[balance] buff cav vs cav while nerfbuffing buffnerfingly cav vs inf

[Thomek]

blabla

Cav has always been OP, it's just that now c-RPG has hardened and are more difficult because of better/more experienced players. (The ones that are left as playerbase decrease.)

So as the game becomes more hardcore, people flock for easier kills that they can get on a horse or with a bow/xbow. Trying to compete with the 2h heroes is impossible for many, especially with so many cav and archers around too.. and so the vicious circle begins.

I'm borrowing a plus 3 arabian and lance atm.. my lvl23 alt was racking up 1:1 from first moment. And I have very little experience as a cav player.. I feel so dirty!

[Torben]

whatever is being said here,  one fact is:

everyone who is against this suggestion wants lancing to be less about skill and more about easy one shot backstabbing.

(and in return making it easier to counter skilled lancers ofc)

supplementary suggestion:  any damage and kill done by thrust lances when mounted is not registered by the point system. 
no more valor for lancers,  no more score epeen crap,  less lancers.



ps:  there is a counter argument to almost any point made,  dont matter from which side.  dont forget to not rage : )

[DaveUKR]

whatever is being said here,  one fact is:

everyone who is against this suggestion wants lancing to be less about skill and more about easy one shot backstabbing.

(and in return making it easier to counter skilled lancers ofc)

supplementary suggestion:  any damage and kill done by thrust lances when mounted is not registered by the point system. 
no more valor for lancers,  no more score epeen crap,  less lancers.



ps:  there is a counter argument to almost any point made,  dont matter from which side.  dont forget to not rage : )

Score will be used to calculate exp and gold in future. So yes, there will be "less lancers" .

To be serious. Guys, I don't understand. You're trying to suggest something which will make cavalry ultra OP. It's already easy as hell, I've already played with my alt without loomed horse/lance and it was easy to get at least 5 kills each round (i'm not good horseman, made lots of teamhits though).

What Chagan_Arslan is saying is just a pure bullshit of the player who doesn't understand how battles are played on EU1, he is only keen on making his class better to get even easier kills. And there were less horsemen not because they were engaging fights against each other. As I've told before - there're at least a half of horsemen who will keep avoiding cav fights to achieve more infantry kills. And you can do NOTHING with that.

This thread should be close with the big NO. Wait for the cavalry rework and suggest again. Now it's impossible since it's not a little buff, but a huge buff to horsemen while they are the last class to deserve it.

[Smoothrich]

Just reduce lance damage.  Seriously 1/4 reduction in damage on couches and thrusts, no fancy bullshit.  That will make it easier for infantry.

A more encompassing nerf would be to remove the ease of hybridization between melee and cav builds, so people would have to sacrifice more to ride their +3 courser with heavy lance around in heavy armor before being dismounted and spamming their polearm for easy kills.

Lastly, the old lancing angle was retarded, and made you more invincible to non 200+ reach attacks than cav already are.  Saying that removed skill from cav is like saying that removing 360 jump spin stabs with 300 reach weapons removed skill from the game.  Of course some will agree with that no matter what, but to me it just looks like making the game a little more methodical and less about animation abuse like some ADD sugar high twitch gaming "bullet hell" japanese game.

Also if you are a better cav player you will still beat people in cavalry engagements no problem, not by SPIN STOP 180 STRAFE SWIVEL SHIFT TRICK LANCE THRUST while breaking your spine in the process, but by cutting them off, juking their timing, things that don't involve waggling your mouse to extreme angles.

Lastly, don't kid ourselves.  Cav go for easy unaware infantry under any conditions, just because its easiest.  And most importantly, I think it is insane to propose that buffing lancers is an effective way to make infantry stronger to them.  Its doing the opposite. 

[Nightingale]

Score will be used to calculate exp and gold in future

Looks like I wont be making any gold or exp as a Pure Arbalest build... headshots from across the map give me like what... 1 point? kills give me 2 or 3... not sure

During strat sieges I am always on the bottom of the score board.... with like 200 points and 30+ kills with less than 5 deaths most of the time... guess I better stop retiring xP because EXP is gonna be slow for me.

[Chagan_Arslan]

What Chagan_Arslan is saying is just a pure bullshit of the player who doesn't understand how battles are played on EU1, he is only keen on making his class better to get even easier kills. And there were less horsemen not because they were engaging fights against each other. As I've told before - there're at least a half of horsemen who will keep avoiding cav fights to achieve more infantry kills. And you can do NOTHING with that.

Dave ill give you a situation from battle that happened lately, fought against 5 heavy cav like warhorses etc. killed first of them and as they were close to each other they were just behind me, so for the next 30 or more seconds i was trying to get an angle to attack another guy but with 4 of them on my tail they did get the angles every now and than and so my horse healt went steadily down till i got dehorsed and killed. Now with old angle i could respond to those attacks by killing them not just block and avoid, so tell me would it be to the benefit of the infantry if they had to fight 1 cav or 4 cav ? Because guess who they went after they killed me...

You guys just completly miss the point i make, you can only think in terms of 1vs1 im talking big picture here... and lets get it clear i dont want old lance angle anymore, im fine as it is now, just saying how big of an impact it had on the battle

I told myself not to post in such threads anymore but its stronger than me, especially when i see posts like yours Dave. If i lied in any of the points please do correct me. I think its fair to say that you have more knowledge about xbow gameplay and me about cav gameplay or do you pay attention to every aspect of the battle while sniping peoples ?

P.S. Thomek ;] pm me when you will be going on rampage on that arabian ok ? would love to see it first person whats the name of the alt ?
P.S.2 Smooth check the pm

[Piok]

Yes it was sooo.. fun with old lance angle but only for lancers. Why not restore polestagger or old lolstab when you could be killed 2 sec after animation. Restore it back and mod could be call pike and shoot.
If you want to nerf lance damage just buff speed of it. Heavy lance is not strongest but deal most massive dam

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

Other than Arabian I'm not too bothered by Cav turning. My biggest issue is the rediculous damage that lances put out when you're riding slowly. Reduce general lance damage but increase the damage you get from speed boost. Lancers are supposed to be in and out, not fighting from close range horseback.

Oh and sort that fucking shield forcefield. Less important to me though.

[dodnet]

whatever is being said here,  one fact is:

everyone who is against this suggestion wants lancing to be less about skill and more about easy one shot backstabbing.

Sorry, but saying that is plain stupid.

I said no and I want to nerf cav by removing couching on normal lances. But giving them back the old angle is a huge buff to cav. Current lancing angle is also much more realistic.

[DaveUKR]

Dave ill give you a situation from battle that happened lately, fought against 5 heavy cav like warhorses etc. killed first of them and as they were close to each other they were just behind me, so for the next 30 or more seconds i was trying to get an angle to attack another guy but with 4 of them on my tail they did get the angles every now and than and so my horse healt went steadily down till i got dehorsed and killed. Now with old angle i could respond to those attacks by killing them not just block and avoid, so tell me would it be to the benefit of the infantry if they had to fight 1 cav or 4 cav ? Because guess who they went after they killed me...

You guys just completly miss the point i make, you can only think in terms of 1vs1 im talking big picture here... and lets get it clear i dont want old lance angle anymore, im fine as it is now, just saying how big of an impact it had on the battle

I told myself not to post in such threads anymore but its stronger than me, especially when i see posts like yours Dave. If i lied in any of the points please do correct me. I think its fair to say that you have more knowledge about xbow gameplay and me about cav gameplay or do you pay attention to every aspect of the battle while sniping peoples ?

P.S. Thomek ;] pm me when you will be going on rampage on that arabian ok ? would love to see it first person whats the name of the alt ?
P.S.2 Smooth check the pm

I would not pick the word "lie" to your minor mistakes. Dude, just reread what you're talking about. And about polearms - like 15 polearms lost the ability to rear horses (even shortened spear can't rear horses IIRC) and all the other stuff I've said is correct.

Simplify your situation. You're using simple horse (destrier for 23k i.e.) and you're asking for ability to kill 5 33k+ horses and horsemen ALONE. Lets pick the other situation: your team has 5 great horsemen (yeah, balance is a bitch). You get the old lance angle and you kill all the enemy horsemen ALONE. What will other 4 cav from your team do? Just watch how cool you are? No, they will start onehit raping with these ridiculous lance angles. That's it.

I also forgot to state that bump damage was significantly lower old days. You couldn't damage a tincan unless you were using a plated charger.

What you're asking is the same as I would ask 10 times faster reloading speed for crossbows. Now I can headshot only one crossbowman each 10 seconds but can you believe how many crossbowmen would I headshot alone if I had 1second shots? Yeah, there would be no crossbowmen at all with such reloading speed because they would kill each other...

[dodnet]

I hate it, but I have to agree with Dave 

[Torben]

(click to show/hide)

Sorry, but saying that is plain stupid.

I said no and I want to nerf cav by removing couching on normal lances. But giving them back the old angle is a huge buff to cav. Current lancing angle is also much more realistic.

dont start with realism in a post where you want couching removed ^^


saying things blatantly or a bit provocative does sometimes help to clarify a point.  the lancer vs cav fight is highly dumbed down by this lance angle, so it is less about skill.  and it makes attack approaches more linear and therefor fosters backstabbing.  there is nothing stupid about that post, i only said it in a very simple way.

however:  the old lance angle made it very hard for 1h & 2h cav,  i did forget about that in my very first post.
so ill just be waiting on the horse overhaul and hope for better things to come.

chagan:  you gotta get an arabian or courser if you wanna get out of those situations : /

[Torben]

btw, I am understanding the inf and ranged pov on this matter.  hopefully you understood a bit our motivation as well.
I thought my suggestion a good idea at one point, but dont think so anymore. I do not support the couch removal on its own though, it would dumb down lancing even more.

at this point,  I will retire from this thread

[Cup1d]

make couch working just on horsemans only. Just for luls, also as good buff for cav vs cav.

[Tomas]

I'd like to see the following

1)  Give the lance its angle back but make the angle based on wpf.  Less than 100 wpf = current lance angle.  More than 150 wpf = old lance angle with a gradual change in between.

2)  Add chance to drop Lance based on damage dealt.

3)  Make all polearms un-swingable from horseback.  An unfortunate but necessary part of the balance.


This will mean lancers have to think before going for the easy couches or head on lancing as it will most likely cost them their main weapon. This leaves lancers 3 options.

Option 1:  Max Polearm wpf to get the largest lance angle but never couch and generally be more careful of how you lance to keep your lance as long as possible.
Option 2:  Max Polearm wpf to get the largest lance angle, go for couching/easy kills and accept that after a while you will have to switch to a gimped polearm from horseback (or you can dismount)
Option 3:  Put wpf into 1H or 2H as well as Polearm.  You get a more limited lance angle but are free to go for any kill you want knowing you have a strong back up weapon.

I expect good players will go for options 1 and 3.

This is also a buff to the faster light horses than can catch the heavier horses from behind and lance their riders in the backs for lower but safe damage.  Same for the lighter maneuverable horses than can turn and side lance an enemy horse again for lower but safer damage.

Lancers will of course be able to circle back and pick up their lance after dropping it, but this takes then out of the round for a while and can be a risky thing to try.

In addition, I support horses taking bump damage as well as the inf they hit because this is probably the most obvious cav vs inf nerf there is.