Revert the turnspeed nerf for most weapons

[Kafein]

If removed then from everything 

Nope.

It makes total sense to apply it to long and/or heavy weapons.

[Pentecost]

The problem(s):

Wasn't one of the main aims of the change was to stop people from doing helicopter stabs with pikes? Because what I remember happening was the people who knew how to use a pike on a decent level figuring out how to helicopter stab again within 2 days of the patch and everyone else, particularly people with shorter weapons, losing out in different areas.

For me though, how it made overheads extremely unreliable is a bigger problem. It's not a question of "hurr durr good players adapt, bad players lobby", when you have documented instances of overheads that didn't hit any character model somehow ghosting into teammates 2 feet to the right and when a majority of the players on both EU and NA, including many good ones, have gotten into the habit of sticking to side swings and stabs only in 1v1s. When the way the community "adapted" to the terms you dictated was by deciding to just not overhead in any situation that requires movement, that might be a sign that you should consider making some revisions.

The possible solution(s):

-Keep the change but tie weapon weight and length to turn speed. A longsword or short falchion should be allowed to turn more than a maul or pike.

OR

-Speed up the overhead animations. If they are going to remain unreliable, then they should at least be faster than they currently are.

OR

-Just revert the change for now. It's been tested extensively by us, and very few people like the dull leftswing/right block/rightswing/leftblock chains that we have currently as a result of unreliable overheads. A reversion would also speed up combat in general, which is a definite plus in my book.

[San]

I think overheads should just be faster while getting rid of active hitboxes after the swing completes with limited turning (I guess based on weapon length if coders feel like adding that, but I am getting used to it already).

Of course, it will buff mauls and the like, but that will make it more important to dodge, but I would like the whole shockwave dragging overheads along the ground removed. Recovery time on overheads should remain the same. People would have more time to aim their overheads a little bit, just like stabs. Opponents should be able to step in once the overhead misses if they dodge. Of course, there won't be any instahits for overheads like stabs even if they are sped up, so it seems fair to me. Even when I am the initiator of such an attack when I miss and hit anyways, it just strikes me the wrong way.

[Piok]

Turn rate nerf feature is bugged like hell. So its better to get rid of it completely and not to try to implement only on some weapon or let it be as it is.
If you miss clear hit with low ping than there is something wrong. 

[Vodner]

Hitting a lone enemy madly dashing through your lines was already tricky before, but right now it's silly how effective it is. Using overheads near teammates is downright annoying.

[CrazyCracka420]

I like the turnspeed nerf as it added an extra element of skill to the game.

Previously, you could make up for lack of skill/bad judgement with a quick flick of the wrist. Now you need to have good footwork and be able to predict your opponent's movement to land overheads reliably. Good change in my opinion.

However, the point when a weapon is active on a thrust REALLY needs to be looked at and fixed individually for each weapon class.

Agreed, sometimes it feels very intuitive when I "turn" into a stab only to have it glance when I think I have great inertia on my side.

[Gravoth_iii]

Remove it for hoplites aswell! you have no idea how awkward it is to play with it -_-

[Jarlek]

Hitting a lone enemy madly dashing through your lines was already tricky before, but right now it's silly how effective it is. Using overheads near teammates is downright annoying.

Really? I haven't had problems hitting people that try to rush into a group and spam. What I do is that I stop moving. No sidestepping, forward or backward moving. Just standing completely still while the enemy rushes through my allies in front, waiting until they run into my range and then I unleash the overhead/stab. Usually gets them.

Although I usually use a short attack (any 1h, bardiche, halfswording or polestab), so that might help.

[Ikarus]

+1 what Teeth said, it´s just awkward to play :B

[rustyspoon]

Really? I haven't had problems hitting people that try to rush into a group and spam. What I do is that I stop moving. No sidestepping, forward or backward moving. Just standing completely still while the enemy rushes through my allies in front, waiting until they run into my range and then I unleash the overhead/stab. Usually gets them.

This exactly. If you just wait for them to come to you, it's easy to take them out.

[Kaoklai]

Rusty, whenever this comes up you say something along the lines of "it takes no skill to move your mouse quickly."  I think this is silly.  Pretty much all video games are just moving bits and pressing buttons in response to audiovisual stimuli, and when they are real-time games speed is obviously important.  In this context it's almost the definition of "skill" be able to execute and respond to things quickly.  Having good footwork and reading your opponent are part of this process; they do not exist as a separate, purely cerebral exercise.  The turnspeed nerf ensures that the speed-cap of combat is lower, effectively lowering the skill ceiling.  Landing overheads now may be more difficult than before, but fighting overall has become less skillful.   

On a related note, I sometimes get the impression from other advocates of slowing the game (not you) that they blame speed/spam for their failures and there is a vague notion of "if only this game were slower I could beat anyone because of my master tactics, this damn twitchiness prevents me from displaying my martial genius."  I don't blame them for it; we are all heroes and geniuses in our own (video game) eyes and this sort of rationalization is expected.  I just don't think it should influence gameplay.

See you on the battlefield.  I love you.

[Smoothrich]

Few people liked it ever, anyway. Sadly the dev's don't care, I've seen this with a dozen changes. Most of the changes they do are poorly researched cause their play time with the game is minimal and instead of listening to the community, they do what they think is better, which rarely is better. Ofcourse they should not react to the communitys first reaction to a patch, cause we don't like change all that much. Well written, rational posts a bit later should atleast be considered though.

From looking at the current gameplay, it basically nerfed skilled teamplayers and buffed spamming noobs. You see it all the time, an 8 athlethics crossbower jumps into the middle of an enemy group and can run around swinging for 30 seconds, cause no one is able to hit him. Normally in the vicinity of teammates, one would use precise stabs or overheads to minimize the risk of hitting a teammate. Nowadays though 8 athlethics means that they sidestep faster than you can turn, because the turn rate was very, very drastic.

(Another great change, earlier active attacks against friendlies, which few people liked but they refused to revert. Nerfed teamplay as well. Well, atleast that was a nerf to sideswinging noobs. The devs know that if you just don't care for long enough, people will accept the new shitty situation. Same is going to happen to the turn rate nerf ofcourse.)

Sideswinging, the easy noob attacks, got their effectiveness increased a lot, relative to turn rate nerf affected attacks.

Devs also didn't quite formulate accurately what their aims were with the turn rate nerf. I assume it is lolpiking and lolstabbing. As far as 2h stab goes, that is way worse now, cause it can do facehug insta hits as well as very late dragging hits. It's truly omnipotent. Even though you could wiggle it like crazy before, atleast the hit always came at the same moment and chambering was a reliable strategy. As far as lolspearing goes, that is still extremely effective. I haven't lolspeared before the change, but I know it is pretty damn strong now once you work out how to do it.

Another valid tactic that I used as a 1h and as a german poleaxer against cav. Chambering their lances to hit their horses in the ass. That doesn't work anymore. Overhead chambers in general are quite fucked now with short weapons.

TL;DR version, it broke everything that it tried to fix, just in a different way and broke a few things on the side. Simultaneously it took a bunch of skill out of the game by promoting the already easy to use sideswings.

Quoting this because he nails it 100 percent.  Emphasis on that the intended fix, 180-360 spin pike/longspear spam, is even more effective than before, and all they do is 360 jump backwards stab with no chance of glancing just by holding before release a little longer. 

All it did was ruin precision, team fighting, encourage spamming into blobs, make overheads almost unviable in most situations, break game balance with instastabs on long weapons, and in general took a lot of fun away from the game.

[rustyspoon]

Rusty, whenever this comes up you say something along the lines of "it takes no skill to move your mouse quickly."  I think this is silly.  Pretty much all video games are just moving bits and pressing buttons in response to audiovisual stimuli, and when they are real-time games speed is obviously important.  In this context it's almost the definition of "skill" be able to execute and respond to things quickly.  Having good footwork and reading your opponent are part of this process; they do not exist as a separate, purely cerebral exercise.  The turnspeed nerf ensures that the speed-cap of combat is lower, effectively lowering the skill ceiling.  Landing overheads now may be more difficult than before, but fighting overall has become less skillful.   

If you were talking about Quake 3 Rocket Arena I would agree with you. CRPG, not so much.

Being able to make quick adjustments to stimuli is "twitch" gaming. I've never considered it much of a skill especially due to the fact that human beings will continue to get worse at it no matter how much they practice. (Aging is a bitch) If we were to say that twitch gaming takes skill, then quick-time events would be the pinnacle of that skill. It's not so much a skill as how fast the different systems in your body can work together. It can be trained to a degree, the more you see a certain event the more your brain recognized the signs of that event and can prepare. But really, that's just a sharpening of our built in fight-or-flight response. Not really a skill. It's also something you can improve through artificial means. You can get a better surface for your mouse, you can purchase a better mouse, you can adjust your mouse's latency. All these things will improve your reaction times without any development on your end.

Timing, being able to read your opponents, knowing the capabilities of your tools and how best to use them...those are skills. Those are things that you can always improve and apart from getting dementia, you're not really going to get worse at it.

Fast reflexes plus a really skilled player can be incredible to watch. A good quake 3 rocket arena player being a great example of that. But I don't think that really works with a game as hilariously slow as this one. Even this game on the fastest settings is still pretty damn slow. It becomes ridiculous when you take the incredibly slow movement speed in this game and combine it with the ability to spin your character around at lightning fast speeds. It creates a huge disconnect. You can make up for poor gameplay just by having good reflexes. Honestly the slower this game gets, the MORE skill you need to beat a good opponent. At that point if you lose, it's because they are better than you or you made a mistake. It's not because of things like latency (which has a HUGE effect especially when the game is sped up) or the fact that some 12 year old has a faster reaction time than you do.

I will leave this thread with a video of Joe Louis. He was "slow" as far as boxers go...but god damn did that guy know how to fight. Skill trumps twitch any day of the week.

[San]

This game is way too slow for response time to really matter. I can't tell the difference between fastest and cRPG speed. I would argue connection is more important and not seeing any graphical bugs in animation or w/e (outside of getting ganged by a group, but even that is prediction based moreso than simple twitch).

Back to turnspeed nerf:
Overall, it just causes teamhits and no one really likes it. At most, people tolerate/adapt to it. It doesn't fix what it was intended to fix, and just made things different for other weapons. For me, I got used to the overhead, and I can't chamber stabs as reliably anymore. For others, it may have negatively affected them much more. There was nothing really fixed with the turn nerf, and that's the biggest problem imo. I think the way hitboxes stay active were the only things that really needed to be tweaked.

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

Add a "long weapon" tag like crushthrough and unbalanced to affect weapons that way you just add the tag if its over a certain length .