cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Bonze on August 19, 2012, 02:30:47 pm

Title: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Bonze on August 19, 2012, 02:30:47 pm
The new valour system is bloody boring.Its a endless gold raining system for people with the most looms  and playtime (damage ! + level).

Who benefits from new system?
24/7 , people with no job ...

Remove it or give us 1 day without looms per Week,
like the Melee only day long time ago ...
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: BlackMilk on August 19, 2012, 02:31:54 pm
worst suggestion of all time
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 19, 2012, 02:32:44 pm
worst suggestion of all time
~100% loomed my old friend.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Bonze on August 19, 2012, 02:36:39 pm
~100% loomed my old friend.

 :mrgreen:

worst suggestion of all time

http://jobboerse.arbeitsagentur.de/vamJB/startseite.html?kgr=as&aa=1&m=1&vorschlagsfunktionaktiv=true (http://jobboerse.arbeitsagentur.de/vamJB/startseite.html?kgr=as&aa=1&m=1&vorschlagsfunktionaktiv=true)
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: BlackMilk on August 19, 2012, 02:40:48 pm
~100% loomed my old friend.
Generation 1 Level 28.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 19, 2012, 02:47:35 pm
Generation 1 Level 28.
Don't care about your gen or your level, my point is still quite valid.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Bonze on August 19, 2012, 02:49:07 pm
Generation 1 Level 28.

Come to EU1 and show us how the valour system works with no looms  mr. superman !
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: zagibu on August 19, 2012, 03:11:26 pm
Generation 1 28 Level 28 1.
Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Smoothrich on August 19, 2012, 03:31:00 pm
I played my cav alt for about an hour today, only armor loomed; non-loomed shield, non-loomed horse, non-loomed normal lance, and I was leading the score board most of the time and also got valour like every second round.

inb4 "Cav is OP anyway buhu" I didn´t play cav for like a year, I suck at cav, it was another alt before I just respecced for fun into cav.

Leading the score board/getting valou often is pretty easy without any looms if you are a halfway-good player.

hey guys the valor/points system and cav balance is fine, i'm a terrible cavalry player and i top the scoreboards and get valor every round win or lose as cav!

^^ this guy proof that current point system, new valor, and cav are all dumb
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Miwiw on August 19, 2012, 03:37:50 pm
I would remove Valour all together anyway, as it a) usually only rewards infantry players / cav players (as it is score based its no use for crossbowmen/archers/throwers/similar builds), b) and 90% of all players won't ever get valour. And those who currently get valour usually do not really need it (about 90% of those are playing all day anyway, got a high level or already enough gold).

Even if I could get valour every round, I wouldn't really need it. It's a nice addition but not really needed.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Leshma on August 19, 2012, 03:52:46 pm
You're earning shit load of points as lancer? :rolleyes:

Now make xbow char and come back saying how you get valor every time.

It's much easier to earn points with some builds compared to others. Score valor just make those builds more desirable and eventually will lead to even less build variety.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Leshma on August 19, 2012, 04:02:14 pm
Your main is piker. That also gives shitload of points if you're decent at it.

Bazinga always have a lot of points with his awlpike alt with 10 ath and light armor.

Teeth earns more points on his hoplite alt than when playing his swashbuckler main.

I can't earn many points as agi swashbuckler but if I used pierce weapon I could have at least 50% more points than I earn on average on my alt.

On main, it's easy mode. Wait for cav and dehorse them one by one, earning shitload of points.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Bonze on August 19, 2012, 04:03:11 pm
I would remove Valour all together anyway, as it a) usually only rewards infantry players / cav players (as it is score based its no use for crossbowmen/archers/throwers/similar builds), b) and 90% of all players won't ever get valour. And those who currently get valour usually do not really need it (about 90% of those are playing all day anyway, got a high level or already enough gold).

Even if I could get valour every round, I wouldn't really need it. It's a nice addition but not really needed.

exactly, casual players need more love and not the  24/7 faction .
Valour = Unnecessary ueberbuff for pro ..
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Smoothrich on August 19, 2012, 04:40:21 pm
I´m not saying anything different, neither am I in favor nor against cav, I just said what happened :D

Smoothrich just don´t knows my main Character, but he is NA, how could he.

Maybe he missunderstood me or something.

I don't see what I misunderstood, you said you were pretty bad at cavalry yet you managed to farm valor every round just because lancer cav is an OP class that gives too many points so you get valor win or lose.  Same with strength builds.

I used to prefer flanking by myself more often then not but a few rounds last night I just mindlessly went with the blob and stabbed idiots in the front line main engagement and everytime I did that I got valor, anytime I tried to flank to fight cav and other flankers I wouldn't get valor.  Flanking is worthless if you want points unless you are an OP lancer or a shielder who can just right click and survive everything until the end every round.

See:  ranged classes almost never getting valor, lighter infantry rarely if ever getting valor, strength builds and cav on winning team almost always getting valor.  Dumb.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Smoothrich on August 19, 2012, 05:22:13 pm
Oh, medium infantry can get lots of points and valor too, my main is medium armor 21/18 2hander.  Just that if I stuck with the blob and stabbed people on the front line, I got massive points and valor.  If I played how I prefer which is flanking around to hunt/bait cav, show up to the rear of big fights, all that high maneuver light infantry gameplay, I get a greatly reduced amount of points, unless I perform 150 percent and never die to ranged and 1vs1 ten people by myself that I can hit 5+ times each (almost never happens of course).

Just blob up and stab the other blob (or be cav).. such stupid gameplay and this system is rewarding that playstyle the most.  I don't need looms or levels either but if the points system replaces all XP gain eventualy it just seems like another barrier for new players to gain levels and items, since they won't even get carried to 5x by good teammates anymore.

Also valor is a kick in the nuts when the winning team gets it over and over.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Vkvkvk on August 20, 2012, 04:03:43 am
You don't need heirlooms or even a solid build to get Valor.

Case in point:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


6/33 build with extremely light armor and nothing but a spear and I can still get Valor no problem.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Bonze on August 20, 2012, 08:46:13 pm
You don't need heirlooms or even a solid build to get Valor.

Case in point:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


6/33 build with extremely light armor and nothing but a spear and I can still get Valor no problem.









Its a endless gold raining system for people with the most looms  and playtime (damage ! + level).
.

acknowledgment  ............6/33 Build ..............thx  :wink:


bad example ..
Spear/pike thrust is bugged like hell (hits from 30 cm distance with a 2 meter long pike isnt fair sportsmanship)


Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Vkvkvk on August 20, 2012, 09:35:44 pm

acknowledgment  ............6/33 Build ..............thx  :wink:


bad example ..
Spear/pike thrust is bugged like hell (hits from 30 cm distance with a 2 meter long pike isnt fair sportsmanship)

I'm sorry, what? I feel like I'm having more trouble than I should trying to understand what you typed just now.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Phew on August 20, 2012, 09:36:50 pm
Now that siege has valor, I think valor is more accessible than ever. Nearly anyone can get valor on siege by:

1. Mauling the top of a ladder on D
2. Throwing/shooting down a ladder on D
3. Piking through a gate on D
4. Defending a choke point with lots of teammates on D
5. Hunting archers on the walls as O

OK, so getting valor is a bit harder when you're on offense. But now there is a reward for playing defense on siege (which is usually a miserable proposition).
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Torost on August 20, 2012, 11:02:48 pm
Im an archer(Rusbow and 2 stacks of arrows)and I only only room for a 0slot meleewep so I try to stay out of melee.
I do decent damage from time to time, rack up a bunch of points if I get lucky.

It is extremely rare that I get valor at end the end of the round.
And when I do, im always at X1 anyway.

Usually it is in situations where I am among the last few and all out of arrows, resorting to picking up random polearms and 2handers.
Charge and swing like a madman, and get the occational kill. Doesnt happen all that much.

Would really like to know how the valor is decided. Because it certainly does not favour ranged combat.
And maybe it should not either... RUNAWAY!!!  :mrgreen:

A fixed sum of bonusgold would be a much better reward IMO , than keeping a X1 multi..
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: rustyspoon on August 20, 2012, 11:36:39 pm
Now that siege has valor, I think valor is more accessible than ever. Nearly anyone can get valor on siege by:

1. Mauling the top of a ladder on D
2. Throwing/shooting down a ladder on D
3. Piking through a gate on D
4. Defending a choke point with lots of teammates on D
5. Hunting archers on the walls as O

OK, so getting valor is a bit harder when you're on offense. But now there is a reward for playing defense on siege (which is usually a miserable proposition).

I'm still not sold on the new valor system especially on siege. I played siege a bit yesterday. I got valor every single round whether I was offense or defense, won or lost. If I won twice, I'd get an x5 due to valor. If I then lost, I was just down to an x4. It just seems terribly broken to me.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Digglez on August 21, 2012, 05:11:18 am
Now that siege has valor, I think valor is more accessible than ever. Nearly anyone can get valor on siege by:

1. Mauling the top of a ladder on D
2. Throwing/shooting down a ladder on D
3. Piking through a gate on D
4. Defending a choke point with lots of teammates on D
5. Hunting archers on the walls as O

OK, so getting valor is a bit harder when you're on offense. But now there is a reward for playing defense on siege (which is usually a miserable proposition).

zomg, playing as a team?
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Molly on August 21, 2012, 06:46:01 am
I keep saying this for weeks already: Remove valour cuz it's stupid.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Vibe on August 21, 2012, 07:18:48 am
Why would valour be stupid? It rewards players who get high scores - that is either by damaging/killing people or horses, while sticking close to the group which is basically what battle is about?
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: dodnet on August 21, 2012, 08:03:57 am
With old system valour was fairly ok, but now its the same ppl getting valour almost every round. Its not a reward anymore, its a slap in the face to all others who don't get it. Its esp frustrating if only the winning team gets valour. They get 1 multi for free. And most of them who get it, don't really need it (including me).
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: gazda on August 21, 2012, 09:55:12 am
just do a complete wipe of everything, gold , looms, gens, levels, strat and all will be fine
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Lech on August 21, 2012, 10:30:21 am
With old system valour was fairly ok, but now its the same ppl getting valour almost every round. Its not a reward anymore, its a slap in the face to all others who don't get it. Its esp frustrating if only the winning team gets valour. They get 1 multi for free. And most of them who get it, don't really need it (including me).

Got valor 3 times on battle in a row (i lost every single battle on the map), got it on siege fairy often. Why shouldn't i get rewarded for my good play ?
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Gimest on August 21, 2012, 10:44:17 am
just do a complete wipe of everything, gold , looms, gens, levels, strat and all will be fine

This would just move the problem to future, if nothing gets changed big time, theres no reason to wipe. Its alot better to solve the problem then move it for future ;)

There was a time when we had no valour, I would appreciate if it gets removed, or altered so only low level or Gen 1 player can actually get it, as award that they play with non-loomed/low level characters against fully-loomed high level people. 

Now this would be pretty nice for the new players, or it just could go back to reward only players from losing team, wich was pretty nice.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Tzar on August 21, 2012, 11:21:19 am
I love this new system its quite fun to be rewarded from playing your best at times.  :)

Its quite refreshing instead of the Stalin soviet system we are used too..

Offcourse baddies will be jelly an want the system removed..
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Molly on August 21, 2012, 11:47:13 am
The battle is about winning and loosing as team. Excluding few players from the consequence of the team effort is... you may have guessed it already... stupid.

Either your team wins and everyone gets a reward already or your team loses and there is no point rewarding few who did exceptional good cuz they still failed, obviously.
Atm it's especially bad because it's indeed always the same people getting valour. Before it had at least a rather random feel to it which at least seemed to be some kind of fair. Now it's always the same strenght crutching spammer or cav player who is rewarded. Ofc they like the new valour. For people playing unpopular builds and/or weapons it's a slap in the face.

Conclusion: Do it like Warlord nicely suggested and cap it to gen 1 players till lvl 30 or remove it completely.

It may be different for siege. Can't tell cuz I don't play it. For battle it's stupid.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Tzar on August 21, 2012, 01:05:45 pm
Atm it's especially bad because it's indeed always the same people getting valour. Before it had at least a rather random feel to it which at least seemed to be some kind of fair. Now it's always the same strenght crutching spammer or cav player who is rewarded. Ofc they like the new valour. For people playing unpopular builds and/or weapons it's a slap in the face.

Not true speaking from my own point of view i dunno how many 2h/throwers there are out there but i seem to do just fine.
I could also resume alot of other builds getting valour today.

Also.

Offcourse baddies will be jelly an want the system removed..
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Vibe on August 21, 2012, 01:14:05 pm
The battle is about winning and loosing as team. Excluding few players from the consequence of the team effort is... you may have guessed it already... stupid.

Either your team wins and everyone gets a reward already or your team loses and there is no point rewarding few who did exceptional good cuz they still failed, obviously.
Atm it's especially bad because it's indeed always the same people getting valour. Before it had at least a rather random feel to it which at least seemed to be some kind of fair. Now it's always the same strenght crutching spammer or cav player who is rewarded. Ofc they like the new valour. For people playing unpopular builds and/or weapons it's a slap in the face.

Conclusion: Do it like Warlord nicely suggested and cap it to gen 1 players till lvl 30 or remove it completely.

It may be different for siege. Can't tell cuz I don't play it. For battle it's stupid.

So good players should be punished because the balance decided that they should play with a bad team?
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Molly on August 21, 2012, 01:27:26 pm
Not true speaking from my own point of view i dunno how many 2h/throwers there are out there but i seem to do just fine.
I could also resume alot of other builds getting valour today.

Also.
Yea, and now guess how much damage they deal with throwing and how much with their 2h? Thanks for the nice example.

Also, even Meow said way back already that he thinks valour is bullshit. I happen to agree, you don't.


So good players should be punished because the balance decided that they should play with a bad team?
I don't see it as punishment. That is just the way the gamemode works atm. Blame the devs for even introducing the multiplier, on which they seem to now agree, introducing it was a bad decision. Battle with xp barn didnt know "rewarding" and "punishing", neither leeching. That all came up with the multiplier and the upkeep. And at the beginning I'd like to remind everyone about Agor, valour whoring. Same valour whoring will come up again now.

You're earning shit load of points as lancer? :rolleyes:

Now make xbow char and come back saying how you get valor every time.

It's much easier to earn points with some builds compared to others. Score valor just make those builds more desirable and eventually will lead to even less build variety.

QFT. More "effective" builds for valour whoring.


I generally dislike things that give an advantage to a few. That is always bad.

Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: dodnet on August 21, 2012, 01:29:50 pm
So good players should be punished because the balance decided that they should play with a bad team?

Without valour, no one is punished. Everyone is treated the same, if your team wins you win, if it loses you lose. But why should some special ppl get a bonus, just because they did more damage/points than someone else. I really watched that yesterday and within 5 or 6 rounds it were always the same group of ppl getting valour, most of the time the ones of the winning team. Thats just ridiculous.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Vibe on August 21, 2012, 01:41:28 pm
But why should some special ppl get a bonus, just because they did more damage/points than someone else.

I believe you answered the question yourself. Because they did more points means they contributed more towards team victory (in battle). Not getting jack shit because your team sucks while you did your best means that the good players are punished.

I don't see it as punishment. That is just the way the gamemode works atm. Blame the devs for even introducing the multiplier, on which they seem to now agree, introducing it was a bad decision. Battle with xp barn didnt know "rewarding" and "punishing", neither leeching. That all came up with the multiplier and the upkeep. And at the beginning I'd like to remind everyone about Agor, valour whoring. Same valour whoring will come up again now.

Valour farming Agor style is not possible anymore, you need to contribute to your team now, you can't get it just by being last one alive and delaying rounds like the delay king Agor. Now players who contribute more get valour and others get the multi if their team wins. Players who are not getting valour are not losing anything more than they did before valour.
So why would anyone be angered because of valour other than jealousy?
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on August 21, 2012, 01:46:18 pm
Remove valour. I enjoyed the short time without valour very much.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Molly on August 21, 2012, 01:48:44 pm
[...]
Valour farming Agor style is not possible anymore, you need to contribute to your team now, you can't get it just by being last one alive and delaying rounds, like the delay king Agor. Now players who contribute more get valour and others get the multi if their team wins. Players who are not getting valour are not losing anything more than they did before valour.
So why would anyone be angered because of valour other than jealousy?
I wonder why everyone who disagrees with you is always either jealous, butthurt, mad, angry or all of those. Weird...

I gave all my reasons for disliking valour above and I am obviously not the only one. Summed up: in every single game I ever played, I always disliked "features" that boost a few people over the main playerbase. That is exactly what valour does.
I could bring up the "he may not kill/score as much as others but maybe he does the important things"-argument but that has been said like a million times already but has been proven useless as an argument. Not wrong, mind you, but useless.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Vibe on August 21, 2012, 01:53:11 pm
I wonder why everyone who disagrees with you is always either jealous, butthurt, mad, angry or all of those. Weird...

I gave all my reasons for disliking valour above and I am obviously not the only one. Summed up: in every single game I ever played, I always disliked "features" that boost a few people over the main playerbase. That is exactly what valour does.
I could bring up the "he may not kill/score as much as others but maybe he does the important things"-argument but that has been said like a million times already but has been proven useless as an argument. Not wrong, mind you, but useless.

Oh it's just another one of your attempts to "casualize" the game then?
 "he may not kill/score as much as others but maybe he does the important things" - this is correct, if battle gamemode was more objective based, sadly it isn't, it's about killing the other team.

I said jealous because I don't see any other reason why anyone would be bothered by someone else getting valour. They deserved it.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: dodnet on August 21, 2012, 01:53:47 pm
So why would anyone be angered because of valour other than jealousy?

May it be jealousy... I got valour yesterday the first round I played and not anymore later. I don't care about that very much, I went back to x5 without it quite often. But seeing the same names getting valour over and over regardless if they're on the winning or losing team makes me kinda angry (and maybe jealous), because they are on a constant x5. This is just unfair to all others, not to speak about lower levels who have a hard time getting valour at all.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Vibe on August 21, 2012, 01:57:00 pm
May it be jealousy... I got valour yesterday the first round I played and not anymore later. I don't care about that very much, I went back to x5 without it quite often. But seeing the same names getting valour over and over regardless if they're on the winning or losing team makes me kinda angry (and maybe jealous), because they are on a constant x5. This is just unfair to all others, not to speak about lower levels who have a hard time getting valour at all.

Well I don't see it as unfair. Obviously they earned it by performing better than the rest, why shouldn't they deserve an extra reward? As for lower levels that is a matter of tweaking the valour system so lower levels get their piece of cake as well.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: [ptx] on August 21, 2012, 02:03:02 pm
Siege is objective based. Still, on most maps, it works as intended (that is, i get x5 :D)
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: dodnet on August 21, 2012, 02:05:18 pm
Lets make a small calculation with an imaginary guy getting valour every round and one getting no valour at all:

with valour:
x1
Win: x3
Win: x5
Lose: x4
Lose: x3
Lose: x2
Win: x4
Win: x5
= x3,7

without valour:
x1
Win: x2
Win: x3
Lose: x1
Lose: x1
Lose: x1
Win: x2
Win: x3
= x1,8

This is heavily unbalanced, he gets more than double multi by that. Second thing is that all players with builds > 31 get a huge advantage on this. I really would like to see guys like Massassin with the new system, he should be able to get valour every round. And builds > 31 are exactly the ones who shouldn't get an extra bonus on this. It makes the gap between low and high/poor and rich even bigger...

In comparison old system, with valour only if you lose:
x1
Win: x2
Win: x3
Lose: x2
Lose: x2
Lose: x2
Win: x3
Win: x4
= x2,5

Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Vibe on August 21, 2012, 02:10:28 pm
This is heavily unbalanced, he gets more than double multi by that. Second thing is that all players with builds > 31 get a huge advantage on this. I really would like to see guys like Massassin with the new system, he should be able to get valour every round. And builds > 31 are exactly the ones who shouldn't get an extra bonus on this. It makes the gap between low and high/poor and rich even bigger...

Ehh, that is what cRPG is about though? It's about builds and gear and level and I guess some skill. It's not going to be fair unless you make it Native.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Phew on August 21, 2012, 03:20:09 pm
I think the whole system should be re-done based on difficulty. If as a lvl 8 peasant you kill/damage a lvl 34 with full looms, you should be heavily rewarded. Conversely, slaying a bunch of peasants when you are lvl 34 with full looms is no feat, and shouldn't be rewarded. The current point system forms a solid basis for this concept; someone's point value when killed/injured shouldn't be based on their hit points, but rather their average points/round. Then award XP/gold proportional to points earned (in addition to the current multiplier system), and scrap valor, which is too boolean.



Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Tzar on August 21, 2012, 03:28:30 pm
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Teeth on August 21, 2012, 04:57:47 pm
OP still thinks that players do good because of their looms/level. Hah, I hate to break it to you, but those people are just good at this game. Looms is at most a 10% advantage, which is still too much in my opinion, but won't make a bad player good or the other way around.

I hate to use this term, but l2p.

Teeth earns more points on his hoplite alt than when playing his swashbuckler main.
This is true, random ass build, zero experience and zero looms and I can get top points quite reliably. I've been considering respeccing my main. Playing hoplite is just such a lazy class to play. You just need some battle awareness. You don't have to worry about blocking, cav, archers or more than one attack. Just point and click.

Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Molly on August 21, 2012, 05:17:03 pm
[...]
This is true, random ass build, zero experience and zero looms and I can get top points quite reliably. I've been considering respeccing my main. Playing hoplite is just such a lazy class to play. You just need some battle awareness. You don't have to worry about blocking, cav, archers or more than one attack. Just point and click.
So, wouldn't you rather see your gimped swashbuckler rewarded instead of your lameass hoplite.
Personally, I'd like to see valour removed basicly since it was introduced. Not going to happen anyway. Maybe we can at least agree that there is a lot to tweak about it that the proper people get it. Just strength crutching and 2h stab only isn't something that should be rewarded but playing something that adds to the game could deserve something.

From my observation, and since I suck and die pretty soon into a round I have a lot of time to spec, a save way to get valour right now is: Get a build with lots of PS, at least 8, better is 9 or more, grab a big 2h sword, run with the mob, gank people by just stabbing them once or twice, no need to kill anyone, try to kill 1 or 2 horses, WIN!

Fun thing is that probably even I could do that playstyle successfully. There isn't even a need to block when doing a round like this. Just stay with the mob, get a stab in and stay back again. Lots of people actually do that... I think it's boring and lame.

...btw nice example from DoD there.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Leshma on August 21, 2012, 05:21:12 pm
OP still thinks that players do good because of their looms/level. Hah, I hate to break it to you, but those people are just good at this game. Looms is at most a 10% advantage, which is still too much in my opinion, but won't make a bad player good or the other way around.

Currently I'm playing without looms. Have 54 HP and 39 body armor and can't survive more than 3 hits, usually end up killed in one.

High level build could have 7 more HP (13% more HP) and with looms that's 48 body armor which is 23% more armor. Those are just numbers, in most situations loomed high level build can survive a lot more shit than my current build with regular equipment.

Also my last proper swashbuckler build had 70 HP and 63 body armor. That was a tank able to survive more than 5 good hits and up to 10 weaker hits. That was lvl 30 build tho, at level 35 I can make 27/18 build which is simply ridiculous build.

In other words, looms/levels make a huge difference.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Leshma on August 21, 2012, 05:25:48 pm
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against looms (but would like to see dealier weapons) but downplaying effect of looms/levels is just wrong.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Gurnisson on August 21, 2012, 05:26:48 pm
Currently I'm playing without looms. Have 54 HP and 39 body armor and can't survive more than 3 hits, usually end up killed in one.

High level build could have 7 more HP (13% more HP) and with looms that's 48 body armor which is 23% more armor. Those are just numbers, in most situations loomed high level build can survive a lot more shit than my current build with regular equipment.

Also my last proper swashbuckler build had 70 HP and 63 body armor. That was a tank able to survive more than 5 good hits and up to 10 weaker hits. That was lvl 30 build tho, at level 35 I can make 27/18 build which is simply ridiculous build.

In other words, looms/levels make huge difference.

But it all boils down to how you play. A good player can avoid bad situations (archer/cavalry focusing on you etc.) and avoid being hit in melee and then the extra hp/armour is redundant. It wasn't hard topping the scoreboard with 5 ps, 5 if, 6 ath, 5 wm build with non-loomed elite scimitar and 3 body armour. It just requires a different playstyle than with loomed stuff and high strength and ironflesh.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Molly on August 21, 2012, 05:28:32 pm
But it all boils down to how you play. A good player can avoid bad situations (archer/cavalry focusing on you etc.) and avoid being hit in melee and then the extra hp/armour is redundant. It wasn't hard topping the scoreboard with 5 ps, 5 if, 6 ath, 5 wm build with non-loomed elite scimitar and 3 body armour. It just requires a different playstyle than with loomed stuff and high strength and ironflesh.
Which kinda doesn't change the fact that loomed items do give an advantage that matters at times.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Gurnisson on August 21, 2012, 05:30:26 pm
Which kinda doesn't change the fact that loomed items do give an advantage that matters at times.

It does give an advantage, but it's not major (at least for most items).
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Logen on August 21, 2012, 05:38:28 pm
But it all boils down to how you play. A good player can avoid bad situations (archer/cavalry focusing on you etc.) and avoid being hit in melee and then the extra hp/armour is redundant. It wasn't hard topping the scoreboard with 5 ps, 5 if, 6 ath, 5 wm build with non-loomed elite scimitar and 3 body armour. It just requires a different playstyle than with loomed stuff and high strength and ironflesh.
It requires a more(much more?) demanding playstyle. A good player who avoids bad situations and avoids being hit in melee and has all his stuff fully loomed will achieve better results with less effort.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Leshma on August 21, 2012, 05:38:46 pm
But it all boils down to how you play. A good player can avoid bad situations (archer/cavalry focusing on you etc.) and avoid being hit in melee and then the extra hp/armour is redundant. It wasn't hard topping the scoreboard with 5 ps, 5 if, 6 ath, 5 wm build with non-loomed elite scimitar and 3 body armour. It just requires a different playstyle than with loomed stuff and high strength and ironflesh.

Dealing with any dude with a STR build and greatsword is extremely hard with build you've described. You need to hit them 4 times in the head, only left swing won't glance. Overhead is hard to aim and thrust is risky business. Right glance is useful at range, up close glances way too many times. With 100 wpf you can't spam anyone, really.

STR dude needs just one solid stab to fuck you up real good.

I would like to encourage you to make such alt you've desribed here, play a little bit on EU1 without loomed gear and post screens of you with over 150 points.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Teeth on August 21, 2012, 07:12:43 pm
So, wouldn't you rather see your gimped swashbuckler rewarded instead of your lameass hoplite.
No, my hoplite doesn't get rewarded enough. This score system does not reward the extreme psychological effect that having a 200 range stab in the second rank of a group has on the enemy group, it is extremely annoying and distracting.

Now ofcourse that is impossible to implement, but I feel it is completely justified that I gain more points as a hoplite than as my swashbuckler. Hopliting isn't lame, it's the most classy class after swashbuckling.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Plavor on August 21, 2012, 07:20:38 pm
Looms mostly matter as a range player.

If an archer use unloomed bow and arrows, he gonna aim for the head to do a lot of dmg.

If an archer use loomed bow and arrows, he gonna aim for everything he can hit since his dmg is huge compared to an unloomed archer.


Armorlooms also makes a small different but not a big one if you can block like a boss.

Meleeweapons are also good if they are unloomed in my opinion.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Lech on August 21, 2012, 08:25:01 pm
(click to show/hide)

If i remember right, losing with x5 and valor means you keep x5. Losing at x2 with valor means you have x3. So it's bit off. Also, while technically it's possible to get valor each round, it's not needed and require too much focus.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Lech on August 21, 2012, 08:29:27 pm
Looms mostly matter as a range player.

If an archer use unloomed bow and arrows, he gonna aim for the head to do a lot of dmg.

If an archer use loomed bow and arrows, he gonna aim for everything he can hit since his dmg is huge compared to an unloomed archer.


Armorlooms also makes a small different but not a big one if you can block like a boss.

Meleeweapons are also good if they are unloomed in my opinion.

Unless it's cut 1h weapon, or cut lowdamage pole/2h. Then it matter a lot.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on August 21, 2012, 08:35:33 pm
To the folks saying that ranged cannot get valour; I must disagree. Certainly, it is a bit more difficult than playing a 2h str-hero or something, but I have seen many players on NA1 that are ranged get valour, including myself on occasion. I am currently a 15-24 arbalestier with a MW arbalest as my only loom I am using. Now, that is a loom certainly, but this is my first generation as arbalestier, or even ranged-dominant and I feel that my lack of experience should somewhat mitigate the fact that I have a loomed arbalest. I've gotten valour about 5-6 times on NA one since it was changed, and I feel that I do not deserve any more or any less. If I shoot a lot of bitches, I get valour. If I don't, I do not get valour. Nothing wrong here that I see.

As a secondary point, people without heirlooms should consider NOT playing a ranged class. The first thing many new players do is grab a bow because that is how it's done in the native singleplayer and modded singleplayer, where these people often come from. cRPG as a game/mod will always benefit those that have put more time in to the game, both due to leveling/looms and the (comparatively, I mean look at recent games coming out) ridiculous skill-curve. I don't think that a generation 1 new player, even at 30, should be able to reliably get valour unless he is somehow fucking godly at the game out of nowhere. If the score formula was somehow changed to benefit ranged-classes, and score ended up being used for something besides dick-waving, it would encourage new and old players alike to go ranged. In my opinion, ranged, lancers, ranged cav, etc are fine in small numbers, but in large quantities of any of these classes, the fun wears out real quick for me.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: dodnet on August 21, 2012, 09:22:28 pm
As I said I made some screenshots yesterday. These screens are all six rounds within 15 minutes. I screened every valour at each round during that time. Nord_Lezard had four valour in a row... come on... there were around 80 ppl on the server at this time.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Siiem on August 21, 2012, 09:26:46 pm
As I said I made some screenshots yesterday. These screens are all six rounds within 15 minutes. I screened every valour at each round during that time. Nord_Lezard had four valour in a row... come on... there were around 80 ppl on the server at this time.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Invalid claim, Lezard is a boss. If you are captain America... He would be superman, Batman and Ironman combined.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: rustyspoon on August 21, 2012, 09:28:32 pm
Players who do well should be rewarded. I just think that this combined with multis is a broken system. I get valor pretty frequently and it just seems crazy to me that I only need two wins in a row to be rocking an x5.

Just give people who get valor a fat xp/gold bonus instead.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Smoothrich on August 21, 2012, 09:33:13 pm
only give it to losing team, banner stackers who win more often then not already don't need to stack multis, clanless player who does well every round but gets stuck on shit team due to banner balance is the truly valorous one
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Leshma on August 21, 2012, 09:38:49 pm
As I said I made some screenshots yesterday. These screens are all six rounds within 15 minutes. I screened every valour at each round during that time. Nord_Lezard had four valour in a row... come on... there were around 80 ppl on the server at this time.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Do you know what all those people have in common?
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Gurnisson on August 21, 2012, 09:43:06 pm
Found a pic of Lezard while playing yesterday

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Lezard on August 21, 2012, 09:55:42 pm
Anyone else wanna stroke my e-peen? Gurni deserves a nibble!

I like where this valour system is going, but it could use some modifications. I bet someone who's neutral in the "team vs lone hero" argument could think of something reasonable.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: dodnet on August 21, 2012, 09:59:24 pm
Ok ok... I understood... all the top players should get constant x5, so they level even fast then the rest of the pub. Make it so and remove valour  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Vibe on August 21, 2012, 10:28:07 pm
Maybe if you complained less and tried more you would get valour once in a while?
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: dodnet on August 21, 2012, 10:42:13 pm
Maybe if you complained less and tried more you would get valour once in a while?

I do get it... it's not about me getting no valour, its about some getting valour all the time.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Leshma on August 21, 2012, 10:49:46 pm
Ok ok... I understood... all the top players should get constant x5, so they level even fast then the rest of the pub. Make it so and remove valour  :rolleyes:

Well they are all exceptionally good but that's not what I had in mind.

They are shielders.

Today I've figured out how to get a lot of points with my gimped melee build with no looms. Trick is to stay near fight but don't risk death. Proximity score you'll get is far better than any kill you can score.

Of course, it's easiest for shielders to survive in those situations and that's why they lead the scoreboard.

*** not tested ***

There is also part I'm not sure about but I think that proximity score starts counting when you're either taking or inflicting damage or anyone in near you doing the same.

Difference between blocking with melee weapon and blocking with a shield is that shields take damage so it might be possible that every time someone is pounding on your shield, that counts as fighting and you get points. When you're blocking manually there is no proximity bonus unless you're taking or inflicting damage.

If this is true, horsemen should get some points every time their horse get hit but doubt it.

*** not tested ***
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: dodnet on August 21, 2012, 11:08:28 pm
I think there are some other factors involved in proximity score. I noticed that you even get points after you die if there is still fighting near your slain body.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Leshma on August 21, 2012, 11:28:27 pm
Also DoD, let me give you piece of advice.

Forget about battle.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Phew on August 22, 2012, 12:32:25 am
I've noticed that damaging an enemy is generally only worth 1-2 points. However, running around near an enemy with my shield up usually results in 2 points when my teammates kill him. Less risk, more reward?
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Lech on August 22, 2012, 01:05:35 pm
I've noticed that damaging an enemy is generally only worth 1-2 points. However, running around near an enemy with my shield up usually results in 2 points when my teammates kill him. Less risk, more reward?

Killing is worth more. Also, you may think it's less rewarding as 1h deal less damage and you get non-proportional amount of points depending on damage done (it's mere integer rounded down).
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Phew on August 22, 2012, 05:43:13 pm
Killing is worth more. Also, you may think it's less rewarding as 1h deal less damage and you get non-proportional amount of points depending on damage done (it's mere integer rounded down).

My +3 mil hammer does about the same damage on most armored targets as a greatsword, but I routinely find myself getting 1 point for hitting a medium armor target. Does "rounded down" mean if I deal 19 damage, I get only 1 point?
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Lech on August 23, 2012, 01:01:05 am
My +3 mil hammer does about the same damage on most armored targets as a greatsword, but I routinely find myself getting 1 point for hitting a medium armor target. Does "rounded down" mean if I deal 19 damage, I get only 1 point?

If i remember right, yes.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Bjord on August 23, 2012, 01:57:33 am
Valour is what makes it even remotely worth to play siege now, it rewards teamplayers and players who make a difference. Some people let chance decide if they gain multi or not, and others actively try to tip the scale. Who should be rewarded, do you think?

In my opinion, reward those who do exceptionally well.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Tzar on August 23, 2012, 02:18:52 am
What bjord said before even if you gave it your best you would still get raped by upkeep now at least you make your income somewhat stable if your able to kick ass.  :lol:
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Teeth on August 23, 2012, 12:11:48 pm
Still siege should have some mechanics that actually reward fighting where its necessary. I was valour whoring on there and sometimes I made decisions to go somewhere to get more points, which wasn't good for our defense or offense. Proximity to the flag comes to mind. Or stop awarding points to defenders that are fighting elsewhere while the flag is being capped.

Getting high points is not really the same as being useful to your team yet on siege.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Bjord on August 23, 2012, 12:14:46 pm
True, but I go where most enemies are, and that's usually our flag.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Lech on August 23, 2012, 04:01:05 pm
Still siege should have some mechanics that actually reward fighting where its necessary. I was valour whoring on there and sometimes I made decisions to go somewhere to get more points, which wasn't good for our defense or offense. Proximity to the flag comes to mind. Or stop awarding points to defenders that are fighting elsewhere while the flag is being capped.

Getting high points is not really the same as being useful to your team yet on siege.

While true, problem lies in siege mode mechanic, that is utter crap. BUT we know new siege will be soon (december 2010 if i remember right), so let's  just wait and see.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: HarunYahya on August 26, 2012, 05:56:10 am
The new valour system is bloody boring.Its a endless gold raining system for people with the most looms  and playtime (damage ! + level).

Who benefits from new system?
24/7 , people with no job ...

Remove it or give us 1 day without looms per Week,
like the Melee only day long time ago ...
I just gave you +1 because that is one of the most weird avatars that i've seen in this forum and deserves to be seen more.
Don't rain -'s to that guy and don't make him leave this forum !
We need to see assbreast dude more often !
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on August 27, 2012, 06:41:00 pm
Its alot better than the last system were people were drawing out rounds in an attempt to get valor, like George Washington. What other measurable could/should you use to determine valor?
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: RandomDude on September 02, 2012, 08:59:50 pm
I was playing siege earlier, and the team wasnt really going for the flag, just gang banging people as attackers (not much change there) and I began to play more to dmg people, hoping to get valour bcos I couldnt rely on my team to take the flag.

Not sure if it's a good or bad thing.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Toodles on September 02, 2012, 09:25:55 pm
I was playing siege earlier, and the team wasnt really going for the flag, just gang banging people as attackers (not much change there) and I began to play more to dmg people, hoping to get valour bcos I couldnt rely on my team to take the flag.

Not sure if it's a good or bad thing.

Points for raising (as defender) or lowering (as attacker) flag ought to fix that on siege. Bit strange to reward damage but not assistance in completing the actual goal of the game.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: RandomDude on September 02, 2012, 09:35:52 pm
Points for raising (as defender) or lowering (as attacker) flag ought to fix that on siege. Bit strange to reward damage but not assistance in completing the actual goal of the game.

Yeah i had a similar thought. I also wondered if people were getting points for raising ladders because out of 20 people waiting to go up at least 4 walked over it several times and tried to raise it themselves.

Maybe it could just be some bonus for fighting near the flag eg 50% extra for damaging near the flag would be good but then for the close matches where most of the players are near the flag it might not work as intended.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Toodles on September 02, 2012, 09:50:59 pm
I only played siege once since the new score formula, didn't really pay enough attention to it - maybe some of these mechanisms are in place already? Will check it out if I get the chance. A bonus near flag could work although it would be a shame to punish defenders for holding points of strategic importance that AREN'T in the vicinity of the flag - if the score (and thus multi, eventually) is to be gained simply by fighting near the flag, well, it sounds a lot like some sort of an xp barn to me, something I believe the devs are trying to avoid. I think something more contextual would be better, but again, I'm not sure of what's in place currently.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: camperus on September 04, 2012, 12:18:32 am
Yeah i had a similar thought. I also wondered if people were getting points for raising ladders because out of 20 people waiting to go up at least 4 walked over it several times and tried to raise it themselves.

Maybe it could just be some bonus for fighting near the flag eg 50% extra for damaging near the flag would be good but then for the close matches where most of the players are near the flag it might not work as intended.
U get points staying in hot places, thats mean attacking or defending with the main group so its not a deathmatch if u want valor.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Turboflex on September 05, 2012, 05:45:58 pm
I don't think siege needs special bonuses for ladders or flag area, the main reward is still team victory.

Sometimes it's smarter to be at a choke, not flag, adding weird incentives to be somewhere will skew this dynamic gameplay.

Yes some top players might think they can go for valor instead of team victory, and to do that they would wanna be in middle of heavy combat as much as possible, but if they don't get enough points, and then their team loses cuz they were on walls instead of at chokes/flag, they get nothing.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on September 05, 2012, 07:33:21 pm
The main reward for most is team victory. I can get valour 50% of the time, if I really care to kill people.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: v/onMega on September 06, 2012, 01:32:43 pm
And I allrdy wondered.

Played a lil bit more then an hour in the last 2 weeks, yet made over 10k profit.

Oh wait, maybe, because I stomped 6+ ppl. in the few rounds and basiclly had awesome multis only.

Thats a nice bonus for a good performance.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Tomas on September 07, 2012, 08:19:02 pm
What if you could only get valour when on a x1 or x2.  That way it becomes something that saves you from bad multis or accelerates you towards good multis but does not keep you rolling your x5 forever.
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: Tindel on September 11, 2012, 06:56:32 pm
Valor on siege is great since it encourage you to be really active. If you keep pushing whole round and work hard i think you deserve a reward
Title: Re: Valour endless gold raining ...
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 11, 2012, 06:58:33 pm
I think they should not cap multi at x5...if you keep winning, or keep being a great asset to your team, you should keep getting rewarded.

Can't count how many times I've been at x5 and gotten valor only to think "meh"