I'd be okay removing couch from my heavy lance if I get the old lance angle back :twisted: I don't think that's a trade most infantry will actually want to see, even though they may think it.
The only thing that would piss me off and when I mainly use couching of the lance, is when there's only a couple infantry left, and there's no way to sneak up on them, they can just down block endlessly.
Probably a shift towards more str in cav or to the normal Lance, that has more damage output
Bottom line: i cant for sure say that this would be an improvement, but i think its worth a discussion.
Not too sure about this, though. Is heavy lance > lance with the old angle? I am a strength cav and I feel strong enough already. The reg lance might become a bit too strong if it doesn't have much of a disadvantage against the heavy lance.
Please change the amount of lances that can couch, it makes no sense that you can couch with heavy lance. There are 2 lances that are specifically for couch lancing, make them exclusively couchable.
Hm ja. As stated in my post, i myself havent quite made my mind up and i want your opinions and a civil discussion. As a cav, i so badly want more room for various different approaches, but i dont at all want to fuck up balance. I thought removing the couch would Do the trick.
Btw: Do take into account, that the heavy lance and all horses have been nerfed since back then, that there are more anti cav infs on the field and battle awareness has greatly risen.
I Do think that the old angle would not have overall the great impact on cav vs inf you fear, lots of kills are done by couching these days.
Give old lance angle back, nerf maneuver 20%, buff horse hp 20%.Nerfing maneuverability on anything 'cept maybe loomed arabians would be insane, would make HAs even weaker compared to normal archers.
Torben dont expect inf lobby to understand this point of view, sure it would decrease number of cav going for inf and maybe number of cav in general but than again old lance angle would put all the 1h cav, HA, HX, HT in the world of shit ;p Would be so much easier to deal with them for us that i dont know if it would be fair.
Btw: Do take into account...that there are more anti cav infs on the field and battle awareness has greatly risen.
Yes, I could see how giving lancer cav the ability to kill anyone without a 200+ length weapon would decrease the number of cav going for infantry. As it stands right now, most cav will not engage an aware player with a greatsword unless they have to. With the old lance radius, you were dead unless you blocked down.
Arslan: great point, specially about 1h cav. I absolutly didnt consider their trouble with the old lance angle : /
Oprah: didnt think about pocket pikes, but never the less i could ride freely amongst the enemy back then, despite op archers, pocket pikes and what not. Ask gnjus, he kept on telling his team to get their head s out of their asses, but nobody would. People are more aware these days.
The fact that community got more awareness is probably true. Still not justifying making horses an infantrymen nightmares again. Now with the constant overflow of horsebaloonie its somewhat hard to pay attention to horses, dodge arrows and try to do some fighting with enemy inf before you get lanced/shot/thrown upon.
Tbh, on some maps and some playerbase on server its hard as hell to try to pay attention to everything. Old angles would just create even more shit you need to watch for, as now even horse that passed by is dangerous...
well, I value your opinion. I never had problems with the old lance angle, i took it just like i had to take HA being out of reach for me as inf.
hopefully the horse overhaul that chadz mentioned will actually help solve this dilemma.
Well, giving lancers an old angle and taking couch would be a huge buff against inf actually :rolleyes:while its true that there would be a little buff to the cav vs inf engagements, the number of such engagements would decrease a lot
There were less cav vs inf fights before (up to the old ages) because:A lancer was an ultimate anti cav class, a good lancer could eliminate whole enemy cav on his own, so quality was better than quantity, now its the other way. Put two any half decent lancers behind Torben/Oberyn/Kerrigan/Huey (maybe not huey he kills all ;)), all of them having the same horses. No matter how good you are you can only run or you will get killed/dehorsed. Other classes can deal with multiple enemies if the players is skilled enough, not lancers anymore.
1) There were less horsemen in overall = easier to kill horsemen.there were less horsemen because they all did cav clash in the begging, which usually ended with most of them dead
Now: sometimes it happens that up to 40% of the players are horsemen and being inf means that you'll have to fight the horde of enemy and friendly horsemen. IMPOSSIBRU
2) Archers had a better projectile speed = easier to kill horsemenits still very easy to shot horse with bow/xbow/throwing things, more difficult ? how so? horses are also slower, less maneuverable compared with the old ones (easier to hit)
Now: archers are still effective against horsemen but it's way more difficult to shoot at horses.
3) Loomed horses had less HP = easier to kill horsemenloomed and not loomed horses WERE NERFED several times (if i remember correctly champ Arabian lost 8 maneuver in total and 4 or 6 speed), maneuver made them much better when it came to surviving not -+5/10/15/whatever hp...
Now: Loomed and not loomed horses were rebalanced so it became harder to kill horses. Plus there are way more loomed horses these days.
4) Players had less riding = easier to kill horsemenyou forgot to mention that max riding skill back than wasnt 7 for arabian, it was 3 or 4 and you could use all the horses. INFANTRY whined that cav builds need too few points and are too similiar to inf builds hence the change
Now: There were times when riding was 6 agility per 1 point (ages ago), now it's 3 and it gives ability to have a lot of riding even in high strength builds on high lvls
5) 2handed lolstab outranged everything and had more damage = easier to kill horsemenlolstab didnt outranged sidelancing hence the infantry whine and the change (i think this was the biggest issue as a good lancer could kill good aware 2hander in 1vs1, well not anymore)
Now: It's nerfed now, though still can be a cav nemesis in hands of good twohander
6) All polearms could rear horses = easier to kill horsemennot sure which polearms lost the ability to rear horses (axes?), but most of the spear like polearms have it no ?
Now: They removed it from a lot of polearms
7) Horse Archers were more powerful and they started from killing other cav = easier to kill horsemennow your talking about the wpf stacking, after they removed it HA were pretty much as they are now
Now: Horse archers are rather annoying than effective, though they still can kill cav.
8) Throwers were a pain of cavalry (especially 1million of throwing lances in pocket) = easier to kill horsemennow your talking about the time when throwers were buffed over the roof and everybody went thrower (as did i), yeah it wasnt fun to be a cav during that time but it was a balance failure which they changed later on, would you really want to go back to the throwers era ?
Now: not that many throwers as before (and everyone's happy with that) and the amount of throwing weapons got nerfed drastically
9) Crossbows had better accuracy and reloading speed plus air friction had a smaller value = easier to kill horsemenCant say much about xbows, only that they were always hard to take out if people hold with fire to the last second like you do. Currently getting dehorsed by a single bolt from full hp on a champ destrier is nothing uncommon (cant say if its only arbalest or lower tier xbows also)
Now: only extremely high WPF crossbowmen can snipe and it's still difficult to calculate the trajectory on high ranges and it deals less damage.
10) There were a few maps with open plainsAll maps were about one team defending the village, and the other attacking the village. Basicly the cav/ranged on the defending side had a easy kills and the attacking side took the punishment and hoped to be on the defending side on the next map. Campers paradise, Dave ? you like ?
Now: at least 60% of the maps are so open that it makes cav an easy class, almost no town maps left.
11) Dead horses didn't have hitboxes so dehorsed horseman was a good target = easier to kill horsemenBefore it was possible to make a couch train, two or more cav going in line with couch. Now the dead body of the first one will soak all the couches saving the inf guys behind dead body. Happens A LOT. Soaking damage works both ways.
Now: dead horse has a hitbox for some certain time and it's bugged so I can't shoot/hit a horseman sometimes when he's on the ground even if I see no horse over hiM
blabla
whatever is being said here, one fact is:
everyone who is against this suggestion wants lancing to be less about skill and more about easy one shot backstabbing.
(and in return making it easier to counter skilled lancers ofc)
supplementary suggestion: any damage and kill done by thrust lances when mounted is not registered by the point system.
no more valor for lancers, no more score epeen crap, less lancers.
ps: there is a counter argument to almost any point made, dont matter from which side. dont forget to not rage : )
Score will be used to calculate exp and gold in future
What Chagan_Arslan is saying is just a pure bullshit of the player who doesn't understand how battles are played on EU1, he is only keen on making his class better to get even easier kills. And there were less horsemen not because they were engaging fights against each other. As I've told before - there're at least a half of horsemen who will keep avoiding cav fights to achieve more infantry kills. And you can do NOTHING with that.
whatever is being said here, one fact is:
everyone who is against this suggestion wants lancing to be less about skill and more about easy one shot backstabbing.
Dave ill give you a situation from battle that happened lately, fought against 5 heavy cav like warhorses etc. killed first of them and as they were close to each other they were just behind me, so for the next 30 or more seconds i was trying to get an angle to attack another guy but with 4 of them on my tail they did get the angles every now and than and so my horse healt went steadily down till i got dehorsed and killed. Now with old angle i could respond to those attacks by killing them not just block and avoid, so tell me would it be to the benefit of the infantry if they had to fight 1 cav or 4 cav ? Because guess who they went after they killed me...
You guys just completly miss the point i make, you can only think in terms of 1vs1 im talking big picture here... and lets get it clear i dont want old lance angle anymore, im fine as it is now, just saying how big of an impact it had on the battle
I told myself not to post in such threads anymore but its stronger than me, especially when i see posts like yours Dave. If i lied in any of the points please do correct me. I think its fair to say that you have more knowledge about xbow gameplay and me about cav gameplay or do you pay attention to every aspect of the battle while sniping peoples ?
P.S. Thomek ;] pm me when you will be going on rampage on that arabian ok ? would love to see it first person whats the name of the alt ?
P.S.2 Smooth check the pm
(click to show/hide)
Lancers will of course be able to circle back and pick up their lance after dropping it, but this takes then out of the round for a while and can be a risky thing to try.Depends, but often I can pick up a throwing lance I've throw right bellow me without stopping, it'll just take some timing and people can easily pick up dropped lances while riding fullspeed.
I also forgot to state that bump damage was significantly lower old days. You couldn't damage a tincan unless you were using a plated charger.
Anyway you win Dave ok ? i dont know shit, lets leave it at here
The shield forcefield problem goes for inf too. Its plain shit that a cav shield protects almost the complete horse and you can't do anything against it.But with current over accurate archers and xbowers it will be too easy to bypass even medium shields on infantry from very long distance. I don't care about buckler users they should be shooted as without shield and take damage to wrists when trying to block something with more than 3 weight.
Anyway you win Dave ok ? i dont know shit, lets leave it at here
I've noticed a thing lately: when i dehorse a guy, i try to hit him when he can't defend himself, but even if i hear the cut sound, the horseman doesn't get hitted, or it does, but he doesn't show it. Why?
I've noticed a thing lately: when i dehorse a guy, i try to hit him when he can't defend himself, but even if i hear the cut sound, the horseman doesn't get hitted, or it does, but he doesn't show it. Why?
i dont know shit
In addition, I support horses taking bump damage as well as the inf they hit because this is probably the most obvious cav vs inf nerf there is.This.
You hit the dead horse instead of the rider
Ive been killed on the ground three four times this evening, you can defo hit people once they are dehorsed.
Ive been killed on the ground three four times this evening, you can defo hit people once they are dehorsed.
How about...
CHAMBERCOUCH?
The bastard brother of chamberkick is already coded and waiting for action in the retarded stuff shelf. As a footman, do an overswing while facing the approaching coucher in the right moment. If timed correctly it will negate the lance damage while allowing to land a hit on the rider/horse with the overswing.
How about...
CHAMBERCOUCH?
The bastard brother of chamberkick is already coded and waiting for action in the retarded stuff shelf. As a footman, do an overswing while facing the approaching coucher in the right moment. If timed correctly it will negate the lance damage while allowing to land a hit on the rider/horse with the overswing.
Alright.. but with the turn rate nerf, will u be able to actually hit the horse before he has passed?
Yes, because the timing is different and completely independed from a normal chamberblock. Actually I could make the window as big as I like, even as much as covering the whole swing animation.
will lancers at some point get a tool that gives them the ability to fight aware opponents?ofc not, you're meant to be silent spawnraping bitches.
will lancers at some point get a tool that gives them the ability to fight aware opponents?
You already do. Its called dismounting and manning up.
How about bump stabbing? You don't even need speed to break the block, just touching the damn beast makes people stagger.Bump stabbing is fine.
Remove couching from all thrustable lances.
I honestly think it would be cool to see more great lance cavalry charges, and that would happen if you removed couching from the heavy lance. I would be unhappy about it, but I would be fine at the end of the day......but "Standard response to nerf request (feel free to re-use): C-rpg will not be nerfing or buffing because you refuse to use teamwork or tactics. Have a good day sir"...
...but "Standard response to nerf request (feel free to re-use): C-rpg will not be nerfing or buffing because you refuse to use teamwork or tactics. Have a good day sir"...