Revert the turnspeed nerf for most weapons

[rustyspoon]

My God. Sometimes I feel like I need to start using puppets to explain things to people.

Pre turn speed nerf enabled you to hit people with missed attacks which was a dumb, exploitable mechanic.

Instead of the turn speed nerf, I would have preferred that the devs increased character movement speed. However, they chose the turn speed nerf.

It's still terribly easy to reliably land overheads with the nerf. By using movement keys more and mouse less you can hit anyone and still have some mouse turn left over to make adjustments. But this is the CRPG community, who would rather cry than adapt.

[Bjord]

While I think that the current turn rate is fine, the way you were trying to define what "true" skill is was pretty ridiculous.

I still kinda miss the old turn rate, when I could do a 360 spinstab .

[rustyspoon]

While I think that the current turn rate is fine, the way you were trying to define what "true" skill is was pretty ridiculous.

I wasn't defining skill as much as I was saying that having reflexes is not a skill. Having reflexes comes with being a living creature.

[Bjord]

Those reflexes are good for nothing if you don't know how to act on them, so the only advantage for good reflexes is if you're already a good player. If, by your definition, you're a "skilled" player but with average reaction time you should still be able to beat a "twitcher". Simply because you have more experience and skill.

Still, in a fast-paced game, people with slow reaction time will have a harder time. So while it may not be a "skill", reaction is certainly something that can be improved by repeated practice, or by playing games that stimulates your reflexes (like FPS games). In that sense, "skill" and "reaction" are very similar in that they can both be developed through repetition.

Warband in its current state (especially cRPG) is not that demanding of quick reflexes anyway, but rather a trained working memory. By that I mean, you need to be able to think several steps ahead of your opponent in real time, and that is something that is quite difficult. I remember feeling like a handicapped person in my first month of Warband, because I was so inexperienced and didn't know shit. Today I can't believe how much I've improved.

One more thing: Yes, some people may have an advantage due to faster reaction time but then again, some are born athletes and some are born scientists. You can't be everything. Rustyspoon, if I were to judge you by what you've written so far, I'd say you simply had the bad luck of being born with average reflexes. And as I said, if you are suffering with slow reactions, start doing something about it instead of trying to make it seem like a negative trait (which by the way was a really obvious attempt).

B out.

[Tzar]

cRPG is a slowmotion chess based first person hack n slash 

Inb4 more nerfs to mobility an speed....

[Darkkarma]

I will leave this thread with a video of Joe Louis. He was "slow" as far as boxers go...but god damn did that guy know how to fight. Skill trumps twitch any day of the week.

This is a really poor example man. If anything, boxing is the antithesis of what you're tying to prove. All of the greatest boxers in history have pretty much had amazing reflexes to compliment their outstanding technical ability.

Whether you want to talk Ali, Roy Jones,Frazier, either of the sugar rays,willy pep,pernell,mayweather, the list goes on man. All of those guys were pretty good "twitchers" if you know what I mean.
 
Juan Manuel Marquez is an extremely technical fighter who has beaten plenty of younger, faster,stronger fighters in the past, yet he lost horribly to floyd mayweather, an equally technical fighter due to his combination of incredible technique and blinding speed.

In fact, id dare say that it proves the point of what kaoklai argued in response to your posts. Still, the boxing analogy in general is just a bad example when it comes to showing that technique flat out trumps reflexes and im starting to quibble, so ill just move on.

The spoilered part is more of a tangent than anything. Read at your own risk, as I don't want to to take away from the bigger point of my post.

(click to show/hide)

Furthermore, i don't agree with your reasoning really. Slowing a game down to the point where inevitable block duels happen between only but the most skilled players might seem fun to a few, but it's mind numbing to most of us, especially with the way alot of features are either being removed or tweaked constantly (turn speeds, sweet spots on weapon stab animations, etc.). Sure, Saul is going to continue being Saul and the same for all of the other elite players but(here comes the tangent). Now it's really late/early and maybe i'm getting the wrong idea here, but it really does seem as if you're advocating making the game's melee combat system more simplistic and more like a mathematical formula of sorts if many aspects can't be cleaned up or implemented and balanced properly. I mean, you hit on a  few, but there are quite a few other "exploitable mechanics", as you put it in the game already. One could argue that polestun,insta stabbing,hiltslashing,double swinging and different weapon animations in general are silly/exploitable mechanics, but I for one like that they are in the game as it makes the game more interesting and at times unpredictable.

What i'm trying to say is that the spontaneity that this game's combat provides makes it so that it can't be 100 percent accounted for or written in stone all of the time. As much as I hate being one of those "realism guys" ill bet in battles in the past there were probably more than a few really great/skilled warriors that ended up tripping over a rock or losing their footing that ultimately ended up in them getting killed. Is it a shitty and anticlimactic way to go out? Sure, but that's life man. Nothing is funnier than seeing a guy nearly  clutch a round, only to get his swing stuck on an object and get killed over it. At the time, it might be rage inducing to literally get killed over some random variable that you couldn't have possibly seen coming, but more often than not i'm able to look back on it and laugh at how spontaneous and random it was and how unlikely it is to be replicated again. Try blackbarring rhaelys in a duel while you're at full health and then literally getting consecutively pole stunned to death in 4 hits to end up losing the duel. Did it piss me off at the time? Yeah, but we were both looking back on it and laughing about it shortly after and he couldn't replicate it if he tried. I don't want to see this game turned into an ultra slow chess match style melee combat system. I like that alot of these random variables can give even the least skilled of players a chance to have their moments here and there.

Really  reflexes and sensitivity are but a few individual parts in the equation. Skill is still the main defining factor here; the others or more so complimentary than others. I mean, Saul uses an inverse set up and it presents alot of issues for me that standard setup duelers cant replicate, but that alone doesn't make him an intrinsically better player. He is the whole package, man. His reflexes,timing and over all skill in general are what make him great. I can't think of a player i've dueled/lost to yet where I thought to myself "man, if this kid wasn't such a twitcher with an ultra sensitive gaming XL elite gaming mouse id totally have his number!". This game really brings it all together to make for a gameplay experience that few other games have been able to replicate.

Your assessment of the community is also a bit off as far as im concerned. It's not so much the community's inability or unwillingness to adapt to changes as much as it is alot of us thinking "if it's not broken, why fix it/change it?" Look how many people stuck around and adapted after the huge change from old crpg?

[Voester]

Few people liked it ever, anyway. Sadly the dev's don't care, I've seen this with a dozen changes. Most of the changes they do are poorly researched cause their play time with the game is minimal and instead of listening to the community, they do what they think is better, which rarely is better. Ofcourse they should not react to the communitys first reaction to a patch, cause we don't like change all that much. Well written, rational posts a bit later should atleast be considered though.

From looking at the current gameplay, it basically nerfed skilled teamplayers and buffed spamming noobs. You see it all the time, an 8 athlethics crossbower jumps into the middle of an enemy group and can run around swinging for 30 seconds, cause no one is able to hit him. Normally in the vicinity of teammates, one would use precise stabs or overheads to minimize the risk of hitting a teammate. Nowadays though 8 athlethics means that they sidestep faster than you can turn, because the turn rate was very, very drastic.

(Another great change, earlier active attacks against friendlies, which few people liked but they refused to revert. Nerfed teamplay as well. Well, atleast that was a nerf to sideswinging noobs. The devs know that if you just don't care for long enough, people will accept the new shitty situation. Same is going to happen to the turn rate nerf ofcourse.)

Sideswinging, the easy noob attacks, got their effectiveness increased a lot, relative to turn rate nerf affected attacks.

Devs also didn't quite formulate accurately what their aims were with the turn rate nerf. I assume it is lolpiking and lolstabbing. As far as 2h stab goes, that is way worse now, cause it can do facehug insta hits as well as very late dragging hits. It's truly omnipotent. Even though you could wiggle it like crazy before, atleast the hit always came at the same moment and chambering was a reliable strategy. As far as lolspearing goes, that is still extremely effective. I haven't lolspeared before the change, but I know it is pretty damn strong now once you work out how to do it.

Another valid tactic that I used as a 1h and as a german poleaxer against cav. Chambering their lances to hit their horses in the ass. That doesn't work anymore. Overhead chambers in general are quite fucked now with short weapons.

TL;DR version, it broke everything that it tried to fix, just in a different way and broke a few things on the side. Simultaneously it took a bunch of skill out of the game by promoting the already easy to use sideswings.

This. THIS

[EponiCo]

being able to steer attacks is pretty much a necessary game component, anyway, yeah when maul guys would bounce off the ground and then steer it into you it sucked, but that was a necessary thing. currently even the slowest character can strafe faster than an overhead can be turned, which is why you don't see overheads in duels anymore.

It's really not necessary (besides the amount you can steer all attacks now). I don't have a problem with overheads or stabs (probably my most effective melee attack). Sure, sometimes I miss, but that's just like missing op 1h left swing due to range. The only thing that feals really awkward for me is lancing, but well, that's abouit time...

[no_rules_just_play]

i tought the community hated (long) awlpikes already WITH the turnspeednerf, but the fact that you guys agree on removing it really amazes me. i actually dont really care about the turnspeed nerf, i think it adds some difficulty instead of being a ninja and spinning trough enemy mobs.
did you guys ever experience when a mauler misses you with his weapon, but kills you by adjusting his attack direction right before he actually hits the ground with his maul. i think that if you wouldnt have a turnspeednerf on this, he would even be able to kill you with a curved hit while you are standing behind him.

correct me if i dont see the point right, but i really want to know what your opinion on this is.

[Kafein]

The turnspeed nerf is right when it makes lolstabbing harder. But it's wrong when it affects long weapons and short weapons the same way, and it is again wrong when it makes polearm thrusts connect immediately and inflict full damage without momentum.

[no_rules_just_play]

The turnspeed nerf is right when it makes lolstabbing harder. But it's wrong when it affects long weapons and short weapons the same way

ok valid point, i get that. but,

and it is again wrong when it makes polearm thrusts connect immediately and inflict full damage without momentum.

what do you mean with this? you mean that the turnspeednerf makes your weapon op?

btw i hate it when people -1 me because i state my opinion in a reasonable way while themselves were bitching like little kids before about something totally off topic that didnt even make any sense. my opinion wasnt stupid, i just mentioned my astonishment because i really tought the community hated the reasons i wrote down. im a fucking long awlpiker myself, i just said i didnt mind the fucking speednerf.
(not against you kafein, ly)

[Kafein]

what do you mean with this? you mean that the turnspeednerf makes your weapon op?

I mean that the change basically changed the way people do lolstabbing without fixing the problem. Now instead of releasing first and wiggling your weapon after that, you hold you thrust, turn first and release when you are in front of your target. It hits without glancing no matter the distance.

[Felix]

I am a pikeman - i can still wiggle and spin-jump attack (180, 360) BUT it works only on those with mediocre playing skill. Or whenever i get lucky. It isn't that hard to downblock a 68 speed weapon (slow as hell).

[Grumbs]

Personally I never minded the turn speed nerf, but I do mind the horrible glance rates. The main point of taking away 2 attack directions should be so you get a great stab, but it feels quite unreliable if you don't stand at just the right distance from the player (not too far, not too close). I understand being too close might glance, but it seems to bounce off a lot at range, and they just don't feel that long now, not enough to justify mediocre damage and losing 2 attack directions

[Ad1no]

I really believe (rather i'm right or wrong) spin nerf coupled with increased ranged players has destroyed mod pop.