Have long stabbing weapons dumbed down the game?

[Joker86]

I want to add that I am always talking about playing on public servers with random teams, and the average behaviour on those. Although I never played strategus I assume the amount of lone wolfing, Ramboing and suicide charges is much lower.

It's not difficult to make a game where "clan vs. clan" or "guild vs. guild"-gameplay is really tactical, because the players themselves take care of it, as it's a neccessity.

The art is making a game where random people on public servers work together without need of communication. It is difficult, but not impossible, I've seen a few examples, Global Agenda would be one.

[Vodner]

I want to add that I am always talking about playing on public servers with random teams, and the average behaviour on those. Although I never played strategus I assume the amount of lone wolfing, Ramboing and suicide charges is much lower.

It's not difficult to make a game where "clan vs. clan" or "guild vs. guild"-gameplay is really tactical, because the players themselves take care of it, as it's a neccessity.

The art is making a game where random people on public servers work together without need of communication. It is difficult, but not impossible, I've seen a few examples, Global Agenda would be one.

People work together when it leads to interesting gameplay. Being forced into a blob where individual skill means little is boring, not interesting. Fighting a 5v1, or singling out an opponent tends to lead to far more enjoyable gameplay than sitting in a group while throwing out backstabs. As things stand right now I can just equip a long awlpike, sit in a blob, and score easy kills with little thought or skill. Effective, but boring.

Best way to make blob fighting interesting is to simply remove any sort of comfort zone for players. Make it so that if you want to contribute usefully to group combat, then you have to be constantly defending yourself. Make is so that you are constantly at risk of getting killed if you screw up even a little.

[Kafein]

I think cRPG should be a fun game.

Situations such as these :

Satisfaction comes from conering a 2h with 2 hoplites and taking it in turns to stab in into a stun lock till death.

Are unfun. The guy fighting alone can't do anything (that is, how skilled he is has no influence), and the other two are just taking turns poking at him, which doesn't require much effort either.

Fighting in groups require a lot less muscle memory, that's for sure. And it's quite nice. But combat in MnB is also a lot about creativity (and alas, how to stifle that of your opponent). Combat in groups is just poking at someone when you think you have an opening. There are no tricks, and there are a lot of "automatic win" situations (like a long spear + great maul combo).

Imagine we push the concept of "teamplay should win" to the extreme : if 2v1 were always lost by the solo guy, the game would be more realistic but still ultra boring. Or at least not an action game anymore.


Don't get me wrong, teamplay is great and fun, but it shouldn't be an "I win" button or hinder the skill aspect of this game in any way.

[Herkkutatti666]

do something to pike and long spear! it is very annoying how 300 reach weapon can stab you when you are 30cm away from the pike user.


This took over year to make on paint. this is how the pike in-game should look like at the moment.

(click to show/hide)

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[Joker86]

I think cRPG should be a fun game.

Situations such as these :

Are unfun. The guy fighting alone can't do anything (that is, how skilled he is has no influence), and the other two are just taking turns poking at him, which doesn't require much effort either.

Fighting in groups require a lot less muscle memory, that's for sure. And it's quite nice. But combat in MnB is also a lot about creativity (and alas, how to stifle that of your opponent). Combat in groups is just poking at someone when you think you have an opening. There are no tricks, and there are a lot of "automatic win" situations (like a long spear + great maul combo).

Imagine we push the concept of "teamplay should win" to the extreme : if 2v1 were always lost by the solo guy, the game would be more realistic but still ultra boring. Or at least not an action game anymore.


Don't get me wrong, teamplay is great and fun, but it shouldn't be an "I win" button or hinder the skill aspect of this game in any way.

Depends.

You could for example say, that if the 2hd gets cornered by two hoplites, he failed on the tactics part. At some point you need to benefit from tactical advantages.

[Formless]

do something to pike and long spear! it is very annoying how 300 reach weapon can stab you when you are 30cm away from the pike user.


This took over year to make on paint. this is how the pike in-game should look like.

(click to show/hide)

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Totally agree with this, getting hit like this  is ultra annoying.  Only the point of a pike should be considered a legal hit.  Every weapon should have its proper place and use.  Pikes and long spears should be gold at long ranges for support and they should be poor choices close up chest to chest. 

[Kafein]

Depends.

You could for example say, that if the 2hd gets cornered by two hoplites, he failed on the tactics part. At some point you need to benefit from tactical advantages.

Yes, but a tactical advantage shouldn't equal to an "I win" button. What's the point if the 2h can't possibly win ?

[Gurnisson]

As of now, it's not impossible to win against two hoplites with a two-hander, far from it. Good movement is key. Also, shielders are boss at fighting against multiple opponents, so if one complains about dying in ganks as a two-hander, one could always go shielder instead. Taking on multiple opponents is one of their main strengths.

[Rumblood]

Team play is the most difficult skill in game to master. Don't get mad and say it isn't a skill!

[Sultan Eren]

Not because i'm a hoplite, i say, the problem is longspears and pikes. Being a hoplite on 1v1 is already hard. But that longspears' jumpstabs are just crazy and fucked up.

Months ago i said remove the blocking ability of these two and people just didn't give a fuck.

[Joker86]

Yes, but a tactical advantage shouldn't equal to an "I win" button. What's the point if the 2h can't possibly win ?

1 hoplite in the corner against two 2hd. Chances to win? Let alone the pikeman, who can only block in one direction. On the other hand the 2hd in the corner needs to block only in one direction, if he manages to block once.

Tactic shouldn't be an autowin, I agree, but some situations are simply that extreme that you can't do anything about it. Like the one your described. Being cornered by two enemies is always incredibly bad, unless you are a shielder. And even then it's ugly if they block you well so you can't move. 

It's difficult in ArmA2 to hit a helicopter with an RPG, it's close to impossible... unless the helicopter is just landing to drop off troops... you know what I mean? 

Not because i'm a hoplite, i say, the problem is longspears and pikes. Being a hoplite on 1v1 is already hard. But that longspears' jumpstabs are just crazy and fucked up.

Months ago i said remove the blocking ability of these two and people just didn't give a fuck.

This is a very plain way to nerf them beyond the ground, and would definitely kill this class which already has to suffer from most disadvantages of all classes. And it's the class which is depending most on teammates, as on its own it's completely useless. It deserves being annoying, deadly and efficient in combination with others.

[Felix]

Lol, another hate-love thread.

The longer the weapon is, the lower damage becomes and you lose ability to duel as well. It's that simple. Hoplites have durability (shield) and pretty nice damage + duel capacity, but crappy distance advantage, and pikers have longest weapon in the game, but everything else sucks pretty much.

[Grumpy_Nic]

Not because i'm a hoplite, i say, the problem is longspears and pikes. Being a hoplite on 1v1 is already hard. But that longspears' jumpstabs are just crazy and fucked up.

Months ago i said remove the blocking ability of these two and people just didn't give a fuck.

Yeah, remove blocking. Also, while we're at it remove the ability to attack as a whole because 1 attack direction is just too much for long spear and pike. Jumpattacks are stupid in general, with every weapon. Jumping with plate armour is stupid and jumpshooting is stupid.

[Digglez]

do something to pike and long spear! it is very annoying how 300 reach weapon can stab you when you are 30cm away from the pike user.


This took over year to make on paint. this is how the pike in-game should look like at the moment.

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Oh you mean the same mechanic that allows 2h & polearms to hit you with hilt of weapon without weapon animation even firing and not blockable half the time?

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[Joseph Porta]

Longspears are gay, when you attack them they just block a few times then run away till they have the range and make a silly flexible-chopper-rotation-jump-poke.. And then it repeats, oh oh..

Pikes are fine, thank god only a few know ow to abuse it properly, whilst lngspear is just pick up & play