I'm not sure that I am so comfortable with the eternal-lightsaber-wiggle two hander move.
Are we playing the same game?
Oh, right, NA.
Are we playing the same game?Even on EU you don't see many 2d or 4d polearms and most of them are hoplites so 1d before shield goes out.
Oh, right, NA.
I'm not sure that I am so comfortable with the eternal-lightsaber-wiggle two hander move.
If removed then from everything :!:
I like the turnspeed nerf as it added an extra element of skill to the game.
Previously, you could make up for lack of skill/bad judgement with a quick flick of the wrist. Now you need to have good footwork and be able to predict your opponent's movement to land overheads reliably. Good change in my opinion.
However, the point when a weapon is active on a thrust REALLY needs to be looked at and fixed individually for each weapon class.
Hitting a lone enemy madly dashing through your lines was already tricky before, but right now it's silly how effective it is. Using overheads near teammates is downright annoying.Really? I haven't had problems hitting people that try to rush into a group and spam. What I do is that I stop moving. No sidestepping, forward or backward moving. Just standing completely still while the enemy rushes through my allies in front, waiting until they run into my range and then I unleash the overhead/stab. Usually gets them.
Really? I haven't had problems hitting people that try to rush into a group and spam. What I do is that I stop moving. No sidestepping, forward or backward moving. Just standing completely still while the enemy rushes through my allies in front, waiting until they run into my range and then I unleash the overhead/stab. Usually gets them.
Few people liked it ever, anyway. Sadly the dev's don't care, I've seen this with a dozen changes. Most of the changes they do are poorly researched cause their play time with the game is minimal and instead of listening to the community, they do what they think is better, which rarely is better. Ofcourse they should not react to the communitys first reaction to a patch, cause we don't like change all that much. Well written, rational posts a bit later should atleast be considered though.
From looking at the current gameplay, it basically nerfed skilled teamplayers and buffed spamming noobs. You see it all the time, an 8 athlethics crossbower jumps into the middle of an enemy group and can run around swinging for 30 seconds, cause no one is able to hit him. Normally in the vicinity of teammates, one would use precise stabs or overheads to minimize the risk of hitting a teammate. Nowadays though 8 athlethics means that they sidestep faster than you can turn, because the turn rate was very, very drastic.
(Another great change, earlier active attacks against friendlies, which few people liked but they refused to revert. Nerfed teamplay as well. Well, atleast that was a nerf to sideswinging noobs. The devs know that if you just don't care for long enough, people will accept the new shitty situation. Same is going to happen to the turn rate nerf ofcourse.)
Sideswinging, the easy noob attacks, got their effectiveness increased a lot, relative to turn rate nerf affected attacks.
Devs also didn't quite formulate accurately what their aims were with the turn rate nerf. I assume it is lolpiking and lolstabbing. As far as 2h stab goes, that is way worse now, cause it can do facehug insta hits as well as very late dragging hits. It's truly omnipotent. Even though you could wiggle it like crazy before, atleast the hit always came at the same moment and chambering was a reliable strategy. As far as lolspearing goes, that is still extremely effective. I haven't lolspeared before the change, but I know it is pretty damn strong now once you work out how to do it.
Another valid tactic that I used as a 1h and as a german poleaxer against cav. Chambering their lances to hit their horses in the ass. That doesn't work anymore. Overhead chambers in general are quite fucked now with short weapons.
TL;DR version, it broke everything that it tried to fix, just in a different way and broke a few things on the side. Simultaneously it took a bunch of skill out of the game by promoting the already easy to use sideswings.
Rusty, whenever this comes up you say something along the lines of "it takes no skill to move your mouse quickly." I think this is silly. Pretty much all video games are just moving bits and pressing buttons in response to audiovisual stimuli, and when they are real-time games speed is obviously important. In this context it's almost the definition of "skill" be able to execute and respond to things quickly. Having good footwork and reading your opponent are part of this process; they do not exist as a separate, purely cerebral exercise. The turnspeed nerf ensures that the speed-cap of combat is lower, effectively lowering the skill ceiling. Landing overheads now may be more difficult than before, but fighting overall has become less skillful.
Add a "long weapon" tag like crushthrough and unbalanced to affect weapons that way you just add the tag if its over a certain length .So buff me and keep others nerfed. I will be for this tag if turn rate nerf wasn't broken cause it is realistic but in this case we will not discuss this.
So buff me and keep others nerfed. I will be for this tag if turn rate nerf wasn't broken cause it is realistic but in this case we will not discuss this.
The current turn rate nerf IS NOT realistic...you can easily pivot your body 90 to 180 degrees (if you're turning counter-clockwise as a righty) as you thrust any sort of a long polearm forward...OK its closer to reality with nerf then without. But also Two handed weapons should have bigger powerstike or STR bonus than one handed cause its closer to reality :D
Ask anyone who's ever played a sport, do you stand with your feet planted and your body stiff when you throw a ball or swing a hockey stick? Or is your whole body pivoting and rotating to get as much energy to the point of release?
OK its closer to reality with nerf then without. But also Two handed weapons should have bigger powerstike or STR bonus than one handed cause its closer to reality :D
OK its closer to reality with nerf then without. But also Two handed weapons should have bigger powerstike or STR bonus than one handed cause its closer to reality :D
That is already reflected in the fact that even rudimentary two-handed weapons have much higher base damage than many of the best one-handed weapons.You mean around 30% more and are slower which is not so much. Many 2h have unbalanced trait but no onehander.
Being able to make quick adjustments to stimuli is "twitch" gaming. I've never considered it much of a skill especially due to the fact that human beings will continue to get worse at it no matter how much they practice. (Aging is a bitch) If we were to say that twitch gaming takes skill, then quick-time events would be the pinnacle of that skill.
It's not so much a skill as how fast the different systems in your body can work together. It can be trained to a degree, the more you see a certain event the more your brain recognized the signs of that event and can prepare. But really, that's just a sharpening of our built in fight-or-flight response. Not really a skill. It's also something you can improve through artificial means. You can get a better surface for your mouse, you can purchase a better mouse, you can adjust your mouse's latency. All these things will improve your reaction times without any development on your end.
Timing, being able to read your opponents, knowing the capabilities of your tools and how best to use them...those are skills. Those are things that you can always improve and apart from getting dementia, you're not really going to get worse at it.
You can make up for poor gameplay just by having good reflexes. Honestly the slower this game gets, the MORE skill you need to beat a good opponent. At that point if you lose, it's because they are better than you or you made a mistake. It's not because of things like latency (which has a HUGE effect especially when the game is sped up) or the fact that some 12 year old has a faster reaction time than you do.
I will leave this thread with a video of Joe Louis. He was "slow" as far as boxers go...but god damn did that guy know how to fight. Skill trumps twitch any day of the week.
It's not skill because you get worse at it with age? What? You realize Joe Louis got worse with age, right? Pretty much every learned "skill" deteriorates with age. If worsening with age precludes skill, then skill doesn't exist. Being good at soccer isn't a skill? Marksmanship isn't a skill? This point is incredibly inane.
And where did I say that twitch-reflexes are the only kind of skill? It isn't, but in a real time game, reacting in real time is pretty damn important. Certainly, quick time events, take a kind of skill. Being able to keep rhythm and react quickly in say DDR, which is essentially a giant QTE, is a skill. I didn't and wouldn't say that they are the epitome of it, though, largely because it's an entirely different category of activity. Just like being good at Chess, almost an entirely mental exercise, and being good at, say, Starcraft, one that combines physical ("twitch") and mental aspects, are both skills. One isn't more skillful than the other, they are different activities.
You just described pretty much every physical activity ever. You know, like soccer, tennis, rugby, baseball, archery -activities that are universally recognized as involving skill. Just because you can buy a better tennis racket doesn't mean that tennis doesn't take skill. And like it or not, video games involve physically manipulating controls in real time.
Being able to use that knowledge when it matters is what's skillful. More options and faster paced gameplay puts a strain on the player, he has to really know his shit to be able to utilize what you mentioned when the pressure is on. More options/speed, more pressure, more opportunities for skill to shine through. Anyone can read their opponent when they have the luxury of time. I think the word you used, "timing," is fairly illuminating. It is harder and takes much more refinement to time things when you yourself have limited time.
Actually this really is starting to sound like, "I'm a tactical genius, I'm only losing (to 12 year olds apparently), because they are faster than me." Um, if you think having faster reflexes than someone is somehow illegitimate and not part of "gameplay," well, maybe real time games aren't what you want. I don't know, that sounds kind of mean, but I really can't wrap my head around complaining about someone having better reflexes than you in a category of activity that is explicitly reflex driven. You can't be better than someone, but only lose because they are faster than you.
Jesus Christ what is this shit? Do you actually box or follow boxing? Did you watch the video you posted? As far as heavyweights go Joe Louis was incredibly fast, his handspeed was the hallmark of his style. He had a regimented, shuffling advance in early rounds but he's an archetypal small, fast heavyweight. He could TRIPLE up on left hooks, and throw them with power. Yes, he was incredibly solid technically too, but he was goddamn fast. In his heyday he was often hailed as the fastest heavyweight in the world. Faster (and not by much) fighters have come and gone since then, but it blows my mind that you would bring up the Brown Bomber as a slow boxer.
While I think that the current turn rate is fine, the way you were trying to define what "true" skill is was pretty ridiculous.
I will leave this thread with a video of Joe Louis. He was "slow" as far as boxers go...but god damn did that guy know how to fight. Skill trumps twitch any day of the week.
Few people liked it ever, anyway. Sadly the dev's don't care, I've seen this with a dozen changes. Most of the changes they do are poorly researched cause their play time with the game is minimal and instead of listening to the community, they do what they think is better, which rarely is better. Ofcourse they should not react to the communitys first reaction to a patch, cause we don't like change all that much. Well written, rational posts a bit later should atleast be considered though.
From looking at the current gameplay, it basically nerfed skilled teamplayers and buffed spamming noobs. You see it all the time, an 8 athlethics crossbower jumps into the middle of an enemy group and can run around swinging for 30 seconds, cause no one is able to hit him. Normally in the vicinity of teammates, one would use precise stabs or overheads to minimize the risk of hitting a teammate. Nowadays though 8 athlethics means that they sidestep faster than you can turn, because the turn rate was very, very drastic.
(Another great change, earlier active attacks against friendlies, which few people liked but they refused to revert. Nerfed teamplay as well. Well, atleast that was a nerf to sideswinging noobs. The devs know that if you just don't care for long enough, people will accept the new shitty situation. Same is going to happen to the turn rate nerf ofcourse.)
Sideswinging, the easy noob attacks, got their effectiveness increased a lot, relative to turn rate nerf affected attacks.
Devs also didn't quite formulate accurately what their aims were with the turn rate nerf. I assume it is lolpiking and lolstabbing. As far as 2h stab goes, that is way worse now, cause it can do facehug insta hits as well as very late dragging hits. It's truly omnipotent. Even though you could wiggle it like crazy before, atleast the hit always came at the same moment and chambering was a reliable strategy. As far as lolspearing goes, that is still extremely effective. I haven't lolspeared before the change, but I know it is pretty damn strong now once you work out how to do it.
Another valid tactic that I used as a 1h and as a german poleaxer against cav. Chambering their lances to hit their horses in the ass. That doesn't work anymore. Overhead chambers in general are quite fucked now with short weapons.
TL;DR version, it broke everything that it tried to fix, just in a different way and broke a few things on the side. Simultaneously it took a bunch of skill out of the game by promoting the already easy to use sideswings.
being able to steer attacks is pretty much a necessary game component, anyway, yeah when maul guys would bounce off the ground and then steer it into you it sucked, but that was a necessary thing. currently even the slowest character can strafe faster than an overhead can be turned, which is why you don't see overheads in duels anymore.
The turnspeed nerf is right when it makes lolstabbing harder. But it's wrong when it affects long weapons and short weapons the same wayok valid point, i get that. but,
and it is again wrong when it makes polearm thrusts connect immediately and inflict full damage without momentum.what do you mean with this? you mean that the turnspeednerf makes your weapon op?
what do you mean with this? you mean that the turnspeednerf makes your weapon op?
All I see is a guy who is really bad at doing overheads.
rusty you know the great thing about this game is that it's multiplayer, you play it with other real people. sometimes you can read them and predict what they're going to do, but lots of times you can't. if you're THAT good at reading people then go top the duel chart or something
Someone running from side to side is incredibly difficult to predict I know. I mean shit, in that video after he turned left and right 2 or 3 times I had no idea what he was going to do next.
I MAY somewhat agree with you if you were using a short weapon, but when you're face-hugging with a really long weapon (the longer the weapon, the larger potential area you can cover) and saying overheads are broken, I can't take you seriously.
I would like to see a dynamic turn speed nerf, before we actually revert it. The longer and heavier a weapon is, the slower it turns. And perhaps we can limit it on stabs mostly, whereas overheads are affected less. Unless it's a crushthrough weapon, of course.Hope that big ass shields will be counted to this dynamic nerf also :wink:
But if even such a stepped system proves as bad, I am also for a reversion.
One thing that used to annoy me the fuck out on cRPG, which is still in native combat, is that when someone lands an overhead, and if he turns his "aim" when the overhead have already landed on the ground, he could simply move his sword towards the enemy and still get a hit, even if it already went past the block he could still do damage, this was especially for mauls if I remember correctly.
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My basic idea of solving that problem would be to significantly speed up the dynamic, connectable part of attack animations while compensating this with a longer, harmless release time window(without turn limitation) before the swing starts. With that the old silly 360° overheads and stabs would be impossible because the turn limitation would be there during the actual swing. However one would still be able to aim one's attack properly because the time window where the turn limitation is active would be very short.I am not sure if I actually understood it but it sure sounds great... :mrgreen:
It would probably be the best to make the swing duration independed from the weapon speed which is different than it is handled currently. With that even slow weapons will have a short connectable time window
of their attacks. In balance their ready time and inactive release time(just after releasing a swing) could be longer.
Wow, how can I disagree with such a well thought out argument? Obviously because I haven't been on the duel server in a few months I don't know how the game mechanics work. You sure showed me. I can't wait to see what your master debating skills come up with next.
More like overheads are not great at all, period
i'm glad we've come to this agreement, rustyspoons. if you haven't been on duel in "a couple of months" then why exactly are you telling me i'm shit at dueling/aiming overheads in duels/lecturing on how easy it is to hit an overhead in a duel?
My basic idea of solving that problem would be to significantly speed up the dynamic, connectable part of attack animations while compensating this with a longer, harmless release time window(without turn limitation) before the swing starts. With that the old silly 360° overheads and stabs would be impossible because the turn limitation would be there during the actual swing. However one would still be able to aim one's attack properly because the time window where the turn limitation is active would be very short.Should definitely not be applied to stabs though, 2h stabs are pretty brokenly strong already.
It would probably be the best to make the swing duration independed from the weapon speed which is different than it is handled currently. With that even slow weapons will have a short connectable time window
of their attacks. In balance their ready time and inactive release time(just after releasing a swing) could be longer.
Hi, my name's Rusty and I'm barely decent with a shield and trash without one. Therefore I like to take to the forums and argue for horrible design decisions by implying that I'm good at the nerfed attack in question. This appeals to me because it makes me feel special and I would be equally terrible if the turnspeed nerf were reverted anyway, so I benefit at least emotionally from the nerf remaining. Fighting with more than two viable attack directions is too complicated for me, so don't expect me to address that either. Also, I'm dumb and say things like "Joe Louis was slow for a boxer" and "it's unfair that 12 year olds have faster reflexes than me."
My basic idea of solving that problem would be to significantly speed up the dynamic, connectable part of attack animations while compensating this with a longer, harmless release time window(without turn limitation) before the swing starts. With that the old silly 360° overheads and stabs would be impossible because the turn limitation would be there during the actual swing. However one would still be able to aim one's attack properly because the time window where the turn limitation is active would be very short.
It would probably be the best to make the swing duration independed from the weapon speed which is different than it is handled currently. With that even slow weapons will have a short connectable time window
of their attacks. In balance their ready time and inactive release time(just after releasing a swing) could be longer.
"Hi, my name's Rusty and I'm barely decent with a shield and trash without one. Therefore I like to take to the forums and argue for horrible design decisions by implying that I'm good at the nerfed attack in question. This appeals to me because it makes me feel special and I would be equally terrible if the turnspeed nerf were reverted anyway, so I benefit at least emotionally from the nerf remaining. Fighting with more than two viable attack directions is too complicated for me, so don't expect me to address that either. Also, I'm dumb and say things like "Joe Louis was slow for a boxer" and "it's unfair that 12 year olds have faster reflexes than me."
I would like to see a dynamic turn speed nerf, before we actually revert it. The longer and heavier a weapon is, the slower it turns. And perhaps we can limit it on stabs mostly, whereas overheads are affected less. Unless it's a crushthrough weapon, of course.this
But if even such a stepped system proves as bad, I am also for a reversion.
My basic idea of solving that problem would be to significantly speed up the dynamic, connectable part of attack animations while compensating this with a longer, harmless release time window(without turn limitation) before the swing starts. With that the old silly 360° overheads and stabs would be impossible because the turn limitation would be there during the actual swing. However one would still be able to aim one's attack properly because the time window where the turn limitation is active would be very short.this
...
It would probably be the best to make the swing duration independed from the weapon speed which is different than it is handled currently. With that even slow weapons will have a short connectable time windowwhy/what ... i think i don't quite get this point could you explain a bit more please?
of their attacks. In balance their ready time and inactive release time(just after releasing a swing) could be longer.
November 15, 2012, 09:19:31sure necro, but he has a point.
sure necro, but he has a point.so much bulshit kin
I still see 2h/polearms suing overhead all the time. Not sure if is for a longer weapon as bad as for a shorter weapon, but overhead for 1h with all these agwhoring( the irony i know :rolleyes: ) players, overhead is pretty much useless, aslong the dude infront of you is not stationary or on the ground.
I thought 1h overhead was one of the best swing directions for a long time (even during turn nerf) since it had both reach and speedIt's got the same reach as the left to right swing, being the shortest animation after the polearm swings.
1h weapons have higher speed rating therefore spend less time in active state therefore make hitting things that move fast harder with overheads. Also, because you already have to be close to someone to hit with a 1h weapon, the movement of enemies translates in much higher angluar difference. In other words, if I'm at a 2 meter distance from you and I go 50cm to the left, you only have to turn slightly to hit me. However, if I'm only 50cm away from you, then moving 50cm to the left will mean you will have to turn a lot more to hit me. This is what makes hitting with 1h overheads difficult in comparison with longer weapons.exactly, finally i saw the words i didnt find.