[balance] buff cav vs cav while nerfbuffing buffnerfingly cav vs inf

[Vkvkvk]

Give old lance angle back because I want to be instantly killed by cavalry holding their lances fully perpendicular to their horses 24/7 and cutting heads off with their chainsaw hafts.

[Piok]

Actually lance angle nerf was one of the best achievement of this mod (unlike turn rate nerf) so why reverting back. Remove protective forcefield from shields covering 2/3 of horse instead.
Buff speed of heavy lance and lance to nerf cav

[oprah_winfrey]

If there was a way to give the old lance angle back for cav vs cav only, I would like that. But the old lance angle is way to op agaisnt infantry.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Give old lance angle back, nerf maneuver 20%, buff horse hp 20%.

Nerfing maneuverability on anything 'cept maybe loomed arabians would be insane, would make HAs even weaker compared to normal archers.
Old lance angle and then make cav loud as shit!

[Chagan_Arslan]

Torben dont expect inf lobby to understand this point of view, sure it would decrease number of cav going for inf and maybe number of cav in general but than again old lance angle would put all the 1h cav, HA, HX, HT in the world of shit ;p Would be so much easier to deal with them for us that i dont know if it would be fair.

[oprah_winfrey]

Torben dont expect inf lobby to understand this point of view, sure it would decrease number of cav going for inf and maybe number of cav in general but than again old lance angle would put all the 1h cav, HA, HX, HT in the world of shit ;p Would be so much easier to deal with them for us that i dont know if it would be fair.

Yes, I could see how giving lancer cav the ability to kill anyone without a 200+ length weapon would decrease the number of cav going for infantry. As it stands right now, most cav will not engage an aware player with a greatsword unless they have to. With the old lance radius, you were dead unless you blocked down.

Btw: Do take into account...that there are more anti cav infs on the field and battle awareness has  greatly risen.

I don't have the exact stats, but I would imagine that the opposite is true. You may see more players with pikes now, but that is because people had their pikes in their back pockets until the cav came by.
 

[Chagan_Arslan]

Yes, I could see how giving lancer cav the ability to kill anyone without a 200+ length weapon would decrease the number of cav going for infantry. As it stands right now, most cav will not engage an aware player with a greatsword unless they have to. With the old lance radius, you were dead unless you blocked down.

Well obviously you dont. Ok im gonna repeat it one last time, but i dont think you can comperhand what i say.
Old lance angle created more cav vs cav, because it was easier to keep your horse alive when fighting other cav (side lancing). Most lancers of that time were killing other cav which means less cav vs inf engagements. I myself was fighting only enemy cav, i had this thing in my head that you have to earn your right to ride, thats why i was focusing on the enemy cav first and foremost. There where many other lancers like that i think. Having a quick duel with other good lancer on the opposite side wasnt something uncommon. Cav back than went after infantry when there was nothing left to do (enemy cav dead).

So yeah from my perspective, old lance angle would decrease number of cav vs inf fights, as one good lancer could kill multiple other cav because of his (how dare i use this word) skill. Now its pretty imposible to go alone vs 5 other cav and win, as after kill 1-2 you will probably have the rest on your back with no way of defence other then running away or waiting for team to help.

P.S. it was much more fun and rewarding killing other cav compared to killing oblivious infantry heroes (people tend to go where the fun is, just so you know).
P.S2. i engage greatswords users with no problem, its pretty easy

[Darkoveride]

old lance angle , means ill need to go back to dehorsing all cav.

[Torben]

Arslan: great point, specially about 1h cav. I absolutly didnt consider their trouble with the old lance angle : /

Oprah: didnt think about pocket pikes, but never the less i could ride freely amongst the enemy back then, despite op archers, pocket pikes and what not. Ask gnjus, he kept on telling his team to get their head s out of their asses, but nobody would. People are more aware these days.

[Cepeshi]

Arslan: great point, specially about 1h cav. I absolutly didnt consider their trouble with the old lance angle : /

Oprah: didnt think about pocket pikes, but never the less i could ride freely amongst the enemy back then, despite op archers, pocket pikes and what not. Ask gnjus, he kept on telling his team to get their head s out of their asses, but nobody would. People are more aware these days.

The fact that community got more awareness is probably true. Still not justifying making horses an infantrymen nightmares again. Now with the constant overflow of horsebaloonie its somewhat hard to pay attention to horses, dodge arrows and try to do some fighting with enemy inf before you get lanced/shot/thrown upon.

Tbh, on some maps and some playerbase on server its hard as hell to try to pay attention to everything. Old angles would just create even more shit you need to watch for, as now even horse that passed by is dangerous...

[Torben]

The fact that community got more awareness is probably true. Still not justifying making horses an infantrymen nightmares again. Now with the constant overflow of horsebaloonie its somewhat hard to pay attention to horses, dodge arrows and try to do some fighting with enemy inf before you get lanced/shot/thrown upon.

Tbh, on some maps and some playerbase on server its hard as hell to try to pay attention to everything. Old angles would just create even more shit you need to watch for, as now even horse that passed by is dangerous...

well,  I value your opinion.  I never had problems with the old lance angle,  i took it just like i had to take HA being out of reach for me as inf.

hopefully the horse overhaul that chadz mentioned will actually help solve this dilemma.

[DaveUKR]

Well, giving lancers an old angle and taking couch would be a huge buff against inf actually 

There were less cav vs inf fights before (up to the old ages) because:

1) There were less horsemen in overall = easier to kill horsemen.
Now: sometimes it happens that up to 40% of the players are horsemen and being inf means that you'll have to fight the horde of enemy and friendly horsemen. IMPOSSIBRU
2) Archers had a better projectile speed = easier to kill horsemen
Now: archers are still effective against horsemen but it's way more difficult to shoot at horses.
3) Loomed horses had less HP = easier to kill horsemen
Now: Loomed and not loomed horses were rebalanced so it became harder to kill horses. Plus there are way more loomed horses these days.
4) Players had less riding = easier to kill horsemen
Now: There were times when riding was 6 agility per 1 point (ages ago), now it's 3 and it gives ability to have a lot of riding even in high strength builds on high lvls
5) 2handed lolstab outranged everything and had more damage = easier to kill horsemen
Now: It's nerfed now, though still can be a cav nemesis in hands of good twohander
6) All polearms could rear horses = easier to kill horsemen
Now: They removed it from a lot of polearms
7) Horse Archers were more powerful and they started from killing other cav = easier to kill horsemen
Now: Horse archers are rather annoying than effective, though they still can kill cav.
8) Throwers were a pain of cavalry (especially 1million of throwing lances in pocket) = easier to kill horsemen
Now: not that many throwers as before (and everyone's happy with that) and the amount of throwing weapons got nerfed drastically
9) Crossbows had better accuracy and reloading speed plus air friction had a smaller value = easier to kill horsemen
Now: only extremely high WPF crossbowmen can snipe and it's still difficult to calculate the trajectory on high ranges and it deals less damage.
10) There were a few maps with open plains
Now: at least 60% of the maps are so open that it makes cav an easy class, almost no town maps left.
11) Dead horses didn't have hitboxes so dehorsed horseman was a good target = easier to kill horsemen
Now: dead horse has a hitbox for some certain time and it's bugged so I can't shoot/hit a horseman sometimes when he's on the ground even if I see no horse over him

Giving old lance angle back you'll make it so that they won't even need this couch because they'll be busy killing everything. Some honourable horsemen will try to kill each other but at least 50% will use it against infantry, I bet. Like cmp said ages ago: Give cav 300 length lance and they will use it to backstab.
Cavalry has no risks to go into the difficult places (like ruins or whatever) because they don't take damage for bumping players/objects/walls, they don't take damage for falling down from a horse and they have a temporary defence while they're on the ground (lying inside of the wall or being covered by the corpse of the horse) so you can just take your melee weapon, whistle for a horse and proceed with your job. With this old lance they'll have an advantage even in town maps so you'll gimp inf even more 

[Cepeshi]

well,  I value your opinion.  I never had problems with the old lance angle,  i took it just like i had to take HA being out of reach for me as inf.

hopefully the horse overhaul that chadz mentioned will actually help solve this dilemma.

The horses are not a big deal, if there is not like half enemy team being cav. (which happens on EU1 quite a lot) But, i preffer dealing with lots of somewhat useless cav than to have to deal with less, but very, very dangerous ones (i do suck in melee vs melee, so i need to have something to make me happy  )

Also, very nice summary Dave

[Chagan_Arslan]

Well, giving lancers an old angle and taking couch would be a huge buff against inf actually 

while its true that there would be a little buff to the cav vs inf engagements, the number of such engagements would decrease a lot

There were less cav vs inf fights before (up to the old ages) because:

A lancer was an ultimate anti cav class, a good lancer could eliminate whole enemy cav on his own, so quality was better than quantity, now its the other way. Put two any half decent lancers behind Torben/Oberyn/Kerrigan/Huey (maybe not huey he kills all ;)), all of them having the same horses. No matter how good you are you can only run or you will get killed/dehorsed. Other classes can deal with multiple enemies if the players is skilled enough, not lancers anymore.

1) There were less horsemen in overall = easier to kill horsemen.
Now: sometimes it happens that up to 40% of the players are horsemen and being inf means that you'll have to fight the horde of enemy and friendly horsemen. IMPOSSIBRU

there were less horsemen because they all did cav clash in the begging, which usually ended with most of them dead

2) Archers had a better projectile speed = easier to kill horsemen
Now: archers are still effective against horsemen but it's way more difficult to shoot at horses.

its still very easy to shot horse with bow/xbow/throwing things, more difficult ? how so? horses are also slower, less maneuverable compared with the old ones (easier to hit)
dont make stuff up

3) Loomed horses had less HP = easier to kill horsemen
Now: Loomed and not loomed horses were rebalanced so it became harder to kill horses. Plus there are way more loomed horses these days.

loomed and not loomed horses WERE NERFED several times (if i remember correctly champ Arabian lost 8 maneuver in total and 4 or 6 speed), maneuver made them much better when it came to surviving not -+5/10/15/whatever hp...
dont make stuff up

4) Players had less riding = easier to kill horsemen
Now: There were times when riding was 6 agility per 1 point (ages ago), now it's 3 and it gives ability to have a lot of riding even in high strength builds on high lvls

you forgot to mention that max riding skill back than wasnt 7 for arabian, it was 3 or 4 and you could use all the horses. INFANTRY whined that cav builds need too few points and are too similiar to inf builds hence the change
dont make stuff up

5) 2handed lolstab outranged everything and had more damage = easier to kill horsemen
Now: It's nerfed now, though still can be a cav nemesis in hands of good twohander

lolstab didnt outranged sidelancing hence the infantry whine and the change (i think this was the biggest issue as a good lancer could kill good aware 2hander in 1vs1, well not anymore)
dont make stuff up

6) All polearms could rear horses = easier to kill horsemen
Now: They removed it from a lot of polearms

not sure which polearms lost the ability to rear horses (axes?), but most of the spear like polearms have it no ?

7) Horse Archers were more powerful and they started from killing other cav = easier to kill horsemen
Now: Horse archers are rather annoying than effective, though they still can kill cav.

now your talking about the wpf stacking, after they removed it HA were pretty much as they are now

8) Throwers were a pain of cavalry (especially 1million of throwing lances in pocket) = easier to kill horsemen
Now: not that many throwers as before (and everyone's happy with that) and the amount of throwing weapons got nerfed drastically

now your talking about the time when throwers were buffed over the roof and everybody went thrower (as did i), yeah it wasnt fun to be a cav during that time but it was a balance failure which they changed later on, would you really want to go back to the throwers era ?

9) Crossbows had better accuracy and reloading speed plus air friction had a smaller value = easier to kill horsemen
Now: only extremely high WPF crossbowmen can snipe and it's still difficult to calculate the trajectory on high ranges and it deals less damage.

Cant say much about xbows, only that they were always hard to take out if people hold with fire to the last second like you do. Currently getting dehorsed by a single bolt from full hp on a champ destrier is nothing uncommon (cant say if its only arbalest or lower tier xbows also)

10) There were a few maps with open plains
Now: at least 60% of the maps are so open that it makes cav an easy class, almost no town maps left.

All maps were about one team defending the village, and the other attacking the village. Basicly the cav/ranged on the defending side had a easy kills and the attacking side took the punishment and hoped to be on the defending side on the next map. Campers paradise, Dave ? you like ?

11) Dead horses didn't have hitboxes so dehorsed horseman was a good target = easier to kill horsemen
Now: dead horse has a hitbox for some certain time and it's bugged so I can't shoot/hit a horseman sometimes when he's on the ground even if I see no horse over hiM

Before it was possible to make a couch train, two or more cav going in line with couch. Now the dead body of the first one will soak all the couches saving the inf guys behind dead body. Happens A LOT. Soaking damage works both ways.

Dave what cpm said is not true, unless you think just because he is dev he knows everything for certain... hell we already had 300 range weapon (~360 i think, the lance of compentation) and it wasnt dominating the lancer builds for some reason i wonder why?
The change to the lance angle was i think the biggest shift in the balance that in the end turn against inf for the reasons stated earlier.

now ill tell you what happens, all the infantry lobby will -1 this post for the sole reason that im GK and i post in a thread about cav, your post already got stamp of approval from one of the biggest lobbiests in these forum

[Casimir]

I am 2h cav, and i support this message.  Make Cav v Cav moar fun and Cav v Inf moar risky.