Revert the turnspeed nerf for most weapons

[Piok]

Add a "long weapon" tag like crushthrough and unbalanced to affect weapons that way you just add the tag if its over a certain length .

So buff me and keep others nerfed. I will be for this tag if turn rate nerf wasn't broken cause it is realistic but in this case we will not discuss this.
                                                                                             

[CrazyCracka420]

So buff me and keep others nerfed. I will be for this tag if turn rate nerf wasn't broken cause it is realistic but in this case we will not discuss this.
                                                                                           

The current turn rate nerf IS NOT realistic...you can easily pivot your body 90 to 180 degrees (if you're turning counter-clockwise as a righty) as you thrust any sort of a long polearm forward...

Ask anyone who's ever played a sport, do you stand with your feet planted and your body stiff when you throw a ball or swing a hockey stick?  Or is your whole body pivoting and rotating to get as much energy to the point of release?

[Piok]

The current turn rate nerf IS NOT realistic...you can easily pivot your body 90 to 180 degrees (if you're turning counter-clockwise as a righty) as you thrust any sort of a long polearm forward...

Ask anyone who's ever played a sport, do you stand with your feet planted and your body stiff when you throw a ball or swing a hockey stick?  Or is your whole body pivoting and rotating to get as much energy to the point of release?

OK its closer to reality with nerf then without. But also Two handed weapons should have bigger powerstike or STR bonus than one handed cause its closer to reality

[CrazyCracka420]

OK its closer to reality with nerf then without. But also Two handed weapons should have bigger powerstike or STR bonus than one handed cause its closer to reality

Check the damage output of the 2h versus 1h weapons (aka 1h sword vs 2h sword, 1h axe vs 2h axe), it's already built into the system.  To me, it's absolutely ridiculous that if I turn my spear thrust (or any thrust) more than about 45 degrees it will glance on impact.  I think this should be 90 or 135 degrees.

[Pentecost]

OK its closer to reality with nerf then without. But also Two handed weapons should have bigger powerstike or STR bonus than one handed cause its closer to reality

That is already reflected in the fact that even rudimentary two-handed weapons have much higher base damage than many of the best one-handed weapons.

[Piok]

That is already reflected in the fact that even rudimentary two-handed weapons have much higher base damage than many of the best one-handed weapons.

You mean around 30% more and are slower which is not so much. Many 2h have unbalanced trait but no onehander.

[Kaoklai]

Being able to make quick adjustments to stimuli is "twitch" gaming. I've never considered it much of a skill especially due to the fact that human beings will continue to get worse at it no matter how much they practice. (Aging is a bitch) If we were to say that twitch gaming takes skill, then quick-time events would be the pinnacle of that skill.

It's not skill because you get worse at it with age?  What?  You realize Joe Louis got worse with age, right?  Pretty much every learned "skill" deteriorates with age.  If worsening with age precludes skill, then skill doesn't exist.  Being good at soccer isn't a skill?  Marksmanship isn't a skill?  This point is incredibly inane. 

And where did I say that twitch-reflexes are the only kind of skill?  It isn't, but in a real time game, reacting in real time is pretty damn important.  Certainly, quick time events, take a kind of skill.  Being able to keep rhythm and react quickly in say DDR, which is essentially a giant QTE, is a skill.  I didn't and wouldn't say that they are the epitome of it, though, largely because it's an entirely different category of activity.  Just like being good at Chess, almost an entirely mental exercise, and being good at, say, Starcraft, one that combines physical ("twitch") and mental aspects, are both skills.  One isn't more skillful than the other, they are different activities. 

It's not so much a skill as how fast the different systems in your body can work together. It can be trained to a degree, the more you see a certain event the more your brain recognized the signs of that event and can prepare. But really, that's just a sharpening of our built in fight-or-flight response. Not really a skill. It's also something you can improve through artificial means. You can get a better surface for your mouse, you can purchase a better mouse, you can adjust your mouse's latency. All these things will improve your reaction times without any development on your end.

You just described pretty much every physical activity ever.  You know, like soccer, tennis, rugby, baseball, archery -activities that are universally recognized as involving skill.  Just because you can buy a better tennis racket doesn't mean that tennis doesn't take skill.  And like it or not, video games involve physically manipulating controls in real time.   

Timing, being able to read your opponents, knowing the capabilities of your tools and how best to use them...those are skills. Those are things that you can always improve and apart from getting dementia, you're not really going to get worse at it.

Being able to use that knowledge when it matters is what's skillful.  More options and faster paced gameplay puts a strain on the player, he has to really know his shit to be able to utilize what you mentioned when the pressure is on.  More options/speed, more pressure, more opportunities for skill to shine through.  Anyone can read their opponent when they have the luxury of time.  I think the word you used, "timing," is fairly illuminating.  It is harder and takes much more refinement to time things when you yourself have limited time.

You can make up for poor gameplay just by having good reflexes. Honestly the slower this game gets, the MORE skill you need to beat a good opponent. At that point if you lose, it's because they are better than you or you made a mistake. It's not because of things like latency (which has a HUGE effect especially when the game is sped up) or the fact that some 12 year old has a faster reaction time than you do.

Actually this really is starting to sound like, "I'm a tactical genius, I'm only losing (to 12 year olds apparently), because they are faster than me."  Um, if you think having faster reflexes than someone is somehow illegitimate and not part of "gameplay," well, maybe real time games aren't what you want.  I don't know, that sounds kind of mean, but I really can't wrap my head around complaining about someone having better reflexes than you in a category of activity that is explicitly reflex driven.  You can't be better than someone, but only lose because they are faster than you. 

I will leave this thread with a video of Joe Louis. He was "slow" as far as boxers go...but god damn did that guy know how to fight. Skill trumps twitch any day of the week.

Jesus Christ what is this shit?  Do you actually box or follow boxing?  Did you watch the video you posted?  As far as heavyweights go Joe Louis was incredibly fast, his handspeed was the hallmark of his style.  He had a regimented, shuffling advance in early rounds but he's an archetypal small, fast heavyweight.  He could TRIPLE up on left hooks, and throw them with power.  Yes, he was incredibly solid technically too, but he was goddamn fast.  In his heyday he was often hailed as the fastest heavyweight in the world.  Faster (and not by much) fighters have come and gone since then, but it blows my mind that you would bring up the Brown Bomber as a slow boxer. 

[Tears of Destiny]

Kaoklai uses wall of text...


It's super effective!

[Berserkadin]

Giving longer weapons slower turnspeeds makes perfect sense, and would be nice for balance, since reach = king in battle.

[CrazyCracka420]

I'd give you two +'s if I could kao...break that up into two posts

[Patoson]

I used to hate how pikes could "lolstab", but I wouldn't mind a complete reversion now.

[Bjord]

Kaoklai, that was a goddamned fine post.

To rustyspoon: Never saw such a dumb smart post.

Back on-topic: I think the turn rate is fine, never had an issue with it except first few days of the patch. Leave it as it is.

[rustyspoon]

Ze rebuttal:

It's not skill because you get worse at it with age?  What?  You realize Joe Louis got worse with age, right?  Pretty much every learned "skill" deteriorates with age.  If worsening with age precludes skill, then skill doesn't exist.  Being good at soccer isn't a skill?  Marksmanship isn't a skill?  This point is incredibly inane.

I think you are confusing physical prowess with skill. It may help to think of activities that are not sports-related. A skilled carpenter doesn't get worse at carpentry as he ages. He may need help lifting something up, but he sure as shit is a better craftsman than the other people around him. Ansel Adams didn't even hit his peak until old age. Annie Oakley in her 60's could shoot better than I ever could. By your definition, Beethoven's music would continue to get worse as his hearing went...yet it didn't. Don Fezell recently recorded the first ever 8-second pass in the history of Stock Eliminator driving. He was 73.

And where did I say that twitch-reflexes are the only kind of skill?  It isn't, but in a real time game, reacting in real time is pretty damn important.  Certainly, quick time events, take a kind of skill.  Being able to keep rhythm and react quickly in say DDR, which is essentially a giant QTE, is a skill.  I didn't and wouldn't say that they are the epitome of it, though, largely because it's an entirely different category of activity.  Just like being good at Chess, almost an entirely mental exercise, and being good at, say, Starcraft, one that combines physical ("twitch") and mental aspects, are both skills.  One isn't more skillful than the other, they are different activities. 

I do not consider twitch/reflexes a skill as it relies solely on your reaction time and motor skills. I'm not saying that activities that have reflex-based aspects are not skillful activities. I said that I don't consider something reflex-based to be a skill. The very first line of my last post was about that very fact. I find it very interesting that you bring up rhythm-based games as an example of twitch/reflex skill. I would argue that those are more of an example of learned behavior than an actual skill. If you've ever played guitar hero, you will know that after playing a while you don't even need to look at the screen. Even if you're good, the first time you play through a new song (at any kind of reasonable difficulty) you are going to stumble through it. If twitch/reflex was really a skill, a highly skilled player should be able to make it almost perfectly through any song even if they haven't played it before. I mean, all they're doing is hitting a button when a certain cue comes up.

You just described pretty much every physical activity ever.  You know, like soccer, tennis, rugby, baseball, archery -activities that are universally recognized as involving skill.  Just because you can buy a better tennis racket doesn't mean that tennis doesn't take skill.  And like it or not, video games involve physically manipulating controls in real time.   

I think you definitely misunderstood here. If I bought a "better" camera, I won't take better pictures. If I bought "better" golf clubs, they won't improve my swing. Buying a "better" tennis racket won't improve my serve. Adjusting the polling rate of your mouse will have a positive effect on your reaction time. See the difference?

Being able to use that knowledge when it matters is what's skillful.  More options and faster paced gameplay puts a strain on the player, he has to really know his shit to be able to utilize what you mentioned when the pressure is on.  More options/speed, more pressure, more opportunities for skill to shine through.  Anyone can read their opponent when they have the luxury of time.  I think the word you used, "timing," is fairly illuminating.  It is harder and takes much more refinement to time things when you yourself have limited time.

I think you misunderstand what I mean by timing. By having good timing, you know how fast certain things are. You know how long to your weapon connects. You know how long until your enemies weapon connects. You know exactly when to swing to beat their swing. You know exactly the right moment to chamber. You can fire a rocket and connect with someone mid-air because you know how to judge the difference in speed between them and your projectile. That is all skill. Speed the game up, slow it down, doesn't make a difference. Once that person gets used to the changes, they'll still be kicking ass.

Let's say you took CRPG and slowed it down to the point where the average player can block 100% of another player's attacks. How would you beat them? Obviously you would need to be more skilled than them. By faking them out, kicking, whatever, a skilled player will be able to work around their defenses and beat them. That is also why being slower would take more skill. Your opponent also has as much time to think as you do. It comes down to your raw skills. Now if you keep increasing the speed and don't stop, you will eventually come to the point where skill is trumped by reaction time. Have you ever played with 300 ping? That's a good way to simulate it. You may be better than everyone around you, but you'll still be getting your ass kicked. And that's only a difference of .3 seconds.

Actually this really is starting to sound like, "I'm a tactical genius, I'm only losing (to 12 year olds apparently), because they are faster than me."  Um, if you think having faster reflexes than someone is somehow illegitimate and not part of "gameplay," well, maybe real time games aren't what you want.  I don't know, that sounds kind of mean, but I really can't wrap my head around complaining about someone having better reflexes than you in a category of activity that is explicitly reflex driven.  You can't be better than someone, but only lose because they are faster than you. 

This goes back to my first point in my last post. CRPG is slow. I mean, it's REALLY slow. Compared to Unreal Tournament 2004, it's like our characters are 90 year old men in wheelchairs. I'm not complaining about the requirement of reflexes in games, I'm saying that using it to correct you making a mistake is dumb. Say we're in some modern FPS having a sniper duel. We both spot each other at the same time, we both raise our rifles at the same time and fire. I miss and I die. But what if I can quickly spin my mouse to the right and it causes my bullet to move also and go into you. That's CRPG. There is a HUGE disconnect between the movement rate of your character and your character's ability to spin around. People are are good at dueling with pikes build their whole playstyle around that fact. Like the fact that you can jump, and instantly do a 180 degree spin. If movement speed and turning speed had a closer correlation, it would make much more sense. In quake III rocket arena, sure you can turn fast as hell, but your movement is also incredibly fast. Having one aspect of your character being ridiculously slow and the other ridiculously fast is just dumb. Remember how those lumbering str build maul users would miss and then just drag the mouse over you, killing you? That is a perfect example of being able to correct your mistake which also renders dodging worthless. Either increase movement speed (good) or reduce turning speed, (bad) but character movements should be brought in line.

Jesus Christ what is this shit?  Do you actually box or follow boxing?  Did you watch the video you posted?  As far as heavyweights go Joe Louis was incredibly fast, his handspeed was the hallmark of his style.  He had a regimented, shuffling advance in early rounds but he's an archetypal small, fast heavyweight.  He could TRIPLE up on left hooks, and throw them with power.  Yes, he was incredibly solid technically too, but he was goddamn fast.  In his heyday he was often hailed as the fastest heavyweight in the world.  Faster (and not by much) fighters have come and gone since then, but it blows my mind that you would bring up the Brown Bomber as a slow boxer.

I'm guessing that you don't understand what it means to put a word in quotes when it is not a quotation. If you looked back, I said he was "slow". That would infer that it is not meant to be taken literally, but figuratively. Obviously he was fast. He could throw a punch must faster than I can. But as far as his boxing style, he was very "slow" and deliberate. He had excellent timing, fantastic control of his punches, and excellent footwork. He knew exactly when to move and by how much. Compare him to Muhammad Ali and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

I really, really think that the point of my last post just flew entirely over your head.

[a_bear_irl]

rusty, honestly it sounds like your vision for crpg is some fucked up medieval chess match - like you're literally arguing for not being able to correct  actions. yes, reading a fight is part of the game and a necessary skill, but so is reacting to the fight. this is a real time game and being able to react quickly is a part of the package. further, tracking with an overhead has nothing to do with reflexes. you've already acted, all you're doing now is tracking a target which is just an automatic brain hand-eye-coordination thing. same with leading a target. think to the last time threw a ball to someone, everything about the throw itself is automatic.

also, this isn't quake or QT and the only thing crpg has in common with thsoe games is the "videogame" part

being able to steer attacks is pretty much a necessary game component, anyway, yeah when maul guys would bounce off the ground and then steer it into you it sucked, but that was a necessary thing. currently even the slowest character can strafe faster than an overhead can be turned, which is why you don't see overheads in duels anymore.

and your timing argument doesn't make sense. as things get faster more mistakes get made. which is easier to block, flamberge or steel pick?

[Bjord]

Someone kindly help rustygoon out of this thread, he's burying himself into embarassment even further.