So for example just so you can see what I'm talking about:

Cut - great against light armor, decent against medium, terrible against plate
Pierce - terrible against light, great against medium, decent against plate
Blunt - decent against light, terrible against medium, great against plate

Anyway, something that requires some type of decision other than: "I want my weapon to be long, fast and weak" or "I want my weapon to do a fuck-ton of damage to anyone."
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Piok on January 22, 2013, 11:15:18 am
Still pick is so balanced.
Invisible weapon of spamitar speed and punch as becdeOP which could be used by ultraagiwhores with ultrahigh shield skill.
Kinngrim could easily kill balanced build in higher tier armor(rus lammelar + bascinet) with 3hits with 4ps. Something that 4ps agiwhore with katana can only dream of not to mention omnipotent forcefield.
How many hits it will take for balanced build wit 6 or 7 PS to take down anyone with steelpick?
Be glad Muricans that peoples on NA does not discovered OPiness of SteelPick yet.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Kafein on January 22, 2013, 03:54:04 pm
Because GS or Glaive are already too damn expensive to carry a sidearm with them. Also extra weight means impaired S key ability which is crucial component of every twohander's skill.

Nice trolling.

Also price doesn't matter. It is a simple fact that high cut weapons with typical 2h/pole str builds inflict more than enough damage to deal with any kind of armor effectively.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Tomas on January 22, 2013, 04:19:58 pm
The problem is that cut weapons are arbitrarily given much higher base damage in order to make them higher damage against naked peasants but this then negates a lot of the difference between the 2 against heavier armour.

Compare the Fighting Pick against the One Handed Battle Axe.

Both weigh 1.5, have similar lengths (80vs76) and have a similar mass distribution (wooden handle, metal head).  Theoretically therefore they should be swung by the with the same force yet the the fighting Pick does just 24 pierce whilst the axe does 34 Cut.

Average damage (at 6PS, 130wpf) vs the various armour ratings is as follows

Armour: Pick: Axe
0: 41: 56
10: 35: 47
20: 29: 38
30: 24: 31
40: 19: 24
50: 14: 18
60: 10: 13
70: 8: 9
80: 6: 8

So despite being pretty much the same weapon but with a different head (supposedly for different situations) the One Handed Battle Axe is clearly the better weapon all round.

cRPG weapons will never be balanced whilst stats are decided on an arbitrary basis and according to whim.  There needs to be a systematic method of assigning damage and speeds to weapons based on their physical characteristics (weight, length and center of gravity).  Once that's done you can either keep the current system but give cut weapons a % damage boost to make them better vs naked peasants or you can come up with new formulas to add the variation between the damage types.  Only then will you have a balanced system though.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Leshma on January 22, 2013, 04:49:56 pm
This isn't about pierce vs cut vs blunt damage type. It's about the fact that Steel Pick has lower requirement than Military Pick and I don't see a reason for it.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Freland on January 22, 2013, 05:06:03 pm

Compare the Fighting Pick against the One Handed Battle Axe.

One costs 1500 gold and nobody uses it and the other costs 6000 gold. I mean come on you couldn't have picked worse weapons to compare. I am really looking forward t your comparison between the 2h Pratice Sword and the Danish Greatsword.
Sorry for derailing this further, Leshma
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Kafein on January 22, 2013, 05:22:35 pm
This isn't about pierce vs cut vs blunt damage type. It's about the fact that Steel Pick has lower requirement than Military Pick and I don't see a reason for it.

1. The military pick is longer (and iirc heavier)
2. The military pick is a better weapon (see 1.)
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Leshma on January 22, 2013, 05:26:57 pm
Military pick is 70 length, while Steel Pick is 64. Despite that, they are both of the same weight (2). I disagree that Military pick is better weapons, 2 pierce damage less isn't worth those extra 6 length. Both weapons are short anyway.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Falka on January 22, 2013, 05:45:09 pm
The problem is that cut weapons are arbitrarily given much higher base damage in order to make them higher damage against naked peasants but this then negates a lot of the difference between the 2 against heavier armour.

Compare the Fighting Pick against the One Handed Battle Axe.
(click to show/hide)

It's true when you compare those 2 weapons. But compare steel pick with any 1h sword except mil cleaver. "cut weapons are given arbitrarily much higher base damage"? Really? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: San on January 22, 2013, 06:17:22 pm
Be glad Muricans that peoples on NA does not discovered OPiness of SteelPick yet.

I lol'd. All the steel pick users moved on for a reason.

1h cut weapons just need to be buffed. The base levels are too low for any practical use unless you have a masterwork 1h. You barely see 28-30 cut on peasant 2h/poles. Buffing 1h cut by a few points won't increase damage that much, but it will drastically reduce the glance, but stun hits.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Falka on January 22, 2013, 06:24:56 pm
1h cut weapons just need to be buffed. The base levels are too low for any practical use unless you have a masterwork 1h. You barely see 28-30 cut on peasant 2h/poles. Buffing 1h cut by a few points won't increase damage that much, but it will drastically reduce the glance, but stun hits.
Yup, buff my 9 PS 1h build with MW arabian (36 dmg - plain HBS has the same dmg)  :?
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Piok on January 22, 2013, 06:35:13 pm
Go away with constant buffing of 1h. Only monstrosity like steelpick need some adjusting.
But must agree with some people that 2h buff was unnecessary.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: San on January 22, 2013, 06:45:51 pm
Yup, buff my 9 PS 1h build with MW arabian (36 dmg - plain HBS has the same dmg)  :?

I'm talking about 1hs with already low cut damage: 26-30, +2, maybe +1 for the higher weaps to keep internal balance. A lot of the pierce/blunt need to be slightly weakened. Below 28 pierce/blunt gets into the crappy territory for such short weapons, though.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Phew on January 22, 2013, 06:46:53 pm
1h stats are pretty balanced, but the animation sweet spots need some work. 1h right swing has a massive delay (balanced with the reach bonus), but the fact that it glances during the first 50% of the animation makes it only useful against unaware people. And 1h thrust is a dumpster fire of fail.

It must be a EU thing, because the 12 Str steel pick spammer isn't exactly the scourge of NA. You see them sometimes, but they are one-hit by any 2h weapon, and everyone just backpedals/kicks them. When a 1h is wrecking the NA siege server (only one I play), it's usually with a cut weapon.

I used a +3 Steel Pick for at least a generation, and I have had better success with nearly every other +3 1h weapon I have tried (KAS, Grosse Messer, Military Hammer, Military Cleaver, 1h Battle Axe).
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Phew on January 22, 2013, 06:49:32 pm
I'm talking about 1hs with already low cut damage: 26-30, +2, maybe +1 for the higher weaps to keep internal balance. A lot of the pierce/blunt need to be slightly weakened. Below 28 pierce/blunt gets into the crappy territory for such short weapons, though.

The turn speed changes on the test server favor 1h swords over maces/picks/hammers, especially the shorter swords. It's why I traded for a Grosse Messer; it will have turn rates close to native.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: San on January 22, 2013, 06:49:51 pm
If sweetspots are fixed, I don't think the 1h stats need to change at all. Left swing barely even has a lack of sweetspot while right swing's just sucks. I disagree with steel pick performing worse, performs around the same.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Falka on January 22, 2013, 07:07:37 pm
I'm talking about 1hs with already low cut damage: 26-30, +2, maybe +1 for the higher weaps to keep internal balance.

Yup, while almost all expensive 1h swords are viable weapons, cheap 1h mostly suck  :?
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Phew on January 22, 2013, 07:11:48 pm
If sweetspots are fixed, I don't think the 1h stats need to change at all. Left swing barely even has a lack of sweetspot while right swing's just sucks. I disagree with steel pick performing worse, performs around the same.

Yeah, I try a few thrusts every round just for giggles, and I swear even perfectly timed thrusts glance most of the time (usually from being too close). You have like 20% of the animation to hit without glancing, which is hard to pull off. Meanwhile, left swing has such a huge sweet spot, I'm always teamwounding people at my 8 o'clock. I'd gladly trade some left swing sweet spot for right swing and thrust sweet spot.

Steel pick was my first 1h gen, so I can probably attribute my suckage to being a novice. I also had a 21/15 build, which isn't ideal with steel pick. I'd try one again now, but I think they look silly. That and I would hate having zero chance against agility builds with longer weapons. A 1h sword gives you a chance in every type of encounter.

Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on January 23, 2013, 12:53:40 pm
I went 1h-hero last gen (well kinda, had 130 1h and 75 2h so I could use both modes on a langes messer and clutch with MW HBS on the ground if I need) and I found 1h to be absolutely shit-kickingly brutal. Had a Mw knightly arming and it really didn't glance much and I could do better than a dedicated 2h or pole, I feel. That being said, how many people on NA are pure 1h? San on his alt, me again in the future, and....bobthehero who hasn't played in ages. Yeah. Nobody will stop using the HBS/Glaive long enough to realize that they can be almost as effective while looking cooler and getting 10x the respect.

However, the lower-tier cut weapons, especially the moslem-style ones (which I would never use anyway) are quite shite. So bad that nobody will even think about using them to save money.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Kafein on January 23, 2013, 02:16:46 pm
Yup, while almost all expensive 1h swords are viable weapons, cheap 1h mostly suck  :?

So the long espada, the most expensive 1h, is cheap ? wtf
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Phew on January 23, 2013, 02:28:47 pm
That being said, how many people on NA are pure 1h? San on his alt, me again in the future, and....bobthehero who hasn't played in ages. Yeah. Nobody will stop using the HBS/Glaive long enough to realize that they can be almost as effective while looking cooler and getting 10x the respect.

Maduin has been a pure swashbuckler with a +3 KAS for several months now. He routinely tops the scoreboard on NA Siege.

And Horns has been going Rondel-only for a while and strangely doing very well. I'd say Rondel needs a nerf more than Steel Pick. About the same damage, but with 15 (!) more speed.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Falka on January 23, 2013, 04:50:28 pm
So the long espada, the most expensive 1h, is cheap ? wtf

Let me quote myself:
almost all expensive 1h swords are viable weapons, cheap 1h mostly suck

Reading problems?  :wink: Moreover, long espada is fine  :wink:
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 23, 2013, 04:59:07 pm
It's true when you compare those 2 weapons. But compare steel pick with any 1h sword except mil cleaver. "cut weapons are given arbitrarily much higher base damage"? Really? :rolleyes:
This times a million, looked through the 1h weaponry, there are a total of 2 1h straight swords that have an amazing amount known as 1 damage more than the steel pick, and one (italian falchion) which got the outrageous amount that goes by the name of 2 more damage than the steel pick, and that is when you forget that it is cut...
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Kafein on January 23, 2013, 06:58:25 pm
Let me quote myself:
Reading problems?  :wink: Moreover, long espada is fine  :wink:

On EU_1, maybe. Idk. The cut is still crap.

Even if you you got plenty of effective wpf (which implies low armor) and a healthy amount of PS, 1h straight swords with good stab damage need a fuckload of hits to kill with swings. On the other hand, 1h straight swords with weak stabs (ACS, NCS...) have good swings but the stab is a purely useless suicide button. Cheap 1h include the military hammer, liuyedao, military cleaver, military pick, italian falchion, the axes and even the italian sword if you consider it cheap. All in all 1h are very well balanced internally. The steel pick does a lot of damage but 64 length simply isn't worth it.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 23, 2013, 07:32:48 pm
Steel pick is the best 1h weapon for sieges...not so much for battle.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Phew on January 23, 2013, 08:13:06 pm
This times a million, looked through the 1h weaponry, there are a total of 2 1h straight swords that have an amazing amount known as 1 damage more than the steel pick, and one (italian falchion) which got the outrageous amount that goes by the name of 2 more damage than the steel pick, and that is when you forget that it is cut...

I found archerbud AFK yesterday. He's probably something like a 24/15 build, wearing a Sallet with Visor (+coif maybe?), possibly loomed, so somewhere between 57-63 head armor. I use a +3 Grosse Messer, so 36 cut. Definitely on the high end of cut damage for 1h. I have 6 Power strike, 130ish wpf. I opened with a held swing to the head, with full speed bonus. It then took at least 6 more swings to the head to kill him. So 7 total swings to the head.

I can't imagine the agony of playing with an unloomed 1h sword. It must take 10+ swing to kill anyone. If someone really hates 1h pierce/blunt weapons, perhaps they should lobby for 1h swords to get a bit of a buff? I enjoy playing with 1h swords, but they are totally harmless to anyone with at least loomed medium armor. We're not even talking plate here.

Steel pick does about the same damage as a 2h sword, with less than half the reach. I don't see how that's a problem.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 23, 2013, 08:27:41 pm
Not a big fan of the glancing with 1h's, but I think the swords are about right for internal 1h balance.  You can get long and fast swords, the only down side is they do cut damage and usually relatively low.  Or you can get a slower/shorter weapon (sometimes both) and deal a lot more damage. 

I personally always chose the sword over a shorter pierce/blunt weapon just because if I hit the enemy with my sword (it may take 2 hits to do the damage of a pick), at least he's not hitting me.  It's nice for keeping enemies from getting in too close.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Phew on January 23, 2013, 09:19:51 pm
I personally always chose the sword over a shorter pierce/blunt weapon just because if I hit the enemy with my sword (it may take 2 hits to do the damage of a pick), at least he's not hitting me.  It's nice for keeping enemies from getting in too close.

I agree. I think I like 1h swords because while your ceiling is lower (you won't be 1-shotting anyone), your floor is higher (you won't spend many fights whiffing at air like with a steel pick against an agility build). Having to hit some guy in plate 10 times to kill him is annoying, but still satisfying if you pull it off. Getting s-keyed to death by an Agi glaiver because you can't get within range makes anyone want to throw their keyboard through a window.

I think that's what keeps the steel pick balanced. You can pull off some amazing feats (2-shotting people), but there are certain fights where you don't even have a chance (duel-type situations against Agi builds, maulers, skilled kickers, throwing kiters, etc). Good players can use the steel pick and learn to avoid those situations, but I don't have the discipline to run away from the mauler or ninja; I have to test my mettle.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Teeth on January 26, 2013, 04:13:59 pm
The real problem is the discrepancy between cut and pierce/blunt damage in this game.
:shock:

That is a problem? It is already way too easy to just run around with your Danish 'can do it all' or your Nordic 'can do it all'. Cut weapons are usually long and fast, and now it's a problem that they can't deal as much damage to armour as pierce or blunt? About 90% of the 2h and 80% of the 1h use a cut weapon on EU and we armour crutch a lot more than NA. They still do way too much damage to armour in my opinion, because barely anyone thinks that going for low reach with blunt or pierce is worth it.

The difference between cut and blunt/pierce's damage too armour should be increased if anything, in my opinion.

Unfortunately the swiss halberd does a much better job. The swiss halberd has more utility due to it's ability to break shields and it's higher initial damage means it will get a larger bonus on overheads.
Here you even state that 38 cut (Swiss Halberd) is better than 31 pierce (English Bill). Yeah, cut really needs a buff against armour  :|
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Gurnisson on January 26, 2013, 04:40:33 pm
but there are certain fights where you don't even have a chance (duel-type situations against Agi builds, maulers, skilled kickers, throwing kiters, etc)

 :lol: :lol: :lol:

Beating a mauler with a pick is piss easy.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Phew on January 26, 2013, 06:00:08 pm
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Beating a mauler with a pick is piss easy.

Maybe on battle. Try it in a narrow corridor or ladder on siege.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Kafein on January 26, 2013, 08:42:14 pm
:shock:

That is a problem? It is already way too easy to just run around with your Danish 'can do it all' or your Nordic 'can do it all'. Cut weapons are usually long and fast, and now it's a problem that they can't deal as much damage to armour as pierce or blunt?

There's a problem. Cut on 2h swords is simply too good because 2h animations makes glancing a non-issue and the high PS of dedicated builds + the high base damage of 2h (even the HBS) is plenty enough for the multiplicative effect of PS to really make a difference. With 1h swords, it's the other way around. Even with high PS you won't get many additional damage points, right swings are extremely prone to early glancing (left swings are prone to missing entirely because your enemy sidestepped to the left). A 1h build with 6PS and 80 effective wpf with a MW KAS is right under the sweetspot to start doing serious damage to heavy armor on normal swings. The difference between 1h cut and blunt/pierce is like night and day.


About 90% of the 2h and 80% of the 1h use a cut weapon on EU and we armour crutch a lot more than NA.

At least on EU_2, 1h swords have been very quickly decreasing in popularity.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Gurnisson on January 27, 2013, 01:56:38 am
Maybe on battle. Try it in a narrow corridor or ladder on siege.

Still don't see any problem...
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Teeth on January 27, 2013, 10:01:33 pm
At least on EU_2, 1h swords have been very quickly decreasing in popularity.
Yeah, I was talking about battle. Reach is barely an advantage on siege, so obviously the blunt/pierce is more popular there. On battle though, it's all swords because the reach is such a big deal.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Phew on January 28, 2013, 01:10:06 am
Still don't see any problem...

I do...how do you make up for a 18cm reach disadvantage (maul overhead vs. steel pick overhead or left swing) where you have no room to sidestep the overhead? Even a right swing (which has the same reach as maul overhead) at best gives you a 50/50 chance. Those gate control corridors don't allow ANY room to sidestep, so it's basically a test of who times their swing better, so its a coin flip. If you lose, you're knocked down or dead. Even if you win, the mauler can block and recover.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Berserkadin on January 31, 2013, 11:17:36 am
This isn't about pierce vs cut vs blunt damage type. It's about the fact that Steel Pick has lower requirement than Military Pick and I don't see a reason for it.
Fighting pick got 8 diff, stop talking out of your ass.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Gurnisson on January 31, 2013, 02:51:03 pm
Fighting pick got 8 diff, stop talking out of your ass.

Fighting Pick =\= Military Pick

Iberian Mace: 13
Warhammer: 15

Military Pick: 13
Steel Pick: 12

Always found that quite weird. :P
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Leshma on January 31, 2013, 03:14:16 pm
Fighting pick got 8 diff, stop talking out of your ass.

Fighting pick can be considered as something a peasant would use. It's not what I would call a good weapon (I know that because I used it for two gens).
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Tydeus on January 31, 2013, 04:32:59 pm
I hear this change got in for the next patch. It'll now have a 30 str requirement with a minimum of 12 agility as well. I believe they're titling the patch "Customization Removal" and so now you can only use certain weapons and armors if you have the right build. Oh yeah, blocking removed, and cleave implemented. No one is going to want to use a short pick with cleave in game.

QQ

*SPOILER* LOGIC INCOMING
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Leshma on January 31, 2013, 04:34:37 pm
Quote
Or, better yet, buff the cut 1hers so they have comparable/better damage on low-medium armored targets

Yeah, because 1h no shield is so UP :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Tydeus on January 31, 2013, 04:45:46 pm
Certainly 1h cut weapons with less than 90(and especially 80) length are vastly inferior to the 100+ length ones, the ones everyone uses in the duel server, the ones nearly every 1h no shield character uses.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Phew on January 31, 2013, 04:56:40 pm
Within 1h, the pierce/blunt weapons do more damage than the cut weapons to everyone. Yet within 2h/pole, high cut weapons do so much damage to everyone, that there isn't much incentive to take a pierce/blunt weapon for fighting high armor targets. For instance, right now a Great Long Axe (45 cut) does the same damage to 60 armor as a Bec (34 pierce). Why take the Bec when you can do more damage to everyone and break shields with the axe?

1h are being forced to use the pierce blunt weapons (and deal with the terrible reach) because 1h cut is so awful on loomed medium armor or higher. 2h doesn't have a care in the world, because their loomed greatsword does huge damage to everyone.

Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Paul on January 31, 2013, 04:57:38 pm
A MW pasta cutter (70 reach) is an excellent dueling weapon though.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Phew on January 31, 2013, 05:05:21 pm
A MW pasta cutter (70 reach) is an excellent dueling weapon though.

Put those turn rate changes on NA servers (especially siege) so we can see for ourselves the awesomeness of the pasta cutta.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Tydeus on January 31, 2013, 05:29:15 pm
I have been using the Italian Falchion lately, and it certainly is great against many opponents, but against an lhb or glaive or patient backpedaling greatsworder, you put yourself at a disadvantage. 35c is good, but it's still just cut damage. I think it's a better weapon in battle than in a duel, without a doubt.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: San on January 31, 2013, 05:44:07 pm
I don't think there's anything wrong with getting within the 32-34 base cut range for some of the shorter 1h swords, 30 cut base is way too weak and only usable when loomed. Even so, there's no reason not to use an axe instead for the shield breaking or a pick/hammer.

As far as the 13 str pick is concerned, the change is really only isolating a very low minority, implying that 12 strength steel pick is any better than 15 strength or what have you. The rondel does the pick's job even better, anyways, and works better as a sidearm. It's also shorter than many of those other weapons without much difference in weight.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on January 31, 2013, 07:23:45 pm
Not to be a huge derail, but lately my 34cut 1h at 7 ps has been taking 4-7 hits to kill an armored opponent. A pick 1-2. Just feels.....wrong, and boring to only be useful with one type.

Not to mention strat, but recently in a battle with 1h mw winged mace. Totally useless, topping scoreboard with no kills. Hit enemies on average 3-4, none died. What is making 1h so bad?
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Phew on January 31, 2013, 07:42:07 pm
What is making 1h so bad?

In a vacuum 1h hasn't really changed, but 2h has gotten so powerful that 1h feels pathetic now. Now you have all these 2h heroes running around with stats like this:

lvl 34
27/18
8 IF
9 PS
6 ATH
78 hit points
70 body armor
45 cut, 97 speed weapon (+3 Miaodao)

Your 34 cut, 7 PS might as well be a Wooden Stick to that guy. Meanwhile, he will probably one-shot you. So you take a pick/hammer, only to have this 2h hero blockkick you, then one-shot you again.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Turboflex on January 31, 2013, 09:21:32 pm
Lower base damage 1h weps (so especially 90-105 length swords) have been hardest hit by the continual increase in average armour levels (due to looming and more people being able to afford daily maintanance losses with loompoint sales).

The advantage is you can get valor really easily with these weps but it's not very satisfying  compared to actually killing people with a steel pick or warhammer.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Pentecost on January 31, 2013, 10:24:57 pm
The place where the weaknesses of 1h cut weapons compared to 1h pierce or blunt weapons really comes out for me is in major Strategus battles, where there will usually be a greater concentration of high level players (30+) in fully heirloomed equipment than in battle. I recently participated in several of them, and the difference between having a +1 or +3 fighting axe vs. having a +0 warhammer or +0 or +1 steel pick was very striking.

In the battle where I had a fighting axe, I had a less than 1:2 kdr. This was not because I fought exceptionally poorly (although it wasn't my best showing...) or because I was not used to the weapon, as I've done the equivalent of several generations with falchions and other short 1h weapons, but because I could hit the other player 5 times and not actually kill him. The worst part though? The enemy army wasn't even in plate. They were in heirloomed surcoats over mail. I can only imagine how much worse it would have been if they had been in churburgs or something.

In the battles where I had warhammers or picks available, I did significantly better. In all of the battles in question, I did better than 2:1 on kdr, and I almost went 4:1 on one of them. I don't think I played that much better or differently compared to the previous example I gave; rather, the main difference was just that I could drop an enemy in 3-4 good hits max instead of needing 6-8 hits from full health.

I'm not sure what, if anything, could be done about this though. Improving cut 1hs would invite complaints from people who only play the game modes where they are perfectly fine, such as normal battle, and doing something about the efficacy of heirloomed armor would also improve the position of 2h and polearm.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 31, 2013, 10:40:36 pm
Try fighting in a strategus 3 AI defense of a city who bought all cut 1h weapons and going up against DRZ in their heirloomed Druzhina elite lamellar armor...it was literally HORRIBLE.  Pierce/Blunt are absolutely a necessity in strategus sieges, but still important in battles (considering the high level players and loomed higher tier armor)
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: oprah_winfrey on January 31, 2013, 10:47:00 pm
If you use a steel pick in battle you are a bundle of sticks.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on February 02, 2013, 04:01:24 am
In a vacuum 1h hasn't really changed, but 2h has gotten so powerful that 1h feels pathetic now. Now you have all these 2h heroes running around with stats like this:

lvl 34
27/18
8 IF
9 PS
6 ATH
78 hit points
70 body armor
45 cut, 97 speed weapon (+3 Miaodao)

Your 34 cut, 7 PS might as well be a Wooden Stick to that guy. Meanwhile, he will probably one-shot you. So you take a pick/hammer, only to have this 2h hero blockkick you, then one-shot you again.

Ah, explains why I rarely duel. So how does the playing field get leveled with 1h builds? Lower shield skill requirements? I agree this is a strat only issue, no troubles in siege due to everyone and theur mother is not in 70+ armor. Perhaps strat is too wealthy? Maybe high tier equipment should be difficult to gather, battle fields privelidged to have some equipment. Maybe add equipment maimtenace costs in strat? Just feels like knight wars and not so men of war.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on February 02, 2013, 04:23:11 pm

Comparing a level 34 2h build to a level 30 1h isn't very fair, a 1h at that level would have  a comparably great build.

Also long 1h weapons probably have an advantage over 2h and pole in 1v1s or are atleast even, and that is the reason you choose cut over pierce as 1h since picks ect are pretty awful in 1v1s vs any one good. The cut weapons don't need a damage buff.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Phew on February 02, 2013, 05:08:58 pm
Comparing a level 34 2h build to a level 30 1h isn't very fair, a 1h at that level would have  a comparably great build.

Also long 1h weapons probably have an advantage over 2h and pole in 1v1s or are atleast even, and that is the reason you choose cut over pierce as 1h since picks ect are pretty awful in 1v1s vs any one good. The cut weapons don't need a damage buff.

Balb is like lvl 35, and I think he's 18/24. Thanks to shield weight and short weapons, 1h realize pretty quickly that they need to be faster than the 2h heroes they are fighting to have a chance. Except Turbo, dunno how he is so slow but still does so well. I tried 27/12 one gen, it was my worst shielder gen ever.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: San on February 03, 2013, 04:16:36 am
I dunno... I like the (good) axes the most in strat most of the time, and I do fairly well. Not unless the whole other team has full plate, but anything underneath is fair game. One can use the steel pick with 4ath without too much trouble, but it does take certain methods of play to get in close. That's why I disagree with the OP, the steel pick can be even better for STR builds anyways.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: kinngrimm on February 03, 2013, 06:21:01 am
Leshma FU!

also buff Sidesword!
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: TurmoilTom on February 03, 2013, 06:23:56 am
buff Sidesword!

This guy knows what's up.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Leshma on February 03, 2013, 01:05:06 pm
Leshma FU!

also buff Sidesword!

As some people already said, this will be even more deadlier in your hands.

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People can't see it :wink:

One more question, why you never tried Italian Falchion?
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: kinngrimm on February 03, 2013, 01:34:56 pm
As some people already said, this will be even more deadlier in your hands.

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People can't see it :wink:

One more question, why you never tried Italian Falchion?
i tried every 1h weapon, and retried them when there had been changes.
I don't use it because at that time when i choose to go for steel pick, i was badly pissed about the overnerving of Sidesword, but also saw it as a chance to rethink my strategy and tactics within the game and choose a complete different composition, the only thing which didn't change was that i more and more tended to agility based builts as i just liked the possibilities of them more then those of str based builts. Since then there had been several patches who changed the game dynamic, but nothing like the i believe it was .202 patch or .210 not sure. When basicly all my gear was nerved, well not my Leather gear ^^. With that then came also the big respec and well since then i haven't changed my gear, beside the awlpike, not with shield usable anymore and well through the slot system i couldn't carry along my Battleaxe. Overall i don't want always to have the hustle to change my gear, i am more conservative inflexiable in these ways. i am getting used to soemthing and when it works why would i change then. Others say it is boring, i say everyone is always changing because of looks, because it is new, ... but for me it only counts that i can kill stuff and that hopefully fast. That doesn't make the steel pick OP, but i gimped my build onto it and onto my flaws, like ... fuck blocking. If the Steel Pick would get nerved, i would carry another weapon and would need to get into the Lottery to afford a respec as with me closing in for lvl 36, i am not willing to spend another 1 1/2 years grinding the shit out of this game only to reach that level.

Also i get regularly killed by players, "because" of the stats of the steel pick. Folks on EU at least go more and more onto ath, and there we have the backpeddal spam you can't reach anymore easily, how about reducing 2h/polearms ath effectiveness by half, then i would also agree on Steel Pick 13 req.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Callan on February 04, 2013, 03:05:17 pm
Bet you don't have the balls to change it :D

Trying to fuck over one of the few people with a unique class/play style.

Good game Leshma, Good game.
Title: Re: Steel pick 13 str
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on February 04, 2013, 11:09:08 pm
Yeah, because 1h no shield is so UP :rolleyes:
Leshma, I know you're special in the head but fuck, you've played a 2h greatsworder for ages and gotten to level 35 with it... I personally believe blocking is easy enough for shields to not be worth it whatsoever but give me one good reason (unless your build is wrecked without 2-4 points some other place) for a 1h no shield to not put 2-4 points into shield. A steel pick is one of the best onehanders, it is still shit compared to the average 2h/pole, if I had to choose between a level 30 build of my choice with an unloomed german greatsword and Kinngrimms 35 probably mostly loomed 1h char for a battle with a real prize I'd take the german any day of the week.
Oh yeah, and from the few times I've seen Kinngrimm with his shield broken he's a far better player than you despite his slightly insecure blocking.

(this rant isn't directed at the particular quoted post, just read this and act like I bothered copypasting it whenever you write something)
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