Author Topic: Question For EUs  (Read 8279 times)

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Offline Ninja_Khorin

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Re: Question For EUs
« Reply #105 on: December 16, 2012, 03:24:29 pm »
+1
 1.Switzerland 45.7
 2. Finland    32
 3. Sweden    31.6   
 4. Norway    31.3

Here's your list of top 4 European countries with highest number of guns per capita. Especially hunting rifles are extremely common here, but normal pistols and such is not that hard to get either if it's for your hobby.

Regardless if it's Sweden or Norway, the amount of guns in the country compared to people is still extremely high, regardless of the gun laws. I'd also like to point out that in the past 10 years, Finland has had 2 school shootings, and one public shooting that I can remember. Norway had the largest public shooting I can remember. Sweden I can't remember anything major.

PS. I always argue with numbers I can base my opinion on. Not just on what I feel is the case. Perhaps you should google more numbers.

EDIT: Here's some interesting statistics on gun violence(though it doesn't track all countries): http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms
Notice how Sweden and Switzerland are surprisingly high on the charts, despite lack of truly organized criminality. Finland has about 20-25 murders per year with firearms, iirc.

EDIT EDIT: I feel like I need to clarify my position. I'm very neutral in the gun debate. But the facts are that generally in countries with a lot of guns, the murders are done with guns(and often not always, have high murder rates). Personally I think I should have the right to a gun. I do not have much trust for other people to own guns.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 03:44:50 pm by Ninja_Khorin »

Offline KingBread

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Re: Question For EUs
« Reply #106 on: December 16, 2012, 03:47:07 pm »
+1
Yea your own opinion is most likely your own emotions thats created by your parents and closest people around you. Not obiective reality. Ofc everybody somewhat brings his own opinion in topic even when using numbers. But numbers make stuff a bit more obivective.


Yay no gun killing spree in Poland... yet....

also
we go 111 people killed and Slovakia got over two thousands WTF Slovakia its more per capita than USA. 
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Offline Tibe

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Re: Question For EUs
« Reply #107 on: December 16, 2012, 03:48:49 pm »
0
What I ment by that was I wont bring numbers into discussions. It doesnt mean I wont look up my facts.

Offline Ninja_Khorin

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Re: Question For EUs
« Reply #108 on: December 16, 2012, 03:57:59 pm »
0
Yea your own opinion is most likely your own emotions thats created by your parents and closest people around you. Not obiective reality. Ofc everybody somewhat brings his own opinion in topic even when using numbers. But numbers make stuff a bit more obivective.


Yay no gun killing spree in Poland... yet....

also
we go 111 people killed and Slovakia got over two thousands WTF Slovakia its more per capita than USA.

Tbh, that Slovakia figure does seem unlikely. So I checked and I have no idea where that number is taken from. This site cites sources, so I find it a lot more credible.
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/slovakia

If those figures are correct. Slovakia is a good example of how more guns =/= more violence. According to those figures 84 people were murdered in Slovakia in 2009, 1.5 out of 100 000 people. Only 3 of them were killed with guns. For reference, Slovakia does not have that many guns. It just goes to show that if people don't have guns. They kill without guns.

Offline Teeth

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Re: Question For EUs
« Reply #109 on: December 16, 2012, 04:04:09 pm »
0
(click to show/hide)
I fully agree with empirical facts being the only way to prove claims about guns - murders relationships and such. It's just that the link you provided does not show murder rates, but just the amount of murders, which is rather meaningless information for comparing the effects of guns legislature on the amount of murders between countries.

Offline Ninja_Khorin

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Re: Question For EUs
« Reply #110 on: December 16, 2012, 04:08:34 pm »
0
I fully agree with empirical facts being the only way to prove claims about guns - murders relationships and such. It's just that the link you provided does not show murder rates, but just the amount of murders, which is rather meaningless information for comparing the effects of guns legislature on the amount of murders between countries.
Ya, I realized that. Hence the new sources:
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/homicide.html
http://www.gunpolicy.org/

Why am I debating this anyway. I much preferred debating religion or benefits of free education on another site  :lol:

Offline Molly

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Re: Question For EUs
« Reply #111 on: December 16, 2012, 04:19:33 pm »
-2
Ya, I realized that. Hence the new sources:
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/homicide.html
http://www.gunpolicy.org/

Why am I debating this anyway. I much preferred debating religion or benefits of free education on another site  :lol:
Dunno which figures you read but...

"Homicide by firearm rate per 100,000 population" - Finland = 0,4 (highest value is Croatia with 0,5 Europe'ish) versus USA 3,2.

Case closed.

Aunt Edith says...

...taken out of UNODC Homicide Statistics
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Offline djavo

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Re: Question For EUs
« Reply #112 on: December 16, 2012, 04:49:47 pm »
0
Well you dont blame the guns? Personally I wouldnt want people like TOD to have one in possession, especially molly with his uncles luger.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Question For EUs
« Reply #113 on: December 16, 2012, 05:41:33 pm »
0
And as Kafein already wrote - I can sit down too and google some completely unrelated numbers, post them and think they are a valid argument. I can pull some numbers out of my ass and they would have the same validity.  :rolleyes:

That wasn't really what I was saying. You can show me two perfectly accurate and valid graphs depicting the evolution of two things during the same time window. And if the two graphs are matching, it is natural for the brain to conclude that there is an underlying relationship between those two values. This is simply false and an extremely common error in argumentation/interpretation/logic.

Offline Allers

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Offline Molly

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Re: Question For EUs
« Reply #115 on: December 16, 2012, 06:26:40 pm »
-1
That wasn't really what I was saying. You can show me two perfectly accurate and valid graphs depicting the evolution of two things during the same time window. And if the two graphs are matching, it is natural for the brain to conclude that there is an underlying relationship between those two values. This is simply false and an extremely common error in argumentation/interpretation/logic.
Which is pretty much exactly what I described w/o the "smartass" in it ;)
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Offline Christo

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Re: Question For EUs
« Reply #116 on: December 16, 2012, 06:43:18 pm »
+1
In Poland we rebeled against communistic goverment that was under soviet russia protectorate withouth a single gun shot from rebel side. And this is how you do a succesfull rebelion.

In Hungary the commies started shooting unarmed, innocent protesters, then called in the Red Army after this escalated into a real rebellion in 1956.

Not everyone is lucky it seems.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Question For EUs
« Reply #117 on: December 16, 2012, 08:20:54 pm »
0
Which is pretty much exactly what I described w/o the "smartass" in it ;)

My bad, well there's probably something I don't understand correctly in your post.

Offline LordBerenger

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Re: Question For EUs
« Reply #118 on: December 16, 2012, 08:32:50 pm »
0
Dunno which figures you read but...

"Homicide by firearm rate per 100,000 population" - Finland = 0,4 (highest value is Croatia with 0,5 Europe'ish) versus USA 3,2.

Case closed.

Aunt Edith says...

...taken out of UNODC Homicide Statistics

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Offline Leshma

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Re: Question For EUs
« Reply #119 on: December 16, 2012, 08:59:01 pm »
0
You know what's real issue here?

Not enough guns. If everyone who has been shot in this incident had a gun, things could end differently.