cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Smoothrich on December 26, 2012, 10:37:02 am

Title: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Smoothrich on December 26, 2012, 10:37:02 am
I think people talk about how they are nostalgic for old cRPG and how now its just a nerfed Native port very often and it is pretty accurate. The dev team seems to idolize and respect some elements of game design that enable players to be creative and make their own game, basically creating the tools and handing them to the players and hoping them the best.  This is what Strategus essentially is, and what the old space game idea for P. Asinus sounded like.  Thing is, you guys basically had this going in old cRPG, and I've seen it creep up whenever opportunities for it were available in the game.  Yet devs have gone out of their way to find these and completely remove them whenever possible, much to the detriment of the game and its appeal. 

Battle is pretty boring now but it used to be a ghetto sandbox to do all sorts of memorable, awesome shit in. Ladderpaulting (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgqMnNJzHrI), ridiculous builds, comical amounts of plate, awesome weapons, the dynamically hilarious metagame of peasants hiding in areas of a map so when you broke through the front lines in full plate you got to find a hut teeming with cowering peasants and slaughter them all.

Since then they just slowly turned it into a Native port with nerfed everything.  Playing on Battle is usually boring and often frustrating unless you are cav, ranged, or an unusually skilled 2handed player in full looms with a level 32+ build who manages to avoid cav and ranged for the first minutes of the battle (like me.)

Battle now is all based on a multi system with a chance of valor.  Its okay but your only reward is a 4x becoming 5x, and there is really nothing to do besides kill. Any effort to play the game in another way besides TDM over a stupid multi will result in rage or bans, and eventual complete overhauls by the dev team to patch things out.

Core cRPG gameplay has basically been reduced to that empty kind of reward, a multi that most people only pretend to give a shit about.  The gameplay itself is fun, but it has been made less and less engaging for some deliberate reason.  I find Strategus more engaging due to not only funny politics, ability to screw people over with the overworld's gameplay, customizing your armies, and the fundamental gameplay of teamwork, the stories of how a battle went down, every push or takeover of a rooftop has its own little narrative to the larger battle.. it simply presses a lot more buttons then cRPG on its own does.  I think a ton of this could translate to a Conquest mode for simply better gameplay with objectives to fulfill, but that is still just part of the broader picture.

Biggest problem by far in my eyes was all the balance attempts to "fix Warband" but jamming it all into the shit Battle mode of Warband, the soulless type of mode that wasn't even that good in the late 90s with Counter-Strike, and is extremely outdated.  Old cRPG had tons of flavor and life to it that managed to be hilarious past the shitty game type we played it in, but every patch has been trying to close the lid on personal flavor and creativity and make things more streamlined.

I don't really understand why that became the mission statement of cRPG.  "Native with nerfs." That's what it is now, instead of this half MMO, half dynamic griefing/trolling, all excellent combat game it used to be.

You used to watch 200 players cram into a shitty looking bridge on a map because everyone wanted to be as close as possible to get the most XP.  Then some genious saw these tight packed crowd, and the ladder mechanics the devs had to "expand gameplay" by getting onto roofs and stuff.  All of a sudden, you have an amazingly overpowered, fucking hilarious weapon that would launch 20+ people across the map to their deaths. This would make you rage if you got caught, be the best feeling in the world if you got a perfect ladderpault, became part of the strategy of the game, and then eventually got completely removed.

That's what you guys need to bring back, this mod is probably too far gone, and any and all new modes (Conquest, Rush, whatever you have in store) will certainly be improvements. But don't lose sight of what you guys managed to capture for about a year, that so many players were willing to put up with all the grindy bullshitty OP ranged bad maps whatever elements to enjoy.

I think chadz and friends have an idea about this, as Strategus is basically an open world facebook game that allows you to grief and screw other people over, and chadz is definitely a fan of this kind of gameplay from his original ideas about the space game in project asinus.  Whatever you guys are working on now, it is crucial to get some of those "emergent gaming" possibilities back into it.  Allow and encourage players, groups of friends, whatever to build shit together, perhaps significantly alter the map.  Back in the day people in cRPG figured out how funny it was to spam siege equipment in camping spots and stand there every round and people went with them, creating hilarious forts.

This playstyle was forgotten about until ATS brought it back on NA, when forward spawns and weapon racks let them build custom forts with unlimited throwing ammo in funny places from ladder placement and fight to the death.  People who did this got ban polled, screenshotted, tk'd, and eventually you guys went so far as to try to remove this choice in the first place, so it goes back to a more streamlined and frankly boring experience.

Fact was that was a group of friends thinking outside the box with a limited amount of sandboxy tools they had to do hilarious, memorable things that had resonating effects on people.  Of course the reaction was usually rage at "being griefed" and it got stamped out, but it was a good example of a design principle that should be embraced rather then frowned upon.

Imagine how much more fun the game would be if battle mode was 30 minutes long, maybe even hours long until a reset, and there was no winning or losing after one team is dead, letting you respawn. A bunch of people can choose to camp part of a map and build fortifications, then defend it like it was the Alamo for the entire map, while other players can just joust each other as cav in the plains while respawning.  Peasants have menial shitty jobs but still get paid for the map and will inevitably be slaughtered over and over by the knights.  More of that sandbox feel that cRPG used to have, that gave it a soul and personality instead of a simple deathmatch.

I think Conquest mode really could accomplish a lot with the current structure of cRPG and fixing many problems.  You could have much longer rounds, a purpose to build with construction sites and lock down areas, take creative approaches to defending or attacking places, more teamwork, a more compelling game experience in general instead of generic battle gameplay of cookie cutter builds mashing at each other.  A chance to step back from the boring slot limitations, recycled native gameplay, get people to do new things  I talked a LOT about it in a thread I made, and it recieved overwhelming praise and excitement.  http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/conquest-gametype-combine-strategus-siege-and-battle-into-1-bad-assed-mode/

I think a lot of these ideas are being explored for future development and maybe the team's next game, I'm not exactly sure.  But there were so many things in cRPG's history that captured this idea of enabling the players to make their own game and play their own way that usually had hilarious effects, and the dev team here has systematically stamped out every single one of them except in Strategus. And what do you guys have there now.  People working to devise rules that anything remotely outside-the-box is "against the rules" because it makes people upset and cry about how some battles are not exactly identical to every other one.  Because some people think boring, formulaic gameplay with no new ideas is easier to win in, I guess.  But it is most definitely not more fun to play.

If anyone has some stories about things you or your friends have done or seen in cRPG or Strat, old versions or new versions, that were unique or funny or outside the box, even if people would call it exploiting and want you banned, I'd like people to share them. 
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: pingpong on December 26, 2012, 10:43:26 am
(click to show/hide)

I remember .210,  :( , IMO i dont really know what this mod is anymore its half rpg half semi-realistic medieval combat simulator derpaherpderp, it was better when it had its own quirks (ladders, etc), it seems atm this mod only caters to MELEEHEROrealismcreww, which is honestly not that large part of the mod playerbase, judging by serverpop these days..

Balance is good but nerfing everything to smithereens is not, should rollback the turningrate nerf,archerry nerf, and bring back ladders!!
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 26, 2012, 10:44:29 am
ok give me some time will ya :P

edit: disagree
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: LordBerenger on December 26, 2012, 11:31:11 am
Yep. Heh i already complained about the direction of it like January or so 2011 shortly after the big change patch.


Now it's just. ''New nerfs/removal of in-game feature, even more slowing down of combat-speed? Meh...''.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: fosr on December 26, 2012, 11:43:42 am
6 months ago,i only playing DTV,and even today...
I experienced happy 6 Generation. :)
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Smoothrich on December 26, 2012, 11:50:17 am
Quote from: fosr on December 26, 2012, 11:43:42 am
6 months ago,i only playing DTV,and even today...
I experienced happy 6 Generation. :)

DTV is a good mode.  I think LLJK, a large clan of players I used to help lead, were some of the pioneers of how to play it.  There were only 2-3 maps to start, and no virgin, it was "Defend the Village."  People fought in the open, were rather uncoordinated, died in the first few waves.

Once our clan started all joining the server together, we explored the maps and found ideal chokepoints.  We started making shield walls 3-6 men across, tasked with having as many Huscarls or Board shields as possible.  We had 2handers, glaives, pikes, all sorts of support attacking through the gaps in our shield wall, mowing down wave after wave of bots.  Our ranged spread out behind us on elevation and picked people apart as well.

Some EU admins and devs saw us playing like this once, on a map that had several chokepoints that we had to reform and respond to and they were very impressed with our coordination, said we were the only guys they saw playing it like this.  Before long, this mode basically turned into "300:  The Game" and even all pub servers turned into coordinated fighting formations, something you never see in cRPG, where shield walls with long support in the back got to show how effective they can be against attacking hordes.

SO WHAT DID THE DEVS DO YOU WONDER?

Completely fucking reworked the mode, renamed it defend the virgin, added tons of shit maps to it, and took away the ability to fight  in formation like this.  All you can depend on is getting a bugged map with fences to funnel people in and hope the virgin doesn't get sniped, instead of letting the players dictate the pace and location of the fighting.

Perfect example of what I mean here.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Osiris on December 26, 2012, 12:13:05 pm
cant say i agree with a few of your opinions.

Firstly ladderpulting was used almost exclusivly to team kill and not used as a valid tactic to hurt the enemies at all.
Secondly defend the village was always full of team work on eu it wasnt just pubs running around on idiots. it got changed due to maps like arena being impossible to lose :D


It seems to me that all the things you enjoyed and want back in the game are all the things used to grief/troll, Stronghold mode would be nice but your "creative ways" to defend spots are no doubt just ways to troll/grief/abuse something :P
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Kafein on December 26, 2012, 12:19:17 pm
Smoothrich be Smoothriching. You got points, but I'm not at all with you about the ladder business.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Haboe on December 26, 2012, 12:30:46 pm
All i read in the first half: Old fart whining about the good old days...


I do like the part about conquest mode, but other than that this seems like a "it used to be good but now the m0d is dead" post in disguise.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Miwiw on December 26, 2012, 12:32:23 pm
Let the old cRPG rest in Piece. Would be fun again but not for long. All the changes were good and cRPG is far better today than ever! And much better than native.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Haboe on December 26, 2012, 12:34:00 pm
Quote from: Miwiw99 on December 26, 2012, 12:32:23 pm
Let the old cRPG rest in Piece. Would be fun again but not for long. All the changes were good and cRPG is far better today than ever! And much better than native.

Amen to that.

I'd say 2 weeks of the old crpg and 90% of the community would beg the devs to go back to this state.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Vibe on December 26, 2012, 12:34:56 pm
I mostly like the changes except the direct changes to combat that only slowed it down. If you visited Native recently you'll notice how much more fluid, smooth and faster Native is. cRPG feels like someone put additional weight on every action/move compared to it.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 26, 2012, 12:36:23 pm
so as i understand you are mad because the devs brought a little fun in the game by making it a little bit more challenging and by taking away all the unrealistic nonsense that was only used for teamkilling and camping? You are saying the game is only fun when you are lvl 32 with max looms, but im pretty sure that i can has double as much fun as you without, its just that you only want a game where you just walk over peasants and where it is super easy to walk around in tincan armor?
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: autobus on December 26, 2012, 12:37:13 pm
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never forget
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Smoothrich on December 26, 2012, 12:40:01 pm
Quote from: Haboe on December 26, 2012, 12:30:46 pm
All i read in the first half: Old fart whining about the good old days...


I do like the part about conquest mode, but other than that this seems like a "it used to be good but now the m0d is dead" post in disguise.

Not really, its about design philosophy and what makes a game good, and how much should be a controlled environment by the devs and how much space should be allowed for the players.  I think subsequent changes in the game have just made it a rehashed clone of Native with nerfs, and sometimes the community itself punishes people who get creative by making them get tk'd or banned or otherwise griefed, with Battle squeezed dry of any "outside the box" fun it used to have.

I feel like too much was taken from the player in the attempt to make the game more "streamlined" for an audience that doesn't really exist, and wanted to highlight some things that used to be unique and fun about the mod.  Also how the urge for some players to build with ladders, siege sites, camp, all things that get you trolled and banned out of battle would be great in a mode with long lasting rounds like Conquest, where all the interesting construction shit we have could be put to good use and create a more care-free environment. 

I mean, Stronghold mode which I never played seemed to be heavily influenced by the idea of letting people build their own sandboxy type thing in a long lasting round, instead of the repetitive Battle gameplay.  That seems to be a dead gametype, but it has really strong concepts that should be worked back in somehow.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Haboe on December 26, 2012, 12:40:42 pm
Quote from: Kikimoure on December 26, 2012, 12:37:13 pm
(click to show/hide)
never forget

I do miss those yea...

Looney toons axe
Boulder on a stick
Sword of cookies (German GS)
Sword of tears (Danish)

anyone knows other good old names?
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Haboe on December 26, 2012, 12:44:27 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on December 26, 2012, 12:40:01 pm
(click to show/hide)

What 1 sees as creative use of environment, others see as exploiting bugs. Then its up to the developers of a game to decide whether they fix the bugs or let them be there as a part of the game.

Stronghold has only been tested 1 day, i wasn't there but i know tyr won't shut up about how awesome it is and how stupid i am that i missed it  :mrgreen:
So yea, would definitely want to see that back soon'ish.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: LordBerenger on December 26, 2012, 12:50:38 pm
Quote from: Miwiw99 on December 26, 2012, 12:32:23 pm
All the changes were good and cRPG is far better today than ever! And much better than native.

It's so good most players are gone now ._.


Get XmasCRPG up but name it ''Old School cRPG'' and get it as a NA serv as more NA's seemed interested in it back then and also add some admins to prevent pollspamming.


Quote from: no_rules_just_play on December 26, 2012, 12:36:23 pm
so as i understand you are mad because the devs brought a little fun in the game by making it a little bit more challenging.

Wat.. Most people can block good now and just have duels that last hours and it's easy as hell. Combat speed slowed down alot doesn't equal challenging by any means.

Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Smoothrich on December 26, 2012, 12:53:24 pm
Quote from: Haboe on December 26, 2012, 12:44:27 pm
What 1 sees as creative use of environment, others see as exploiting bugs. Then its up to the developers of a game to decide whether they fix the bugs or let them be there as a part of the game.

And that's where the "Where it went wrong" comes from.  The game's community and mechanics are too much about making "fair" gameplay that is stagnate, in a combination of nerfs, engine tweaks, the whole rewards system with the multi, slot system, rage at delaying and camping, removal of ladders, punishment of players who don't blob in and die immediately.

I think a lot of these could be addressed with a new gametype that is more accommodating to camping and building, and the overall concept would be ideal for a full fledged game where players can have more of an impact on the world environment with all the awesome melee gameplay we've come to expect.

Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: autobus on December 26, 2012, 12:57:22 pm
Quote from: Haboe on December 26, 2012, 12:40:42 pm
I do miss those yea...

Looney toons axe
Boulder on a stick
Sword of cookies (German GS)
Sword of tears (Danish)

anyone knows other good old names?
You forgot lance of compensation
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Teeth on December 26, 2012, 01:21:55 pm
Conquest would be lame as fuck seeing as everybody would be spread out all over the place, but I guess you as a 2h hero would like that. 2h heroes and cav would reign supreme. Besides respawns are uncool, battle = best mode.

Also, most of the 'fun' things you described were fun for the 3 people doing it and boring/lame/annoying as fuck for the 117 other players.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Panos on December 26, 2012, 01:23:36 pm
Bring back tournaments,big clan fights, themed fights and the fun will be alive again..
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Prpavi on December 26, 2012, 01:32:05 pm
Quote from: Panos on December 26, 2012, 01:23:36 pm
Bring back tournaments,big clan fights, themed fights and the fun will be alive again..

This!
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Teeth on December 26, 2012, 01:36:12 pm
Quote from: Panos on December 26, 2012, 01:23:36 pm
Bring back tournaments,big clan fights, themed fights and the fun will be alive again..
In summer 2011 the clan battle scene was thriving, but then Strategus came and it instakilled it. Blame Strategus for the lack of a clan battle scene. Now the mod is too dead anyway, with very few clans remaining and player numbers dropping.

Quote from: Haboe on December 26, 2012, 12:40:42 pm
Looney toons axe
Boulder on a stick
Sword of cookies (German GS)
Sword of tears (Danish)
I am pretty sure the Danish was the Sword of Cookies and the German was the Sword of Tears.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: FleetFox on December 26, 2012, 01:48:55 pm
SmoothRich you are a saint for saying the truth about cRPG. +1 all the way sir. Bring back the creative fun of cRPG!

One of the Funniest memories I can think of, is when I was back in the Shogunate. We had about 15 Shogunate members attacking the castle in siege led by Shogunate_Belmont and his mastery in the art of throwing up ladders around the back. We all crammed up one ladder with the pleasure of knowing a win for us was soon to result. Then as if by some benevolent act the enemy team killed the ladder and all 15 of us wielding our MW Nodachis and katanas were flung back down the cliff to our demise. So goddamn funny and hurtful at the same time. :P
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Yachdiel on December 26, 2012, 01:51:37 pm
A Brief History of cRPG

A lot of you probably have no idea who I am, and even less of you probably recognize me in game. But know that I've been playing cRPG for a very long time, around the time NA was just getting started. But bear with me because if you don't understand why cRPG is the way it is, I am here to (make up shit...) help.

I agree with the idea that the old cRPG had a lot of features that made cRPG amazingly addictive.

In the beginning, chadz created cRPG
It had freedom, it was addictive, and it was a true "RPG."You could do anything. And you more or less built your character as you played to how to felt. There were those like Destin, who's builds were a mix of everything. As well as Cyclonite and Fedor, who were crazy good horsemen.

The only rising problem was the leveling system had to be changed cause some players were just going to keep on leveling and no one could catch up, that's where heirlooms were introduced.

And that's where everything went wrong.


The devs had to make this recycling of levels so that players couldn't continue to rise higher, so they created the incentive of retiring, which at first was too ridiculous as one could easily do it in a day, and offered the benefits of keeping wpf. But that was settled out. But then there was a new problem. Money. Too much money in the system. Those who heirloomed continued to be able to pull in huge amounts of money, with no way of recycling. We began to see those in Tincans with the legendary plated charger, a horse said impossible to save money for, but they began popping up more and more.

Upkeep and multi's

This is where cRPG took its greatest fall.

This completely changed cRPG. The new money system turned battle into this spread out battlefield with preference to fighters who could hold their own alone. Teamwork was more sparse as players weren't enticed to be closer to the battle. Cav ran RAPID, and Archers became a huge problem. So to balance out this, the Devs moved to Balance.

Further Balancing

This is the era we currently live in, Archers can be good, but only to players who have all heirlooms. Cav continues to dominate the battleground, through the support of the marketplace money factory. And both have been nerfed to shit, along with every other build that plays rock paper scissors and wins to atleast 1. Now we have a mod that seems to be steep on learnability and excitement in character creation. cRPG now has the rising problem of to many heirlooms in the system. And the Level cap (by Level cap I am refering to level before retirement) is set to 30, which may statistically look appealing, but offers no freedom in a build.

Message to Devs
if you are reading this, I would like to say that while I am not here to suggest from my random opinions (thats another forum), I would like to suggest alternatives to the problems with the initial cRPG that would make it seem more like that old cRPG feel. I propose
   Keep Multiplier System for Siege.
 
   Switch Battle money system back to normal, that way Cav and Archers can be back to their normal level of efficiency without 10tonnes of useless nerfs, but they have to adopt a reduction in money that is only bolstered by their ability to support the group (I guarantee we will see less of them then)
   
   Increase level cap before retire to a higher level, maybe 60, that would allow more freedom in builds
   
   Make Heirlooms go to +3 for every retirement, but make players pay upkeep only on their heirlooms. Higher level caps would make heirlooms rare. By making them reduce to +2 or +1 and need repairing, you can manipulate an outsource of money.
   
   I also propose that there be an encumbrance system, so that even with a high amount of money, only some builds can equip a lot of heavy equipment, this will limit the effectiveness of money, and allow it to be used in other areas (banner, heirloom upkeep, etc.)

Nevertheless, I love this mod and I simply want to help. Smoothrich, you hit it right on the head for me.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: _GTX_ on December 26, 2012, 02:04:02 pm
Quote from: Panos on December 26, 2012, 01:23:36 pm
Bring back tournaments,big clan fights, themed fights and the fun will be alive again..

Fallen tournaments were the best back then, i had so much fun winning being in them.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Kafein on December 26, 2012, 02:07:26 pm
Quote from: Yachdiel on December 26, 2012, 01:51:37 pm
which at first was too ridiculous as one could easily do it in a day, and offered the benefits of keeping wpf.

Just to be sure, did you actually play back then ? Cause "one could easily do it in a day" is 100% bullshit. Also at gen 1 you only had 5% wpf carry over, +5% per gen so it only became a real problem in the later generations.

Quote from: Yachdiel on December 26, 2012, 01:51:37 pm
Those who heirloomed continued to be able to pull in huge amounts of money, with no way of recycling.

Again, false. Retiring cost gold at the time, 5000 gold at gen 1 +5000 per gen. And gold wasn't fast to obtain at all. It was the main bottleneck and the main reason even the hardcore gen grinders like gaga did not reach much higher than gen 15. Of course, the gen xp bonus and cumulative wpf of gen 15 were godlike already.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Mlekce on December 26, 2012, 02:09:20 pm
Another drama thread... Aren't you bored of posting shit and crying?
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Tzar on December 26, 2012, 02:11:41 pm
Only thing i would like changed is the slow combat an silly turn rate nerf.....

Everything else like the others have said was completely stupid an only used to grief an be lame... not funny at all..

chadz should make a server with the old mod for all your trolls to go n play your silly version.. ohh wait... he all rdy did.. no1 showed up  8-)

Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: highglandeur on December 26, 2012, 02:12:17 pm
I feel devs have intended to please the players, those who play their mod the most, they can't be blamed for that.
You are right to speak your mind though, however what you're asking for smooth (bringing back the trolling with siege towers and catapults, the healing tents, the roofcamping and fucking around) would be ok for this "conquest gametype", but not for battle. Only my humble opinion.


Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Yachdiel on December 26, 2012, 02:17:30 pm
Quote from: Kafein on December 26, 2012, 02:07:26 pm
Just to be sure, did you actually play back then ? Cause "one could easily do it in a day" is 100% bullshit. Also at gen 1 you only had 5% wpf carry over, +5% per gen so it only became a real problem in the later generations.

Again, false. Retiring cost gold at the time, 5000 gold at gen 1 +5000 per gen. And gold wasn't fast to obtain at all. It was the main bottleneck and the main reason even the hardcore gen grinders like gaga did not reach much higher than gen 15. Of course, the gen xp bonus and cumulative wpf of gen 15 were godlike already.

I had no trouble generating a large amount of money and XP, I was a shielder using the Luiyaedao so I was right in the battle. At the time +3 was 105 and so insanely fast I would outswing ninjas with katanas. Cav Gaga wasn't that great until she picked up the morningstar, she used the LoC often so she may have been able to grind but certainly wasn't in the action enough to make as much as i did.

Also I don't think it was +5000*gen
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: karasu on December 26, 2012, 02:20:18 pm
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Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Shaksie on December 26, 2012, 02:54:53 pm
I love you Smoothrich.
You spoke our minds.
Now devs, put more retardation into the game.
Thankye
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Smoothrich on December 26, 2012, 02:59:17 pm
Quote from: highglandeur on December 26, 2012, 02:12:17 pm
I feel devs have intended to please the players, those who play their mod the most, they can't be blamed for that.
You are right to speak your mind though, however what you're asking for smooth (bringing back the trolling with siege towers and catapults, the healing tents, the roofcamping and fucking around) would be ok for this "conquest gametype", but not for battle. Only my humble opinion.

I agree it doesn't fit with battle the way it is now, yes, and am not asking for it back.  Merely pointing out the evolution of the mod to the point where that kind of gameplay no longer exists.  And I agree that it would fit into a conquest gametype, which is the number one thing I'd like to see added in cRPG.  Maps that go on for half an hour or longer, with places that you need to fortify and defend, exuses to wander around the edges of the map with your buddies, ladders back in the game, hell people could be using siege towers and catapults (and hopefully soon, ballistas!)  for legitimate gameplay purposes.  It would be a breath of fresh air.  Instead they took out all of the fun and half the skill of the warband engine and stuck us with boring Battle and almost nothing else.

Quote from: Teeth on December 26, 2012, 01:21:55 pm
Conquest would be lame as fuck seeing as everybody would be spread out all over the place, but I guess you as a 2h hero would like that. 2h heroes and cav would reign supreme. Besides respawns are uncool, battle = best mode.

Also, most of the 'fun' things you described were fun for the 3 people doing it and boring/lame/annoying as fuck for the 117 other players.

Funny, a 2handed cav player I know posted in my Conquest thread that he thought archery would be the overpowered class, because they could sit in flag cap areas and defend them with cover.  I think every class could shine in that mode, and people would definitely stick together to capture or defend points, except flankers and cav and the sort will be useful in harassing rear areas and cutting off reinforcements or any sort of thing.

Wouldn't know for sure unless it was playtested.  I feel like Field by the River would be ideal for a simple beta of it, with the current spawns as 2 points and the ruins everyone fights over as the third point.  Can't imagine it will be that different from battle, except allow the map to breathe longer, the rage-levels to go down, people to care less about dying and more about working as a team and doing stuff.  And the campers and builders and all those guys would actually fit into the teams quite well, instead of trolling Battle.

Also to everyone talking about missing organized events and clan play, my friends and I are working on getting a 2 vs 2 duel tournament going soon for the NA community as we speak.  I love competitive gaming and wish there was more support for it built into cRPG myself, but it is an entirely seperate issue from the ideas I'm discussing here and might be worth its own thread.  In-game support for things like 5 vs 5 scrims, team rankings, in-client betting on match outcomes would be great, and a melee game like this could even have appeal as an e-sport.  Too bad the overhead had to be nerfed to shit and stabs made so wonky that makes dueling kind of lame now.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Tore on December 26, 2012, 03:00:03 pm
Make ivani4 admin agreed 1+
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Xol! on December 26, 2012, 03:05:14 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on December 26, 2012, 10:37:02 am
If anyone has some stories about things you or your friends have done or seen in cRPG or Strat, old versions or new versions, that were unique or funny or outside the box, even if people would call it exploiting and want you banned, I'd like people to share them.

Quote from: AirPhforce on January 10, 2011, 12:46:26 am
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Leshma on December 26, 2012, 03:08:04 pm
Back in the days, when I was grinding gold to buy gear, I was using pitchfork for few gens. Now I'm again doing the same thing, even if there is no rational reason behind that (sitting on 14 MW items and over 10 million of gold atm). I'm doing that because it's part of long term goal I'm trying to achieve. Without that, cRPG has no meaning for me because I've done everything cRPG has to offer. Well, I could ride plated charger or abuse extreme STR build (more than 100 HP) in full plate til the end of time but I don't find that appealing.

Now back to Pitchfork part. Year and a half ago, that pitchfork was very decent and extremely useful weapon. I could stunlock people with it, was able to toy with shielders. Nothing better when you kill full plate dude as a peasant with a damn pitchfork :lol:

Today, that Pitchfork of mine is piece of crap wood and iron meld together (just like the price suggests). Why? First of all, pitchfork always had low damage (although priece) but I never complained about it. I was able to attack while turning around and there was paulstagger. Now with both those things gone I can do very little with my pitchfork. Actually most of the time I'm backpeddaling, waiting for that moment when enemy drop his block to attack before him (which is hard with just 100 wpf and 18 AGI). Pitchfork shouldn't be any good, but I'm afraid most 2D polearms are in the same boat as Pitchfork.

All thanks to game mechanics changes that happened during last two years.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Rebelyell on December 26, 2012, 03:28:58 pm
leschma.... because warband have retarded stab block mechanik, and polestun and stab rotation is an supersillyway to fix that.
also old crpg with todays playerbase = lvl 50 and higer strat my old friends in full loomed plates on small tanks killing game with superpowered bulids....

no thx
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Berserkadin on December 26, 2012, 04:25:23 pm
To all of you thinking that turn rate nerf and general slowing down of the game is a good thing

GTFO

This spiral of nerfs that cRPG has gone trough the last year is just making it worse and worse and worse. Its going down the Nerf-hole man.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: FleetFox on December 26, 2012, 05:39:37 pm
Quote from: Leshma on December 26, 2012, 03:08:04 pm
Back in the days, when I was grinding gold to buy gear, I was using pitchfork for few gens. Now I'm again doing the same thing, even if there is no rational reason behind that (sitting on 14 MW items and over 10 million of gold atm). I'm doing that because it's part of long term goal I'm trying to achieve. Without that, cRPG has no meaning for me because I've done everything cRPG has to offer. Well, I could ride plated charger or abuse extreme STR build (more than 100 HP) in full plate til the end of time but I don't find that appealing.

Now back to Pitchfork part. Year and a half ago, that pitchfork was very decent and extremely useful weapon. I could stunlock people with it, was able to toy with shielders. Nothing better when you kill full plate dude as a peasant with a damn pitchfork :lol:

Today, that Pitchfork of mine is piece of crap wood and iron meld together (just like the price suggests). Why? First of all, pitchfork always had low damage (although priece) but I never complained about it. I was able to attack while turning around and there was paulstagger. Now with both those things gone I can do very little with my pitchfork. Actually most of the time I'm backpeddaling, waiting for that moment when enemy drop his block to attack before him (which is hard with just 100 wpf and 18 AGI). Pitchfork shouldn't be any good, but I'm afraid most 2D polearms are in the same boat as Pitchfork.

All thanks to game mechanics changes that happened during last two years.

Well Leshma, another way you could get a good Samaritan kick from cRPG would to join our clan the Band of Foxes and donate some looms and a few mil of gold to help our new players! :) thanks
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Meow on December 26, 2012, 06:35:07 pm
What some people really need to understand is that griefing and trolling is not something we want.
But since some people put their "fun" above that of the other players it's often necessary to take actions and make it impossible.

I kinda see the point of the thread when it comes to building stuff in battle and siege but the rest looks like everything between early 2011 and now is completely forgotten and it's just the usual good memory about something that in reality was much worse back then.

Personally I don't really play games longer than a week or two before they bore me so c-rpg for sure was an exception and would probably still be if I had the time to game but over time people just grow tiered of the same thing over and over and I highly doubt ladders and buffs would change that.

I'm all for giving you guys the old crpg like last xmas and everyone who enjoyed that can go back to it, not that it was any less of a grind or anything.
Also much much worse for new players.


Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Tibe on December 26, 2012, 06:44:37 pm
Yep, Meow speaks the truth. You will be bored of the new crpg as you became bored of the old ones. Buffs and adding stuff will not change that. As like all MP games, its the grind that kills it.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Leshma on December 26, 2012, 07:14:11 pm
Quote from: Meow on December 26, 2012, 06:35:07 pm
I'm all for giving you guys the old crpg like last xmas and everyone who enjoyed that can go back to it, not that it was any less of a grind or anything.
Also much much worse for new players.

Whole point of higher levels is having more points to play with, creating different builds. As you already know better than me, that makes balancing much harder. Grind isn't related to high levels, grind is the time needed to achieve those levels. Shorten that time and there won't be more grind. But balancing issue persists.

Also, I have a feeling you guys never put much thought into making any changes. But that's understandable because you obviously work on this in your free time. Most developers don't think much about balance either (even the paid ones), that's why most online games are more or less broken. My only problem is that you don't really take into account stuff people wrote, stuff they put a lot of thought and their free time, just like you guys did.

However, in case of standalone game I have much higher expectations :)
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Leshma on December 26, 2012, 07:23:16 pm
Quote from: TiberiusX on December 26, 2012, 06:44:37 pm
Yep, Meow speaks the truth. You will be bored of the new crpg as you became bored of the old ones. Buffs and adding stuff will not change that. As like all MP games, its the grind that kills it.

Reason why are we all still here is because this is still that awesome game Warband, but much improved and with countless bugs fixed. If they take Warband component and release just Strategus without action combat, I doubt there would be much players left. cRPG/Warband is the core, Strat is just addon.

Compared to other online games, here grind is almost nonexistent. But there is that urge of most players to get as many shiny loomed items as possible and grind needed to achieve that is epic indeed. That's why I think time needed for full gen should be halved even. But higher levels make this mod more interesting.

Also Warband is popular mainly because of combat mechanics. If we forget about it, there is still fact it can host a lot of players. And it's medieval game which obviously means a lot to many people. But if we take that all away and put to the side, this is one terribly coded, ugly and game full of tiny bugs. Physics in Warband sure is interesting but collision bugs are everywhere. Just think of the ways it's possible to get stuck in this engine. Like a damn Swiss cheese, that's Warband source code.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Smoothrich on December 26, 2012, 07:28:12 pm
I never said I wanted old cRPG back.  I just want to see some things brought back in a new gametype or something so servers can feel more like sandboxes with more interesting gameplay then dumbed down battle mode.

Combat mechanic changes are almost across the board awful though, there is really no denying that and really not much of an excuse for the overhead turning nerf the way it was implemented, along with all of the earlier weapon activation times in general.  All things to force us to play the game in a way that the devs prefer, except it was done sloppily and awkwardly and removes a lot of control and intuitiveness with your character.  Just more ways to take control away from the player.  You will NOT spin while you swing!  You will NOT land those swings with teammates behind you!  You will NOT.. so on and so forth.  Just taking things away from the player in pursuit of a "vision" that turns most people off.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Tibe on December 26, 2012, 07:43:43 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on December 26, 2012, 07:28:12 pm
(click to show/hide)

Ye, but sofar the only thing that sorta jumps away from the usual Warband/crpg/whateva tipe of battles in Warband has been the PW mod.....I think some combination of Crpg/PW could produce something damn epic that we urge for. Am I wrong?
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Azlanek on December 26, 2012, 09:16:32 pm
I'm all for adding more resources for the player on a conquest/siege server.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Tom Cruise on December 26, 2012, 09:28:45 pm
Quote from: Meow on December 26, 2012, 06:35:07 pm
What some people really need to understand is that griefing and trolling is not something we want.
But since some people put their "fun" above that of the other players it's often necessary to take actions and make it impossible.

I kinda see the point of the thread when it comes to building stuff in battle and siege but the rest looks like everything between early 2011 and now is completely forgotten and it's just the usual good memory about something that in reality was much worse back then.

Personally I don't really play games longer than a week or two before they bore me so c-rpg for sure was an exception and would probably still be if I had the time to game but over time people just grow tiered of the same thing over and over and I highly doubt ladders and buffs would change that.

I'm all for giving you guys the old crpg like last xmas and everyone who enjoyed that can go back to it, not that it was any less of a grind or anything.
Also much much worse for new players.

That.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Tore on December 26, 2012, 09:41:08 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Uumdi on December 26, 2012, 09:49:45 pm
I thought the game was strongest with the first major WSE release.  The game was so fresh and new that we somehow forgave the terrible mechanics.  Remember overheads through teammates?  Terrible.  When they managed to remove it, it showed me that they really do have the best of the community in mind.


Its hard to please everybody.  Here I am the wednesday morning after christmas, lobbying for a weaponmaster buff to a game I haven't played in weeks.  I played with a 1 hand sword the other day after not playing for weeks - the overhead swing felt fine to me all the sudden.  I remember day 1 of the spin nerf, I was actually cheering, because it made sense in my head.  I pulled out the bill and went 15-1 the very first map I played.  Some fog cleared in my rage-filled head that was like... hey this isn't so bad.  Then I got shot with an arbalest.  Then I quit, haha.  Its just funny to me because I actually want the arbalest to get buffed too.


Though everyone is going to have different opinions on past versions of the mod vs. the current version, you bring up the single most important point that I absolutely have to agree with.  Some new life needs to be pumped in to it - not through balance changes - not through buffs or nerfs, but something that makes us say "I want to play cRPG tonight".  Something that creates a memorable time.  Absolutely not a revert to the old days, but something that creates a great deal of freedom.

I played xmasrpg last year.  God, it was awful.  Things were indeed much much worse than they were today.  Ladders were terrible always, which is my major complaint about the way strategus sieges are now too.  But I do admit, I played 10 times the amount of siege back then, and had the time of my life, not really worrying about multis even though they existed.  I liked the old armor soak values and hunting goretooth.  Glancing off armor sucked, but you shouldn't be able to left swing black plate with a scottish sword effortlessly, and I felt my high pierce weapon had its place.  Heavy armor is still effective though, with healthy amounts of STR and ironflesh.  Many mechanics did just feel that much more intuitive - even goring my teammates' faces with the backswing on the english bill, and constantly getting hung up on walls with it on my first gen really added immersion in the most backwards way.  As disgusting as my playstyle was pre-spin-nerf, not everyone used the swiss halberd or english bill - but they existed, and they were respected (by most haha).

100% support for conquest mode.  Strategus should be played by the community as a whole too, instead of stepping on toes and S'ing people's D's.  The game is in a good spot, we just need to move forward and breathe some life into it.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: justme on December 26, 2012, 10:34:30 pm
remove the cavfest thats on eu1 now
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on December 26, 2012, 10:52:03 pm
I got around halfway through.
So you came to play a game, where killing the other team is the objective, to goof off and build stupid crap?
Garry's Mod.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: zottlmarsch on December 26, 2012, 11:27:07 pm
It's Christmas time for fucks sake, do you guys have nothing better to do than write big essays about the state of a mod?
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Duster on December 26, 2012, 11:30:16 pm
Quote from: zottlmarsch on December 26, 2012, 11:27:07 pm
It's Christmas time for fucks sake, do you guys have nothing better to do than write big essays about the state of a mod?


You must be new here, dude
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: zottlmarsch on December 26, 2012, 11:31:45 pm
Nah, I've been here years.

But do these peeps not have families/wives/friends/girlfriends?
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Boerenlater on December 26, 2012, 11:42:31 pm
Quote from: zottlmarsch on December 26, 2012, 11:31:45 pm
Nah, I've been here years.

But do these peeps not have families/wives/friends/girlfriends?
>Addicted to an online game
>Having families/wives/friends/girlfriends
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: owens on December 27, 2012, 12:09:27 am
cRPG is more broken than ever.


With the old goofy weapon values and ballistic max wpf everyone was on an even playing field. There was never a single player who couldn't be 1 hit at any moment this made the game far more arcade and strangely enough reduced rage.

At the moment some obscene game "balance" has been implemented. Buffing longswords and bastard swords to a point at which they are unblockable when used by a good player is not fair. 1H bouncing inappropriately is also very unfair. Polearm and 2H being forced to strafe their opponents constantly to get maximum damage and speed just looks silly. 

chadz and the devs are on a vendetta against cRPG AUS that's for sure. When I come up against an average player I know im going to win and I know when I come up against a guy like kadeth that i'm going to lose. You take a look at every single successful skill based game franchise there isn't one in which the "little guy" has no chance at all.

I don't mind block stun, OP kicks and strength whoring. I hate the fact that cRPG aus is lucky to get 12 players and North America with some of the worst players in the world gets 60+  players every day.  The reason we struggle is not the size of our warband community its the skill level. We need a game that allows decent players to take on good ones and bad players to contribute at all. Its time to normalize strength and agility and make a game where every player can find a niche so that they can contribute.

Also archery sucks dick, without loomed gear its the shittest thing ever at a low level (maybe a new player) you are shooting feathers. Being forced into investing well over 135wpf in one skill restricts the amount of potential builds for archers immensely. Not being able to go 3 PD athletics archer due to arrow weight is shit. Bodkins being the only useful arrow is also a pain in the dick.

Horse archery is completely useless and spears ha what a joke i haven't seen a 1 on 1 spear kill in Australia for 6 months.

In a game with so many potential classes why make so few playable and useful. I see so many new guys come online and say I want to be ranger or a knight. Having to tell them that they cant afford to wear good armour and that they have to grind for 50 hours to be able to afford it is the saddest thing in the world. Explaining to them that if they split wpf they wont be able to shoot or fight and that they need to have at least 5PD to even damage most players is even worse.

The only reason I still play this shit is because I haven't found anything else.

Fuck you cRPG, fuck you. No other game has been designed so well to kill its community.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: obitus on December 27, 2012, 01:12:39 am
looms matter way, way too much
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: cmp on December 27, 2012, 01:12:51 am
Quote from: owens on December 27, 2012, 12:09:27 am
chadz and the devs are on a vendetta against cRPG AUS that's for sure.

...

No other game has been designed so well to kill its community.

Not well enough, apparently.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Tindel on December 27, 2012, 01:24:15 am
The game gets better every damn patch, it keeps evolving and expanding. The future is forward, stop living in the past.

Yes some decisions might not have been for the best, but stagnation is deadly to a online game/community, we must change or die the slow death.

Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Yachdiel on December 27, 2012, 03:13:21 am
No one here is living in the past, we would like to expand by bringing back some things that the mod did right.

And to those who don't like these posts:
And its easy to squirrel out and say that we are bitching/whining/nolife essay writers; but, you know, there are comments some others would like to say without being deduced as a bitchpost. Its not as though we were intrusively forcing your eyes the millisecond of burden to see this topic in general discussion.

Some of you should get real with the fact that other people play this game and love it enough to want to make sure its right.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Smoothrich on December 27, 2012, 08:14:00 am
Quote from: Meow on December 26, 2012, 06:35:07 pm
What some people really need to understand is that griefing and trolling is not something we want.

I understand how that pertains to cRPG, but I think it's pretty funny recalling chadz's brief explanation of the concept for that space sandboxy game they were thinking about.  It was basically nothing but a template to grief.  Of course some people would play for the sake of building stuff and flying around or whatever with friends, but he talked a lot about permadeath and an open-ended style of playing.

Naturally most of my friends immediately began thinking of ways to deceive and grief people in-game, such as pretending to be skilled space engineers to upgrade ships and install slow-acting destructive things that would suck all the oxygen out, detonate the ship, give us control of of it so we could fly them into a sun, or whatever.  I'm sure most of the scams or pirate raids we could think of would end in our own permadeaths but it certainly seemed to be an intended style of gameplay with surely hilarious consequences. 

Of course open ended options like that don't have to be used to grief and people could create all sorts of gameplay and ideas and whatever was fun or popular would stick and resonate out with the community of the game.  I simply think that the random, player-driven chance of havoc, mayhem, betrayals, whatever is pretty damn hilarious in games and that type of experience is seen often in Strategus, despite the game being mostly an overbearing pile of buggy facebook crap that appears to be dead already for EU but still flaring in NA at least.

Mostly I wanted to just bring up how these things crop up in games and how interesting they can be, and how cRPG had its own share, even if a lot of it was just stupid bugs that could be used to ruin the game.  Just the environment for unique fighting styles, creative strategies on maps, funny weird builds, all of that has been slowly phased out of cRPG and I think its highly detrimental to making a truly effective game that people get connected with.  Now its just a bland deathmatch with a sweet (but overfucked with mechanic nerfs) combat engine for better or for worse.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Miley on December 27, 2012, 08:33:16 am
I read most of what you had to say Smooth, and I agree AND disagree with you.

Sure I miss old cRPG, but I also like the current cRPG. I don't think we should revert to old cRPG though because:
1. I don't want new people knowing what old cRPG is.
2. I've gotten used to this cRPG.
3. Having alt characters is easier on this cRPG.
4. I don't feel pressured to level up and stuff because everyone is around the same level because of the retirement system and exp system.

I do agree that some things from old cRPG (or just older versions of cRPG) should be added again:
1. Unblock all roofs, and stop blocking every roof--it's just so annoying.
2. Bring back ladders.
3. Sure, bring back some old cRPG weapons like Boulder on a Stick.
4. Buff Horse ARCHERY.
5. When ATS controlled the servers they made an AWESOME site that had kills and rankings, etc. This disappeared when official told them to take it off.
6. Give some more weapons crushthrough like they had before (ex: Bar Mace).
7. Fun city maps, Native maps, less cav maps...
8. ETC.

I like how fast I can get items compared to the grind of getting items in old cRPG, but in old cRPG it felt so rewarding to finally get that thing you were saving up for. SO KINDA TWO SIDED THERE...

Another thing, I think what was fun about old cRPG was the stuff you don't expect and was kind of random if you know what I mean, mostly caused by different level people and builds. (Ex: high level throwing build, Beatrix, crymoar, horse archers, etc.) It was fun, there were so many builds and stuff and varied. This all caused This cRPG is kind of like uniform and not as exciting.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Kafein on December 27, 2012, 12:17:30 pm
Quote from: Miley on December 27, 2012, 08:33:16 am
1. Unblock all roofs, and stop blocking every roof--it's just so annoying.
2. Bring back ladders.
3. Sure, bring back some old cRPG weapons like Boulder on a Stick.
4. Buff Horse ARCHERY.
5. When ATS controlled the servers they made an AWESOME site that had kills and rankings, etc. This disappeared when official told them to take it off.
6. Give some more weapons crushthrough like they had before (ex: Bar Mace).
7. Fun city maps, Native maps, less cav maps...
8. ETC.

...


...



and now a good reason ? Except the boulder on a stick I mean. Also the website was brought down due to a problem with people taking over accounts with unpassworded alts.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Tibe on December 27, 2012, 12:32:27 pm
Quote from: Miley on December 27, 2012, 08:33:16 am
(click to show/hide)

This is the crap im talking about. You seriuslly think this is gonna make the game more fun? I mean most of you guys have always exactly the same suggestions, that should count as regular reposts: Nerf this, buff this, add maps, add items. I quarantee its maximum 3 days more fun in Crpg nomatter how many maps or items added, nomatter how many buffs or nerfs done. And dreaming about something further than that is just too much codingwork. Kudos for Rageball and strat thou. Those were freaking genius.

I still sometimes dream of that Fortress or whatever gamemode. Sounded freaking awesome, too bad its not realised yet.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: jasonjay543 on December 27, 2012, 01:32:23 pm
Here's my opinion, don't like it, don't play it.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Osiris on December 27, 2012, 01:40:17 pm
yes because all we need is for the 5-10 grey order guys running around in a group all stacking str and crush barmaces again ^^
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Vibe on December 27, 2012, 01:52:29 pm
Quote from: Miley on December 27, 2012, 08:33:16 am
I do agree that some things from old cRPG (or just older versions of cRPG) should be added again:
1. Unblock all roofs, and stop blocking every roof--it's just so annoying.
2. Bring back ladders.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Templar_Ratigan on December 27, 2012, 03:00:25 pm
It went wrong the second people started becoming entitled ego-pigs, bloated on their own sense of self-importance.

Ive always been annoyed at the sheer arrogance of the player base. This ridiculous ideal of difficulty only within ones style of play and all others are easy by comparison and should therefore be reduced so as not to pop the precious ego of the self.

Im tired of the sheer torrent of abuse you receive if you even so much as deviate from the masses. It's really fucking pathetic.

Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Joseph Porta on December 27, 2012, 04:02:06 pm
Quote from: Vibe on December 27, 2012, 01:52:29 pm
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lold
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Tindel on December 27, 2012, 08:05:16 pm
Ladders are a part of strategus, they work there.
I have a hard time seeing ladders work on a public server in a random game of battle/siege. The balance issues are huge, maps, classes, clans.
It is way to easy to grief and fuck up everything.

Even though ladders are really fun i think the game is better without them
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Miley on December 27, 2012, 08:52:49 pm
Quote from: TiberiusX on December 27, 2012, 12:32:27 pm
This is the crap im talking about. You seriuslly think this is gonna make the game more fun? I mean most of you guys have always exactly the same suggestions, that should count as regular reposts: Nerf this, buff this, add maps, add items. I quarantee its maximum 3 days more fun in Crpg nomatter how many maps or items added, nomatter how many buffs or nerfs done. And dreaming about something further than that is just too much codingwork. Kudos for Rageball and strat thou. Those were freaking genius.

I still sometimes dream of that Fortress or whatever gamemode. Sounded freaking awesome, too bad its not realised yet.

Tell me, did you play cRPG? If you didn't, then you shouldn't be talking. And if you did, then how could you argue that old cRPG was less random than this cRPG?
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Rumblood on December 27, 2012, 09:34:54 pm
Good points and bad points. This is the one that matters though:

Hilarious to some = griefing and fuck this game for others.

How hilarious will it be when only the trolls are playing the game? Not at all. Once they've sucked the life out of a community, they move on. Dead mod isn't hilarious at all.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Tibe on December 27, 2012, 09:39:46 pm
That randomness you knew and loved so much will not solve squat.  Your suggestions filled with buffs, nerfs and adding more stuff will not bring *the good old days* back. If the basic gamemechanic is the same, if the grinding is basically the same and if all the classes still somewhat exsist there is little profit to be had by bringing the old crpg back.

Miley I highly doubt you seriuslly think, that bringing that randomness back would give you lots of more months filled with enjoyment in this mod. Id give you a week, tops, till you either start calling bullshit on many balancingissues or you just get bored like with this crpg.

An example: Its like me(and my mates) and the PW mod. We got sick of it a year ago, nomatter how much stuff they added and things they putted in there since then, we dont want to play it anymore. We know its wastly improved and more fun than the times when we played it, but we are just sick of it entirely. Its normally the basic gameplay that bores us, not the stuff, not the classes and not the maps.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Kafein on December 27, 2012, 09:42:21 pm
As a peasant :

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Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Kaoklai on December 27, 2012, 10:17:21 pm
People are getting way too hung up on a few examples that Smooth used and missing his actual point about emergent gameplay (which he has stated several times in subsequent posts, and which morons continue to ignore).  The discussion in this thread of old cRPG good/bad, griefing fun/unfun is so absurdly reductionist a response to the OP that my opinion of the general cRPG forum posters' intelligence has actually decreased, a phenomenon I hitherto thought impossible. 
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Kafein on December 27, 2012, 10:28:09 pm
Quote from: Kaoklai on December 27, 2012, 10:17:21 pm
People are getting way too hung up on a few examples that Smooth used and missing his actual point about emergent gameplay (which he has stated several times in subsequent posts, and which morons continue to ignore).  The discussion in this thread of old cRPG good/bad, griefing fun/unfun is so absurdly reductionist a response to the OP that my opinion of the general cRPG forum posters' intelligence has actually decreased, a phenomenon I hitherto thought impossible.

We discuss what we think is wrong, and ignore what we agree about.

If you are shocked by this, you probably never had a conversation with a human being prior to this.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Azlanek on December 27, 2012, 10:45:16 pm
Quote from: Kafein on December 27, 2012, 10:28:09 pm
We discuss what we think is wrong, and ignore what we agree about.

If you are shocked by this, you probably never had a conversation with a human being prior to this.

Letting the other person assume what you agree and don't agree with is not an efficient way of communicating with others. Taking others' needs, such as letting them know what you mean, is also a part of manners, which should be considered when making conversation with another. In not following them, you might risk angering the other person and drift the conversation from its original purpose.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Rumblood on December 27, 2012, 11:02:54 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on December 27, 2012, 08:14:00 am
Naturally most of my friends immediately began thinking of ways to deceive and grief people in-game

Quote from: Kaoklai on December 27, 2012, 10:17:21 pm
People are getting way too hung up on a few examples that Smooth used and missing his actual point about emergent gameplay (which he has stated several times in subsequent posts, and which morons continue to ignore).  The discussion in this thread of old cRPG good/bad, griefing fun/unfun is so absurdly reductionist a response to the OP that my opinion of the general cRPG forum posters' intelligence has actually decreased, a phenomenon I hitherto thought impossible.


We are what?
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Azlanek on December 27, 2012, 11:53:23 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on December 27, 2012, 11:02:54 pm

We are what?

Smoothrich was talking about a completely different game that has nothing to do with cRPG. Here, let me quote it for you:

Quote
I understand how that pertains to cRPG, but I think it's pretty funny recalling chadz's brief explanation of the concept for that space sandboxy game they were thinking about.  It was basically nothing but a template to grief.  Of course some people would play for the sake of building stuff and flying around or whatever with friends, but he talked a lot about permadeath and an open-ended style of playing.

Now in this light the statement suddenly makes more sense:

Quote
Naturally most of my friends immediately began thinking of ways to deceive and grief people in-game
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: partyboy on December 28, 2012, 12:55:11 am
Smooth hits it all pretty much dead on and much more eloquently than I could.  The game had allure because it had so much sandbox potential, but it's suffered death by a thousand tiny nerfs.  A lot of people are starting to take a step back and see the move away from fun as a whole and are wondering why we still play.  I'm still finding gimmicks but the multi system killed things like roleplaying a farmer/ect because of "leeching".  I can barely be a pacifist anymore without people screaming for blood. 
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Rumblood on December 28, 2012, 01:08:37 am
Quote from: Azlanek on December 27, 2012, 11:53:23 pm
Smoothrich was talking about a completely different game that has nothing to do with cRPG. Here, let me quote it for you:

Now in this light the statement suddenly makes more sense:

Quote
Naturally most of my friends immediately began thinking of ways to deceive and grief people in-game

It illustrates a a major motivation for most of his friends. Deception and griefing. Many of the items he wants back were removed for that very reason.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Kafein on December 28, 2012, 01:12:09 am
Quote from: Azlanek on December 27, 2012, 10:45:16 pm
Letting the other person assume what you agree and don't agree with is not an efficient way of communicating with others. Taking others' needs, such as letting them know what you mean, is also a part of manners, which should be considered when making conversation with another. In not following them, you might risk angering the other person and drift the conversation from its original purpose.

I agree wholeheartedly, although what I depicted does happen very often on the internet, especially when there are dozens of people involved like in a forum.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: partyboy on December 28, 2012, 01:16:28 am
Maybe people would stop complaining if there were three set classes and only a small selection of weapon types for each.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Tindel on December 28, 2012, 01:21:21 am
Quote from: partyboy on December 28, 2012, 12:55:11 am
Smooth hits it all pretty much dead on and much more eloquently than I could.  The game had allure because it had so much sandbox potential, but it's suffered death by a thousand tiny nerfs.  A lot of people are starting to take a step back and see the move away from fun as a whole and are wondering why we still play.  I'm still finding gimmicks but the multi system killed things like roleplaying a farmer/ect because of "leeching".  I can barely be a pacifist anymore without people screaming for blood.

Maybe,  but to many of us its a competetive online pvp/deathmatch game. And the "sandbox" stuff ruins the experience.

I think this is a big divider in how the community percieve the game. And some are bound to be dissapointed no matter what.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Jarlek on December 28, 2012, 01:23:38 am
Quote from: partyboy on December 28, 2012, 01:16:28 am
Maybe people would stop complaining if there were three set classes and only a small selection of weapon types for each.
Only if the set classes changed depending on if which (in-game) team you were in. So Blue team has different class options than Red team etc.

Then we could make the teams culture based too! One being archer focus, another cavalry focused etc. This is genious!

Oh, but we would also have to limit the equipment people can spawn with. I say it should depend on how well you did the previous round.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Kafein on December 28, 2012, 01:24:53 am
Quote from: Zapper on December 28, 2012, 01:23:38 am
Only if the set classes changed depending on if which (in-game) team you were in. So Blue team has different class options than Red team etc.

Then we could make the teams culture based too! One being archer focus, another cavalry focused etc. This is genious!

Oh, but we would also have to limit the equipment people can spawn with. I say it should depend on how well you did the previous round.

Sadly, that is the direction cRPG is heading since january 2011 and I'll keep ranting blah
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: marco1391 on December 28, 2012, 01:46:24 am
from someone who played since august 2010(the heirloom patch came like 1/2 months after I started playing the game)yeah battle was incredibly hilarious with a lot of different retarded builds and people trolling with a meta still not evolved(I remember when I was like a level 28 archer and I was still getting k/d of 3 becouse of the massive imbalance with ranged being retardedly strong and plates spam)
but I still think chadz managed to save this mod with the heirloom patch and 3 month later the upkeep patch/level31 "cap" giving this game an unexpected lenght in term of playtime(and hopefully this mod will stay alive until m&b2)so kudos to him
btw I re-found this while searching for old crpg vids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNOogINr7Eg
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Joseph Porta on December 28, 2012, 02:40:45 am
Quote from: Zapper on December 28, 2012, 01:23:38 am
Only if the set classes changed depending on if which (in-game) team you were in. So Blue team has different class options than Red team etc.

Then we could make the teams culture based too! One being archer focus, another cavalry focused etc. This is genious!

Oh, but we would also have to limit the equipment people can spawn with. I say it should depend on how well you did the previous round.

(click to show/hide)
but people will never stop complaining either :P I doubt it is even possible to balance an armory of this size to everyones liking..
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Miley on December 28, 2012, 02:45:29 am
Quote from: TiberiusX on December 27, 2012, 09:39:46 pm
That randomness you knew and loved so much will not solve squat.  Your suggestions filled with buffs, nerfs and adding more stuff will not bring *the good old days* back. If the basic gamemechanic is the same, if the grinding is basically the same and if all the classes still somewhat exsist there is little profit to be had by bringing the old crpg back.

Miley I highly doubt you seriuslly think, that bringing that randomness back would give you lots of more months filled with enjoyment in this mod. Id give you a week, tops, till you either start calling bullshit on many balancingissues or you just get bored like with this crpg.

An example: Its like me(and my mates) and the PW mod. We got sick of it a year ago, nomatter how much stuff they added and things they putted in there since then, we dont want to play it anymore. We know its wastly improved and more fun than the times when we played it, but we are just sick of it entirely. Its normally the basic gameplay that bores us, not the stuff, not the classes and not the maps.

You obviously did not read what I had to say, therefore I stopped reading what you had to say. So please read what I had to say again. Maybe English is not your Native language so you're no completely understanding what I said...
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Tibe on December 28, 2012, 05:02:25 am
Mkay than Sir notbeingabletomakeaclearunderstandablepoint
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Miley on December 28, 2012, 06:32:23 am
Quote from: TiberiusX on December 28, 2012, 05:02:25 am
Mkay than Sir notbeingabletomakeaclearunderstandablepoint

Case closed. You used than instead of then. Tsk tsk...
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Tibe on December 28, 2012, 06:37:20 am
Quote from: Miley on December 28, 2012, 06:32:23 am
Case closed. You used than instead of then. Tsk tsk...

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Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Dionysus on December 28, 2012, 07:07:30 pm
Quote from: Templar_Ratigan on December 27, 2012, 03:00:25 pm
It went wrong the second people started becoming entitled ego-pigs, bloated on their own sense of self-importance.

Ive always been annoyed at the sheer arrogance of the player base. This ridiculous ideal of difficulty only within ones style of play and all others are easy by comparison and should therefore be reduced so as not to pop the precious ego of the self.

Im tired of the sheer torrent of abuse you receive if you even so much as deviate from the masses. It's really fucking pathetic.

As a relatively new player to the community, this is the most troubling issue with cRPG to me. No one deserves to be criticized for the way they play a video game unless they are abusing bugs or hacking. I can't say much for the old cRPG since I did not even have a computer powerful enough to run Mount & Blade until 2011, but if this community were focused more on having fun than boosting egos, I'm sure we would have much more fun.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Yachdiel on December 28, 2012, 10:58:13 pm
I wholeheartedly feel that the defining "fun" factor that oldcRPG carried was the individuality factor. Back then you built your character as you played based on how you felt you can most benefit the battle. I started as a 1hander but picked up polearm along the way so I could use a spear to aid my other shielders. Now, its the same cookie-cutter builds everywhere with varying levels of skill. And in a money making system that doesn't force you into a moshpit of fighting, skill is the defining characteristic, not the balance individuality and teamwork.

I love current and old cRPG. I'm not saying go back, because that's how one moves forward. I just say try bringing back a few characteristic today to make a great mod greater.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Miley on December 28, 2012, 11:23:49 pm
Quote from: Yachdiel on December 28, 2012, 10:58:13 pm
I wholeheartedly feel that the defining "fun" factor that oldcRPG carried was the individuality factor. Back then you built your character as you played based on how you felt you can most benefit the battle. I started as a 1hander but picked up polearm along the way so I could use a spear to aid my other shielders. Now, its the same cookie-cutter builds everywhere with varying levels of skill. And in a money making system that doesn't force you into a moshpit of fighting, skill is the defining characteristic, not the balance individuality and teamwork.

I love current and old cRPG. I'm not saying go back, because that's how one moves forward. I just say try bringing back a few characteristic today to make a great mod greater.

This is basically what I said, but Tiberius did not understand.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: partyboy on December 28, 2012, 11:29:48 pm
We used to have fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNOogINr7Eg
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Yachdiel on December 28, 2012, 11:33:54 pm
Quote from: Miley on December 28, 2012, 11:23:49 pm
This is basically what I said, but Tiberius did not understand.

It's where the whole randomness factor came from. The gameplay fostered the ability to be different and effective. It wasn't just ladderpults that made people laugh, it was the fact that the game made the community light enough to take it as funny. Remember that Black armored guy with the Straw hat and the board shield who was a career thrower? That was funny, and effective... can't recall his name. Remember the ninjas that hid in the bushes and could ambush archers? That was something you could make of your character. The circularity of the battlemovement made it possible, and when you did it no one got mega pissed, some even laughed. Zisa got me a lot with that.

Now if you tried that, you would need a certain 2H build to do enough damage against the archers carrying their own 2H, and also you would be seen leaving the bushes as no one is focused on 1 area of battle. And you would probably be slow with your build, and cav would pick you up before you even flanked in time.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Gristle on December 29, 2012, 12:05:50 am
Quote from: partyboy on December 28, 2012, 11:29:48 pm
We used to have fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNOogINr7Eg

This is clearly exploiting and no one is having fun here.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: chadz on December 29, 2012, 12:29:25 am
I partially agree, partially disagree:

I disagree on the ladder issue. Lifting up teammates with ladders and causing them to fall to death is not a "witty" way to play the game. It's the same as teamkilling at spawn and patting yourself on the back for figuring out this creative way of playing.

Lifting up enemies to kill them is indeed fun, but has no place in a "serious" gamemode like battle. It could be put into a separate one, though.

I agree on the need for a more sandboxy gamemode. I think that sandbox games are the holy grail of gaming. I don't believe mixing battle with sandbox stuff works though, because some like it fair and serious, some like it goofy. The problem for those that like to "grief" is usually that they dont want to do that to other griefers. They want to do it to the serious players for maximum impact (excuse the pun). Players don't need griefers, but griefers need players. This is why creating a grief only gamemode would not work, because the griefers would be sad that no players would be there to be griefed.

That doesnt mean it's not possible to create a gamemode that allows for a combination of sandbox+competition, though.



The reason for topics like this, though, is that the cRPG playerbase is not very homogenous. I am happy about that, knowing that the game is diverse enough to attract different kinds of players, but ofc it also makes stuff more complicated. Regarding ladders: iirc 70% wanted them gone, I bowed to the majority.

Regarding streamlining balance: no one plays a game for long where the gameplay balance is totally broken. Thats fun for some time, but eventually people start figuring out the "best" builds and the entire diversity is gone, probably with the majority of players. Claiming that OP weapons or chars would have in any way helped the mod to stay fun is simply very naive.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Teeth on December 29, 2012, 12:39:13 am
Quote from: chadz on December 29, 2012, 12:29:25 am
Regarding ladders: iirc 70% wanted them gone, I bowed to the majority.
The other 30% was NA which never got past the ladderpulting stage and never figured out that ladders could give ranged an advantage.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Gristle on December 29, 2012, 12:57:22 am
What about ladders on Siege? Why can't those be brought back? Many of the old Siege maps were made with player placed ladders in mind, and the removal of ladders really hurt that game mode.

Quote from: Teeth on December 29, 2012, 12:39:13 am
The other 30% was NA which never got past the ladderpulting stage and never figured out that ladders could give ranged an advantage.

No, we just didn't think is was such an unfair advantage, and it certainly wasn't worth losing ladders all together.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: partyboy on December 29, 2012, 01:53:08 am
I usually have something to say about ladders but it seems to have slipped my mind.  Hmm, what could it have been?
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Casimir on December 29, 2012, 02:17:43 am
I agree, terrible things have been done to cRPG in the name of balance.

However, if the devs had taken the hard line approach of never responding to forum whine i wonder whether the mod would still be running.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on December 29, 2012, 03:16:04 am
I agree with your gameplay philosophy Smooth, though I must say old cRPG was a fucking unbalanced grindfest of proportions significant enough to prompt daily bouts of anal bleeding.

Regarding Thine Philosophy
The things that one might associate with Strategus now are those that, I think, should be brought back to battle and siege. Creativity, player-driven, cooperation, sandbox, fun, competitive, high risk-reward (for a video game...related to competitive), epic.

When the ebb and flow of a game is dependent on the players, rather than map design and gameplay limitations, I think that that game (if it is a multiplayer one) becomes something wondrous!

I think that part of Battle's kinda boring repetitiveness comes from the lack of shit that you can do. Your goal is simple: kill all of the other team's players. That's fine--lots of room for Creative Solutions (TM). However the tools you're given for that task get boring fast. The number of weapons and classes are pretty much limited. The maps don't change. The rounds are short. You can't build shit.

The two biggest issues, I think, are:
a) You can't build shit. The bestest player-driven games I've played have often included the ability to build shit during the game. Star Wars Combine is a simulation that's all about building shit on planets or asteroids (and trade, and interactions); Natural Selection allowed the commander to build where, when, and what he or she wanted--the players had to build the shit up, and defend it, and attack the other team's shit; Empires was like Natural Selection: a commander built shit for his team. I played Empire Earth because the "Diplomacy" mode allowed players to war with whom they wanted, build where/what they wanted, and--if they wanted to--just sit back and build a pretty, gay city. My point is that built entities allow the players to alter the map in fun and unique ways, making the game much more dynamic. Let players build shit, while keeping balance in mind (maybe switch "attackers" and "defending" teams up, to prevent camping.
b) Rounds vs Deathmatch. The current system of Rounds means that everything has to happen within maybe five minutes. Otherwise, players sitting in their chairs start to get fucking bored. Make the Battle a deathmatch mode, with timed rounds that are long enough. Give players enough time to fucking get some creative, fun shit done.
 Deathmatch and object-based gameplay usually go hand in hand, however it might be worth it to just try regular Deathmatch for a while, and simply give the players the ability to build and do fun shit at first. You can add objectives later.


TL;DR: READ THE BOLD AND ITALICS. chadz, let us build shit, and give us the time to build shit. Add other things, liek classes or weapons, after this necessary step.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Tibe on December 29, 2012, 07:17:44 am
Quote from: Miley on December 28, 2012, 11:23:49 pm
This is basically what I said, but Tiberius did not understand.
....ohhh really? What Yach said acctually made sense and was wise, what you posted was different........example:
Quote from: Miley on December 27, 2012, 08:33:16 am
(click to show/hide)


Looking back at that post there were quite many who didnt understand what you mean. I posted the exact reply to it. Next time make your point more clear and dont call others fools when you have issues speaking your mind in words too big for you.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Chestaclese on December 29, 2012, 07:22:45 am
Proximity xp was brilliant. I have no idea why they ever got rid of that. It was the simplest way to force people to fight in groups and it fucked over any ranged players that took up perches miles away. Proximity xp made playing as a peasant a lot of fun too. There use to be tactics to being a peasant like wearing clothing that made you look like anything but a peasant and then there were also slick players that would purposely dress like a peasant to lure it retards looking for an easy kill haha.

I think the most fun I had was when we created a ninja turtle clan. We dumped everything into shield skill, held up inside small buildings, and inconvenienced people by hugging them with our shields so they couldn't swing. Sometimes we would get put on separate teams and the game would be to some how get to the safety of the turtles on the other team without their team killing you.

Before they took out ladders another fun game to play was lemmings on Siege. The point of the game was to create a great ladder bridge to the flag that all your teammates want to use.

Eh, forgot to mention throwing. I understand the first nerf, I mean everyone was carrying throwing weapons but I thought the second nerf was excessive. There is just no way to have a pure throwing build in the current game, especially if you play stratagus.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Smoothrich on December 29, 2012, 09:52:05 am
Quote from: chadz on December 29, 2012, 12:29:25 am
I partially agree, partially disagree:

(click to show/hide)

Thanks for reading.

Ladderpaulting in battle as it was is basically teamkilling and griefing sure, but if you saw it go off perfectly placed (against the enemy team) at the start of a completely packed XP bridge map you would die in laugher just thinking about it.  It was so funny in its own wacky way I miss it terribly and if it could be re-enabled in a new gametype more conductive to building it would be great.  Ladders would have their place in modes that didn't come down to being last alive every 4 minutes though for sure.

Completely agree about battle.  Truthfully you guys did a fantastic job balancing battle for what it is, but in the process a lot of gold got thrown out with the trash.  Why I suggested a few times in the thread that an ideal way to bring back some of these trends and address these urges players get would be for a new game mode that had longer-lasting rounds and the full toolbox of construction sites and ladders enabled.  Possibly new additions as they are thought up.  I think Conquest type is a great fit for having a focus on battle and killing along with being able to build defenses, explore the map with buddies, not get raged at or banned for not being hellbent on killing with 15+ minute long maps.

I actually quite enjoy Battle when I play, but it simply doesn't hold a candle to Strategus battles in my experience.   The nature of a long map with lots of little victories or huge defeats, a focus on building and teamwork, respawns, some of the best maps in cRPG (some of the towns are brilliant and never get played), its all good stuff.  Too bad there's the rest of Strategus to deal with :(

With the creativity and talent some of the devs have though (see fucking Rageball, holy shit) I bet something even more unique could be coded if there was effort and time for it, but I'm at a loss of what.  Never got to play Stronghold, what I heard seemed rather complicated and obtuse though, but it seemed like an awesome idea at least.

With balance, I'm fine with the stats and have certainly lobbied to nerf plenty myself (compile items so poleaxe is nerfed already!).  More the issue here was nerfing gameplay in general with the mechanics changes.  Turn-rate was the most egregious.  Could be lame but more understandable if it was applied to certain weapons like pikes and mauls or whatever, but the way it was implemented is just really disappointing.  Most of us play cRPG cuz of the outstanding Warband engine, in a game maintained and balanced by active people who know what they're doing.  This basically gutted half the attack directions of EVERY weapon in the game, new thrust abuse mechanics cropped up, tons of popular weapons are almost unused, and its just sluggish and unfun to play.

I also kind of wish the leveling cap was softened.  Possibly XP gain just increased overall.  I like the game being balanced but level 30 for most players makes builds underpowered hybrids (unless cav or xbow) or cookie cutter templates of optimal power.  High levels and more skill points can fix these things but leveling is so outrageously slow past 31 and respecs so costly.  If people had more points to play with things would be more interesting.  Then again, OP builds would become optimal builds, and underpowered hybrids would remain relatively underpowered I suppose : \  But its worth mentioning that 30 soft cap is kind of dulling.

Compile items! :D
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Casimir on December 29, 2012, 01:47:20 pm
this thread is far to logical and thought out, what have you done with smoothrich, locked him up only to let loose on the diplomacy forums?
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: LordBerenger on December 29, 2012, 03:29:44 pm
Quote from: Casimir on December 29, 2012, 01:47:20 pm
this thread is far to logical and thought out, what have you done with smoothrich, locked him up only to let loose on the diplomacy forums?

As long as Canary is on vacation too/tired to check Diplomacy section. Diplomacy is the best sub-forums.


Oh and re-implement ladders now into Battle and/or Siege.

Most ones who voted yes to remove it are gone now or are busy spergin out in Guild Wars 2, Planetside 2 or some other game.

Just make a new poll and make it the final decision.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Lepintoi on December 29, 2012, 04:04:24 pm
yes bring back ladders!

PS Norules u werent there man, so shut up
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: partyboy on December 29, 2012, 10:33:25 pm
The timer at the top is the countdown to ladders being brought back.
Title: Re: cRPG and Emergent Gaming (And Fun): Where It Went Wrong
Post by: Lordark on December 29, 2012, 11:01:09 pm
bring conquest mooode :!: