Have long stabbing weapons dumbed down the game?

[Swaggart]

Fine, Hoplites may be a bad example, but what I said is still true. You said skill is not determined by individual skill, which I think is nonsense

Now that I'm done talking crap, yes you need both. But again I say, because you personally know how to feint and block and fight as an individual you will still lose versus a coordinated effort from other people.

Of course, but team work skill develops after you become better individually. Team work is largely dependent on not team hitting, and that only comes from better duel skills. It is only once you know how to utilize footwork and the various swing animations against an individual opponent can you properly apply them in a group situation with teammates and enemies around. Otherwise, you will either get your swing stuck  on team mates which leaves you defenceless, or you will team wound. Awareness is just as important when battling a single opponent as when fighting many, but it is much easier to learn when you only have yourself and one person to worry about. Throw a person with bad awareness into a group fight and he's a liability.

[Elindor]

Some longspear users are deadly, some are not...my only real complaint is illustrated by this: 

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The jump away spin is largely just annoying and silly looking...as Zan said block down.  Although, I have 7 Ath and 21 Agi and its still hard to bridge that gap because I use a short ass longsword which is barely longer than a 1h   So I get killed by the jump spin when I forget that they are gonna get the stab off on me before I can reach them....also when I forget that longspears are not subject to the laws of physics....kinda like subatomic particles!

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[Zanze]

Goddamnit. Elindor, I meant to upvote you. That spoiler made me laugh IRL.

Edit: Nvm...Apparently it changed to an upvote...I knew that...

[WITCHCRAFT]

I agree with others who say that spears promote teamwork. Especially when you are playing with strangers, it is a great feeling when you and some guy get into a rhythm of flanking and taking out enemies who stray too far alone. Some maps like commercial city have great spots for polearms to line up and take down cavalry as well. People complain about cav 24/7 so I think that's a good thing.

I don't feel like there are more spearmen/hoplites/pikemen/whatever than any other class.

[Rextard]

As long as 2handers can glitch through other models to pull off strikes or turn their torsos more than their flesh bones or armor would allow, til it looks like fabric twisting over itself, long spear weapons should be doin all kinds of retarded unicorn maneuvers. 

[Kafein]

Also, if greatmaul + longspear was such an automatic win, why do they sometimes you know...lose? That combo has 2 glaring weaknesses. 1, easily kitable by archers and destroyed by throwing. 2, they are both using very SLOW weapons that work at extreme ranges (very short range, vs very long range). This is a situation where a 2h greatsword kuyak user is actually optimal (add throwing and it is a complete counter)

A 2h (btw I'm not one myself, if that helps), or any other melee for that matter, is more or less doomed in that situation. The two guys cooperating aren't dumb. The pikeman forces the 2h to downblock, but the 2h is forced to attack to avoid being CTed by the maul. He has to do one or the other. If he blocks, he gets crushed by the maul, if he attacks, he gets pierced by the pike. The slowness of these weapons is not relevant since the pike will be ready to strike before the combat begins.

Furthermore, it's worth noting that about any melee class + a maul or a pike becomes a deadly combo.

[genric]

     Using the pike in a team situation is fine and anything promoting teamwork is a plus. It is just dumb that if you run up on a pike and they turn around they do massive amounts of damage because they rubbed the pole on you and you got a splinter.
     If they made the poles and spears only able to do damage at the tip it would promote actual teamwork because then these massive polearms wont just hop spin and stab killing people a foot or so in front of them when in truth they should be rendered useless forcing the player to draw a sidearm like a one handed sword making it more realistic and less silly.

(side swings don't need this rule because they are side swinging the spear/polearm)

[Relit]

Pikes do not hit people that are face-hugging. Long spears do. The more people understand this the better.

[Artyem]

Or if you're Relit, your pike is made of god and will stab people regardless of how close they are to you.

[BlueKnight]

Sum it up. Long spear wasn't very popular back in time despite it had many more advantages than now. What happened to long spear.

- It lost overhead ability,
- You can't stab with it through the ground,
- It is unbalanced
- It lost some damage (not sure if I remember properly or not),
- Spinning with stab got nerfed,
- Long spear takes 3 slots
- You can't do overhead through teammates anymore, (different point because it was different issue)
- Stun got removed.

Now you can see how the players got better with long spear not how op it is. Those are players who adjusted to the new shape of the field of battle. Evolution etc. After getting nerfed they have to become better with that shit to be effective and you can see this also with other classes.

For example many more archers started aiming to the head when bows got nerfed (dmg nerf or sth). You probably remembr that. After they got unnerfed we have much more aiming and deadly archers now.

Same goes with 2h which was having it's stab animations changed in many patches and it was always supposed to nerf 2h and they are nearly as good with stab as they were because they got to know how to fight again. They adjusted and became better players.

Not to mention that cav lost the angle years ago and was losing damage&speed on heavy lance and had to adjust to backstabbing and perfect timing as it is the best way to succed as a cav. Also increased requirement for horses had it's influence on builds of players.

All I wanted to say is that the more you nerf, the better players  become and do wonders with shit on a stick. If nothing was nerfed people wouldn't have to change and become better to survive but currently the environment of the field of battle forces people to find new ways to survive.

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Some people say that jumping knight in armour is a retarded idea coming from the moon but those people don't know that a well trained true Knight could do front flip in full plate. I guess that If I started my training in the age of 7 or sth I could do it as well. Those guys didn't have computers and could spend all damn life training and fighting so I at least expect the ability to jump but that's the sidenote.

[Akynos]

Blueknight, I want video proof that knights can do a frontflip in full armor

[ThePoopy]

long wepons havn't dumbed down game, dumbed down game have long wepons.

[Teeth]

long wepons havn't dumbed down game, dumbed down game have long wepons.

Basically this.

[BlueKnight]

Blueknight, I want video proof that knights can do a frontflip in full armor

There was a programme which also showed getting back to the vertical position on a horseback from horizontal position in full plate etc. Knight is str and agi.

[Memento_Mori]

Sum it up. Long spear wasn't very popular back in time despite it had many more advantages than now.

What......


Back in the day everyone brought a long spear up their ass and would follow around in huge groups over heading through their team mates and hitting the enemy. It was pretty much uber abused by everyone, honestly pretty much became a necessity for melee fights to have at least a few pike guys behind their team mates using over head spam that wouldn't touch your team mates due to awesome warband mechanics (that got fixed thankfully)

That's what I remember.