cRPG

Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: Miley on December 15, 2012, 07:28:46 pm

Title: Question For EUs
Post by: Miley on December 15, 2012, 07:28:46 pm
Did you guys hear about the shooting at an elementary school over there? I'm just wondering.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Osiris on December 15, 2012, 07:29:21 pm
ofc. we have news channels you know :D (with actual world news)
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Miley on December 15, 2012, 07:33:24 pm
I think it's about time the US gets some better gun laws...
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Lamk on December 15, 2012, 07:35:53 pm
I think it's about time the US gets some better gun laws...

You should do like Canada, we never have these problems
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Osiris on December 15, 2012, 07:36:39 pm
an american posted this pic on facebook

(click to show/hide)

he got hated on lots
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Tibe on December 15, 2012, 07:36:43 pm
Yes. And the internetcomments in those articles are all basically antiamerican for some reason. Comments like: "Did Obama cry for those kids who got blown to bits by those US drones in Afganistan?" etc etc. Pretty fucked up country I live in, "Screw the West, screw the East, screw our country, screw everything!" But I quess its pretty common everywere these days....with the economy in the dump and everything.  :?
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Miley on December 15, 2012, 07:38:50 pm
Guns don't kill people, other people do. Walk in a mall during rush hour with a simple knife and you can do same.

No you can't kill 27 people as easy with a knife.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Leshma on December 15, 2012, 07:41:35 pm
It's your right to own a gun :wink:

What you guys need is to steal all the money from cowboys and marginalize them and their politics. That could help USA.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Latvian on December 15, 2012, 07:41:46 pm
i dont listen to that crap  it happens too offten. World is realy coming down to its end
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Miley on December 15, 2012, 07:44:26 pm
I would also like to know why it is always men doing the killing.

I don't understand why anyone would ever deliberately kill people, especially children and mass killings... (and his own mother)
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: _GTX_ on December 15, 2012, 07:46:23 pm
Well........ Its not the gun that kills people, its the guy with the gun in his hand.

Edit: Ofc u can argue for the case, that it is way easier with a gun.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Leshma on December 15, 2012, 07:48:43 pm
I would also like to know why it is always men doing the killing.

Maybe because men are unable to give life and deep inside they value it less than women. Yes there are female killers but they are a lot less common. And it's not just because men are generally stronger or bullshit like that.

If you want my opinion, there will be the time when females will surpass men in most areas, becoming the "superior" gender. 
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: wayyyyyne on December 15, 2012, 07:49:20 pm
This obivously wouldn't have happend if kids in elementary schools had accsess to firearms.

You don't need gun restriciton you need more freedum!
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Falka on December 15, 2012, 07:50:20 pm
I'm a sociopath, I don't give a flying fuck.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Osiris on December 15, 2012, 07:52:57 pm
obviously the guy with the gun kills the people that response/excuse is tired and old ^^


For some reason many Americans think that all hell will break loose and descend into anarchy if they are not allowed to own a gun.

The excuse that only criminals would have guns and that we are all safer if we all have guns is clearly bs as every statistic shows :D
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 15, 2012, 07:53:27 pm
Pretty fucked up country I live in, "Screw the West, screw the East, screw our country, screw everything!" But I quess its pretty common everywere these days....with the economy in the dump and everything.  :?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Miley on December 15, 2012, 07:54:02 pm
I don't see how anyone would get joy from killing people (unless they keep killing you on cRPG). (JOKE)
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Haboe on December 15, 2012, 07:55:26 pm
Its being covered in holland, keeps us updated as more info comes available.


Guns don't kill people, other people do. Walk in a mall during rush hour with a simple knife and you can do same.

There is a reason why guns beat knifes in a war, you kill much more with them.

Give a moron a butterknife and he might kill a man, give a moron a machinegun and he might kill 30 ppl...
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Leshma on December 15, 2012, 07:57:24 pm
Quote
Well in my country it seems like it is more like "Screw our country, lets help everyone but our own", we get called racists because we think that it is bad that immigrants get bonuses over our own unemployed people.

Oops maybe im derailing this into a politics discussion now, been watching too much of it right now.. -_-

Which country is that? How high is unemployment rate? Because I think that jobless people in countries with unemployment rate of 5% or so are lazy people who don't want to work.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: wayyyyyne on December 15, 2012, 07:59:44 pm
Its being covered in holland, keeps us updated as more info comes available.


There is a reason why guns beat knifes in a war, you kill much more with them.

Give a moron a butterknife and he might kill a man, give a moron a machinegun and he might kill 30 ppl...

yeah seriously. You can do so much more damage with a gun where all you have to do is pull a trigger.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: _GTX_ on December 15, 2012, 08:03:02 pm
I don't see how anyone would get joy from killing people (unless they keep killing you on cRPG). (JOKE)
Well obv they do :P. It might be some kind of power trip they have going, being able to completely control somebody's life.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Doppel on December 15, 2012, 08:03:50 pm
The answer to the gun question is simple: Moar guns!
Especially for children. Give them the right to carry weapons in school so that they can kill an attacker.

- with friendly greetings a typical defender of the gun-laws in America who thinks that a lot of guns mean a lot of protection
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Miley on December 15, 2012, 08:05:23 pm
The answer to the gun question is simple: Moar guns!
Especially for children. Give them the right to carry weapons in school so that they can kill an attacker.

- with friendly greetings a typical defender of the gun-laws in America who thinks that a lot of guns mean a lot of protecion

I don't see how giving kids guns in elementary school could be good... or any kids AT school.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Leshma on December 15, 2012, 08:05:33 pm
In that case, for best protection everyone should own an atomic bomb. To be able to defend himself :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 15, 2012, 08:05:42 pm
Which country is that? How high is unemployment rate? Because I think that jobless people in countries with unemployment rate of 5% or so are lazy people who don't want to work.

Sweden, dont have any statistics but i know the unemployment is there.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Tibe on December 15, 2012, 08:06:54 pm
Frankly if I compare my country with USA. Than its gunpolitics seem better. Simply cause in my country, you might even get sued for simply even owning a firearm. Sure the streets are safer, but the thiefs really do not give a shit. I mean, if you see someone robbing your house you would probably shoot the ass or scare him away. But oh no, not in this country. In this country we have to wait for the police for 20 min to show up and watch how the burglar robs your stuff and runs into the night with it. You cant even basically put your hands on him.

I remember I had a discussion about it with an old man I knew. He basically said, that the incredebly strict gunlaw here is bullshit. That yea, retards wont get a gun legally,  but if a retard really wants a gun that bad, he can easly get it. Same as driving, if a retard really wants to drive a car, he probably gets his hands on it, wether the law premits it or not.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: KingBread on December 15, 2012, 08:08:01 pm
I don't see how giving kids guns in elementary school could be good... or any kids AT school.
Thats sarcasm mate...

Back on topic yes it's covered in Poland. And yes everybody is wondering why you are not banning guns right now. I read that not a single politic even mentioned this. You surelly will die as a nation if you will have ban guns.

You = USAtians

Ofc it is much better to have guns banned and hard to get.
Frankly if I compare my country with USA. Than its gunpolitics seem better. Simply cause in my country, you might even get sued for simply even owning a firearm. Sure the streets are safer, but the thiefs really do not give a shit. I mean, if you see someone robbing your house you would probably shoot the ass or scare him away. But oh no, not in this country. In this country we have to wait for the police for 20 min to show up and watch how the burglar robs your stuff and runs into the night with it. You cant even basically put your hands on him.

I remember I had a discussion about it with an old man I knew. He basically said, that the incredebly strict gunlaw here is bullshit. That yea, retards wont get a gun legally,  but if a retard really wants a gun that bad, he can easly get it. Same as driving, if a retard really wants to drive a car, he probably gets his hands on it, wether the law premits it or not.
How many times exactly you saw thieft robbing your home and you stand there and watch ? Do you think that your TV is worth more than theft life?

Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Arrowblood on December 15, 2012, 08:08:17 pm

Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Doppel on December 15, 2012, 08:10:44 pm
I don't see how giving kids guns in elementary school could be good... or any kids AT school.

That's the point. I just wanted to show how stupid the argument of the weapon-lovers in the USA is. They often say that weapons help to protect themselves.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Haboe on December 15, 2012, 08:13:37 pm
Frankly if I compare my country with USA. Than its gunpolitics seem better. Simply cause in my country, you might even get sued for simply even owning a firearm. Sure the streets are safer, but the thiefs really do not give a shit. I mean, if you see someone robbing your house you would probably shoot the ass or scare him away. But oh no, not in this country. In this country we have to wait for the police for 20 min to show up and watch how the burglar robs your stuff and runs into the night with it. You cant even basically put your hands on him.

I remember I had a discussion about it with an old man I knew. He basically said, that the incredebly strict gunlaw here is bullshit. That yea, retards wont get a gun legally,  but if a retard really wants a gun that bad, he can easly get it. Same as driving, if a retard really wants to drive a car, he probably gets his hands on it, wether the law premits it or not.

Im taking holland for an example.

Guns are prohibited here. If you want a gun from the black market, will cost ya 2000-5000 for a simple pistol.
If you are so fucking poor that you have to rob ppl, you don't have a gun.

Result: here burglars barely carry firearms, where in NA you hear about armed robbery's a lot since every fucker has a gun there.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Kafein on December 15, 2012, 08:13:46 pm
That is covered everywhere. Cuz USA dem violent people with guns. Also, more people died in a boat trying to cross the mediterranean, but that was just a one liner on my news channel.

Here in Belgium we had someone firing an assault rifle and throwing grenades at people in Liege, just over a year ago. Grenades !

Admittedly that doesn't even happen twice a century here. But we have more mothers gutting their 5 children.


(...) dont have any statistics but i know (...)

No...
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 15, 2012, 08:18:46 pm

No...

:)

Well now i googled it and it says that between 15-24 years old swedes it is around 22% hmm..
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: cmp on December 15, 2012, 08:19:52 pm
In that case, for best protection everyone should own an atomic bomb. To be able to defend himself :rolleyes:

This is not a bad idea, actually.
I mean, atomic bombs don't kill people, the guy who detonates them does.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Leshma on December 15, 2012, 08:21:07 pm
Sweden, dont have any statistics but i know the unemployment is there.

Well, if it's higher than 10% thats a bit alarming. In my country unemployment rate is like in Spain, 25%...

This is how I look on that issue:

In developed western countries with unemployment rate of 4-6%, economy is very healthy, offering a lot of opportunities. It's not that hard to find a place under the sun for yourself in that kind of environment. Because of that, country is able to spend money on social programs for its own citizens who are unable to work. But many abuse those programs. Because of that and current situation in the world many countries decided to give a chance to foreign people who lived in countries that are in war. To give them chance for a better life.

Now there are same social programs for both residents and immigrants. At first they are the same, living at country's expense. But those immigrants have to live like that, because they don't speak language and are unable to work. After certain period they are supposed to somewhat assimilate and start working. In theory, those people can prove to be much more useful to country than those lazy residents who want to live from money they get from state.

Problem is that many immigrants started doing the same as lazy residents. Now, some of them are no different except that resident think they are better because they are born in that country. No one likes foreigners, because they are aliens. People are generally afraid of what they don't understand.

That's definitely not one sided issue, although many residents of those developed countries believe it is. Globalization comes with a price.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Tibe on December 15, 2012, 08:21:39 pm
Good idea imo. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Miley on December 15, 2012, 08:24:15 pm
This is not a bad idea, actually.
I mean, atomic bombs don't kill people, the guy who detonates them does.

+1
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Berserkadin on December 15, 2012, 08:24:40 pm
Innocent people get shot, murdered and fucked up everyday, all around the world. I don't see over 9000 articles about that. Why the hell should I give even a slightly more shit about what happens in 'murica? A sick society creates sick people.

Sweden, unemployment 7,5%ish, youth unemployment around 22-23%.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Leshma on December 15, 2012, 08:29:05 pm
:)

Well now i googled it and it says that between 15-24 years old swedes it is around 22% hmm..

Here is 80% for 15-28 years old, I think...

15-24 go to school and later to university. No wonder they don't work lol

Edit: I'm wrong on this one.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: bilwit on December 15, 2012, 08:33:24 pm
Some people are just really fucked up in the head. If they have it in their mind that they're going to do something, they'll find a way to do it whether or not there are laws that facilitates them to procure whatever weapon they plan on using. Who's to say that if there had been a ban on guns that shooters like this wouldn't have acquired them through the black market or even do something equally horrific like go on a serial murder spree using any other non-firearm weapon. They could just as easily go on the internet and look up how to make a home made bomb using stuff from radio shack and walmart if they really wanted to. Heck a few buddies of mine made an auto-targeting turret that fired an electro-magnetic powered gun made from scratch (some wood, power source, coil, laptop, and a webcam) for a school project..
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Berserkadin on December 15, 2012, 08:34:12 pm
Here is 80% for 15-28 years old, I think...

15-24 go to school and later to university. No wonder they don't work lol
As far as I know, people who are studying arent counted as being unemployed.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Leshma on December 15, 2012, 08:35:26 pm
Yeah, you're right. My bad.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Emotion on December 15, 2012, 08:36:49 pm
Nooooo point for a civilian to own an assault weapon. In the near future assault weapons will be against the law to own.
Mark my words. ;]
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Tindel on December 15, 2012, 08:37:14 pm
people dont care anymore about americans killing each other, it always turn into guncontrol and laughing at their clueless replies. I think in time they will figure it out
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Berserkadin on December 15, 2012, 08:37:33 pm
Nooooo point for a civilian to own an assault weapon. In the near future assault weapons will be against the law to own.
Mark my words. ;]
Are you Obama?
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Osiris on December 15, 2012, 08:38:20 pm
Well, if it's higher than 10% thats a bit alarming. In my country unemployment rate is like in Spain, 25%...

This is how I look on that issue:

In developed western countries with unemployment rate of 4-6%, economy is very healthy, offering a lot of opportunities. It's not that hard to find a place under the sun for yourself in that kind of environment. Because of that, country is able to spend money on social programs for its own citizens who are unable to work. But many abuse those programs. Because of that and current situation in the world many countries decided to give a chance to foreign people who lived in countries that are in war. To give them chance for a better life.

Now there are same social programs for both residents and immigrants. At first they are the same, living at country's expense. But those immigrants have to live like that, because they don't speak language and are unable to work. After certain period they are supposed to somewhat assimilate and start working. In theory, those people can prove to be much more useful to country than those lazy residents who want to live from money they get from state.

Problem is that many immigrants started doing the same as lazy residents. Now, some of them are no different except that resident think they are better because they are born in that country. No one likes foreigners, because they are aliens. People are generally afraid of what they don't understand.

That's definitely not one sided issue, although many residents of those developed countries believe it is. Globalization comes with a price.

its not the fact that foreign people come to our country that annoys people its the fact they come here and work for less money.

I'm an electrician and there are very few foreigners who come here and do that job due to qualifications but people who say do plasterboard or plastering etc are nearly now only foreigners. They used to come here for 4-5 years earning money and living in poor and cramped housing then taking it home and being better off. That's great for them :D they earn more money here and can build a house back home etc etc.
The problem comes when the native workers in those industries get priced out and have to work for much lower wages to compete while having a higher living cost. That breeds the dislike not the actual people :D
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Emotion on December 15, 2012, 08:40:42 pm
Are you Obama?

No. I'm The Truth.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: pingpong on December 15, 2012, 08:40:49 pm
This is pretty fucked up, and still there are people in US who think its the oppressive government trying to take their guns away that they should be afraid of, when in reality its the next door neighbour with 12 gauge and semiauto M16 who gets a bit loose in the head...
Civvies dont need guns, guns make both mentally and physically weak people feel empowered, which results in things like these.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: _GTX_ on December 15, 2012, 08:44:33 pm
Oh well, its USA's problem.

At some point they will open their eyes.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Berserkadin on December 15, 2012, 08:45:21 pm
its not the fact that foreign people come to our country that annoys people its the fact they come here and work for less money.

I'm an electrician and there are very few foreigners who come here and do that job due to qualifications but people who say do plasterboard or plastering etc are nearly now only foreigners. They used to come here for 4-5 years earning money and living in poor and cramped housing then taking it home and being better off. That's great for them :D they earn more money here and can build a house back home etc etc.
The problem comes when the native workers in those industries get priced out and have to work for much lower wages to compete while having a higher living cost. That breeds the dislike not the actual people :D
Well its the goddamn companies who profit from, who wants it, who likes it. And then you blame the immigrants ;)
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Leshma on December 15, 2012, 08:46:46 pm
its not the fact that foreign people come to our country that annoys people its the fact they come here and work for less money.

I'm an electrician and there are very few foreigners who come here and do that job due to qualifications but people who say do plasterboard or plastering etc are nearly now only foreigners. They used to come here for 4-5 years earning money and living in poor and cramped housing then taking it home and being better off. That's great for them :D they earn more money here and can build a house back home etc etc.
The problem comes when the native workers in those industries get priced out and have to work for much lower wages to compete while having a higher living cost. That breeds the dislike not the actual people :D

As I said, that is called globalization. People already do those jobs for way less money in China, for example. You can't expect anyone to pay you more just because you're born there and immigrant isn't. Real and rare knowledge still is payed very well.

Even Chinese started replacing their own, cheap workforce with robots.

Also, that immigrant worker wants the same wage as you have. But both you and him know he's not equal to you. He knows the job but there's no way in hell he'll get it over you if he asks for same wage. So he use the only tool he has at hands, price dumping.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Arathian on December 15, 2012, 08:52:24 pm
I think it's about time the US gets some better gun laws...

Agreed. Right now the US schools ban all forms of weaponry inside the school which means a random maniac can just walk in and shoot everybody.

Now, if teachers were trained on the use of firearms and were required to bring them with them at school, random shooting would essentially die off, or their impact would be much much lower.

This is pretty fucked up, and still there are people in US who think its the oppressive government trying to take their guns away that they should be afraid of, when in reality its the next door neighbour with 12 gauge and semiauto M16 who gets a bit loose in the head...
Civvies dont need guns, guns make both mentally and physically weak people feel empowered, which results in things like these.

So, when people ban guns, all the mentally deranged people who want to kill somebody/everybody, will act like good citizens and hand in their weapons....obviously.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Osiris on December 15, 2012, 08:52:54 pm
As I said, that is called globalization. People already do those jobs for way less money in China, for example. You can't expect anyone to pay you more just because you're born there and immigrant isn't. Real and rare knowledge still is payed very well.

Even Chinese started replacing their own, cheap workforce with robots.


and you cant expect people to be happy that others come and live in worse conditions to do the job cheaper for a few years then leave again ^^
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Leshma on December 15, 2012, 08:57:13 pm
I'm not expecting people to be happy or defending anyone, just explaining the situation from neutral perspective.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Casimir on December 15, 2012, 09:13:39 pm
blanket ban NA IRL?
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 15, 2012, 09:16:16 pm
Do you think that your TV is worth more than theft life?
Yes, I do believe my tv is worth more than the filthy piece of shit trying to take it from me, I believe my groceries are worth more than the guy trying to steal them.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Lannistark on December 15, 2012, 09:19:49 pm
Yeah, we all heard it. Sad news it is - not the first time someone goes nuts in the USA and picturises a massacre of civilians...
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Arathian on December 15, 2012, 09:24:22 pm
Yes, I do believe my tv is worth more than the filthy piece of shit trying to take it from me, I believe my groceries are worth more than the guy trying to steal them.

That isn't even the real question.

The question is: does one have the right to defend the property he earned by work?

And honestly, anyone who answers "no" to that question is an idiot.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 15, 2012, 09:26:00 pm
Also, without guns people can do just as fucked up things, it's just slightly harder for them to do it and a few idiots might fail.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Arathian on December 15, 2012, 09:27:57 pm
Also, without guns people can do just as fucked up things, it's just slightly harder for them to do it and a few idiots might fail.

You say "people without guns" like that is possible. Even in the worst police states, like England, one can EASILY find illegal weaponry. The only ones whom the laws disarm is the law-abbiding citizens.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 15, 2012, 09:33:19 pm
You say "people without guns" like that is possible. Even in the worst police states, like England, one can EASILY find illegal weaponry. The only ones whom the laws disarm is the law-abbiding citizens.
Of course, I meant in theory, anyone who wishes to do harm to another human being, is willing to die in the process, isn't completely idiotic, and doesn't talk about it, can accomplish it, a gun is just another way to accomplish said thing.

But banning guns from some places but allowing them in others is a horrible policy as well, I remember hearing a story somewhere, person goes into a restaurant, leaves his gun in his car due to a law, another guy goes in and starts shooting people.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Molly on December 15, 2012, 09:38:26 pm
That isn't even the real question.

The question is: does one have the right to defend the property he earned by work?

And honestly, anyone who answers "no" to that question is an idiot.
It's a question of proportionality. And everyone who thinks that taking a life for anything like a TV is fair game is the idiot!

[...]Comments like: "Did Obama cry for those kids who got blown to bits by those US drones in Afganistan?" [...]
Did he? Did anyone ever say sorry after a drone hit gone wild? After some soldiers pissed on dead people, piling prisoners naked on each other for a picture? Don't think anyone ever did but maybe I just missed that. If a whole country takes the moral high ground and fucks up like that... well, don't be surprised when everybody else starts to dislike you.

Hearing about 20 little kids, prolly not even 10 yrs old, getting shot by some random asshole... anyone not being shocked in the first moment should get some counselling - you have some serious issues! Same for people who actually believe that shooting someone who tries to steal the TV is "O.k." - issues, lot of them, right there. Though I guess those people are just some trolls who don't grasp the idea of a serious discussion and have/had parents who failed at raising them properly.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Belatu on December 15, 2012, 09:38:36 pm
In Spain is very full covered in newspapers, programs, radio, online media and television. And the people  is very sad and angry about the idea and talk about that a lot.

Most of the people thinks that guns should be forbidden as it is here. It helps a lot.
Here you cannot go to the street even with a knife in the pocket, only if it has less than a few centimeters (less than the distance to the heart if you stab somebody in the chest), or only for very plain purposes like submarining or hunting in the countryside.

The thing of "it is not the weapon it is the man" is false. Probably settled in the american washed brains by the weapon industry. Money > People.
If the guy get to the school with two big knifes instead of two guns probably not so many kids were dead, they could escape.
If the problem is not the weapon why not selling uber big bombs? As Cmp said in a post before , a post that I wwas going to write: That guy could have taken the mini-nuclear rocket that his grand father has in his panic room for self defense purposes and use it in the school. Then it could die like hundreds.
 
It is all about money. The lobby of the weapon industry wash your brains in all levels and everywhere (advertisin, tv programs, radio, media, films, child cartoons...) and fill the pockets of local and big governemts and so and so ....  :?

Also it helps the violent past of North America, but believe me, it was not wors than other countries in the recent past. So Personally, and lot of epople that i know thinks the same:
It is just the culture,  Money > People ,  And the shit word Freedom used like a whore for preserve the basic purpose of making money.
 :evil:
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 15, 2012, 09:46:54 pm
It's a question of proportionality. And everyone who thinks that taking a life for anything like a TV is fair game is the idiot!
Did he? Did anyone ever say sorry after a drone hit gone wild? After some soldiers pissed on dead people, piling prisoners naked on each other for a picture? Don't think anyone ever did but maybe I just missed that. If a whole country takes the moral high ground and fucks up like that... well, don't be surprised when everybody else starts to dislike you.

Hearing about 20 little kids, prolly not even 10 yrs old, getting shot by some random asshole... anyone not being shocked in the first moment should get some counselling - you have some serious issues! Same for people who actually believe that shooting someone who tries to steal the TV is "O.k." - issues, lot of them, right there. Though I guess those people are just some trolls who don't grasp the idea of a serious discussion and have/had parents who failed at raising them properly.
You're an idiot.
If I've worked for something, if I've earned something, and some waste of space comes along thinking he should leech off my labor then he can get shot for all I care, I do believe that any of the things I own, regardless of value, that I've worked for, are rightfully mine and that some parasite who attempts to take what is rightfully mine, does not deserve to exist.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: KingBread on December 15, 2012, 10:17:40 pm
Yes, I do believe my tv is worth more than the filthy piece of shit trying to take it from me, I believe my groceries are worth more than the guy trying to steal them.
I don't agree and i believe we have guns banned in Poland cos most people thinks simmilar
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Berserkadin on December 15, 2012, 10:56:38 pm
Property is theft, duh.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on December 15, 2012, 11:04:51 pm
an american posted this pic on facebook

(click to show/hide)

he got hated on lots

For reference on guns per capita: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

USA has about 60 times more people, 560 times more people murdered by guns and 2,5 times more guns per capita than Finland.

It shows that Americans should definately not have guns. Not because guns kill people, but because Americans kill people.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Leshma on December 15, 2012, 11:12:29 pm
Serbia is 2nd :(
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Tuonela on December 15, 2012, 11:41:21 pm
Yes, I do believe my tv is worth more than the filthy piece of shit trying to take it from me, I believe my groceries are worth more than the guy trying to steal them.

Shooting someone for a bag of groceries is a bit sick.  :| Maybe you could try to call the police and let them get those back, and no one would get hurt?

When someone does something wrong, the first answer shouldn't be to shoot the guy.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Berserkadin on December 15, 2012, 11:50:59 pm
Zlisch just adapted to the western view of money/property being more worth then human life. All our material prosperity is funded on the death and suffering of billions of people around the globe. Don't you dare steal his beloved TV, that he earned "fairly" :lol: I understand people killing other people over food and water when you're starving. But I guess its kinda the same, Zlisch soul is starving, and he thinks that more groceries, more shit, is what it needs, and he will kill to keep it.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: KingBread on December 15, 2012, 11:51:29 pm
You're an idiot.
If I've worked for something, if I've earned something, and some waste of space comes along thinking he should leech off my labor then he can get shot for all I care, I do believe that any of the things I own, regardless of value, that I've worked for, are rightfully mine and that some parasite who attempts to take what is rightfully mine, does not deserve to exist.
You just stated that you can kill for a bag of matches you earned. You are on a good way to go for a killing spree as well IMO cos you can imagine "they"(space wasters, goverment, 10 year old kids) took something you earned rightfully so its a valid reason to kill.

also this
Shooting someone for a bag of groceries is a bit sick.  :| Maybe you could try to call the police and let them get those back, and no one would get hurt?

When someone does something wrong, the first answer shouldn't be to shoot the guy.

I think that shooting somebody for money is sick no matter if its a tv or bag of grocery. I think that i need to agree that you USAtians got your brain washed deep by rifle associations or other bs.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Kafein on December 16, 2012, 12:02:15 am
That isn't even the real question.

The question is: does one have the right to defend the property he earned by work?

And honestly, anyone who answers "no" to that question is an idiot.

Someone stealing you is not putting your life in danger, if you are to use violence to stop that person, killing is not an option.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: LordBerenger on December 16, 2012, 12:37:33 am
It's not the gun laws that killed those innocent 6-7 year old children and teachers. It's the mentality and mind of that autistic kid. If you got a fucked up brain like him and like the ones in Columbine, Virginia Tech, Guy in Finland who posted that youtube vid before he went on his spree. Hell even The Führer, then nothing will stop you from getting what you want.

They can take harmful acid or whatever from chemistry at school and make their own kinds of weapons. The only limit is their insane damaged brains and their own creativity.



It's just sad seeing these young innocent kids being victims in this school shooting. Not like Columbine or other shooting where the main part where adults pretty much.


Edit: Really?

(click to show/hide)

What possible reasoning could he have killing these young innocent kids? His brain must've been severely damaged.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Berserkadin on December 16, 2012, 01:22:54 am
Kinda sad going for kids, why not do a killing spree on Wall Street and become a hero instead.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 16, 2012, 01:37:45 am
Zlisch just adapted to the western view of money/property being more worth then human life. All our material prosperity is funded on the death and suffering of billions of people around the globe. Don't you dare steal his beloved TV, that he earned "fairly" :lol: I understand people killing other people over food and water when you're starving. But I guess its kinda the same, Zlisch soul is starving, and he thinks that more groceries, more shit, is what it needs, and he will kill to keep it.
I do not believe that someone attempting to break into my private property should be allowed to, while I do not believe that a guy deserves to get killed for it then I do believe that if a guy would refuse to fuck off then yes, it makes a lot more sense to harm him than to let him wander off with whatever the hell he pleases.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Casimir on December 16, 2012, 02:49:36 am
Its easy to label all the blame on the fact hes autistic and leave it at that like berenger said, but thats ignoring the real problems behind this. There are plenty of people with illness like that all over the world who dont go around shooting up cinemas, school or religious buildings as has happened in the last year.  Yes the private health care systems put these people at higher risk but ultimately it is the accessibility to large amounts of powerful armaments that leads to these tradigies.  To simply say that hes 'fucked up' doesnt explain why something like this happens, although its true. Should we not ask why does someone who is unwell have access to these weapons directly or not, and why does anybody need these weapons in the first place? Semi auto rifles and 9mm handguns are above and beyond personal protection in my opinion.

There comes a time when the US will have to ask itself wich it values higher, the individuals right to life or to bear arms.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Andy on December 16, 2012, 03:29:28 am
Which country is that? How high is unemployment rate? Because I think that jobless people in countries with unemployment rate of 5% or so are lazy people who don't want to work.
Did you really just say that if you are unemployed then you're just to lazy to work? You obviously don't know much about the real world friend.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Weewum on December 16, 2012, 04:17:56 am
My opinion, as a concerned citizen on the gun laws, would be that, taking our guns was what lead to the American Revolution(Battles of Lexington and Concord)the amendment to give us the right to bear arms was not only, for personal security or service in a militia, but also to be able to rise up if the government became tyrannical.  Taking our guns is the first step to taking our freedom.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Abay on December 16, 2012, 04:27:15 am
all this issue is about self-control mechanism. if everyone accept all people can make mistakes, then no-one will see a reason for killing a human.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Malaclypse on December 16, 2012, 05:45:43 am
Let's take a look at 2009 in the United States. Gun related homicides are at around eleven thousand, with suicides bringing a further eleven thousand, and with accidents involving firearms being just under a thousand. We wind up with a total of around twenty-three thousand firearm related deaths, which is still ten thousand less than the thirty-three thousand people who died as a result of various automobile related deaths for that same year. These roadway affairs are deaths we give our consent to every time we use paved ground or operate a motor vehicle- for the convenience of our society as a whole, we give these lives in tribute.

We mourn and place flowers at the roadside, but we go on with our lives, not thinking for more than perhaps a moment to abolish the transportation system which enables (this is a key word) these deaths to happen. Unlike deaths caused by firearms, of course, most of these are not suicides or homicides but just accidents- and, in a way, that seems even worse. With homicides and suicides we can address the issue of mental health, economic struggle, and so on. With accidents we can.. try to make our tools safer, and still endorse needless deaths as necessary for American ease of living.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Tibe on December 16, 2012, 06:10:56 am
(click to show/hide)

I quess the most annoying part of amurican perspective is the fact that they see that 1st world born  people's lives are worth 100 times more than any other persons life in other sides of the globe. Seriuslly, anybody randomly born as a 1st world white person is probably the most luckiest bastard on the planet.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Belatu on December 16, 2012, 10:23:37 am
Taking our guns is the first step to taking our freedom.
freedom to kill

we give these lives in tribute.
Who? you?
If you lose your children or brother in a car accident you dont think in tributes


that seems even worse.
Is It worse an accident than a taking life of other person consciounsly? dude.


Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Arathian on December 16, 2012, 10:36:30 am
All right, here are some factoids. Make what you will with them:

-The country with the world's laxest gun restrictions is Switzerland. There are actual, real, civilian families that own tanks there.
-It is also one of the countries with the lowest crime rates in the world
-The crime rate is indeed very high in the USA
-However, the states with the highest violent crime are the states with the highest gun restrictions
-Conversly, the states with the lowest violent crime are the state with the lowest gun restrictions.
-The biggest school massacre in the US history was done in 1927 using home-made explosives, not guns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster)

Now, I might be a gun nut, but any reasonable human being might see a pattern in here...
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Artyem on December 16, 2012, 10:58:50 am
Why simply just commit suicide and be known as the sad sack that killed himself when I can go take down 20 other people and be popularized by the media and become an icon?  As Arathian said, gun laws have an oddly backward reflection on crime and violence, which means the issue is coming from another source.  People have speculated that the guy was mentally unstable, which is most likely very true.  The thing about it is that he probably would have just killed himself if he hadn't noticed that the media (FOX, CNN, etc) make a huge deal out of these kinds of things and blow them way out of proportion. Yes, killing almost twenty children is a pretty huge fucking thing but does it really need to be the largest news story of the year so far? No, it's depressing and using the tale of how one guy outright murdered eighteen or so school children below the grade of six is simply degrading and morally crippling to the families of said children.

People in the United States don't have the second amendment to go hunting, or to kill people breaking into their house, or to protect themselves from thugs.  It's in place because the US started out as what we would today call a terrorist group, the second amendment exists because American citizens were allowed to bear arms and form a militia to eliminate our own government.  People like to forget that the 1776 American War of Independence wasn't AMURICA fighting against English invaders, we were fighting our own government.  The right to bear arms still exists in the U.S in case revolting against our government becomes an essential and completely ideal subject again.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Kafein on December 16, 2012, 01:07:49 pm
enables


This is such a fucked up word.


Did you knew your computer enables online piracy ?



Also, guns don't make our lives easier. Guns don't save much lives, unlike cars (ambulances ? The economic power generated by motorized transportation and everything made possible with it ?).



-However, the states with the highest violent crime are the states with the highest gun restrictions

What are the highest gun restrictions ? How many of these violent crimes were actually done with firearms, how many of those firearms were obtained legally ? Those are the real questions.

Also, Switzerland isn't one of the countries with the lowest crime rates because the gun laws are laxist, duh. You know, I could show you graphs of the average temperature during the south african summer the same years as new rambo movie releases and make a correlation between the temperature and the size of rambo's shirt on the dvd case. Any reasonable human being would see a pattern here.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: KingBread on December 16, 2012, 01:08:43 pm
  The right to bear arms still exists in the U.S in case revolting against our government becomes an essential and completely ideal subject again.

Thats one of the most paranoic, egocentric, megalomanic idea and reason to have a gun imo.

Like if you can win with govermental tanks with your 9mm. Not mentioning other stuff. (so its megalomanic to believe that if you have pistol in home you can rebel against goverment any time and actually do sth)

And secondly as far as i know you live in democratic country and you can change president and other stuff by voting and you are doing it for centuries now. So why it would change?( here is where your paranoic mind come alive if you tryied to answer this question, you propablyy also use a lot of "THEM" in this answer)

In Poland we rebeled against communistic goverment that was under soviet russia protectorate withouth a single gun shot from rebel side. And this is how you do a succesfull rebelion.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Kafein on December 16, 2012, 01:16:45 pm
Thats one of the most paranoic, egocentric, megalomanic idea and reason to have a gun imo.

Like if you can win with govermental tanks with your 9mm. Not mentioning other stuff. (so its megalomanic to believe that if you have pistol in home you can rebel against goverment any time and actually do sth)

And secondly as far as i know you live in democratic country and you can change president and other stuff by voting and you are doing it for centuries now. So why it would change?( here is where your paranoic mind come alive if you tryied to answer this question, you propablyy also use a lot of "THEM" in this answer)

In Poland we rebeled against communistic goverment that was under soviet russia protectorate withouth a single gun shot from rebel side. And this is how you do a succesfull rebelion.

Honestly, the political world should always be afraid of a rebellion, even in democracies. Democratic governments seem to slowly slip down into less and less democratic ways. Also, history proved that democratic government types aren't more stable than others.

Admittedly, you don't really need many firearms to cause chaos.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Teeth on December 16, 2012, 01:17:46 pm
Let's take a look at 2009 in the United States. Gun related homicides are at around eleven thousand, with suicides bringing a further eleven thousand, and with accidents involving firearms being just under a thousand. We wind up with a total of around twenty-three thousand firearm related deaths, which is still ten thousand less than the thirty-three thousand people who died as a result of various automobile related deaths for that same year. These roadway affairs are deaths we give our consent to every time we use paved ground or operate a motor vehicle- for the convenience of our society as a whole, we give these lives in tribute.

We mourn and place flowers at the roadside, but we go on with our lives, not thinking for more than perhaps a moment to abolish the transportation system which enables (this is a key word) these deaths to happen. Unlike deaths caused by firearms, of course, most of these are not suicides or homicides but just accidents- and, in a way, that seems even worse. With homicides and suicides we can address the issue of mental health, economic struggle, and so on. With accidents we can.. try to make our tools safer, and still endorse needless deaths as necessary for American ease of living.
Holy shit that is some amazing bullshit.

But, hey, atleast Americans are probably best equipped to deal with a zombie apocalypse.

In Poland we rebeled against communistic goverment that was under soviet russia protectorate withouth a single gun shot from rebel side. And this is how you do a succesfull rebelion.
Yeah worked perfectly in Prague in 1968 as well.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Miwiw on December 16, 2012, 01:27:41 pm
194 in Germany. I'm not even sure how to get a gun... :P
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: KingBread on December 16, 2012, 01:34:58 pm

Yeah worked perfectly in Prague in 1968 as well.
Not saying it allways work. But armed rebellions don't have higher succes rate.

Spcially when you think about it in USA way. I have assalut rifle goverment have tanks but yet i can overthrow them with my gun !
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Leshma on December 16, 2012, 01:55:15 pm
The right to bear arms still exists in the U.S in case revolting against our government becomes an essential and completely ideal subject again.

Makes sense. But in that case you guys should demand from your government to allow to purchase newest military technology. You'll need it if you want to defend yourself from your own government, guns and rifles won't help you there.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Overdriven on December 16, 2012, 02:03:31 pm
People in the United States don't have the second amendment to go hunting, or to kill people breaking into their house, or to protect themselves from thugs.  It's in place because the US started out as what we would today call a terrorist group, the second amendment exists because American citizens were allowed to bear arms and form a militia to eliminate our own government.  People like to forget that the 1776 American War of Independence wasn't AMURICA fighting against English invaders, we were fighting our own government.  The right to bear arms still exists in the U.S in case revolting against our government becomes an essential and completely ideal subject again.

You're right that effectively the War of Independence was a civil war of sorts. Before people get all patriotic, 'Americans' were a bunch of English (and others) merchants who just got a bit pissed at tax. The fact the right to bear arms still exists is a major over sight in the eyes of many around the world. In the modern world I would say it's completely out of place and unrealistic and simply an excuse for owning a gun. A bunch of hicks with guns are hardly likely to dent the might of the US military.

And before anyone brings up the fact a bunch of merchants beat the might of the British army, they were similarly armed, the British 'army' wasn't actually all that strong and to the British it was seen as a bit of a sideshow. Not to mention the country is across the Atlantic in a time when making that crossing meant weeks of travel. Sure the British lost some face in the War of Independence but that's it. In the modern world against the actual US military, it would be an utter slaughter if the citizens rebelled. So the right to bear arms means jack all in that argument.

Sure there are arguments for it. But I think those arguments are vastly outweighed by the simple statistics of gun related crime. And sure some states might have stricter gun laws blah blah as pointed out by Arathian. But the problem is the US is a country. Just because one state has strict gun laws, if another doesn't it means fuck all in real terms. If the entire country had the same strict gun laws then you would see a difference. Unless strict border controls between states existed then there's nothing to really stop the movement of firearms between states.

Equally bringing in nation wide gun laws now would be difficult. How would you confiscate the firearms already owned by millions of American's? I'm not sure you could and that's a problem.

You say "people without guns" like that is possible. Even in the worst police states, like England, one can EASILY find illegal weaponry. The only ones whom the laws disarm is the law-abbiding citizens.

That's not exactly true. Whilst you can find illegal weaponry it is expensive and usually organised. Your average criminal couldn't very easily without some money and some knowledge. That and the risks of using a gun, as in being caught with one, even committing a crime with one are actually bigger than other forms of weaponry. That's why knife crime is so much more common here. Most of us are perfectly happy and safe knowing that gun ownership is very low in the UK. Knives are much more of a worry but then they are also far less damaging in terms of just how many people you can hurt.

When they 'asked' people to hand in their illegal knives ect a few years ago they had a hugely positive response. People even handed in replica weapons from TV shows. People were very happy to because they weren't seen as a necessity. I guess it's a different culture to the US from that respect.

It's not the gun laws that killed those innocent 6-7 year old children and teachers. It's the mentality and mind of that autistic kid. If you got a fucked up brain like him and like the ones in Columbine, Virginia Tech, Guy in Finland who posted that youtube vid before he went on his spree. Hell even The Führer, then nothing will stop you from getting what you want.

They can take harmful acid or whatever from chemistry at school and make their own kinds of weapons. The only limit is their insane damaged brains and their own creativity.

What possible reasoning could he have killing these young innocent kids? His brain must've been severely damaged.

My cousin is autistic and I seriously doubt he's going to walk into a school and kill a lot of people. Sure there may have been other factors for that guy there but I think bringing up his mental condition is a poor excuse. If you make it easy for someone to obtain a gun, relatively speaking that is, then naturally you open the area up for the possibility of more things like this happening because more people with issues or whatever can have access to that ability to take someone's life. The easier you make it, the more likely it's going to happen. Mix that with I guess lack of care ect that this guy may have received and you have a recipe for a problem. Simply put, you can't ignore the fact that the ownership of a gun made this a lot easier to happen.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Tibe on December 16, 2012, 02:17:10 pm
(click to show/hide)

Frankly this was the point I tried to make with my "look at my country for example" post, that some people simply didnt get. Estonia has extremely strict gun restrictions, yet somehow we still on top of the murderchart(no firearms involved). Which is wierd as hell considering we have basically no organised crime or anything here.  And yes, every person in Switzerland basically owns militaryhardware. And such massacres like in the US will happen with our without strict gunregulations. Just take a look at Norway, strict gunregulations. Somewere Brevik still gets an entire armory and shoots an island full of innocent teenagers.

Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt like it being 100% legal . I tought so aswell when I was younger, keep it as strict as possible, than the society will be safer. Somehow ive kinda reached the conclusion that its mostly not so simple.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Teeth on December 16, 2012, 02:21:56 pm
The right to bear arms still exists in the U.S in case revolting against our government becomes an essential and completely ideal subject again.
I really can't picture any realistic scenario in which discontent with the goverment in a liberal democratic country is going to devolve into an army versus populace struggle.

Makes sense. But in that case you guys should demand from your government to allow to purchase newest military technology. You'll need it if you want to defend yourself from your own government, guns and rifles won't help you there.
I very much enjoyed reading your statements throughout this thread Leshma, keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Leshma on December 16, 2012, 02:23:38 pm
I very much enjoyed reading your statements throughout this thread Leshma, keep up the good work!

I would say the same about your precious infamy points, but sadly it's not working anymore :(
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on December 16, 2012, 02:28:58 pm
Any successful revolt toward the US government can only be done with military backing. Unless you're willing to count on the government not shooting back.

Anyway, I think the real answer here is the lack of equality in the country leading to desperate actions. And in the case of public shootings ease of access to guns + depression.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Leshma on December 16, 2012, 02:35:25 pm
Any successful revolt toward the US government can only be done with military backing.

This. If military is willing to help, there's no government that can do anything about it.

Also, most recent revolutions were led by foreign countries. In Yugoslavia, people who led the revolution and presented themselves as students were actually trained for that in foreign countries (probably by CIA). Many of them live in USA, not in Serbia.

I think that military will always support the revolution if majority of the people want things to change. But they will rarely support fake revolutions like those we've seen in last couple of decades.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Teeth on December 16, 2012, 02:36:27 pm
Any successful revolt toward the US government can only be done with military backing. Unless you're willing to count on the government not shooting back.
With the current democratic accountability of the government in the U.S. I am willing to count on 'the government' resigning in the case of an uprising against it. Of course legislation like the Patriot Act might be the start of a slippery slope towards becoming a totalitarian state, but I am talking about right now. These bad guy government scenario's here seem a little bit far fetched in countries with a democratic government.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Tibe on December 16, 2012, 02:44:12 pm
With the current democratic accountability of the government in the U.S. I am willing to count on 'the government' resigning in the case of an uprising against it. Of course legislation like the Patriot Act might be the start of a slippery slope towards becoming a totalitarian state, but I am talking about right now. These bad guy government scenario's here seem a little bit far fetched in countries with a democratic government.

Russia?
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on December 16, 2012, 02:47:21 pm
When was Russia democratic again?
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Tibe on December 16, 2012, 02:52:02 pm
Its in their constitution. The fact that its fakedemocracy already makes it a "bad guy goverment" as Teeth put it.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Teeth on December 16, 2012, 02:55:15 pm
Russia?
Yeah Russia is known around the world for its democracy. What I mean with democracies and for which countries I expect my point to be valid are the countries listed as full democracies in the Democracy Index. Russia recently got downgraded to an authoritarian regime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Its in their constitution. The fact that its fakedemocracy already makes it a "bad guy goverment" as Teeth put it.
That is the wrong order of things, I am adressing the armed revolt scenarios against the U.S. government, which I find far fetched. My point being that the government in a functioning democracy would resign before it comes to any of that. Russia not being a functioning democracy in the first place does not disprove that point by pretending to be one.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on December 16, 2012, 03:01:19 pm
Its in their constitution. The fact that its fakedemocracy already makes it a "bad guy goverment" as Teeth put it.
I think the point Teeth was making was that he thinks it unlikely for democracies to become to evil authoritarian governments.

Fakedemocracy, on the other hand, is historically an improvement for Russia
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Tibe on December 16, 2012, 03:09:32 pm
Quess you got a point there, fakedemocracy really is its improvement.

Still its not that impossible. Economy takes few more hits and democracy will eventually crumble in some western countries.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Molly on December 16, 2012, 03:12:16 pm
Frankly this was the point I tried to make with my "look at my country for example" post, that some people simply didnt get. Estonia has extremely strict gun restrictions, yet somehow we still on top of the murderchart(no firearms involved). Which is wierd as hell considering we have basically no organised crime or anything here.  And yes, every person in Switzerland basically owns militaryhardware. And such massacres like in the US will happen with our without strict gunregulations. Just take a look at Sweden, strict gunregulations. Somewere Brevik still gets an entire armory and shoots an island full of innocent teenagers.

Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt like it being 100% legal . I tought so aswell when I was younger, keep it as strict as possible, than the society will be safer. Somehow ive kinda reached the conclusion that its mostly not so simple.
Sweden? Really? Am I the only one who stumbled about it? A guy bombs a city and kills a whole island of young people and you fail to remember the country it was in? It was in Norway.  :|

And nobody here ever denied that those things CAN happen in countries with strict laws on guns... point is: it's way less likely to happen. And as Kafein already wrote - I can sit down too and google some completely unrelated numbers, post them and think they are a valid argument. I can pull some numbers out of my ass and they would have the same validity.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Tibe on December 16, 2012, 03:15:19 pm
Damn, I may have went full retard there! Ignore me, ive had little sleep and 2 hangovers during this weekend. I know its freaking Norway, but for some reason Sweden popped in my brain.:oops: :oops: :oops:

Holy crap that was retarded. Thanks for pointing that out Benkei, I wont argue anymore cause I fear il make a bigger fool of myself. Dont look at me!

PS: I for one never google for numbers and stuff. Its really your own opinion of the matter that I think is of value when doing an internetdiscussion.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on December 16, 2012, 03:24:29 pm
 1.Switzerland 45.7
 2. Finland    32
 3. Sweden    31.6   
 4. Norway    31.3

Here's your list of top 4 European countries with highest number of guns per capita. Especially hunting rifles are extremely common here, but normal pistols and such is not that hard to get either if it's for your hobby.

Regardless if it's Sweden or Norway, the amount of guns in the country compared to people is still extremely high, regardless of the gun laws. I'd also like to point out that in the past 10 years, Finland has had 2 school shootings, and one public shooting that I can remember. Norway had the largest public shooting I can remember. Sweden I can't remember anything major.

PS. I always argue with numbers I can base my opinion on. Not just on what I feel is the case. Perhaps you should google more numbers.

EDIT: Here's some interesting statistics on gun violence(though it doesn't track all countries): http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms
Notice how Sweden and Switzerland are surprisingly high on the charts, despite lack of truly organized criminality. Finland has about 20-25 murders per year with firearms, iirc.

EDIT EDIT: I feel like I need to clarify my position. I'm very neutral in the gun debate. But the facts are that generally in countries with a lot of guns, the murders are done with guns(and often not always, have high murder rates). Personally I think I should have the right to a gun. I do not have much trust for other people to own guns.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: KingBread on December 16, 2012, 03:47:07 pm
Yea your own opinion is most likely your own emotions thats created by your parents and closest people around you. Not obiective reality. Ofc everybody somewhat brings his own opinion in topic even when using numbers. But numbers make stuff a bit more obivective.


Yay no gun killing spree in Poland... yet....

also
we go 111 people killed and Slovakia got over two thousands WTF Slovakia its more per capita than USA. 
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Tibe on December 16, 2012, 03:48:49 pm
What I ment by that was I wont bring numbers into discussions. It doesnt mean I wont look up my facts.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on December 16, 2012, 03:57:59 pm
Yea your own opinion is most likely your own emotions thats created by your parents and closest people around you. Not obiective reality. Ofc everybody somewhat brings his own opinion in topic even when using numbers. But numbers make stuff a bit more obivective.


Yay no gun killing spree in Poland... yet....

also
we go 111 people killed and Slovakia got over two thousands WTF Slovakia its more per capita than USA.

Tbh, that Slovakia figure does seem unlikely. So I checked and I have no idea where that number is taken from. This site cites sources (http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/homicide.html), so I find it a lot more credible.
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/slovakia

If those figures are correct. Slovakia is a good example of how more guns =/= more violence. According to those figures 84 people were murdered in Slovakia in 2009, 1.5 out of 100 000 people. Only 3 of them were killed with guns. For reference, Slovakia does not have that many guns. It just goes to show that if people don't have guns. They kill without guns.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Teeth on December 16, 2012, 04:04:09 pm
(click to show/hide)
I fully agree with empirical facts being the only way to prove claims about guns - murders relationships and such. It's just that the link you provided does not show murder rates, but just the amount of murders, which is rather meaningless information for comparing the effects of guns legislature on the amount of murders between countries.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on December 16, 2012, 04:08:34 pm
I fully agree with empirical facts being the only way to prove claims about guns - murders relationships and such. It's just that the link you provided does not show murder rates, but just the amount of murders, which is rather meaningless information for comparing the effects of guns legislature on the amount of murders between countries.
Ya, I realized that. Hence the new sources:
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/homicide.html
http://www.gunpolicy.org/

Why am I debating this anyway. I much preferred debating religion or benefits of free education on another site  :lol:
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Molly on December 16, 2012, 04:19:33 pm
Ya, I realized that. Hence the new sources:
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/homicide.html
http://www.gunpolicy.org/

Why am I debating this anyway. I much preferred debating religion or benefits of free education on another site  :lol:
Dunno which figures you read but...

"Homicide by firearm rate per 100,000 population" - Finland = 0,4 (highest value is Croatia with 0,5 Europe'ish) versus USA 3,2.

Case closed.

Aunt Edith says...

...taken out of UNODC Homicide Statistics
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: djavo on December 16, 2012, 04:49:47 pm
Well you dont blame the guns? Personally I wouldnt want people like TOD to have one in possession, especially molly with his uncles luger.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Kafein on December 16, 2012, 05:41:33 pm
And as Kafein already wrote - I can sit down too and google some completely unrelated numbers, post them and think they are a valid argument. I can pull some numbers out of my ass and they would have the same validity.  :rolleyes:

That wasn't really what I was saying. You can show me two perfectly accurate and valid graphs depicting the evolution of two things during the same time window. And if the two graphs are matching, it is natural for the brain to conclude that there is an underlying relationship between those two values. This is simply false and an extremely common error in argumentation/interpretation/logic.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Allers on December 16, 2012, 06:23:12 pm
http://news.msn.com/us/ind-man-with-47-guns-arrested-after-school-threat
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Molly on December 16, 2012, 06:26:40 pm
That wasn't really what I was saying. You can show me two perfectly accurate and valid graphs depicting the evolution of two things during the same time window. And if the two graphs are matching, it is natural for the brain to conclude that there is an underlying relationship between those two values. This is simply false and an extremely common error in argumentation/interpretation/logic.
Which is pretty much exactly what I described w/o the "smartass" in it ;)
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Christo on December 16, 2012, 06:43:18 pm
In Poland we rebeled against communistic goverment that was under soviet russia protectorate withouth a single gun shot from rebel side. And this is how you do a succesfull rebelion.

In Hungary the commies started shooting unarmed, innocent protesters, then called in the Red Army after this escalated into a real rebellion in 1956.

Not everyone is lucky it seems.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Kafein on December 16, 2012, 08:20:54 pm
Which is pretty much exactly what I described w/o the "smartass" in it ;)

My bad, well there's probably something I don't understand correctly in your post.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: LordBerenger on December 16, 2012, 08:32:50 pm
Dunno which figures you read but...

"Homicide by firearm rate per 100,000 population" - Finland = 0,4 (highest value is Croatia with 0,5 Europe'ish) versus USA 3,2.

Case closed.

Aunt Edith says...

...taken out of UNODC Homicide Statistics

Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Leshma on December 16, 2012, 08:59:01 pm
You know what's real issue here?

Not enough guns. If everyone who has been shot in this incident had a gun, things could end differently.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Arathian on December 16, 2012, 09:26:30 pm
What are the highest gun restrictions ? How many of these violent crimes were actually done with firearms, how many of those firearms were obtained legally ? Those are the real questions.
In Chicago and NY, the 2 cities in the US with the highest crime rates in the US, it is essentially impossible to obtain legal firearms, unless you are a politician, and had a ban on most types of them (heck, the court had to strike down as unconstitutional like 12 laws recently in Chicago). On the other hand, states with very liberal gun laws, like Texas and New Mexico, have the lowest violent crime rates in the US. These are simple facts Kafein...you can't really dispute them.


Also, Switzerland isn't one of the countries with the lowest crime rates because the gun laws are laxist, duh. You know, I could show you graphs of the average temperature during the south african summer the same years as new rambo movie releases and make a correlation between the temperature and the size of rambo's shirt on the dvd case. Any reasonable human being would see a pattern here.

What you say might or might not be true, however it definitevely doesn't help the correlation that guns "produce" crime. You might argue that less pirates cause global warming, but the definitevely can't argue that less pirates cause global cooling since there are now both less pirates and more heat....

....I am not sure if you get my analogy, but hey, pastafarian references.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Artyem on December 16, 2012, 09:34:17 pm
You guys can calm down, I'm not supporting the reason why we have the second amendment still, I'm simply stating why it's been in place at all.  However, apparently no one has the reading comprehension to understand anything else I wrote so gloopdeglopbeboop
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Overdriven on December 16, 2012, 09:57:34 pm
In Chicago and NY, the 2 cities in the US with the highest crime rates in the US, it is essentially impossible to obtain legal firearms, unless you are a politician, and had a ban on most types of them (heck, the court had to strike down as unconstitutional like 12 laws recently in Chicago). On the other hand, states with very liberal gun laws, like Texas and New Mexico, have the lowest violent crime rates in the US. These are simple facts Kafein...you can't really dispute them.

Could that be more to do with environmental factors as it were. Chicago and New York are both big cities. Cities are breeding grounds for crimes. Texas's biggest city has a population of 2 million whilst New York has 8.2 million, mind you Chicago is 2.7 million. New Mexico is hardly worth mentioning with its biggest city being 550k. I'd put those crime rates down far more to that than the gun laws themselves. Although Chicago is perhaps questionable.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Casimir on December 16, 2012, 09:59:32 pm
In Chicago and NY, the 2 cities in the US with the highest crime rates in the US, it is essentially impossible to obtain legal firearms, unless you are a politician, and had a ban on most types of them (heck, the court had to strike down as unconstitutional like 12 laws recently in Chicago). On the other hand, states with very liberal gun laws, like Texas and New Mexico, have the lowest violent crime rates in the US. These are simple facts Kafein...you can't really dispute them.


What you say might or might not be true, however it definitevely doesn't help the correlation that guns "produce" crime. You might argue that less pirates cause global warming, but the definitevely can't argue that less pirates cause global cooling since there are now both less pirates and more heat....

....I am not sure if you get my analogy, but hey, pastafarian references.

correlation =/= cause and effect
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Kafein on December 16, 2012, 10:15:36 pm
In Chicago and NY, the 2 cities in the US with the highest crime rates in the US, it is essentially impossible to obtain legal firearms, unless you are a politician, and had a ban on most types of them (heck, the court had to strike down as unconstitutional like 12 laws recently in Chicago). On the other hand, states with very liberal gun laws, like Texas and New Mexico, have the lowest violent crime rates in the US. These are simple facts Kafein...you can't really dispute them.

Like Overdriven said, I believe crime is much more influenced by environmental/social factors than gun laws. Poor people living in residential towers  will definetly have more crimes than rich people in suburbs.


What you say might or might not be true, however it definitevely doesn't help the correlation that guns "produce" crime. You might argue that less pirates cause global warming, but the definitevely can't argue that less pirates cause global cooling since there are now both less pirates and more heat....

....I am not sure if you get my analogy, but hey, pastafarian references.

What I was trying to say is that there is no necessary correlation when two data plots match, which we seem to agree upon.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Molly on December 17, 2012, 10:26:13 am
In the end it's pretty simple really:
The easier it is to obtain a firearm, the higher is the probability that someone will be shot with it.

Nobody can argue with that.

There is an estimated 300 million (300.000.000) firearms in the USA, barely 30% registered (taken from a newspaper today). Honestly, I think they are more but...
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: djavo on December 17, 2012, 02:14:07 pm
Wait theres more.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/13/bulls-fans-shot-after-win_n_2294164.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/13/bulls-fans-shot-after-win_n_2294164.html)
and more
and more
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Teeth on December 17, 2012, 02:29:44 pm
There is probably tons of scientists that have researched the supposed relation between firearm regulation and crimes committed with firearms with actual solid empirical backing. Someone go find one and quote it because this discussion in here is pretty meaningless.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Cepeshi on December 17, 2012, 02:31:08 pm
There are tons and tons of people dying daily due to even stupider reasons and i do not see the internet weeping for them. Get real guys. E-mourning? Not cool if you didnt even know the people.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Casimir on December 17, 2012, 02:38:52 pm
Are you really complaining about people who are expressing grief over a massacre of children? That's one fucked up psychology you've got there, shame on you.

Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Vibe on December 17, 2012, 02:48:31 pm
So apparently the killer was a sperg with a room full of PC's that were confiscated to find out if someone over internet motivated him to do it. On top of that, his mother was 21.12.2012 brainwashed and supposedly supplied guns to herself and her sperg son to "protect" themselves from the coming end of the world.

Either way, the blame is on violent video games again lol, who would've thought.

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Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Teeth on December 17, 2012, 03:04:23 pm
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(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Cepeshi on December 17, 2012, 03:08:42 pm
Are you really complaining about people who are expressing grief over a massacre of children? That's one fucked up psychology you've got there, shame on you.

I am more complaining that people care more about some random children massacred by some psycho instead of, dunno, kids starving in Africa (cliche, but still), addicted newborns and whatnot. There is so much shit happening i just could not care anymore.


We recently had a case of methanol alcohol in regular booze killing people or making them blind in the better case. Few guys from my hometown died from getting booze off shop i walked by every day. That made me sad, cause it happened close to me. But you dont see me e-mourning, that doesnt help anyone. If my kid got shot, the last thing i would want to see is everyone talking about it. Cynical? Maybe.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Vibe on December 17, 2012, 03:08:53 pm
I am a horrible person, I laughed

Lmfao.

I am a horrible person as well. I'm reading a bunch of comments on the new "he did it because of violent video games" statement on a local newspage and laughing. Someone wrote:

"I'm obsessed with Monopoly, but i'm still not a millionaire :("
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Casimir on December 17, 2012, 03:31:20 pm
I am more complaining that people care more about some random children massacred by some psycho instead of, dunno, kids starving in Africa (cliche, but still), addicted newborns and whatnot. There is so much shit happening i just could not care anymore.


We recently had a case of methanol alcohol in regular booze killing people or making them blind in the better case. Few guys from my hometown died from getting booze off shop i walked by every day. That made me sad, cause it happened close to me. But you dont see me e-mourning, that doesnt help anyone. If my kid got shot, the last thing i would want to see is everyone talking about it. Cynical? Maybe.

Yea the world full of shit, well done.  Doesn't make it wrong for people to express grief over something no matter whether it directly affects them or not.  Just because people have no direct connection with the victims doesn't mean they can't feel grief over the loss of life.  I'm not 'e-mourning' simply saying that people have a right to if they wish, and you shouldn't tell people not to.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Teeth on December 17, 2012, 03:43:48 pm
Just because people have no direct connection with the victims doesn't mean they can't feel grief over the loss of life
I can't thats for sure and I am really glad I can't. You're life is going to be shit if you are going to let people dying on the other side of the planet bring down your day. Being all whiney whiney on the internet makes you look pretty stupid, especially if you take into account way worse things happen everyday as Cepeshi's is telling you.

E-mourning is stupid, I tell people not to.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Kafein on December 17, 2012, 03:43:59 pm
I am more complaining that people care more about some random children massacred by some psycho instead of, dunno, kids starving in Africa (cliche, but still), addicted newborns and whatnot. There is so much shit happening i just could not care anymore.


We recently had a case of methanol alcohol in regular booze killing people or making them blind in the better case. Few guys from my hometown died from getting booze off shop i walked by every day. That made me sad, cause it happened close to me. But you dont see me e-mourning, that doesnt help anyone. If my kid got shot, the last thing i would want to see is everyone talking about it. Cynical? Maybe.

Congratulations, you are good at rationaliz1ng :lol:

Btw awesome censorship (ratiochocolate chip cookieng)

Also, I don't blame anyone for doing that, I do it all the time, cause I'm a cynical, heartless bastard. I just like to point out sometimes that it isn't really a good way of looking at things.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Cepeshi on December 17, 2012, 03:46:47 pm
I am glad there are more people that dont go full emo over the interwebs  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Casimir on December 17, 2012, 04:00:43 pm
You guys can't read, at no pot have i been whinny, ive simply said others have the right to 'e-mourn' if they want, who thee fuck are you to tell them not too?

You've got to be a pretty heartless bastard to not be upset at the idea of a bunch of kids getting shot up.  I don't loose any sleep over it and it certainly doesn't affect my day to day life at all, but i still think that its a sad thing.

(click to show/hide)

I think i can do just fine without life coaching from you thanks

Sometimes its good have a bit of emotion in your lives, rather than becoming completely desensitised to the shit-hole of a world we live in.  Good things are done everyday out there, just apparently not by you guys.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Kafein on December 17, 2012, 04:08:48 pm
You guys can't read, at no pot have i been whinny, ive simply said others have the right to 'e-mourn' if they want, who thee fuck are you to tell them not too?

You've got to be a pretty heartless bastard to not be upset at the idea of a bunch of kids getting shot up.  I don't loose any sleep over it and it certainly doesn't affect my day to day life at all, but i still think that its a sad thing.

I think i can do just fine without life coaching from you thanks

Sometimes its good have a bit of emotion in your lives, rather than becoming completely desensitised to the shit-hole of a world we live in.  Good things are done everyday out there, just apparently not by you guys.

That may be a weird world view, but I believe most good things come from people that don't really overthink their morality/try to short circuit their intuition. You don't have to be sorry when you are not to blame. (also enough people on facebook are already doing it for you).
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: LordBerenger on December 17, 2012, 04:10:08 pm
Hardcore gamers aren't exactly known to have much of a life and if they do they sure as hell won't show any compassion to everyone else.


Fact
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Teeth on December 17, 2012, 04:21:20 pm
You guys can't read, at no pot have i been whinny, ive simply said others have the right to 'e-mourn' if they want, who thee fuck are you to tell them not too?
I have the right to think mourning on the internet because people they didn't know died and it is on tv is dumb. You have the right to e-mourn if you mourn about every random death that happens, otherwise you are just shallow.

You've got to be a pretty heartless bastard to not be upset at the idea of a bunch of kids getting shot up.  I don't loose any sleep over it and it certainly doesn't affect my day to day life at all, but i still think that its a sad thing.
Then you are not upset at all. Of course it is a horrible event, I agree, it just does not touch my emotions and thank the lord for that.

Sometimes its good have a bit of emotion in your lives, rather than becoming completely desensitised to the shit-hole of a world we live in.  Good things are done everyday out there, just apparently not by you guys.
Yes, cause if you do not shed a tear over people dying on the news then you do not have any morals. Cause telling the internet that you are sad is a tremendously good deed that helps people. Getting bogged down in all the bad shit happening in the world does not help anyone. I am glad that I am able to rationalize all that and worry about fixing bad things within my reach. Feeling bad about things you had no part in is not healthy.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Leshma on December 17, 2012, 04:27:30 pm
Hardcore gamers aren't exactly known to have much of a life and if they do they sure as hell won't show any compassion to everyone else.


Fact

That's because gamers aren't mortal. We never die, we respawn.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Casimir on December 17, 2012, 04:34:14 pm
Since when did you know the ins and outs of how human emotion works?

There's a difference between 'every random death' and children getting shot up.  Obviously there are many tragedies every day, but a massacre of children is something which should warrant some form of emotional response.

The whole thing doesn't have an effect on my day to day life, except maybe seeing it on the news or posting in this thread.  But its still and upsetting thing and I feel sorry for the families who have to suffer through that.  How can you say that I'm not upset, who the fuck are you to judge someone else's emotions?

Your rather missing the point i think. Having a wider moral conscious and the ability to feel emotions about things that don't directly affect us is a good thing, not bad.  You can be upset by stuff and think its wrong without it being in your immediate life, why else do people fund charities and relief agencies.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Leshma on December 17, 2012, 04:35:36 pm
Casimir, let Teeth keep doing what he does best. Being a massive douchebag.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Teeth on December 17, 2012, 05:04:05 pm
There's a difference between 'every random death' and children getting shot up.  Obviously there are many tragedies every day, but a massacre of children is something which should warrant some form of emotional response.
Since when did you know the 'normal human' way to respond? You are taking your opinion as the norm at least as much as I am, so don't you go that way. Random children getting shot up, happens all the time, you hear nobody about that. But when it is on tv, we all need to shed a tear. That is my main problem with the drama about this.

How can you say that I'm not upset, who the fuck are you to judge someone else's emotions?
Upset pretty much means disturbing the general order of things, so using your description I judge that you are not upset. Might be a linguistic point here.

Your rather missing the point i think. Having a wider moral conscious and the ability to feel emotions about things that don't directly affect us is a good thing, not bad.  You can be upset by stuff and think its wrong without it being in your immediate life, why else do people fund charities and relief agencies.
Because they rationally decide that it is the right thing to do, atleast I'd wish. That is not the case though, because people let emotions lead their actions, they send their money to the charity with the sad picture, instead of the one who tries to fix a less media friendly but maybe more important problem.

Our major point of discussion is probably that you think emotions are positive and I think that rationality better to rely on in most cases. A simple fact is though, that being emotional does not make you a better person than someone who is more rational even if you say it very loudly. I would go further than that and say being emotional clouds judgement and is therefore something negative, but I am well aware that that is an endless point of discussion.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Casimir on December 17, 2012, 05:21:48 pm
Then don't go around nay saying people who's rational is different to yours.  Having emotions and being emotionally driven are to different things, hats my point.  I might feel upset by something, it doesn't mean I'll act on it.  I'm as rational as the next guy, doesn't mean i shut out all emotion as you guys prescribe.  Welcome to the concept of having emotions and still being rational, it may confuse you cyborgs...

Also go and read any psychology paper on desensitisation, it'll show you that the average human responds emotionally to violence such as that.  These aren't just my opinions.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Teeth on December 17, 2012, 05:39:23 pm
Having emotions and being emotionally driven are to different things, hats my point. I might feel upset by something, it doesn't mean I'll act on it.
Gee, why didn't I get that.
Sometimes its good have a bit of emotion in your lives, rather than becoming completely desensitised to the shit-hole of a world we live in.  Good things are done everyday out there, just apparently not by you guys.
Your rather missing the point i think. Having a wider moral conscious and the ability to feel emotions about things that don't directly affect us is a good thing, not bad.  You can be upset by stuff and think its wrong without it being in your immediate life, why else do people fund charities and relief agencies.

Also go and read any psychology paper on desensitisation, it'll show you that the average human responds emotionally to violence such as that.  These aren't just my opinions.
I'm pretty sure the average human being responds more heavily emotionally if violence is accompanied with a picture of dead kittens, then if it comes to 80 year old males, the average human being is not that great.

That is my last nitpicking on points for today. If emotions about things you can not do anything about worry you, they are negative and serve no purpose, even if the average human being does it. If you disagree on that we're at a complete impasse.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Casimir on December 17, 2012, 06:01:55 pm
I think we were at impasse the minute we started posting.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Templar_Ratigan on December 17, 2012, 07:55:55 pm
As usual the media irritated me with it's incessant coverage of the person who murdered those people....rather than the people themselves.

Another good job glorifying the murderer. They have of course covered the victims somewhat, but only after pouring over every detail concerning the individual who committed the crime in the first place.

As for the pessimism evidenced here, well I have my own thoughts on that, but I dont think anyone would appreciate an essay of a post so I wont bore you or preach like I normally do.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: [ptx] on December 17, 2012, 09:13:01 pm
If a deranged guy over here goes berserk, he does not go to the black market (as if he knew how to get anything from that), he does not get a gun license or anything, he just grabs a knife or something and goes to town with that, wounding one, two, maybe three people, possibly lethally.
And yes, that happens here and pretty much everywhere else, where guns are not as easily available. If we had the same gun laws over here, you would be hearing of school/whatever shootings from over here just as much, if not more.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Vibe on December 18, 2012, 11:42:38 am
If a deranged guy over here goes berserk, he does not go to the black market (as if he knew how to get anything from that), he does not get a gun license or anything, he just grabs a knife or something and goes to town with that, wounding one, two, maybe three people, possibly lethally.
And yes, that happens here and pretty much everywhere else, where guns are not as easily available. If we had the same gun laws over here, you would be hearing of school/whatever shootings from over here just as much, if not more.

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Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Molly on December 18, 2012, 12:47:56 pm
If a deranged guy over here goes berserk, he does not go to the black market (as if he knew how to get anything from that), he does not get a gun license or anything, he just grabs a knife or something and goes to town with that, wounding one, two, maybe three people, possibly lethally.
And yes, that happens here and pretty much everywhere else, where guns are not as easily available. If we had the same gun laws over here, you would be hearing of school/whatever shootings from over here just as much, if not more.
...and it would stop at 3 or maybe 4 people dead and not 20 when equipped with a firearm.
That`s the whole point of the discussion: less firearms = profit.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: POOPHAMMER on December 18, 2012, 12:53:52 pm
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Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Zaar on December 18, 2012, 02:53:35 pm
Mentally unstable person who was taught to shoot and has access to a frickin mini arsenal.

I really dont see how can anyone be that shocked that a tragedy like this could, and has, happened  :?
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: [ptx] on December 18, 2012, 04:10:00 pm
...and it would stop at 3 or maybe 4 people dead and not 20 when equipped with a firearm.
That`s the whole point of the discussion: less firearms = profit.
..which is what i said.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Laufknoten on December 18, 2012, 04:28:40 pm
I like how just a few hours after that incident the anti-gun lobby already started shouting "take all teh guns away durr!". It really shows that they don't give a flying fuck about the victims, they just care about their political agenda.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Leshma on December 18, 2012, 05:43:22 pm
No one gives a fuck about victims. They are just 26 dead people, 20 of them being small children.

Today I've read a new article. It's about the killer and his family, again...
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Kafein on December 18, 2012, 05:58:02 pm
I like how just a few hours after that incident the anti-gun lobby already started shouting "take all teh guns away durr!". It really shows that they don't give a flying fuck about the victims, they just care about their political agenda.

To be honest if the guy had no guns prior to this event, a majority of the victims would have survived.

Besides, stricter gun laws isn't really an end in itself. I don't see how could people care about that as their political agenda for malicious reasons. I mean what the hell, the knife industry ? On the other hand, gun manufacturers have a lot to lose if gun laws become less forgiving, and that is an agenda.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Teeth on December 18, 2012, 06:47:33 pm
No one gives a fuck about victims. They are just 26 dead people, 20 of them being small children.

Today I've read a new article. It's about the killer and his family, again...
The victims were arbitrarily picked as targets, what do you even want to read? Little Mike liked fries? Johnny hoped to become a pilot? How is any of that more interesting or important than what brought someone to doing such a thing?
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Artyem on December 18, 2012, 08:36:58 pm
It should be against the law to own a firearm?  How long have criminals been good at following the law?  Meth is against the law but there sure is a fuck ton of it being made every day in county.

I think there's a few people missing the major point that just because something is made illegal doesn't mean it won't be acquired anyway.  The only people who will have guns would be those who break the law in the first place, people who abide the law wouldn't have any guns.  In a country as big as the United States it's not hard to illegally import a firearm from a place like Mexico, considering it's right next door and there's already more drugs than you can conceive of crossing the border into the U.S from there.  Not that hard to smuggle firearms in as well.

EDIT:  As I said before, why would one kill him/herself and be remembered as a nobody when they could take down twenty others with them and be a glorified icon in the media?
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Hobb on December 18, 2012, 08:57:11 pm
To be honest if the guy had no guns prior to this event, a majority of the victims would have survived.

Besides, stricter gun laws isn't really an end in itself. I don't see how could people care about that as their political agenda for malicious reasons. I mean what the hell, the knife industry ? On the other hand, gun manufacturers have a lot to lose if gun laws become less forgiving, and that is an agenda.

The political agenda has nothing to do with guns, children, or any kind of statistic that the politicians throw around after a major event involving guns, but an agenda targeting the constitution that protects the guns. If you can alter one part of the constitution, you can alter every part.

Now should our constitution be changed as time goes on to adapt to the new technology and circumstances of the world? That is debatable I suppose, but from the perspective of a politician, and certainly a politician in power being able to alter the constitution (the one thing stopping you from doing almost anything) you can see how something like a school shooting starts these debates.

Now grant it, it may be different in Europe, but it is not possible to truly prohibit guns in America. Anything that can fit in a shoe box is readily available here regardless of legality, and I sure every American with half a brain (could be a small number) knows this to be true.

Just like in drugs however, when the gov't cannot protect your property, (drugs) you need your own protection. How many Lives would it really cost a year to make it legally hard to own a gun?
Just like car accidents, gang wars and other drug related murders greatly outnumber mass shootings in the U.S. its nice to think of a peaceful world without shootings, but its just not going to happen.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: [ptx] on December 18, 2012, 10:54:46 pm
The political agenda has nothing to do with guns, children, or any kind of statistic that the politicians throw around after a major event involving guns, but an agenda targeting the constitution that protects the guns. If you can alter one part of the constitution, you can alter every part.

Now should our constitution be changed as time goes on to adapt to the new technology and circumstances of the world? That is debatable I suppose, but from the perspective of a politician, and certainly a politician in power being able to alter the constitution (the one thing stopping you from doing almost anything) you can see how something like a school shooting starts these debates.

Now grant it, it may be different in Europe, but it is not possible to truly prohibit guns in America. Anything that can fit in a shoe box is readily available here regardless of legality, and I sure every American with half a brain (could be a small number) knows this to be true.

Just like in drugs however, when the gov't cannot protect your property, (drugs) you need your own protection. How many Lives would it really cost a year to make it legally hard to own a gun?
Just like car accidents, gang wars and other drug related murders greatly outnumber mass shootings in the U.S. its nice to think of a peaceful world without shootings, but its just not going to happen.
Well.
I guess we can write the New World off then, right now. Nothing can save that misbegotten wildland of brigands and criminals. :|

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Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Templar_Ratigan on December 18, 2012, 11:34:02 pm
The victims were arbitrarily picked as targets, what do you even want to read? Little Mike liked fries? Johnny hoped to become a pilot? How is any of that more interesting or important than what brought someone to doing such a thing?

Id say the character of the killer is something to be analysed by professionals. What the general public can get from it I dont know.

Oh a few people might have the insightful understanding of how an individual's personal pain can become a destructive outlet causing such an event and perhaps they might consider certain people in their lives that are in similar situations. But for most it will just be representative of sensationalism, loners and violence with guns.
I also seriously doubt the media will portray it in such a helpful manner either, nor would they feel inclined to.

It is a cliche that giving too much attention to those who commit these events could cause others to idealise the legacy of such an outcome. But it is probably a fairly correct cliche in some cases.

As for the man, or rather boy, who committed these murders; I do think it is a shame that he felt driven to this act. What he went through to cause this reaction is worthy of sympathy and consideration, what he did is worthy only of condemnation.

But it doesnt arouse anger in me. Just general sadness, not that my sadness is worth anything or even worth posting about.

Besides, will the media give any real insight into what events in his life drove him to this? I suppose ill have to wait and see if a decent article or report pops up.

I suppose I understand that drippy sentimentality is not of much use, but then neither is pointless sensationalism.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on December 19, 2012, 05:59:40 pm
So, in a world where everyone has guns. I would be scared shitless if someone would open fire on Times Square for example. Because the killer can easily blend in the crowd and everyone has a gun. Besides, people suddenly pulling out guns in a panic situation leads to a bunch of scared people wielding weapons looking for someone pointing a gun at them. Nevermind the terror of someone trying to protect himself, misses the shooter and hits some innocent. And hell, why not get shot himself by another innocent thinking he's the gunman.

At least when only criminals and law enforcement have guns, we know that all who have guns are criminals or law enforcement and there are less morons waving guns when shit hits the fan.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: djavo on December 19, 2012, 07:33:50 pm
To sum all the responses only pussies carry guns with themselves.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Boerenlater on December 19, 2012, 08:35:42 pm
To sum all the responses only pussies carry guns with themselves.
Basicly half the USA and whole of Texas.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: POOPHAMMER on December 24, 2012, 03:33:06 pm
To sum all the responses only pussies carry guns with themselves.

yeah

i carry a gun with me when i go out because shit like this happens in my city, a lot

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2012/11/07/relatives-seek-justice-after-man-is-beaten-in-downtown-baltimore/

sorry for being a pussy but i dont wanna wind up like this guy
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Weewum on December 24, 2012, 07:51:16 pm
yeah

i carry a gun with me when i go out because shit like this happens in my city, a lot

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2012/11/07/relatives-seek-justice-after-man-is-beaten-in-downtown-baltimore/

sorry for being a pussy but i dont wanna wind up like this guy
I would carry one too, if I had a license for one atleast.
http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/miami-zombie-attack.htm
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Jacko on December 24, 2012, 09:54:21 pm
The thread is probably derailed already, but I'll pitch in anyway to shed some light on the Swedish gun control and crimes related to it.

To get a handgun license in Sweden, you'd first have to prove that you can shoot and handle the gun. Minimum requirement for 9mm gun or equivalent is  6+ months membership in an "shooting club", with a license and prior use of a 22 caliber gun (before that air rifles most likely). You basically have to prove that you intend to use the gun for sport shooting. Of course you have to have a clean record as well. I would, for example, not be able to own a gun, despite having fired thousands of bullets with an 9mm gun and used it for many months on tour (tho I'd probably have an easier time getting a license if I were to apply). 

Getting a hunting permit (and a rifle) is much easier, but still a similar process; training, some tests (shooting and writting). If you intend to purchase one you have to own a weapon safe with the appropriate safety grade (goes for all guns).

Very few gun related crimes happen with licensed guns in Sweden. The vast majority of gun related crimes comes from illegal guns, usually from the eastern states (Russia, Balkans etc).
Organized crime, if you will.

TL;DR
So while we have a relatively high rate of gun related accidents in Sweden, it in itself has nothing to do with the amount of LEGAL guns in the country.
Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: Shpritza on December 25, 2012, 07:29:20 pm
yeah

i carry a gun with me when i go out because shit like this happens in my city, a lot

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2012/11/07/relatives-seek-justice-after-man-is-beaten-in-downtown-baltimore/

sorry for being a pussy but i dont wanna wind up like this guy

u don't need a gun u need krav maga   :P

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Title: Re: Question For EUs
Post by: SMEGMAR on December 26, 2012, 01:33:13 am
Wouldn't be the first time that the government kills its own people to push their hidden agendas...