Balancing ranged

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Tell that to the melee getting one hit by a throwing lance.

What kind of a shit build do you have if a 7pt throwing lancer can onehit you? I can't even onehit most fucking archers with my throwing lance unless I headshot.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

try comparing a 7 PD archer with rus bow and bodkin arrows (the oh so great piercing damage) against a 7 PS long/german greatsword
on perfect hit, archer would one hit kill with a headshot, melee would give at best 40damage
avarage hit, archer would give +- 1/3th of health damage, 2hander a bit more, but all in all, both will need 3 hits to kill. and archers still got their range and kiting

K, I'll compare it for you, 2h got 100% accuracy, much better shooting speed, the ability to block while having their main weapon and not a tiny hammer out, armor not making them less accurate, a decent 2h with 7ps can onehit decently heavy armored enemies if he aims his shit right and gets a speed bonus.
You're welcome.

[rustyspoon]

K, I'll compare it for you, 2h got 100% accuracy, much better shooting speed, the ability to block while having their main weapon and not a tiny hammer out, armor not making them less accurate, a decent 2h with 7ps can onehit decently heavy armored enemies if he aims his shit right and gets a speed bonus.
You're welcome.

You know you can block melee attacks, right? Only way to block ranged is to have a shield and face the shooter.

Overall I think ranged is fine, it just has a few problems:

1. Damage Variance - Bows either do no damage, or a fuck-ton. I would like to see that brought more towards the middle.
2. Kiting - This makes me cry. It's so annoying chasing a runner. I don't see how that's fun for anyone.

If you have 5 archers vs 5 infantry. Unless they do something dumb, the infantry will never catch the archers. If the archers are smart, they will spread out as the infantry approaches and get them with cross fire. Works even against a team of all shielders. You can only protect the front arc after all.

Because of this, it makes more people choose ranged. People either go archer or bring a crossbow. Then we devolve into two teams hiding behind something and shooting at each other for 5 minutes. That is dumb.

[Adamar]

Exept people can dodge. What really happens in archers vs inf situations if that the archers die and a few of the infs survive, if not more.

[XyNox]

I have yet to meet those "mobile ballista archers" everyone is talking about, who can also run like the wind. My main has 30 body armor, 18 str, 0 if = 53 hp. Arbalest, greatswords and big polearms usually oneshot me or put me down to like 10%. I have never been oneshotted by any archer build so far though with this outfit. Hell I even survive survive headshots every once in while with 14 head armor. A body shot from a bow takes about 20% - 50%.

Sure unlike melees I am either stationary or most likely trying to dodge the arrow so no speed bonus is applied to the damage but please stop this "2 shot in plate" bullshit already. If you could 2 shot plate no archer would ever run away, just be thankful it isnt this way.

The sheer amount of ranged is indeed troublesome in some situations but so is the amount of greatsword str spammers as well. Maybe if we nerf faceroll-greatswords a bit, more people playing ranged now would enjoy melee once again and probably respec.

[CrazyCracka420]

What's with all this archer whine?  Archers have been the hardest hit nerfed class, minus maybe throwing (which should only be a hybrid class anyways, so no sympathy from me there).  Up until it was announced that a new version of strategus was around the corner, there were hardly anyone in the public servers as archers.

I'm sick and tired of people bitching about things being overpowered.  Archers are far from overpowered, if anything they are underpowered.  The only reason they are "OP" is because they are in larger quantities than normal, and people aren't used to worrying about getting shot up. 

For all the people QQ'ing about archers, let's play a little fun game.  Let's pretend you're the Marshal of an army, and you have to decide out of 100 people you lead into this battle, how many of each class you will have.  Wouldn't you want at least 1/4 to 1/3 of your army to be archers or some form of ranged?  Do you think more than 1/3 or 1/4 of the players in the public server are archers? 

I'm sorry that you are going to have to have some battlefield awareness and you can't just hold W until you collide with the enemy infantry horde.  That doesn't mean something is overpowered, it means you need to adapt to the conditions on the battlefield.  Do you really need tips on tactics and strategy in game?  It's okay to admit that, and I'd be more than happy and willing to teach you guys how to combat any situation you encounter on the battlefield.  Stop by Hospitaller teamspeak sometime, I will be on tonight.

In a 5v5 of 5 infantry versus 5 archers, of course the infantry is going to be at a disadvantage.  Archers can hit you before you can hit them...that's the point of archery...every class in the game has strengths and weaknesses, you can't call a class overpowered when you're putting your weaknesses against their strengths.  Get the fuck out of here with all this bullshit.  I still propose you close the forums lest the dev's start listening to all this bitching like they always do.

[Lichen]

It's no fun to run, it's that simple. Archers are compelled to run, not only because of crap melee stats, but also the penalties related to wearing armor makes it incompatible with ranged. Look at native, archers are a lot more likely to stand and fight, because they have the stats and the skills to get the job done, here you only have the skills. It's simply too easy for a melee spammer to kill you if you stand and fight as an archer.

I think a lot of archers run because they decided they care more about running than fighting. Athletics is not a required skill in order to use a bow. It's very possible to make a very capable archer/melee hybrid but for whatever reasons most archers choose not to. You don't even need any wpf in melee as just having PS will do. Any archer using a 1 slot bow can very well use a GOOD 1h weapon. Only those with 2 slot bows are forced to use those gimped zero slot 1h.

[Okkam]

I think a lot of archers run because the decided they care more about running than fighting. It's very possible to make a very capable archer/melee hybrid but for whatever reasons most archers choose not to. You don't even need any wpf in melee as just having PS will do. Any archer using a 1 slot bow can very well use a GOOD 1h weapon. Only those with 2 slot bows are forced to use those gimped zero slot 1h.

I saw sooo many unhonorable horsemans. You know, they do not want to dismount and fight like a man. They even have good backup weapons such as LHB or greatswords. Why do you think that archers MUST melee with you? They've got RANGE oriented builds.

Also, if you wanna talk HOW archers can melee you with 50 points in whatever weapons, i can advise you to invest same 50 wpf points and 2-3 PT in throwing and equip wardarts or franciscas or other throwing shit that can help you in archers hunting. Because now all I hear is runting like «Momma, I made stupid, defective build that can't do anything but right\left swings and run slowly, why I cant oppose another build that can do something else?»

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

You know you can block melee attacks, right? Only way to block ranged is to have a shield and face the shooter.

Overall I think ranged is fine, it just has a few problems:

1. Damage Variance - Bows either do no damage, or a fuck-ton. I would like to see that brought more towards the middle.
2. Kiting - This makes me cry. It's so annoying chasing a runner. I don't see how that's fun for anyone.

You know I was being just as onesided and biased as the guy I was replying to 100% intentionally, and eh, dodging ranged is 10 times easier than dodging melee.

BTW: Kiting is gay, slow those fuckers down.

In a 5v5 of 5 infantry versus 5 archers, of course the infantry is going to be at a disadvantage.  Archers can hit you before you can hit them... ...and then they can run away and hit you before you hit them again, forever.

Archery isn't OP, it's just, at the moment, very gay, nerf kiting, buff ranged.

Athletics is not a required skill in order to use a bow. This It's very possible to make a very capable archer/melee hybrid but for whatever reasons most archers choose not to. This You don't even need any wpf in melee as just having PS will do. Or you could always take 49 wpf for 5 archery wpf... Any archer using a 1 slot bow can very well use a GOOD 1h weapon. Or a greatsword as a fully capable 2h my old friend if they're willing to only have one arrow stack Only those with 2 slot bows are forced to use those gimped zero slot 1h.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Also, if you wanna talk HOW archers can melee you with 50 points in whatever weapons, i can advise you to invest same 50 wpf points and 2-3 PT in throwing and equip wardarts or franciscas or other throwing shit that can help you in archers hunting. Because now all I hear is runting like «Momma, I made stupid, defective buils that can't do anything but right\left swings and run slowly, why I cant oppose another build that can do something else?»

Maybe the reason is that 3 PT fransicas and 50 throwing wpf is useless, to inaccurate to hit anything, can't wear armor (my old friendchers can),  so, they'll have so laughable accuracy they'll never hit unless they're at facehug range, and then you my old friends would just run further before turning around, so, less damage, little to no ammo, no accuracy, and at worst we'd hit you once and then you'd kite off and turn around and shoot at us again. kiters are as gay as the fucking lancers who refuse to lance an unarmed guy unless they get to lance his butt.

[Okkam]

Maybe the reason is that 3 PT fransicas and 50 throwing wpf is useless, to inaccurate to hit anything, can't wear armor (my old friendchers can),  so, they'll have so laughable accuracy they'll never hit unless they're at facehug range, and then you my old friends would just run further before turning around, so, less damage, little to no ammo, no accuracy, and at worst we'd hit you once and then you'd kite off and turn around and shoot at us again. kiters are as gay as the fucking lancers who refuse to lance an unarmed guy unless they get to lance his butt.

At first - wardarts will help you a lot when you trying to catch someone running from you. Even with 2 pt and 50 wpf. All you need ia stun. So please do not throw more shit here. Or you already imagine that you'll headshot plated chargers over map with wardarts and 50 wpf? Pity, dissaponting eh?

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

You are aware that archers can easily dodge projectiles or notice the guy got throwing weapons and just start kiting sooner, right?

[Lichen]

Why do you think that archers MUST melee with you? They've got RANGE oriented builds.

Also, if you wanna talk HOW archers can melee you with 50 points in whatever weapons, i can advise you to invest same 50 wpf points and 2-3 PT in throwing and equip wardarts or franciscas or other throwing shit that can help you in archers hunting. Because now all I hear is runting like «Momma, I made stupid, defective build that can't do anything but right\left swings and run slowly, why I cant oppose another build that can do something else?»

I've been an archer and every time I am I melee with it too. I think the problem is some archers seem to think that unless they can melee 100% as good as a dedicated melee'r then they won't. Well that's never going to happen, so maybe archers should accept that necessary compromise. It doesn't really matter to me if archers choose to run away. All I'm saying is it is not something archers HAVE to do. Yes they've made 'range oriented builds' but it's not necessary to put all their wpf in archery and no PS. They chose to do that.


Here's what archers COULD do:

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    Strength: 18
    Agility: 18
    Hit points: 65

    Skills to attributes: 2

    Ironflesh: 6
    Power Strike: 6
    Shield: 0
    Athletics: 5
    Riding: 0
    Horse Archery: 0
    Power Draw: 6
    Power Throw: 0
    Weapon Master: 6

    One Handed: 91
    Two Handed: 1
    Polearm: 1
    Archery: 140
    Crossbow: 1
    Throwing: 1

But I know there will be SOME excuse as to why they can't.

[Okkam]

You are aware that archers can easily dodge projectiles or notice the guy got throwing weapons and just start kiting sooner, right?

Oh sorry, I forgot that «Ideal» archer must just run to nearest enemy and shyly wait for decapitation.

Archers can't dodge and shoot simultaneously. Wait for archer jump or start of aiming animation and throw your shit.

You can even use hunting ot light crossbow for this. with 0 wpf


Sorry Lichen but your example is just bad build. This is not an archer (lack accuracy, lack damage, lack speed and broken arrows every round, because you've got 56 effective wpf) this is technically gimped 1hander build (5 athletics, no shield and no armor is not best combo too)

[Lichen]

Sorry Lichen but your example is just bad build. This is not an archer (lack accuracy, lack damage, lack speed and broken arrows every round, because you've got 56 effective wpf) this is technically gimped 1hander build (5 athletics, no shield and no armor is not best combo too)

LOL, it's so easy to find excuses. A 'bad build' huh? 140wpf = lack of accuracy and broken arrows every round? I guess you must have really high accuracy needs. My last archer was 120wpf and finally 130wpf once I was at level 30 and I didn't seem to be unable to hit anything or going broke from arrow upkeep. I like how mentioning 56 effective wpf seems to make it sound so horrible yet the actual numbers are irrelevant. Only their relation to one another is what matters.

So do you want high accuracy, high damage, fast running, cheap to maintain, shield abilities and well armored all in one character? Sounds reasonable.....