Haha I find it funny people are downvoting, does that mean you think these weapons don't promote teamplay? ;p maybe you should actually read the thread not just the title.
There is more to skill than just knowing how to feint/hold or block.
There is, but its unbelievable how many people dont block at all lol....
Pikes/Hoplites/Longspears sacrifice their 1v1 capabilities to excel in teamwork situations, you chose to be a duelist they chose to be a teamplayer. I'm not saying they can't 1v1, but they have a much easier time in groups. Just like you kinda have an easier time 1v1 while struggling in groups.
I feel that the drastically increased prevalance of long stabbing weapons, especially long spear and hoplites, has made mele fights more about numbers and less about skill. The argument being it is much harder to fight outnumbered when enemy has these weapons, for (hopefully) obvious reasons. This may have reduced the skill ceiling of the game.
The counter argument would be these weapons promote teamplay, make the game more about teamplay less about ramboing. I think this is also valid arguement, so I could it comes down to ones opinion on what is more important; teamwork or personal skill.
What do you guys think, is my reasoning valid? if so which is more important to you?
so I could it comesYou messed up my brain.
You messed up my brain.]
meh mode bacame shit.
If archers doesn't bully you,you will get killed by arabian pony lancer,or get ganked by hoplites who insta stab,or get spammed by 2h mace users or glaive poleaxers who backpedal.
If this combination doesn't kill you,you will die to 35 lvl shielder.
I am pray for all classes now. :( Q.Q
Alas, the game was already dumbed down by all the slow ass animations and co. where a single fight between two good players would turn out to be an endurance test rather than e-skill or visual memory.
It's not just long stabbing weapons, it's long weapons in general. Length is worth too much, especially with all the ganging up that people do. Take the most effective weapons right now and compare their stats to each other. The one thing almost all of them have in common, is length. I don't really think these weapons need a huge nerf, but there is certainly a disparity of effectiveness that is directly related to weapon length, and that is an issue.
Glaive
weapon length: 160
weight: 2.8
difficulty: 16
speed rating: 90
weapon length: 160
thrust damage: 22 pierce
swing damage: 39 cut
Hafted Blade
weapon length: 132
weight: 1.7
difficulty: 13
speed rating: 94
weapon length: 132
thrust damage: 20 pierce
swing damage: 36 cut
Four speed is somehow worth 30 length, 3 cut damage and 2 pierce? Really? I know the hafted blade is just a shitty weapon in general and greatly in need of a buff, but that's a bit excessive.
Danish Greatsword
weapon length: 124
weight: 2.5
difficulty: 15
speed rating: 92
weapon length: 124
thrust damage: 24 pierce
swing damage: 40 cut
Two-Handed Sword
weapon length: 110
weight: 2.2
difficulty: 12
speed rating: 95
weapon length: 110
thrust damage: 22 pierce
swing damage: 38 cut
Three speed for 2 cut and 10 length? No thanks, length, even if it is "only" 10 is way too effective, especially because you have to think about all the people that you're now able to out-range because of that 10 extra length.
As weapons get progressively shorter, the ratio of speed:length and Damage:length needs to be increased as compensation for increased loss in effectiveness due to being so much shorter than the average. It doesn't make sense that 5 length should always translate into x damage. The difference in effectiveness between 150 length and 160 length polearm weapons for example, is rather minimal but the difference between 110 length and a 120 length two-handed weapons, is quite large. The 150 length weapon has a range advantage on almost all of the weapons that the 160 length weapon has, but the 120 length weapon has a range advantage over the majority of the weapons in crpg while the 110 length weapon is only average or slightly above.
Also, 2h and polearms collision with walls are horribly broken. You can happily attack with a greatsword starting your swing in a wall, no problem. If the detection was more accurate we'd at least see less greatswords where they don't make any sense, like in a castle corridor.
This.
Also, 2h and polearms collision with walls are horribly broken. You can happily attack with a greatsword starting your swing in a wall, no problem. If the detection was more accurate we'd at least see less greatswords where they don't make any sense, like in a castle corridor.
Two-handers and polearms get stuck in walls a lot, definitely a ton more than one-handers. You just see what you want to see, I guess.
I've been 2H, 1H + shield, 1H without shield and polearm, all for more than 1 gen, and I can definitely say that for close quarters one-handers is a lot better (which they should be).
making the game faster doesnt really show whos more skilled. only who has better reflexes and a better pc/connectionReflexes are part of skill I'd say, the mod has been much faster in the past and native is still faster. A bit of a speed-up wouldn't harm anyone.
A bit of a speed-up wouldn't harm anyone.
Well apparently WPF curve is being reworked so maybe it will get faster, who knows.Yeah, and Strat 2 release date is December 2010. They announced it months ago i bet that they are not reworking the wpf curve at the moment or anytime soon...
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A game which determines the winner by pure reflexes is dumb, like Counter Strike or Call of Duty.
A game which determines the winner by pure reflexes is dumb, like Counter Strike or Call of Duty.There's a lot more to winning a 1vN (or a 1v1 for that matter) than reflexes. Being able to block quickly is important, but footwork, timing, and unpredictability are all also very important. Personally I feel that player skill should be the most important element of any player vs player game.
There is good positioning/strategy and numbers in those two games, it just happens with weapons capable of dealing damage with the speed and range of a bullet :D
There's a lot more to winning a 1vN (or a 1v1 for that matter) than reflexes. Being able to block quickly is important, but footwork, timing, and unpredictability are all also very important. Personally I feel that player skill should be the most important element of any player vs player game.
For that matter, Counter-Strike is also far from a purely reflex driven game (at least in organized play). Reflexes are important (mandatory, really), but there's an enormous amount of effort that goes into predicting what your opponents are doing and setting yourself up accordingly.
Still, with good reflexes, you will get out of most situations. I saw enough videos where someone was shot from behind, then turned around within a split second and placed a headshot. And not only once. In a game I would have designed, letting someone shoot you into the back would mean sure death.That very rarely happens in high level games. There's a reason clutch ace videos are enjoyed so much - clutches are a rarity. At high level play everybody has great reflexes and aim, so you can't rely on those alone.
If you have less than 50% teamwork, well skilled players won't need teamwork at all, and a whole aspect of the gameplay concept is being dropped.Only if the teams are stacked skill-wise. And frankly, if they are stacked, then the stacked team should win (and the autobalance should be improved).
I want to add that I am always talking about playing on public servers with random teams, and the average behaviour on those. Although I never played strategus I assume the amount of lone wolfing, Ramboing and suicide charges is much lower.People work together when it leads to interesting gameplay. Being forced into a blob where individual skill means little is boring, not interesting. Fighting a 5v1, or singling out an opponent tends to lead to far more enjoyable gameplay than sitting in a group while throwing out backstabs. As things stand right now I can just equip a long awlpike, sit in a blob, and score easy kills with little thought or skill. Effective, but boring.
It's not difficult to make a game where "clan vs. clan" or "guild vs. guild"-gameplay is really tactical, because the players themselves take care of it, as it's a neccessity.
The art is making a game where random people on public servers work together without need of communication. It is difficult, but not impossible, I've seen a few examples, Global Agenda would be one.
Satisfaction comes from conering a 2h with 2 hoplites and taking it in turns to stab in into a stun lock till death.
I think cRPG should be a fun game.
Situations such as these :
Are unfun. The guy fighting alone can't do anything (that is, how skilled he is has no influence), and the other two are just taking turns poking at him, which doesn't require much effort either.
Fighting in groups require a lot less muscle memory, that's for sure. And it's quite nice. But combat in MnB is also a lot about creativity (and alas, how to stifle that of your opponent). Combat in groups is just poking at someone when you think you have an opening. There are no tricks, and there are a lot of "automatic win" situations (like a long spear + great maul combo).
Imagine we push the concept of "teamplay should win" to the extreme : if 2v1 were always lost by the solo guy, the game would be more realistic but still ultra boring. Or at least not an action game anymore.
Don't get me wrong, teamplay is great and fun, but it shouldn't be an "I win" button or hinder the skill aspect of this game in any way.
do something to pike and long spear! it is very annoying how 300 reach weapon can stab you when you are 30cm away from the pike user.
This took over year to make on paint. this is how the pike in-game should look like.(click to show/hide)
Depends.
You could for example say, that if the 2hd gets cornered by two hoplites, he failed on the tactics part. At some point you need to benefit from tactical advantages.
Yes, but a tactical advantage shouldn't equal to an "I win" button. What's the point if the 2h can't possibly win ?
Not because i'm a hoplite, i say, the problem is longspears and pikes. Being a hoplite on 1v1 is already hard. But that longspears' jumpstabs are just crazy and fucked up.
Months ago i said remove the blocking ability of these two and people just didn't give a fuck.
Not because i'm a hoplite, i say, the problem is longspears and pikes. Being a hoplite on 1v1 is already hard. But that longspears' jumpstabs are just crazy and fucked up.
Months ago i said remove the blocking ability of these two and people just didn't give a fuck.
do something to pike and long spear! it is very annoying how 300 reach weapon can stab you when you are 30cm away from the pike user.
This took over year to make on paint. this is how the pike in-game should look like at the moment.(click to show/hide)
Longspears are gay, when you attack them they just block a few times then run away till they have the range and make a silly flexible-chopper-rotation-jump-poke.. And then it repeats, oh oh..
Pikes are fine, thank god only a few know ow to abuse it properly, whilst lngspear is just pick up & play
Oh you mean the same mechanic that allows 2h & polearms to hit you with hilt of weapon without weapon animation even firing and not blockable half the time?
I'm no expert but seems to me that 2h can hilt slash, polearm cant. and 1h left swing is by far the best at hiltslashing.
Oh you mean the same mechanic that allows 2h & polearms to hit you with hilt of weapon without weapon animation even firing and not blockable half the time?2H sword hilt is at least metal so it could do some damage :D Wooden pole not.
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No, 1h left swing spam is not hiltslashing (1h are incapable of it)
Not to mention brutal impact on 4directional polearmers populace caused by turn rate nerf.
Situations such as these :
Are unfun. The guy fighting alone can't do anything (that is, how skilled he is has no influence), and the other two are just taking turns poking at him, which doesn't require much effort either.
Fighting in groups require a lot less muscle memory, that's for sure. And it's quite nice. But combat in MnB is also a lot about creativity (and alas, how to stifle that of your opponent). Combat in groups is just poking at someone when you think you have an opening. There are no tricks, and there are a lot of "automatic win" situations (like a long spear + great maul combo).
Don't get me wrong, teamplay is great and fun, but it shouldn't be an "I win" button or hinder the skill aspect of this game in any way.
Team play is the most difficult skill in game to master. Don't get mad and say it isn't a skill!
Longspears are gay, when you attack them they just block a few times then run away till they have the range and make a silly flexible-chopper-rotation-jump-poke.. And then it repeats, oh oh..Block down. Also, jumping away? Get more agility and less strength.
This.
...
Only this way can hiltslashers repay their debts to humanity.
4-directional polearms was not hurt too much by the turn-nerf, especially compared to other weapons. Two-directional poles were hit the worst, especially the short and fast ones. 1H was also hit quite hard. The higher base speed, the more problems the turn-nerf caused. I found the two-directional worst considering they can't fall back on any good side-swings like the one-handers do. They only have the two nerfed directions, and the faster the animation the harder it is to adjust mid-swing. Forks are pretty shit without shield for example and the polearms stab is fast, which means almost no chance to adjust.So because peoples are masochists we have increased populace of pikers and hoplites :shock:
Not sure if it was in this thread or not, but this is basically helping the point I made of skill not being determined by your ability to feint or block. I spend my time as a spearman on NH and predicting my clanmates is a mission and a half. Especially Turboflex. I've been playing with him for almost a year and still can't understand his movements. (Hint: I hit him more than the enemy to this day)
The Hoplite clan was really good at working together.
However, your example is kind of one sided. Thats like saying Team A made great guns but no bullets, and Team B made great bullets but no guns. Now in your example, team A has only the guns but B has both. Hardly fair. But keep them separate, Team A would beat B because they have big rifles that can now be used as clubs. (A = teamwork, B = individual skill)
Now that I'm done talking crap, yes you need both. But again I say, because you personally know how to feint and block and fight as an individual you will still lose versus a coordinated effort from other people.
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Also, if greatmaul + longspear was such an automatic win, why do they sometimes you know...lose? That combo has 2 glaring weaknesses. 1, easily kitable by archers and destroyed by throwing. 2, they are both using very SLOW weapons that work at extreme ranges (very short range, vs very long range). This is a situation where a 2h greatsword kuyak user is actually optimal (add throwing and it is a complete counter)
long wepons havn't dumbed down game, dumbed down game have long wepons.Basically this.
Blueknight, I want video proof that knights can do a frontflip in full armor :D
Sum it up. Long spear wasn't very popular back in time despite it had many more advantages than now.
What......Ye it was abused but currently there are more longspearmen than that time.
Back in the day everyone brought a long spear up their ass and would follow around in huge groups over heading through their team mates and hitting the enemy. It was pretty much uber abused by everyone, honestly pretty much became a necessity for melee fights to have at least a few pike guys behind their team mates using over head spam that wouldn't touch your team mates due to awesome warband mechanics (that got fixed thankfully)
That's what I remember.
What......There's a reason no sheathe weapons happened, and if I remember correctly, this is it. +1 Mori, you sexy, sexy beast.
Back in the day everyone brought a long spear up their ass and would follow around in huge groups over heading through their team mates and hitting the enemy. It was pretty much uber abused by everyone, honestly pretty much became a necessity for melee fights to have at least a few pike guys behind their team mates using over head spam that wouldn't touch your team mates due to awesome warband mechanics (that got fixed thankfully)
That's what I remember.
Game is fine atm, really fine :)that fonts
I play less and less but have fun when I do,
really feels nice with less heroes and more tactics,
some tweakin at Greatswords, SpamBecDeFrance and Steel Pick wouldn`t hurt though :D
>nope.jpg
Alas, the game was already dumbed down by all the slow ass animations and co. where a single fight between two good players would turn out to be an endurance test rather than e-skill or visual memory.
This dumbing down on the bright side, encouraged team-play and the multiplicity of "classes".