Have long stabbing weapons dumbed down the game?

[Banok]

You messed up my brain.

]

fixed, I cant proof read for shit. you should have seen my dissertation ;p

[CrazyCracka420]

I think it's good that teamwork and teamplay is promoted more than individual skill.  2 skilled players working together will still be better than 2 unskilled players working together.  But it makes sense, it's a medieval war simulator and I'm glad we've reached the point where you're better off 2v1 (or 2vmany) than 1v1 or 1vmany.

[Kafein]

Ho god, back in the days when only 5 people out of 100 actually knew what to do when fighting with a numerical advantage, how awesome was it to be slightly better than the others. The joy of slaying a dozen of enemies as the last survivor of your team. All of this is long forgotten now, not because of the weapons, but because people know how to (team)play. Game's getting old, that's all there is to it.

As I remember very well how awesome it was either to do it yourself or being shattered like other puny opponents to a god of the battlefield, I can wholeheartedly say it is a shame we lost that aspect of cRPG, but there is alas nothing that can be done about it.

[LordBerenger]

meh mode bacame shit.
If archers doesn't bully you,you will get killed by arabian pony lancer,or get ganked by hoplites who insta stab,or get spammed by 2h mace users or glaive poleaxers who backpedal.
If this combination doesn't kill you,you will die to 35 lvl shielder.

I am pray for all classes now. Q.Q

Constantly thrust with your 2h greatswords whilst pressing the S key at the same time.


There, now i just made you effective again!

[Tydeus]

It's not just long stabbing weapons, it's long weapons in general. Length is worth too much, especially with all the ganging up that people do. Take the most effective weapons right now and compare their stats to each other. The one thing almost all of them have in common, is length. I don't really think these weapons need a huge nerf, but there is certainly a disparity of effectiveness that is directly related to weapon length, and that is an issue.

Glaive
weapon length: 160
weight: 2.8
difficulty: 16
speed rating: 90
weapon length: 160
thrust damage: 22 pierce
swing damage: 39 cut

Hafted Blade
weapon length: 132
weight: 1.7
difficulty: 13
speed rating: 94
weapon length: 132
thrust damage: 20 pierce
swing damage: 36 cut

Four speed is somehow worth 30 length, 3 cut damage and 2 pierce? Really? I know the hafted blade is just a shitty weapon in general and greatly in need of a buff, but that's a bit excessive.

Danish Greatsword
weapon length: 124
weight: 2.5
difficulty: 15
speed rating: 92
weapon length: 124
thrust damage: 24 pierce
swing damage: 40 cut

Two-Handed Sword
weapon length: 110
weight: 2.2
difficulty: 12
speed rating: 95
weapon length: 110
thrust damage: 22 pierce
swing damage: 38 cut

Three speed for 2 cut and 10 length? No thanks, length, even if it is "only" 10 is way too effective, especially because you have to think about all the people that you're now able to out-range because of that 10 extra length.

As weapons get progressively shorter, the ratio of speed:length and Damage:length needs to be increased as compensation for increased loss in effectiveness due to being so much shorter than the average. It doesn't make sense that 5 length should always translate into x damage. The difference in effectiveness between 150 length and 160 length polearm weapons for example, is rather minimal but the difference between 110 length and a 120 length two-handed weapons, is quite large. The 150 length weapon has a range advantage on almost all of the weapons that the 160 length weapon has, but the 120 length weapon has a range advantage over the majority of the weapons in crpg while the 110 length weapon is only average or slightly above.

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

I think the OP is talking mostly about pikes, long spears, ashwood pikes and shield and spear. I dont often see glaives or 2h's being used as a stabbing support weapon.

[Gurnisson]

Alas, the game was already dumbed down by all the slow ass animations and co. where a single fight between two good players would turn out to be an endurance test rather than e-skill or visual memory.

This, pretty much.

However, the only reason I'm piking is that the skill ceiling is extremely high, and there's always room for improvement. Even though it's a 1 direction weapon I find the amount of possible options great, and getting it all to work out is a great feeling

[Kafein]

It's not just long stabbing weapons, it's long weapons in general. Length is worth too much, especially with all the ganging up that people do. Take the most effective weapons right now and compare their stats to each other. The one thing almost all of them have in common, is length. I don't really think these weapons need a huge nerf, but there is certainly a disparity of effectiveness that is directly related to weapon length, and that is an issue.

Glaive
weapon length: 160
weight: 2.8
difficulty: 16
speed rating: 90
weapon length: 160
thrust damage: 22 pierce
swing damage: 39 cut

Hafted Blade
weapon length: 132
weight: 1.7
difficulty: 13
speed rating: 94
weapon length: 132
thrust damage: 20 pierce
swing damage: 36 cut

Four speed is somehow worth 30 length, 3 cut damage and 2 pierce? Really? I know the hafted blade is just a shitty weapon in general and greatly in need of a buff, but that's a bit excessive.

Danish Greatsword
weapon length: 124
weight: 2.5
difficulty: 15
speed rating: 92
weapon length: 124
thrust damage: 24 pierce
swing damage: 40 cut

Two-Handed Sword
weapon length: 110
weight: 2.2
difficulty: 12
speed rating: 95
weapon length: 110
thrust damage: 22 pierce
swing damage: 38 cut

Three speed for 2 cut and 10 length? No thanks, length, even if it is "only" 10 is way too effective, especially because you have to think about all the people that you're now able to out-range because of that 10 extra length.

As weapons get progressively shorter, the ratio of speed:length and Damage:length needs to be increased as compensation for increased loss in effectiveness due to being so much shorter than the average. It doesn't make sense that 5 length should always translate into x damage. The difference in effectiveness between 150 length and 160 length polearm weapons for example, is rather minimal but the difference between 110 length and a 120 length two-handed weapons, is quite large. The 150 length weapon has a range advantage on almost all of the weapons that the 160 length weapon has, but the 120 length weapon has a range advantage over the majority of the weapons in crpg while the 110 length weapon is only average or slightly above.

This.


Also, 2h and polearms collision with walls are horribly broken. You can happily attack with a greatsword starting your swing in a wall, no problem. If the detection was more accurate we'd at least see less greatswords where they don't make any sense, like in a castle corridor.

[Gurnisson]

Also, 2h and polearms collision with walls are horribly broken. You can happily attack with a greatsword starting your swing in a wall, no problem. If the detection was more accurate we'd at least see less greatswords where they don't make any sense, like in a castle corridor.

Two-handers and polearms get stuck in walls a lot, definitely a ton more than one-handers. You just see what you want to see, I guess.

I've been 2H, 1H + shield, 1H without shield and polearm, all for more than 1 gen, and I can definitely say that for close quarters one-handers is a lot better (which they should be).

[Elindor]

This.

Also, 2h and polearms collision with walls are horribly broken. You can happily attack with a greatsword starting your swing in a wall, no problem. If the detection was more accurate we'd at least see less greatswords where they don't make any sense, like in a castle corridor.

I think Kafein has touched on something here. 

Long weapons SHOULD have an advantage at distance....
THE PROBLEM is that they don't necessarily LOSE an appropriate amount of that advantage when forced into closer range because of limits to the physics engine of the game...

EDITED FOR BREVITY

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I think if anything these weapons just need more hit detection with surrounding objects (getting stuck) and more reliance on actually hitting with the tip of the spear for max damage.  Also maybe slower parrying based on weight x length?  These are giant 12+ ft poles (not sure exactly) and you shouldnt be able to hoist them around like quarterstaves.

[Kafein]

Two-handers and polearms get stuck in walls a lot, definitely a ton more than one-handers. You just see what you want to see, I guess.

I've been 2H, 1H + shield, 1H without shield and polearm, all for more than 1 gen, and I can definitely say that for close quarters one-handers is a lot better (which they should be).

That's true when you swing randomly.

But let's say you start a 2h right swing and hold it, move in order to be touching a wall to your right, you can totally swing in this situation even though the weapon is almost entirely in a solid object. Same with polearm side swings.

This issue is not nearly as bad with 1h, primarily because the animations and hit detection windows are not as forgiving. Especially with the right swing, there's no way you can swing though walls with a 1h.


EDIT : I think the best and most realistic way to go around this issue would be to add a passive collision mesh to all weapons. You can't pass a doorway holding a pike sideways. Nor can you make a full 360 spin near a wall while holding a 2h swing.

[Osiris]

Its called human nature, battles will resemble rl more and more as people group up and use spears shields and ranged more. There is a reason that they were the most used weapons in history over suicidal 2h :-P luckily this game has stuff for all so you can be a fantasy 2h lightsaberer and be effective just remember its a battle your not supposed to be able to kill whole groups just because your better individually

[Pejlaen]

I think that teamplay should always be the core of the game, and then there will sometimes be the excessive elements of really really good players that with their skill levels stand outside most equations and pull of things that doesnt seem realistic to others.

[CrazyCracka420]

You still have really great melee players who stand out on the battlefield. 

[Taser]

I'm glad and not glad that people are using long spears/pikes along with hoplite builds. I'm glad because now people are getting into different builds and supporting their team (and a few long spear users are just as effective 1v1 as they are support).

I'm not glad because I like fighting groups solo. Not because I'm suicidal or love the challenge (although it is fun to fight outnumbered) but because group fights as a shielder are, a lot of the times, easier than individual fights. People drop their guard more and I can get a hit in easier on someone because they think I'm going for the other guy, etc. Long spears mess that up since its hard to reach them so it makes group fights harder than an individual fight when one of those is in the mix.

So tbh I'm very glad they're becoming more popular. They're a boon to a team when they're used correctly and when they stick to their team. Even if they mess me up in group fights.