My problem is that there either too many archers or they are dealing too much damage. Giving them an opportunity to even multiply their damage with some aoe-buff doesnt appeal to me.
Currently I have 18 strength and 6 IF, wearing a Mongol Armor +2. After being hint 2 times to the body I am dead or so low on hp that a sneeze by someone could kill me. Take the hilarious shooting speed of archers into account and you might understand my frustration with 20+ ranged on EU1 regularly.
And it's not just me or some 2h-heroes complaining. There is a common "dislike" on the server for the amount of ranged. Not necessarily the kiting, the reload speed or the damage. The problem is the amount of them.
No surprise that people start to play siege more often or even start to roll archer/crossbowmen and shoot back. EU1 barely reaches the 100+ playercount anymore. I remember times when I had to ask a teammate on the server to make the admin kick specs so I could join. Hell, Franky got banned 48h for excessive spectating with the reason that "he is denying others to play". Now we have a shiny 200 slot server which has as much players as NA1 at times it used to crowded before.
So in short: Yes to everything that gives archers a harder time as now and if it leads to a decrease in archer population. No to everything that would make it even slightly "cool" to play and attract even more.
Too much arrows? What the fuck?thats exactly what i want
You can just say that you want Archery removed.
Lock thread.
Xbows are not overpowered, true that they give more damage, but they need to reload, you're talking about arbalist, costs a lot to carry AND takes few seconds to reload, it is meant to be a 1hit kill weapon, if even a archer doesn't die by a single shot of it, whats the point of carrying a crossbow that costs almost 19k then?-Archery costs much more, thanks to the arrows breaking chance being increased.
i tried out archery for a month before posting this, my STF archer without any looms can take people down with 3 hits..-You played a class for a month, and you've clearly understood everything about it. Please teach me master.
PD does decrease wpf, but that only means you have a smaller window of opportunity to take a accurate shot, i simply redraw when that happens.
as for throwing, they their ammo IS much less then archers and xbows, and they need to be much closer then the other 2 classes to be effective, so they're not OP either.Tell that to the melee getting one hit by a throwing lance. If you want to change range. Change ALL range. Don't do halfassed things. Even though, at the moment, throwing seems balanced, could even used a buff.
when u can 3hit kill players with a STF char without any looms, that means archers are as strong as any melee fighter, plus they've got range AND they don't need to wear heavy armor which boosts their speed. can you comment on that?-So, they're as strong as melee. So it's balanced ? Thanks for pointing that for us. Lock thread.
ps. with 30 arrows available i never even have to pick up any arrows on the ground cuz i have more then enough the whole time-[ironic]Learn to shoot. If you don't shoot, of course you'll always have enough arrows the whole time.[/ironic]
Why is everyone assuming that archers would melee if they could? Well, first of all they can, just not very effective. And most archers won't engage in melee even with PS and WPF in it. Why should they? The are archers! Except for a few archers, most will always keep running as long as it makes sense. They choose to shoot instead of melee and you think they would all of a sudden engange in close range? How naive.
Why is everyone assuming that archers would melee if they could? Well, first of all they can, just not very effective. And most archers won't engage in melee even with PS and WPF in it. Why should they? The are archers! Except for a few archers, most will always keep running as long as it makes sense. They choose to shoot instead of melee and you think they would all of a sudden engange in close range? How naive.
Why is everyone assuming that archers would melee if they could? Well, first of all they can, just not very effective. And most archers won't engage in melee even with PS and WPF in it. Why should they? The are archers! Except for a few archers, most will always keep running as long as it makes sense. They choose to shoot instead of melee and you think they would all of a sudden engange in close range? How naive.
Tell that to the melee getting one hit by a throwing lance. If you want to change range. Change ALL range. Don't do halfassed things.
2-3 body hits with arrows and I am dead. 2-3 hits with a 2h sword and I am dead.
Sounds the same to me, except I can actually hit back when attacked by the 2h.
No, meleers do more damage because they hit a lot more often. The damage done by each class has been displayed some time ago, and it's not a prety picture for archers, while melee dominates the deal. Get your facts straight and stop decieving people.
exactly, and melee hits can be blocked, arrows cannotYou forget that the super heroes can just endless spamm their attacks with yedi speed while ranged classes have a limited amount of ammo.
and archers never run around alone, its either in groups of 3-4 or they are hiding behind a group of infantry
they're like pikers with longer range and more damage.
well it depends on the builds if you compare a archer using tartar arrows with 4-5PD with a horn bow, ofcourse its gonna awefull, same as a dude with 5PS and a falcion or something
try comparing a 7 PD archer with rus bow and bodkin arrows (the oh so great piercing damage) against a 7 PS long/german greatsword
on perfect hit, archer would one hit kill with a headshot, melee would give at best 40damage
avarage hit, archer would give +- 1/3th of health damage, 2hander a bit more, but all in all, both will need 3 hits to kill. and archers still got their range and kiting
btw i'm not a 2hander myself, but played it more then enough
and also, we're not asking for reduced damage, but just less advantage to compromise for their range and kiting
Tell that to the melee getting one hit by a throwing lance.What kind of a shit build do you have if a 7pt throwing lancer can onehit you? I can't even onehit most fucking archers with my throwing lance unless I headshot.
try comparing a 7 PD archer with rus bow and bodkin arrows (the oh so great piercing damage) against a 7 PS long/german greatswordK, I'll compare it for you, 2h got 100% accuracy, much better shooting speed, the ability to block while having their main weapon and not a tiny hammer out, armor not making them less accurate, a decent 2h with 7ps can onehit decently heavy armored enemies if he aims his shit right and gets a speed bonus.
on perfect hit, archer would one hit kill with a headshot, melee would give at best 40damage
avarage hit, archer would give +- 1/3th of health damage, 2hander a bit more, but all in all, both will need 3 hits to kill. and archers still got their range and kiting
K, I'll compare it for you, 2h got 100% accuracy, much better shooting speed, the ability to block while having their main weapon and not a tiny hammer out, armor not making them less accurate, a decent 2h with 7ps can onehit decently heavy armored enemies if he aims his shit right and gets a speed bonus.
You're welcome.
It's no fun to run, it's that simple. Archers are compelled to run, not only because of crap melee stats, but also the penalties related to wearing armor makes it incompatible with ranged. Look at native, archers are a lot more likely to stand and fight, because they have the stats and the skills to get the job done, here you only have the skills. It's simply too easy for a melee spammer to kill you if you stand and fight as an archer.I think a lot of archers run because they decided they care more about running than fighting. Athletics is not a required skill in order to use a bow. It's very possible to make a very capable archer/melee hybrid but for whatever reasons most archers choose not to. You don't even need any wpf in melee as just having PS will do. Any archer using a 1 slot bow can very well use a GOOD 1h weapon. Only those with 2 slot bows are forced to use those gimped zero slot 1h.
I think a lot of archers run because the decided they care more about running than fighting. It's very possible to make a very capable archer/melee hybrid but for whatever reasons most archers choose not to. You don't even need any wpf in melee as just having PS will do. Any archer using a 1 slot bow can very well use a GOOD 1h weapon. Only those with 2 slot bows are forced to use those gimped zero slot 1h.
You know you can block melee attacks, right? Only way to block ranged is to have a shield and face the shooter.You know I was being just as onesided and biased as the guy I was replying to 100% intentionally, and eh, dodging ranged is 10 times easier than dodging melee.
Overall I think ranged is fine, it just has a few problems:
1. Damage Variance - Bows either do no damage, or a fuck-ton. I would like to see that brought more towards the middle.
2. Kiting - This makes me cry. It's so annoying chasing a runner. I don't see how that's fun for anyone.
In a 5v5 of 5 infantry versus 5 archers, of course the infantry is going to be at a disadvantage. Archers can hit you before you can hit them... ...and then they can run away and hit you before you hit them again, forever.Archery isn't OP, it's just, at the moment, very gay, nerf kiting, buff ranged.
Athletics is not a required skill in order to use a bow. This It's very possible to make a very capable archer/melee hybrid but for whatever reasons most archers choose not to. This You don't even need any wpf in melee as just having PS will do. Or you could always take 49 wpf for 5 archery wpf... Any archer using a 1 slot bow can very well use a GOOD 1h weapon. Or a greatsword as a fully capable 2h my old friend if they're willing to only have one arrow stack Only those with 2 slot bows are forced to use those gimped zero slot 1h.
Also, if you wanna talk HOW archers can melee you with 50 points in whatever weapons, i can advise you to invest same 50 wpf points and 2-3 PT in throwing and equip wardarts or franciscas or other throwing shit that can help you in archers hunting. Because now all I hear is runting like «Momma, I made stupid, defective buils that can't do anything but right\left swings and run slowly, why I cant oppose another build that can do something else?»Maybe the reason is that 3 PT fransicas and 50 throwing wpf is useless, to inaccurate to hit anything, can't wear armor (my old friendchers can), so, they'll have so laughable accuracy they'll never hit unless they're at facehug range, and then you my old friends would just run further before turning around, so, less damage, little to no ammo, no accuracy, and at worst we'd hit you once and then you'd kite off and turn around and shoot at us again. kiters are as gay as the fucking lancers who refuse to lance an unarmed guy unless they get to lance his butt.
Maybe the reason is that 3 PT fransicas and 50 throwing wpf is useless, to inaccurate to hit anything, can't wear armor (my old friendchers can), so, they'll have so laughable accuracy they'll never hit unless they're at facehug range, and then you my old friends would just run further before turning around, so, less damage, little to no ammo, no accuracy, and at worst we'd hit you once and then you'd kite off and turn around and shoot at us again. kiters are as gay as the fucking lancers who refuse to lance an unarmed guy unless they get to lance his butt.
Why do you think that archers MUST melee with you? They've got RANGE oriented builds.I've been an archer and every time I am I melee with it too. I think the problem is some archers seem to think that unless they can melee 100% as good as a dedicated melee'r then they won't. Well that's never going to happen, so maybe archers should accept that necessary compromise. It doesn't really matter to me if archers choose to run away. All I'm saying is it is not something archers HAVE to do. Yes they've made 'range oriented builds' but it's not necessary to put all their wpf in archery and no PS. They chose to do that.
Also, if you wanna talk HOW archers can melee you with 50 points in whatever weapons, i can advise you to invest same 50 wpf points and 2-3 PT in throwing and equip wardarts or franciscas or other throwing shit that can help you in archers hunting. Because now all I hear is runting like «Momma, I made stupid, defective build that can't do anything but right\left swings and run slowly, why I cant oppose another build that can do something else?»
You are aware that archers can easily dodge projectiles or notice the guy got throwing weapons and just start kiting sooner, right?
Sorry Lichen but your example is just bad build. This is not an archer (lack accuracy, lack damage, lack speed and broken arrows every round, because you've got 56 effective wpf) this is technically gimped 1hander build (5 athletics, no shield and no armor is not best combo too)LOL, it's so easy to find excuses. A 'bad build' huh? 140wpf = lack of accuracy and broken arrows every round? I guess you must have really high accuracy needs. My last archer was 120wpf and finally 130wpf once I was at level 30 and I didn't seem to be unable to hit anything or going broke from arrow upkeep. I like how mentioning 56 effective wpf seems to make it sound so horrible yet the actual numbers are irrelevant. Only their relation to one another is what matters.
Oh sorry, I forgot that «Ideal» archer must just run to nearest enemy and shyly wait for decapitation.Archers can run for an hour and THEN shoot, they don't have to dodge throwing weapons then.
Archers can't dodge and shoot simultaneously. Wait for archer jump or start of aiming animation and throw your shit.
You can even use hunting ot light crossbow for this. with 0 wpf
Sorry Lichen but your example is just bad build. This is not an archer (lack accuracy, lack damage, lack speed and broken arrows every round, because you've got 56 effective wpf) this is technically gimped 1hander build (5 athletics, no shield and no armor is not best combo too)
LOL, it's so easy to find excuses. A 'bad build' huh? 140wpf = lack of accuracy and broken arrows every round? I guess you must have really high accuracy needs. My last archer was 120wpf and finally 130wpf once I was at level 30 and I didn't seem to be unable to hit anything or going broke from arrow upkeep. I like how mentioning 56 effective wpf seems to make it sound so horrible yet isn't that formula in effect for ALL players? So the actual numbers are irrelevant. Only their relation to one another is what matters.
Also the purpose of throwing to prevent kiting is NOT to hit them (awesome if you do), but just to make them fear you enough so that they start dodging sideways. This by itself already slows them down, and if you are lucky enough to hit them, then you catch them most likely due to the stun...If I throw I can't accelerate so they run off anyway, every half decent player dodges by spinning his mouse like crazy, not moving sideways, and even if I hit once or twice they'll lose no hp due to insane negative speed bonus and already low damage and finally the stun will only count to how much it slowed me down throwing, really.
As a 2h (shieldless inf, can be pole as well), not only you are forcing them to dodge, but you dont need to dodge yourself, as they are too busy and can shoot far less often.
Thats the puspose of this sort of throwing, its not accurate, just annoying, and the stun is already enough to make him hate you and look for greener pastures a lot of times.
LOL, it's so easy to find excuses. A 'bad build' huh? 140wpf = lack of accuracy and broken arrows every round? I guess you must have really high accuracy needs. My last archer was 120wpf and finally 130wpf once I was at level 30 and I didn't seem to be unable to hit anything or going broke from arrow upkeep. I like how mentioning 56 effective wpf seems to make it sound so horrible yet the actual numbers are irrelevant. Only their relation to one another is what matters.
So do you want high accuracy, high damage, fast running, cheap to maintain, shield abilities and well armored all in one character? Sounds reasonable..... :rolleyes:
I'll never accept archer with 6 pd and 120 wpf for ANY strategus battle. Also I really doubt that you can win any range duel with such stats. So you can continue to make your «experiments» with broken builds. I don't care, it's you time to spend.I never had 6pd and 120. I did have 9pd and 120 though. If you want to duel ranged yes get higher wpf yet when do archers often do that? Usually they go for infantry. My 'overgimped' build for 'Rambo' playstyle is possible cause I've played it. If an archer wants more power or wpf that's fine but my point was you can be an archer AND melee as well without using running as the main tactic when infantry are close.
All I want from an archer is - good damage output, good rate of fire, good accuracy and decent mobility. This 4 abilities turn archer into good damage dealer. And you propose overgimped build for Rambo playstyle. Such build almost not possible until 33-34 level.
I never had 6pd and 120. I did have 9pd and 120 though. If you want to duel ranged yes get higher wpf yet when do archers often do that? Usually they go for infantry. My 'overgimped' build for 'Rambo' playstyle is possible cause I've played it. If an archer wants more power or wpf that's fine but my point was you can be an archer AND melee as well without using running as the main tactic when infantry are close.
Do you understand that you even do not have 9 effective PD with your build? No? Or such things do not bother your archery effectiveness?I did, I just don't remember the exact wpf. It was over 126wpf when I got to level 30.
also 161archery\49melee is impossible with 7wm and 30 level. But again, who cares about exact info. And 4 athletics is really bad, seriously.The build calc ain't 100% accurate, you can only get 39 2h wpf and 160 archery, checked it on my stf, and lol at you bitching about 4 ath, 4 ath is plenty, fuck I don't even have 4 ath on half my melee chars.
and lol at you bitching about 4 ath, 4 ath is plenty, fuck I don't even have 4 ath on half my melee chars.I don't even have 2 ath on my current melee character (OMG how do I survive!?) I only have 1 ath cause I had a leftover point other wise I'd have zero. Obviously I'm not running from fights. My last archer had ZERO ath and I used a hatchet with 9ps and no wpf (and won vs melee sometimes). I've had high ath characters and no ath characters, low wpf and high wpf. I adapt my playstyle to my build. Yet it seems for some it's nearly impossible for them to do that.
The build calc ain't 100% accurate, you can only get 39 2h wpf and 160 archery, checked it on my stf, and lol at you bitching about 4 ath, 4 ath is plenty, fuck I don't even have 4 ath on half my melee chars.
Sir, archers are allowed to wear a decent amount of armor, believe it or not, and if you want you can take a twoslot weapon instead of two arrow quivers, and, I can perform perfectly fine in cloth, with 6ps, 39 wpf, and a longsword. And as an archer if my aim would be decent I'd pretty much only be fighting damaged enemies.
So, Sir, you propose to worsen already bad effective wpf in archery and melee prof with heavy armor. Cool advice. Got another?No sir, I propose to wear a "Sarranid guard armor" which can currently be worn while being below the 15 "free" ranged weight so it would not matter at all for the ranged part, and about the melee, I can melee decently with 0 wpf, so eh, don't see your problem here.
Perfectly fine = what? 30-3 or 3-3?
With only 15 arrows, there no sense to take a bow and spend 160 wpf and 5 skillpoints on this. It's just pointless
10 "free" ranged weight
10? If I remember correct it was 7.5 since... long time ago
Yes, but it got modified in a recent patch, it's 10 now. With handx3x4 and head x2, if i remember correctly.
Yes yes, i know there's a lot of rage about the rangers and not all of you agree, but here are 2 idea's that should satisfy both groups
-Quivers -> common rangers take 2 quivers = 30 bodkin arrows with them on the battlefield, a bit too much and thats why the spam the hell out of it, so we could decrease the amount of arrows per quiver, for example 10 instead of 15, or increase quiver slots to 2 so that only one quiver can be equiped.
-PD drawback -> rangers, and heirloomed rangers give amazing damage + the fact that they can get headshots, and this they can all do from a great distance! They are Glass-canons, they give avarage to high damage from RANGE, so they should also die easier (note that if melee player is in range, they just have to run), in that light, allowing each Power Draw skill point to decrease amount of hitpoints seems right, more dmg, less health. -> allow each point in PD to decrease Hitpoints by 3.
what do you guys think?
(btw, don't answer with "that's not realistic", we're not here for realism but to have fun, i you want realism, go take a bow in real life and shoot it at things and see how hard it actually is lol)
Ranged is balanced. If you need help check here, I made a guide:
http://forum.meleegaming.com/guides/%28guide%29-how-to-defend-against-archers-xbows-and-not-become-a-statistic/msg378727/#msg378727(click to show/hide)