Have long stabbing weapons dumbed down the game?

[Grumpy_Nic]

Longspears are gay, when you attack them they just block a few times then run away till they have the range and make a silly flexible-chopper-rotation-jump-poke.. And then it repeats, oh oh..

Pikes are fine, thank god only a few know ow to abuse it properly, whilst lngspear is just pick up & play

True. Also ranged is just point & click, crushthrough is just overhead spam, lancer is just pressing W & X, shielder is just right mouse click, etc. No skill in this game, oh sorry I forgot 2h kuyaks, they are the only ones that need skill cuz the whole game is a duel.

[Akynos]

Anyone who is good at this game has some skill, in a way or the other.

Good ranged have great prediction skills.

Good 2h/polearmers have great blocking/feinting/footwork skills

Good pikers have great team awareness and timing.

Good cav have great sneaking,timing and aiming skills.

Come to think of it, anyone who has a good score / k/d has some degree of skill, otherwise he would not be sucessful.

We all have seen archers who, despite having the best equipment, couldn't predict for shit and missed all the time.

So have we seen kuyak-style newbies who couldn't block for shit.

What about shitty pikers? If you don't know one, remember me !

Bad cavs? I personally take great pleasure slashing them from their horses!


So what does this tell us? Despite some minor unbalances, weapons or classes do not define a battlefield hero. One who has the skills will win. Always. If two hoplites take down a 2hander, let us not talk about how boring/ skilless it is to pinball the 2 hander around. If the 2hander got caught, he is weaker than his enemies, period. Why? Because he /left his team/didnt help his teammates so they died/ is not good enough to parry the attacks. There is no diceroll in this game.
If a group of pikers manages to kill the enemies, its not because they are pikers. Its because they know how to play it.

Anyway, this isn't a reason to not rage at them of course Nothing more annoying than being stabbed to death !

[Kafein]

Oh you mean the same mechanic that allows 2h & polearms to hit you with hilt of weapon without weapon animation even firing and not blockable half the time?

This.

All hiltslashers should have their eyes pierced by a very slowly moving drill, their nails shot with a nailgun, their bodyhair plucked one by one, be subjected to one hour of repeated fake drowning, then lose one leg in acid and the other in fire, not simultaneously of course, and die due to their head slowly being compressed by a trash compacter.

Only this way can hiltslashers repay their debts to humanity.

[Banok]

I'm no expert but seems to me that 2h can hilt slash, polearm cant. and 1h left swing is by far the best at hiltslashing.

[Kafein]

I'm no expert but seems to me that 2h can hilt slash, polearm cant. and 1h left swing is by far the best at hiltslashing.

No, 1h left swing spam is not hiltslashing (1h are incapable of it)

Some 1h lamers do that by holding a swing, releasing it and immediately attack left while turning to the right. It's basically a timing/mindfucking trick and has nothing to do with broken sweetspots. It's not much better though, it's still a variation on spam.

Also, polearms such as poleaxes, glaives, GLA and GLB are incredibly easy to hiltslash with.

[Herkkutatti666]

Oh you mean the same mechanic that allows 2h & polearms to hit you with hilt of weapon without weapon animation even firing and not blockable half the time?

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2H sword hilt is at least metal so it could do some damage Wooden pole  not.

[Gurnisson]

No, 1h left swing spam is not hiltslashing (1h are incapable of it)

Can hiltslash with any weapon, be it a two-hander, a polearm or a one-hander. However, with the lower base damage of 1H weapons you might be more prone to glancing, depending on the enemy's armor and hp.

[Piok]

Total amount of pierce/blunt weapons nowadays on Eu is unbearable.
We have pikers, alsopikers(2h stabbast...), pierce archers, xbowmen, plague of miners (pick and so on), plague of smiths, facetrowers, motorised unit of backstabbers.
In this situation one must ask why to hell I am using armor at all. You will see almost no difference between lamellar vest up to rus lammelar cuirras and armors higher are really expansive so you go cav rather.
So its nothing else than evolution that so many goes piker. You are out of reach of enemy you can go lightly armored with strenght build with decent speed and brutal stab damage or go 2h hero like, constant stabbing and when something comes near just switch to spam mode. Or being shielded sewing machine with Op pick and unbreakable shield, all thanks to poleaxers become 2hheroes  or pikers.
Not to mention brutal impact on 4directional polearmers populace caused by turn rate nerf. 

Btw. why any of onehanders does not have unblalanced trait :

[Gurnisson]

Not to mention brutal impact on 4directional polearmers populace caused by turn rate nerf. 

4-directional polearms was not hurt too much by the turn-nerf, especially compared to other weapons. Two-directional poles were hit the worst, especially the short and fast ones. 1H was also hit quite hard. The higher base speed, the more problems the turn-nerf caused. I found the two-directional worst considering they can't fall back on any good side-swings like the one-handers do. They only have the two nerfed directions, and the faster the animation the harder it is to adjust mid-swing. Forks are pretty shit without shield for example and the polearms stab is fast, which means almost no chance to adjust.

[Zanze]

Situations such as these :

Are unfun. The guy fighting alone can't do anything (that is, how skilled he is has no influence), and the other two are just taking turns poking at him, which doesn't require much effort either.

Fighting in groups require a lot less muscle memory, that's for sure. And it's quite nice. But combat in MnB is also a lot about creativity (and alas, how to stifle that of your opponent). Combat in groups is just poking at someone when you think you have an opening. There are no tricks, and there are a lot of "automatic win" situations (like a long spear + great maul combo).

Don't get me wrong, teamplay is great and fun, but it shouldn't be an "I win" button or hinder the skill aspect of this game in any way.

If you are a 2h, and you get cornered by two hoplites, and you for whatever reason release your downblock BEFORE getting out of the corner. You deserve to die. If you are in that situation you have played so many wrong moves that there is no reason you should be rewarded anything other than death. Also, you underestimate how hard it is to actually co-ordinate teamwork.

Also, if greatmaul + longspear was such an automatic win, why do they sometimes you know...lose? That combo has 2 glaring weaknesses. 1, easily kitable by archers and destroyed by throwing. 2, they are both using very SLOW weapons that work at extreme ranges (very short range, vs very long range). This is a situation where a 2h greatsword kuyak user is actually optimal (add throwing and it is a complete counter)

Team play is the most difficult skill in game to master. Don't get mad and say it isn't a skill!

Not sure if it was in this thread or not, but this is basically helping the point I made of skill not being determined by your ability to feint or block. I spend my time as a spearman on NH and predicting my clanmates is a mission and a half. Especially Turboflex. I've been playing with him for almost a year and still can't understand his movements. (Hint: I hit him more than the enemy to this day)

Longspears are gay, when you attack them they just block a few times then run away till they have the range and make a silly flexible-chopper-rotation-jump-poke.. And then it repeats, oh oh..

Block down. Also, jumping away? Get more agility and less strength.

This.
...

Only this way can hiltslashers repay their debts to humanity.

Yes.

[Piok]

4-directional polearms was not hurt too much by the turn-nerf, especially compared to other weapons. Two-directional poles were hit the worst, especially the short and fast ones. 1H was also hit quite hard. The higher base speed, the more problems the turn-nerf caused. I found the two-directional worst considering they can't fall back on any good side-swings like the one-handers do. They only have the two nerfed directions, and the faster the animation the harder it is to adjust mid-swing. Forks are pretty shit without shield for example and the polearms stab is fast, which means almost no chance to adjust.

So because peoples are masochists we have increased populace of pikers and hoplites
I never guess that.

I can understand poleaxers go 2h because of better reach (specially stab), more forgiving animation and better anticav. And for pikes and longspears they are so slow that you could easily do pikewiggle and other nasty tricks not to mention brutal speed bonus caused by slownesses, it must come from same clever head which "nerfed" heavy lance by reducing its speed.
For forks and other high speed polearms biggest nerf was polestagger gone.
Specially forkers and other under 160 polearmers now have dilemma cause almost everything except 1h shielders has longer reach then them and increase in ranged call for shield. So we have more hoplites with shorter but still fast polearms used by one hand which adds to their range and to compensate damage reduction they become more strenght orientated so slower which means shield is even more needed.
As poleaxer I mean poleaxer with german and other expansive thingies which have antishield trait. They could go 2h(+- same price, no atishield ) or glaive ( cheaper longer, no antishield) or bardiche (better cut, cheaper but no horse rearing and slow).
 

[Swaggart]

Not sure if it was in this thread or not, but this is basically helping the point I made of skill not being determined by your ability to feint or block. I spend my time as a spearman on NH and predicting my clanmates is a mission and a half. Especially Turboflex. I've been playing with him for almost a year and still can't understand his movements. (Hint: I hit him more than the enemy to this day)

Wait, what?

Say you have two teams. One team is great at sticking together but can't attack or defend well (feinting and blocking, which is basically individual skill). The other team is also great at sticking together, yet they can block and attack really well. Who will win? The team with the better individual skill. Teamplay is not the be all end all of this game, not by a longshot, it is an excellent supplement but does not replace individual skill.

Team play is essential in battle, yes, but individual skill is far more essential. The Hoplite clan was really good at working together, but their individual skill was not at the same level of the more established clans, and the results showed. In many cases they had numbers but were whittled down.

[Zanze]

The Hoplite clan was really good at working together.

Hilarious. By this you mean they formed a shield wall, then when the fighting start they broke off to do their own thing?

Anyways, what I mean and by saying that is that just because you can feint and block doesn't make you skilled in this game. Anyone can do it, and most people do. But then there comes the idiots that can feint and block well, but charge solo against the whole team and die then post threads saying they should nerf everything that isn't what they are using that particular generation.

However, your example is kind of one sided. Thats like saying Team A made great guns but no bullets, and Team B made great bullets but no guns. Now in your example, team A has only the guns but B has both. Hardly fair. But keep them separate, Team A would beat B because they have big rifles that can now be used as clubs. (A = teamwork, B = individual skill)

Now that I'm done talking crap, yes you need both. But again I say, because you personally know how to feint and block and fight as an individual you will still lose versus a coordinated effort from other people.

[Pejlaen]

However, your example is kind of one sided. Thats like saying Team A made great guns but no bullets, and Team B made great bullets but no guns. Now in your example, team A has only the guns but B has both. Hardly fair. But keep them separate, Team A would beat B because they have big rifles that can now be used as clubs. (A = teamwork, B = individual skill)

Team B can throw bullets at them though

[peter_afca7]

today it is pikes tomorrow it is ranged day after cav it will never stop QQ