Balancing ranged

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Oh sorry, I forgot that «Ideal» archer must just run to nearest enemy and shyly wait for decapitation.

Archers can't dodge and shoot simultaneously. Wait for archer jump or start of aiming animation and throw your shit.

You can even use hunting ot light crossbow for this. with 0 wpf


Sorry Lichen but your example is just bad build. This is not an archer (lack accuracy, lack damage, lack speed and broken arrows every round, because you've got 56 effective wpf) this is technically gimped 1hander build (5 athletics, no shield and no armor is not best combo too)

Archers can run for an hour and THEN shoot, they don't have to dodge throwing weapons then.
And I agree, Lichens build was shit, a real none kiting archer build would be more like:
18/21
6ps
6pd
4ath
7wm
161archery wpf
49 2h/1h/pole wpf

Also, you seem to overreact extremely to what we want, I don't mind being shot to death from afar, I would support a buff to accuracy, to damage, to all that shit, what I mind is, once getting to an archer, instead of drawing his melee weapon where he could still fight decently with the build listed above he will instead run, and shot, and kite, and shot, forever, you can't catch 'em due to crutching low armor, no one wants you to suicide every round 'cept maybe Tzar, however, once I dodge all your arrows (if I don't dodge I'll either be 2hit or 3hit in the chest or 1shot in the head) and once I get to you, I would appreciate it if you'd actually be forced to fight me, with a slightly worse build yes, however, due to your arrows if you hit me I'd have lost a large portion of my health.

So, is it that hard to understand that running forever from your enemy, getting out of reach, then shooting at him, then running again, is both plane gay and plane boring?

[Moncho]

LOL, it's so easy to find excuses. A 'bad build' huh? 140wpf = lack of accuracy and broken arrows every round? I guess you must have really high accuracy needs. My last archer was 120wpf and finally 130wpf once I was at level 30 and I didn't seem to be unable to hit anything or going broke from arrow upkeep. I like how mentioning 56 effective wpf seems to make it sound so horrible yet isn't that formula in effect for ALL players? So the actual numbers are irrelevant. Only their relation to one another is what matters.

That formula does NOT affect all players, since only PD (and PT) reduce effective wpf, for melee you only lose the wpf from too much weight, while here it is much higher.
That build is not bad, very similar to mine (15/21, shield instead of IF), and I think you meant 2h wpf instead of 1h?

Also the purpose of throwing to prevent kiting is NOT to hit them (awesome if you do), but just to make them fear you enough so that they start dodging sideways. This by itself already slows them down, and if you are lucky enough to hit them, then you catch them most likely due to the stun...
As a 2h (shieldless inf, can be pole as well), not only you are forcing them to dodge, but you dont need to dodge yourself, as they are too busy and can shoot far less often.
Thats the puspose of this sort of throwing, its not accurate, just annoying, and the stun is already enough to make him hate you and look for greener pastures a lot of times.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Also the purpose of throwing to prevent kiting is NOT to hit them (awesome if you do), but just to make them fear you enough so that they start dodging sideways. This by itself already slows them down, and if you are lucky enough to hit them, then you catch them most likely due to the stun...
As a 2h (shieldless inf, can be pole as well), not only you are forcing them to dodge, but you dont need to dodge yourself, as they are too busy and can shoot far less often.
Thats the puspose of this sort of throwing, its not accurate, just annoying, and the stun is already enough to make him hate you and look for greener pastures a lot of times.

If I throw I can't accelerate so they run off anyway, every half decent player dodges by spinning his mouse like crazy, not moving sideways, and even if I hit once or twice they'll lose no hp due to insane negative speed bonus and already low damage and finally the stun will only count to how much it slowed me down throwing, really.

[Okkam]

LOL, it's so easy to find excuses. A 'bad build' huh? 140wpf = lack of accuracy and broken arrows every round? I guess you must have really high accuracy needs. My last archer was 120wpf and finally 130wpf once I was at level 30 and I didn't seem to be unable to hit anything or going broke from arrow upkeep. I like how mentioning 56 effective wpf seems to make it sound so horrible yet the actual numbers are irrelevant. Only their relation to one another is what matters.

So do you want high accuracy, high damage, fast running, cheap to maintain, shield abilities and well armored all in one character? Sounds reasonable.....

I'll never accept archer with 6 pd and 120 wpf for ANY strategus battle. Also I really doubt that you can win any range duel with such stats. So you can continue to make your «experiments» with broken builds. I don't care, it's you time to spend.

All I want from an archer is - good damage output, good rate of fire, good accuracy and decent mobility.  This 4 abilities turn archer into good damage dealer. And you propose overgimped build for Rambo playstyle. Such build almost not possible until 33-34 level.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

My build had decent damage, average archer wpf amount, 4athletics=decent mobility, so, still waiting for you to point out how bad it sucks and how my arguments are shit.

[Lichen]

I'll never accept archer with 6 pd and 120 wpf for ANY strategus battle. Also I really doubt that you can win any range duel with such stats. So you can continue to make your «experiments» with broken builds. I don't care, it's you time to spend.

All I want from an archer is - good damage output, good rate of fire, good accuracy and decent mobility.  This 4 abilities turn archer into good damage dealer. And you propose overgimped build for Rambo playstyle. Such build almost not possible until 33-34 level.

I never had 6pd and 120. I did have 9pd and 120 though. If you want to duel ranged yes get higher wpf yet when do archers often do that? Usually they go for infantry. My 'overgimped' build for 'Rambo' playstyle is possible cause I've played it. If an archer wants more power or wpf that's fine but my point was you can be an archer AND melee as well without using running as the main tactic when infantry are close.

[Okkam]

I never had 6pd and 120. I did have 9pd and 120 though. If you want to duel ranged yes get higher wpf yet when do archers often do that? Usually they go for infantry. My 'overgimped' build for 'Rambo' playstyle is possible cause I've played it. If an archer wants more power or wpf that's fine but my point was you can be an archer AND melee as well without using running as the main tactic when infantry are close.

Do you understand that you even do not have 9 effective PD with your build? No? Or such things do not bother your archery effectiveness?

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Okkam, still waiting for you to trash my proper archery build...

[Okkam]

your build is better, but tbh 15\21 has no alternative. You'll receive accurate\fast archer with average damage and 80\90 wpf for melee.

also 161archery\49melee is impossible with 7wm and 30 level. But again, who cares about exact info. And 4 athletics is really bad, seriously.

[Lichen]

Do you understand that you even do not have 9 effective PD with your build? No? Or such things do not bother your archery effectiveness?

I did, I just don't remember the exact wpf. It was over 126wpf when I got to level 30.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

also 161archery\49melee is impossible with 7wm and 30 level. But again, who cares about exact info. And 4 athletics is really bad, seriously.

The build calc ain't 100% accurate, you can only get 39 2h wpf and 160 archery, checked it on my stf, and lol at you bitching about 4 ath, 4 ath is plenty, fuck I don't even have 4 ath on half my melee chars.

[Lichen]

and lol at you bitching about 4 ath, 4 ath is plenty, fuck I don't even have 4 ath on half my melee chars.

I don't even have 2 ath on my current melee character (OMG how do I survive!?) I only have 1 ath cause I had a leftover point other wise I'd have zero. Obviously I'm not running from fights. My last archer had ZERO ath and I used a hatchet with 9ps and no wpf (and won vs melee sometimes). I've had high ath characters and no ath characters, low wpf and high wpf.  I adapt my playstyle to my build. Yet it seems for some it's nearly impossible for them to do that.

[Okkam]

The build calc ain't 100% accurate, you can only get 39 2h wpf and 160 archery, checked it on my stf, and lol at you bitching about 4 ath, 4 ath is plenty, fuck I don't even have 4 ath on half my melee chars.

Tell me please, you are running with almost no armor, 3 athletics, 39 wpf in 2h and 1 slot weapon on your mighty melee chars? Good joke, stupid but good.

I can beleive that 33\9 with 65+ armor and something like GLB and 130 wpf in pole can be quite effective instead. But this is absoloutely different story.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Sir, archers are allowed to wear a decent amount of armor, believe it or not, and if you want you can take a twoslot weapon instead of two arrow quivers, and, I can perform perfectly fine in cloth, with 6ps, 39 wpf, and a longsword. And as an archer if my aim would be decent I'd pretty much only be fighting damaged enemies.

[Okkam]

So, Sir, you propose to worsen already bad effective wpf in archery and melee prof with heavy armor.  Cool advice. Got another?

Sir, archers are allowed to wear a decent amount of armor, believe it or not, and if you want you can take a twoslot weapon instead of two arrow quivers, and, I can perform perfectly fine in cloth, with 6ps, 39 wpf, and a longsword. And as an archer if my aim would be decent I'd pretty much only be fighting damaged enemies.

Perfectly fine = what? 30-3 or 3-3?
With only 15 arrows, there no sense to take a bow and spend 160 wpf and 5 skillpoints on this. It's just pointless