cRPG

cRPG => Announcements => Topic started by: chadz on August 05, 2012, 04:13:11 pm

Title: New version: 0.287
Post by: chadz on August 05, 2012, 04:13:11 pm
The only real change of this is the introduction of the scoreboard. Most of the early blatant issues were fixed, so now it's a design question:

Do you feel it's accurate? If not, why not? If you don't like it, please tell why so we can fix it.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Belenos on August 05, 2012, 04:15:19 pm
some long speudo hide the score in the scoreboard :?

(why not show in the chat when we win or loose point)?
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Elio on August 05, 2012, 04:16:51 pm
I love it, peasants are finaly rewarded !

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 (http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/7932/2012085160715amjhms.jpg)
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Werfried on August 05, 2012, 04:17:48 pm
I think the new score system is awesome.
It may not be perfect, but it reflects the contribution of a player to the team (like killing horses, hitting the big evil guy in the enemy team 3 times but not kill him, ...) better then the old one with only the k:d ratio.

+10  :D
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: TurmoilTom on August 05, 2012, 04:20:01 pm
I have to admit that even for me, someone who thinks that the game gets continually worse over time... that this is a good thing. Bravo devs, bravo.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: _Tak_ on August 05, 2012, 04:20:14 pm
Please fixed the auto couch and revert it back to manual couch please, it's killing all the pro cav players by noobs!
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: bosco on August 05, 2012, 04:20:18 pm
Could you explain what the new score system is actually about, for those of us who still consider re-installing the mod?
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Para on August 05, 2012, 04:21:32 pm
Reposting this:

I like the new system, it's definitely a step in the right direction.

The biggest flaw of the system right now is that overkill damage is calculated. Couches generate insane amounts of points because the score is calculated by the total damage done in a single attack instead of how much hp the other player loses. Fix this and we will see much more accurate scoreboards.

Also this system seems to have been engineered specifically for battle. I would like to see points granted for flag capture and denial in siege. Some points for busting shields would be nice too.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: dodnet on August 05, 2012, 04:21:39 pm
I like the new system. You now get point by damage done not by kills. And most important: horses (with riders) do count now!

You do get a heavy negative score with THs btw... I hit Oberyn's horse (ofc intentionally  :mrgreen:) and got -12 points for that. That might even be too much, as one hit to a teammates horse counts same than two kills of an enemy.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Blackbow on August 05, 2012, 04:25:23 pm
please fix instant couched lance !!

about scoreboard imo it's look accurate
maybe now please try to work on an auto balance by banner who use the score

just please try to find a way for split all cavs, range, shielders... in both teams
we rly need a better auto balance
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: bonekuukkeli on August 05, 2012, 04:26:03 pm
Reposting this:

I like the new system, it's definitely a step in the right direction.

The biggest flaw of the system right now is that overkill damage is calculated. Couches generate insane amounts of points because the score is calculated by the total damage done in a single attack instead of how much hp the other player loses. Fix this and we will see much more accurate scoreboards.


This. Otherwise I love it! Finally I don't need to rage so much when I hit many enemies during round but someone else finishes them.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Teeth on August 05, 2012, 04:27:19 pm
Because horses have a lot of hitpoints, killing a horse from full hp gives you 10 points or more, while killing the rider only gives 6 or something. Horse kills should not give more points than player kills, so please scale the horse hitpoints/points.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Fips on August 05, 2012, 04:28:23 pm
Awesome!
Only thing i dislike, if you shoot or hit dismounted horses you still get points/penalty!
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: dodnet on August 05, 2012, 04:29:18 pm
Because horses have a lot of hitpoints, killing a horse from full hp gives you 10 points or more, while killing the rider only gives 6 or something. Horse kills should not give more points than player kills, so please scale the horse hitpoints/points.

Yeah, noticed that too... horses give often more points than a rider, which is kinda stupid.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Arrowblood on August 05, 2012, 04:32:23 pm
I cant see my name cos of the score, so i change it back.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: chadz on August 05, 2012, 04:32:42 pm
Most of your opinions are outdated ;)

check the server and report back
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Gurnisson on August 05, 2012, 04:33:29 pm
Most of your opinions are outdated ;)

check the server and report back

What an active poster you have become. Hell, you were even in-game. :lol:
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Blackbow on August 05, 2012, 04:38:10 pm
lets start the e-penis contest !!!
http://forum.meleegaming.com/general-discussion/your-best-score-!!!-%28-e-penis-constet%29/
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could be cool if u had some stats on char page on website like :
- best score
- total of score did in all gen
- average of score by round / map

it could be cool too if u can add your score in main hud not only via press tab and check scoreboard
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Mendro on August 05, 2012, 04:42:34 pm
Yeah, noticed that too... horses give often more points than a rider, which is kinda stupid.

Agree. Jarids at medium/long range:
2 Points if I hits the horseman
4 Points if I hits the horse
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Doppel on August 05, 2012, 04:45:46 pm
I hope the score system will replace the multipler soon  :)
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: bonekuukkeli on August 05, 2012, 04:48:21 pm
Because horses have a lot of hitpoints, killing a horse from full hp gives you 10 points or more, while killing the rider only gives 6 or something. Horse kills should not give more points than player kills, so please scale the horse hitpoints/points.

I think it's because moving horse gives quite huge speed bonus. My friend was getting big score bonus just by stopping horses with spear. If score is mostly calculated from damage dealt, horse running to pike will deal huge damage just like couche that is currently broken (overkill damage is calculated for score). And horses often don't have that much armour, so they take more damage than even medium-armoured rider.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Aderyn on August 05, 2012, 04:48:50 pm
I hate horses. Killing horses should give more points. Why? Because they are op.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: BattalGazi on August 05, 2012, 04:50:15 pm
I'm quite new to the system but, is this score closely related with valor or multiplier? If so, can we assume that horse archers might receive valor with this? If this is also true, then I'll be glad and start praising chadz. Otherwise, no chance...
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Leshma on August 05, 2012, 04:51:24 pm
chadz, couching is still broken.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: dodnet on August 05, 2012, 04:55:10 pm
What is that autocouching shit? Was cav not strong enough?
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Cosmos_Shielder on August 05, 2012, 04:58:01 pm
The auto couching thing is perfect. Maybe we could just leave it for the great lance who needed to be really buffed
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: karasu on August 05, 2012, 05:05:31 pm
Balance is borked. Just had a Siege map with 25 defenders vs 35 attackers made of greys and co. The whole map.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Blackbow on August 05, 2012, 05:07:29 pm
about long name in scoreboard
can u maybe try to reorganize the board a bit like this :

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Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Rebelyell on August 05, 2012, 05:09:58 pm
point system is  :twisted:retarded :twisted: because:
it gives you points after damage, but only dead enemy is not dangerous.
I like to see situation when you gets points after you victim death.

It will prevent situation when we have guy who have made lot of damage and no one of hes victims died
also assists would be nice to.

It will be balance kills/points

Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Elmuri on August 05, 2012, 05:18:42 pm
Quote
Could I have option to hide scores and sort players out by kills as it used to be? I dont need any scores and I dont care about it
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Molly on August 05, 2012, 05:24:52 pm

If you dont care about it and dont need it, just ignore it...
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Teeth on August 05, 2012, 05:25:19 pm
So whats next? Score based xp? Would be awesome but the system would have to be perfect.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Elmuri on August 05, 2012, 05:28:30 pm
If you dont care about it and dont need it, just ignore it...
I can't ignore it because I want to check peoples KDR and now it shows the players in scoreboard in wrong order.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: _Tak_ on August 05, 2012, 05:30:24 pm
Nerf Cav, still too OP
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Elmuri on August 05, 2012, 05:39:18 pm
If you dont care about it and dont need it, just ignore it...
Really I would like to have these scores instantly removed, but that aint gonna happen. So I only want an visual option for haters
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Mathijs on August 05, 2012, 05:41:11 pm
archer scores dont make sense,  12 kills, 58 points? I don 't  killsteal the whole time, yet get just 3 poitns per hit?
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Osiris on August 05, 2012, 05:45:28 pm
guess your not doing a lot of damage
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: OttomanSniper on August 05, 2012, 05:46:31 pm
total damage is best for score system.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Overdriven on August 05, 2012, 05:54:45 pm
Total damage is the best way I think. It gives a fair representation of who is technically useful for the team. Love the horse damage as well that's a great addition.

Basically this has to be my favourite update for a very very long time.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Arrowblood on August 05, 2012, 05:55:14 pm
archer scores dont make sense,  12 kills, 58 points? I don 't  killsteal the whole time, yet get just 3 poitns per hit?
Longbow.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Para on August 05, 2012, 05:58:25 pm
As far as I can tell without extensive testing:

Score is based off of damage dealt and proximity to kills. If you are near a team mate as they land a killing blow, you siphon off a portion of their points. I'm not sure on the exact distance for this.

If the devs would be so kind as to give us the exact formula, it would help us give a more precise suggestion on what to tweak. Although I don't think that will happen =(.

EDIT: Trying to figure out the kill proximity thing. It doesn't seem to work anymore unless it was taken out in one of the hotfixes. It's hard to experiment without a few people to help out.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Bazinga on August 05, 2012, 06:07:16 pm
Great Patch. I love the Score system.

Just a few minor tweaks towards Horsies and their beloved lancing. I've seen some cav' getting around 30 - 40 Points couching someone. A little bit over the top, if you ask me. :)

/Edit: Haven't tried out the Hotfix, maybe its adjusted already.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Raubgraf on August 05, 2012, 06:12:44 pm
Very good patch!
Finally trying to be supportive as cav is being rewarded (instead of teambump-killsteal-style)
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Warni on August 05, 2012, 06:21:18 pm
The scoreboard is a nice new feature!
This was something that I missed in the game.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Quentry on August 05, 2012, 06:40:52 pm
I think that scose is a good one, but it should be more balanced :|
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Peasant_Woman on August 05, 2012, 06:41:32 pm
This has been much requested. Great job!  :)
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Leshma on August 05, 2012, 07:07:37 pm
Score system isn't bad but I must request one little tweak. Cavalry usually gets most points, change it so that proximity kills worth more than cav/ranged kills please.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Apostata on August 05, 2012, 07:19:00 pm
mod is an outrage (and dead too).


P.S  after playing:

REMOVE AUTO LANCE COUCHING CRAP FROM MY LANCER!
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Gloin on August 05, 2012, 07:19:50 pm
Archers and cavalries usally get best scores.10 1 infantry got worse score then 7 3 cavalries.

Silly make kills more valuable
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Mlekce on August 05, 2012, 07:22:10 pm
i don't like the change,old system was easier.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Patoson on August 05, 2012, 07:26:58 pm
It is one of the best things ever done for this mod. Well done! And thank you!
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: IR_Kuoin on August 05, 2012, 07:35:50 pm
Score system mess with my eyes.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Micah on August 05, 2012, 07:39:56 pm
Scoreboards are somewhat paradox in a whole

They are good for directing the gameplay (tendencies)
- in a k/d based scoreboard game many players will obviously become frag hunters. With complex score formular , the gameplay can be changed to somewhat complex behavior of players
- Up to a point where teamwork, tactical gameplay , supporting and certain playstyles can be injected by simply changing the score formular in a rewarding/penalizing way.

Sadly i believe  thats totally wrong
the more sophisticated the score formular gets, the more problems arise
- Loss of free choice of playstyle. There will always be playstyles that are not supported by the current score formular, thus certain playstyles will be disencouraged.
- Score formular may be rejected from playerbase. Disagreement on how its calculated will cause endless discussions and flamewars, possibly polarizing the community.
- Also the mere point that the formular will become to complex to follow can render the system useless quickly.

From an abstract PoV its also impossible to positively map good playstyle and teamwork to a determined score number, rendering this tool useless from a certain point. Not even referring to a possible disagreement about the way the formular works.
The worst scenario would be to connect XP/Gold gain to the scoreboard formular since in this case all the problems will rise exponentially with the complexity of the score formular.

As consequence i must say , that - even though i love the tendency to reward supporting playstyles - it is a wrong way to go, its potential is very small, it will propably cause more harm than fun :(

The ideal freedom in playstyle is without any scoreboard trying to "quantify" playerskills. Only as a "informative" sheet to build tactics upon it would make sense.
Like displaying : amount of Cav/Ranged/Melee in the opponent and the own team.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Leshma on August 05, 2012, 07:45:34 pm
Increase point penalty for teamhits :wink:
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Juhanius on August 05, 2012, 07:52:45 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIfOjkB17BA
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Molly on August 05, 2012, 08:02:37 pm
Scoreboard is nice. Maybe some finetuning but overall it's important to finally reward player who focus on killing/stopping horses instead of lone wolfs, peasant hunters and killstealers *points finger at Leshma*

I agree that it needs some work considering the point distribution.

Going back to the old K/D board would be sad. Ideally no scoreboard and only a K/D on the char site could be the best solution but again all the 2h heroes, lone wolfs, peasant hunters and killstealers *points finger at Leshma again* would probably run storm against it.

Give the whole thing some time and everybody will just adjust. Like always...
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on August 05, 2012, 08:04:25 pm
Micah has a point. How accurately can a single number symbolize a players contribution to his or her team's victory? On one side of the spectrum, you could say the scoreboard is unnecessary, and that the victory will speak for itself. Players have eyes, and will note the helpfulness of a teammate without reference to a statistic.

But this is a competitive game, and we've all got penises to wave around.

On the other hand, you could do your damnedest to make a single "score" statistic representative of the player's contribution to victory. "Score" could be a very complicated, magical formula that includes damage, number of kills, proximity to kills, number of hits, TK/TW, hitting enemies who were in the process of hitting teammates, and strategic positioning (near flags or gatehouse in siege).

I think it's impossible to make a "perfect", all encompassing score. But how are we to reward players fairly with xp/gold? How are we to judge them?!? How are we to waggle the e-penises?
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: SHinOCk on August 05, 2012, 08:15:41 pm
Score isnt a bad thing but i think theres a lot of tweaks to be made beofre we get the exp based on it (if thats the plan) because from what ive seen so far with throwers making 130 pts by just killing horses with a 2-7 score everybody is going to go hybrid thrower and the game will start sucking big time.

Also i think the actual killing blow should give more exp w/e the health the dude has because we all know you dont need to be full health to kill 2-3 person in a round
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Michael on August 05, 2012, 08:18:41 pm
Please fixed the auto couch and revert it back to manual couch please, it's killing all the pro cav players by noobs!

Not everyone who thinks he is pro is really pro you know?

When a lancer cant deal with an incoming couch attack its still a long way to go for him to become 'pro'.


Score system isn't bad but I must request one little tweak. Cavalry usually gets most points,

This might look like it from footmans point of view but its a bit more complicated than you think my little apprentice (also answer the pm I have sent to you, will you?)
It is true, I had a relatively high score  with only a few kills, but this comes because I work a lot for the team. So does Royans, Oberyn and other cav-players who just dont play for themselves (raping the enemy spawn and hunting peasants). I mean when I dehorse enemys top cav, injure some more and give some assists to footmen, I think I deserve those points.
Because those three horsemen I dehorsed would have been a menace to the infantry, right?
Also, when I charge enemy cav I always go a very high risk. When I fail, its usually an instant kill for my guy, so my score is 0. ZERO. You know.
So when you want cav-players to charge enemys cav,
when you want rangers to shoot enemy cav, you have to hand out bonusses for killing horses etc. 

Quote
change it so that proximity kills worth more than cav/ranged kills please.

With proximity you mean melee infantry? Why would we want that? Stick with the mob and slash someone in the back, gank and the like are the cheapest kills anyway, so I dont see why they would deserve another bonus.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Bjarky on August 05, 2012, 08:34:45 pm
omg, DTV servers dont like this patch, u got lots server warnings, each time someone dies, script, code etc.
gonna make bugreport.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on August 05, 2012, 08:36:11 pm
I really dig the score system. Only beef with it is it is a bit cluttered and aesthetically unpleasing...but I don't think there is a feasible solution for that.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Ganner on August 05, 2012, 08:53:31 pm
QUESTION DEVS:

Is it intentional or unintentional that after the round tks/tws are counted in the score?

If its not, can it be fixed?  (yea i know, realllllly low priority item)
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Bjarky on August 05, 2012, 09:05:18 pm
DTV bug report:  http://bugtracker.c-rpg.net/view.php?id=431
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: RiPLeY_II on August 05, 2012, 09:19:18 pm
I don't like it.

Scoreboards are just an e-penis grow formula. They are when they are simple, they are when they are complicated...

Now you have a "difficult" formula that evidently favors one class, whose e-penises have grown in one day. There will be tweaks and then another class will have their own e-penises grown.

At last we will reach a point where "someone" (guess who) will decide it is balanced ... though it's not, so everything will be the same as always, but with a lot of unnecesary work in between ...

My advice: leave e-penises as they are ... after all, they are electronic ...
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Inglorious on August 05, 2012, 09:24:41 pm
I like it. Infantry support is now much more rewarding!

In game chat has some interesting thoughts about the score system. The people who active seek out those pesky cavalry are doing well, while the peasant hunters are wondering why thier solo spam and 10/1 ratios are not making them top dog anymore.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Leshma on August 05, 2012, 09:24:46 pm
I don't mind it atm. But this will affect XP and gold gain in the future and to be honest, I don't like how it works.

Edit: If you're thinking to replace multi with this and considering wipe because of it, in that case I wish you good luck because I don't think majority will appreciate it.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Micah on August 05, 2012, 09:46:30 pm
i hope its not neccessary to explain why the formular has to be made public .... it would just make no sense if oracle formular
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Zildjan on August 05, 2012, 09:49:30 pm
That's really the only difference?  Feels to me like I can now use any weapon without speed penalty for low WPF.  Maybe it's just me...
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 05, 2012, 10:13:02 pm
BUG: Taking fall damage lowers your score.
it counts as team damage, to yourself.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Micah on August 05, 2012, 10:16:21 pm
BUG: Taking fall damage lowers your score.
it counts as team damage, to yourself.
taking falldamage is silly enough to justify  -score xD
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: TugBoat on August 05, 2012, 10:32:20 pm
I think it's pretty accurate so far, although I think that the proximity thing may not be so accurate. I got three points earlier for being around a team fight that I didn't hit anyone in. Sure I was supporting my team and effected team movements but I didnt feel useful enough to get three points.

Also I thinkt aht archers should be penalized extra for hitting team mates, and get a few more points for hitting enemies. Hitting enemies with arrows is extremely useful and since they wont get proximity bonus they need some sort of incentive. Also hitting allies most times is a result of simple greed and bad choices.

That being said I think it's done a remarkable good job. I notice people doing a lot of killing doing very well, but often i see support people having far many more points than someone with more kills than them, because they are poking with polearms or something or assisting the people doing the killing and doing a lot of damage. I think it's nice.

It's always frustrating when I would run into a big group with a morningstar, whack five of them doing a lot of damage, but get no kills and hve nothing to show for it! I think it's a very good start towards and accurate assist/points system! Thank you CMP and chadz and anyone else who helped with this!

But please don't neglect NA servers with the updates, especially NA 2. I know you all favor EU and that's fine, but NA is here too dont forget us!
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Molly on August 05, 2012, 10:34:31 pm
Why is everyone talking about score points being related to xp/gold gain. Afaik there hasn't been any statement which would justify such a conclusion.
And yes, it would be silly to base that of the score points, I agree. It's nice for all those people who actually shoot at cav or other rangers as a reward in the e-peen contest. To base progression of the character upon this isn't the way to go and I am sure the devs have something else in mind. Something smarter.

Just relax and wait  :?
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Leshma on August 05, 2012, 10:48:24 pm
Because both chadz & cmp said numerous times that multi will be replaced with a new system. I guess this is the new system they were talking about.

2. Change the multi system
Yes, the multi system is silly. I have no trouble admitting that :]

It makes you stop playing when you drop to x1, and it forces you to continue playing when you have x5. 

Therefore, we'll change the system to something that rewards personal skill and risk more. It will be, among other factors, proximity based, as we had in the early versions of cRPG. It will definately not be purely kill based, we don't want to reward fraghunters over teamplayers. It will also not reward proximity leechers. You can expect this change soon.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Kafein on August 05, 2012, 10:53:32 pm
Why is everyone talking about score points being related to xp/gold gain. Afaik there hasn't been any statement which would justify such a conclusion.
And yes, it would be silly to base that of the score points, I agree. It's nice for all those people who actually shoot at cav or other rangers as a reward in the e-peen contest. To base progression of the character upon this isn't the way to go and I am sure the devs have something else in mind. Something smarter.

Just relax and wait  :?

Tbh basing progression on how your team does sounds good but it extensively proved to be bad for the game's atmosphere. Shifting the rewards on a more individual level would not feel unjust like the multi system.


Btw, what is this auto lance couching everyone is speaking about ? Is it only working on EU_1 ?
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: //saxon on August 05, 2012, 10:59:28 pm
its awesome! I love it. I love how it shows who is the most team player

now we need a total score counter on the site. and a leader boards for total scores.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Bulzur on August 05, 2012, 11:13:13 pm
I like to be able to see who cares about ennemy horses, who's the poor guy always getting killstealed, and who are the pro kill stealer. It's very interesting.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Tavuk_Bey on August 05, 2012, 11:14:57 pm
it's funny to see that person who kills me when im on full hp gets only 1 point lol

btw i've played like 1 hour today and lost 12k to repair, did you increase the repair frequencies or today wasn't my lucky day?
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Micah on August 05, 2012, 11:16:41 pm
its awesome! I love it. I love how it shows who is the most team player
its awesome, but its not showing who is the best teamplayer :|

Quote
now we need a total score counter on the site. and a leader boards for total scores.
ranking system ( AKA leader board), yes pls !
BUT using this score system for measuring ladder system only? GAWD BEWARE, PLS NOO ! Its way to small approach for a ranking system imho , must include deserved reputation of the player , otherwise its nothing else than just another epeen meter with no meaning and depth at all (you could as well use k/d ratio) .. and those epeen leaders should be  representants of the community ? NEVER, not as long as i am here at least :(
BTW: Consider that noone (but some devs) know anything about the formular... it might be anything .. you dont know either .. and you just say "HELL YEAAH" like that ? =(
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Jarlek on August 05, 2012, 11:23:47 pm
I really enjoy it. Especially since I hit a lot of different enemies 1 or 2 times, only to have them finished off by an ally.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Silveredge on August 05, 2012, 11:26:43 pm
Pretty cool system, one thing though, i lost over 20 points when a teammate rode in front of me point blank, shooting his horse and not killing it with my crossbow.

EDIT: I'm guessing its because it was a headshot and horses dont have much armor.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Matey on August 05, 2012, 11:53:14 pm
seems like cav get 5x more points than anyone else. other than cav getting way more points than they deserve (spawning a horse should be -10 points each round) it seems ok.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Slamz on August 05, 2012, 11:58:09 pm
Agree. Jarids at medium/long range:
2 Points if I hits the horseman
4 Points if I hits the horse

You didn't say what horse or what the horseman was wearing.

You'll do a lot more damage to a 22 armor champion courser than you will to a 55+ armor loomed rider.

If it's based on damage then it's probably working correctly.


Glad to see horse damage being rewarded though.  There have been matches where I killed virtually the entire enemy horse brigade and got no credit for it because someone else always killed the downed rider.


Did valor get moved to a point based system?  Might be nice to get valor once in a while even if no kills were had.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 05, 2012, 11:59:21 pm
i'm usually top of my team, 90% time in top 5 as an archer. Always land so many hits as one and not as many kills, so this shows how much of an effect they've been having.
idk, I don't think there is a problem with cav being overpowered for points like you say matey.

However: overkill damage from couches and such gives tons of points? or is that fixed yet?
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: JasonPastman on August 06, 2012, 12:01:14 am
Raise the point penalty for tw/tking.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Leshma on August 06, 2012, 12:17:49 am
And, if possible, convert taken damage from teammates into points you earn for the same amount of points deducted from teammater's score.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: woody on August 06, 2012, 12:45:11 am
A few additions for siege would be good. A few suggestions:

Presence at flag when capped
Preventing cap by being there as def
Lowering flag as att
Raising flag as def
Killing attacker at flag when def and vica versa
Defender first open of a gate - only the first to avoid open shut etc

Intention would be to reward fighting at flag and capturing flag which I think wins siege rounds and not building huge k/d killing peasants outside castle when good players and clans will be near flag.


Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Teeth on August 06, 2012, 12:58:16 am
And, if possible, convert taken damage from teammates into points you earn for the same amount of points deducted from teammater's score.
Might lead to griefing.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Turboflex on August 06, 2012, 12:58:38 am
I dunno if people have suggested this but makes points per hit and kill based on combination of:

target's score + target's lvl + target's gear value (listed in order of importance).

this way you get more reward for killing harder targets and not just raw damage to peasants.

Also Im sure people have mentioned, but points from horse hits need to be nerfed, and also points from damage needs to be capped to match target's HP so you get rid of the situation where lancers get a billion points for doing 100 couch damage.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: callahan9119 on August 06, 2012, 01:41:22 am
Raise the point penalty for tw/tking.

I agree, there are few things more dangerous in this game than a fast enemy peasant  running near you when there are teammates around.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Akynos on August 06, 2012, 01:53:00 am
I don''t know what to think of the new score system. It looks bugged to me. On too many occasions has the scoring been suspicious that
I doubt that it is balanced. Sometimes I kill a guy all by myself and all I get is a miserable point, whereas I see people with a score five times
inferior to me pull out scores double of mine. Sure, they might contribute more than I think, but come on...I've got 30 strength, if I kill 9 players,
how can someone kill two and have double my score? He dealt twice my damage? I have difficulty understanding this.

As others said, having the formula would help with the tweaks. Don't get me wrong, im for a score system, but like everything new, it needs to be balanced.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Crazyi on August 06, 2012, 02:08:02 am
If the system was designed to give you score according to your KDR, then there would be no point to it. Play with your team and you might be surprised.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Silveredge on August 06, 2012, 02:26:39 am
This.

I see people with 0 / 0 having 30 score when I with 3 kills / 0 deaths have 10. lol.

You guys don't understand, if you hit a guy 3 times, then some teammate takes the kill, you kill a horse and hit the rider on the ground then a teammate takes the kill, etc etc etc...  You're still getting the score for all the contribution you made.  You guys are concentrating on "who got the last hit".
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Akynos on August 06, 2012, 02:45:30 am
What we mean is, taking account the fact that one might score damage but not score the critical blow, the difference in score is nonetheless unrealistic.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Nehvar on August 06, 2012, 03:02:59 am
Nah, we understand pretty well actually.

It´s just the raw numbers and high difference, how a guy with 0 kills can have double or triple the points of a guy with 3 kills. Just that.

Because the guy with zero kills has substantially outdamaged the guy with three kills.  How is that not fair?
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Akynos on August 06, 2012, 03:24:26 am
because sometimes its unrealistic. Why can't you grasp that? Lets exagerate so you can understand: Mr J killed 100 people, he has a score of 1000. I kill 20 people, I got a score of 2000. That means that I produced DOUBLE the damage but I killed only a fifth of his kills. Unless I especially aim to NOT kill anyone, this type of score is simply impossible.. This means that damage is not the only main factor, which means that other
variants are taken in, which means that it will advantage some players over others.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Jarlek on August 06, 2012, 04:06:59 am
because sometimes its unrealistic. Why can't you grasp that? Lets exagerate so you can understand: Mr J killed 100 people, he has a score of 1000. I kill 20 people, I got a score of 2000. That means that I produced DOUBLE the damage but I killed only a fifth of his kills. Unless I especially aim to NOT kill anyone, this type of score is simply impossible.. This means that damage is not the only main factor, which means that other
variants are taken in, which means that it will advantage some players over others.
Mr. J killed 100 unarmoured people, he has a score of 1000. I kill 20 people in armour, I got a score of 2000.

Please tell me why Mr. J should have more points then me?

Also include hitting people so they are stunned and your teammate kills them, hitting people who then you or they run away, shooting an arrow or a bolt into an enemy who then later gets one-hit killed in melee, piking a horse so it rears then have a mauler buddy kill the horse and rider. All of these are really good for your team. Let it be shown on the scoreboard.

I retired right before this update and since EU_5 was empty, I went to EU_1 and have been running around with a light crossbow, stunning people right before my ally hits. Whenever I end up in melee I hit the enemy 5+ times before they die, but mostly I get in 3 or 4 before an ally comes and backstabs/take over and kills them. Please tell me why I shouldn't get a score for doing this? Am I not helping out the team? If killing a lot of enemies isn't good enough for you because the score doesn't show a high enough number, then why not just focus on the kills then? Why give a crap about the score? Oh, right. You want to wave your e-peen around.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: seddrik on August 06, 2012, 04:40:52 am
You already got benefited by helping.  You get the multi.  Now... its just a mess of numbers.    If u wanna put a list of total damage, fine.  But dont change the list priority based on that.  Leave the kills as the order of the list.  Thatll make more sense to people imo.

Also, did this patch affect WPF or maybe lag?  I have a 154 wpf thrower.  It was hard enough before due to nerfs to use accurately, but now its even worse.  I can waste 23 axes and they just miss miss miss.  And just forget throwing lances... I'm already so sick of it I dont even wanna play the game again.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 06, 2012, 04:44:30 am
If u wanna put a list of total damage, fine.  But dont change the list priority based on that.  Leave the kills as the order of the list.

I personally like seeing it ordered based on the score, as if you are a "killer" then you should be up there anyways.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: SHinOCk on August 06, 2012, 05:22:44 am
I think the killing blow need to be accorded more importance. Even if the dude was black barred and you ''stole'' the kill as some would say, because in the end, even if i get damaged by some dude for 75%, as long as he dont kill me, i still can kill 2-3 people before i die. Looking at it like that, i think it makes sense that the dude that took the last 25% of my like gets a bit more points because now that i am dead, i cannot go around and still fuck people up.

my 2 cents
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: //saxon on August 06, 2012, 05:27:56 am
i was on siege earlier today and i had a score of 33kills 9deaths and i was below someone with a score of 10kills 4deaths.

i think this system is just boss. now kills really do mean NOTHING!

people might actually start contributing to the team now.

and no i must have team-hit like maybe twice and my score was lower than his.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: MrShine on August 06, 2012, 05:29:09 am
I think the killing blow need to be accorded more importance. Even if the dude was black barred and you ''stole'' the kill as some would say, because in the end, even if i get damaged by some dude for 75%, as long as he dont kill me, i still can kill 2-3 people before i die. Looking at it like that, i think it makes sense that the dude that took the last 25% of my like gets a bit more points because now that i am dead, i cannot go around and still fuck people up.

my 2 cents

I agree killing blow should have some sort of additional point bonus, regardless of how minimal the damage was. An enemy with 1% hp remaining can do just as much damage as an enemy with 100% hp remaining.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Tydeus on August 06, 2012, 06:01:25 am
Not sure if the scoreboard adds additional points for rearing a horse, rather than just killing it, but it should, especially if the rider or the horse itself dies because of it. Same with chain hitting an enemy to directly cause his death. If you're the first to hit in a chain of hits that causes the enemies death, you should get additional points as without your hit, he likely would have died in a completely different way. The first hit is the most important in many situations like these two, but it is the least beneficial, score-wise it seems.

Also, this:
I agree killing blow should have some sort of additional point bonus, regardless of how minimal the damage was. An enemy with 1% hp remaining can do just as much damage as an enemy with 100% hp remaining.

Maybe don't do this for siege as kills are naturally less important, but for battle, ultimately they're all that matter. Battle is entirely about killing the opposite team so getting the finishing blow on someone is directly completing a mission objective.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Nehvar on August 06, 2012, 06:18:40 am
Not sure if the scoreboard adds additional points for rearing a horse, rather than just killing it, but it should, especially if the rider or the horse itself dies because of it. Same with chain hitting an enemy to directly cause his death. If you're the first to hit in a chain of hits that causes the enemies death, you should get additional points as without your hit, he likely would have died in a completely different way. The first hit is the most important in many situations like these two, but it is the least beneficial, score-wise it seems.

Since this new feature is in its infancy right now the equation is probably pretty simple.  I'd definitely like to see some conditions for bonus points added to it so I'm with you in that regard.  In siege, for example, it would be nice if we got bonus points for being on the flag as it goes down (or up if defending).

because sometimes its unrealistic. Why can't you grasp that? Lets exagerate so you can understand: Mr J killed 100 people, he has a score of 1000. I kill 20 people, I got a score of 2000. That means that I produced DOUBLE the damage but I killed only a fifth of his kills. Unless I especially aim to NOT kill anyone, this type of score is simply impossible.. This means that damage is not the only main factor, which means that other
variants are taken in, which means that it will advantage some players over others.

Wow.  You're needlessly offensive; and not worth my time.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: mandible/splinteryourjaw on August 06, 2012, 06:32:59 am
Also I thinkt aht archers should be penalized extra for hitting team mates, and get a few more points for hitting enemies. Hitting enemies with arrows is extremely useful and since they wont get proximity bonus they need some sort of incentive. Also hitting allies most times is a result of simple greed and bad choices.

You would be amazed at how many tw/tk by archers/xbows are due to the actions of the person that gets tw/tk;

1.  walking in front of a drawn bow/aimed xbow
2.  arrows are so slow you shoot and your teammate actually runs into the path of your arrow
3.  your aiming and a teammate runs from the side of a building into your arrow's/bolt's path
4.  you get 2 arrows in a guy and then your teammate runs up to get the killshot just as you release your arrow

there are so may things that happen during the "fog of war" that the archer can't control.  I had a guy get really mad because I teamwounded him.  I was across the town and had shot a xbower (who was on a wall) twice.  I aimed the arrow at his head and released once more.  Just as I did a teammate jumped down from a higher wall and killed the player right as my arrow reached its target (and instead hit the teammate in the back.)  I was penalized for the hit (reported) but how could I predict the actions of the other guy.  My path was clear to shoot when I released.

You are not going to get a perfect system, unless you just do away with scores altogether and let people play.  Scores do take some fun out, but they also keep us playing in a well regulated way; rather than just a free-for-all.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: dodnet on August 06, 2012, 08:02:12 am
The system is fine, it just needs some finetuning. I do heavy damage to enemies, esp. to cav by downing their horses and hitting the rider on the ground but often I don't get the final blow on them because if they have a shield my lance is almost useless against them. So if someone kills them after he does get only a small reward because most of the work was done by me. And my work is shown on the board. If I kill some enemy from behind, that was pinned down by a few of my teammates for some time already, I only get a small reward because they did most of the work already. I find that fair.

Also archers are rewarded now. I wasn't surprised to see Tiborur (or some similar name) on top of the board even higher than Chase. I watched him a few times in the past and he did much damage to different target while getting only few kills. He (and others ofc) deserve it.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Molly on August 06, 2012, 08:28:33 am
The system is fine, it just needs some finetuning. I do heavy damage to enemies, esp. to cav by downing their horses and hitting the rider on the ground but often I don't get the final blow on them because if they have a shield my lance is almost useless against them. So if someone kills them after he does get only a small reward because most of the work was done by me. And my work is shown on the board. If I kill some enemy from behind, that was pinned down by a few of my teammates for some time already, I only get a small reward because they did most of the work already. I find that fair.

Also archers are rewarded now. I wasn't surprised to see Tiborur (or some similar name) on top of the board even higher than Chase. I watched him a few times in the past and he did much damage to different target while getting only few kills. He (and others ofc) deserve it.
Yea, Shokothing (can't remember the name completely) is a really hard hitting archer and when spectating him, you'll see that he isnt desperately going for the kill but shoots at the best opportunity, hitting a lot of different people. Wonder if all the 2h-heroes realize that it's not them being uber-stronk but it's due to a lot of team support that they're 1-hitting their targets...
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: v/onMega on August 06, 2012, 08:36:05 am
Schokoshugi...thats how his nick starts.

Havent tested it, but seems to be a good change.
Killing blows are important and shouldnt be meaningless.

Though, damaging a lot surely paves the way to killing.

Once this system is balanced...it ll be a good display of how much a player is worth...(in all aspects).

Ppl. with good k/d can now even outdamage everybody....NEW CHALLANGES TO SHINE....nomnomnom
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Silveredge on August 06, 2012, 08:37:47 am
because sometimes its unrealistic. Why can't you grasp that? Lets exagerate so you can understand: Mr J killed 100 people, he has a score of 1000. I kill 20 people, I got a score of 2000. That means that I produced DOUBLE the damage but I killed only a fifth of his kills. Unless I especially aim to NOT kill anyone, this type of score is simply impossible.. This means that damage is not the only main factor, which means that other
variants are taken in, which means that it will advantage some players over others.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: chadz on August 06, 2012, 09:19:22 am
it's funny to see that person who kills me when im on full hp gets only 1 point lol

This actually sounds like a bug, maybe the last blow doesn't count at all. Would also explain some other strange results. Can someone test?

Oh and the formula is no secret, will post it soon.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Overdriven on August 06, 2012, 09:20:27 am
Nah, we understand pretty well actually.

It´s just the raw numbers and high difference, how a guy with 0 kills can have double or triple the points of a guy with 3 kills. Just that.

I've been getting a score of 70 or higher with 0 kills. As an HA I fire off at many targets, dealing a decent amount of damage without ever getting a kill. It's perfectly possible that someone with 0 kills can get plenty of damage.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: DaveUKR on August 06, 2012, 09:25:40 am
I suggest (if it is possible to implement without tons of hours to code):

Damage to horse should give 1/2 points in comparison to players (you'll get more points if you shoot in the horse rather than a player).
Kills should give points, but not a lot. I suggest 4 points for killing a player, 2 points for killing a horse.
Headshots should give some bonuses, 2 points for a headshot is a small gift but it motivates to aim better.
Proximity should be rebalanced, I believe I made some headshots for 0 points? That motivates me to shotgun.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Nihtgenga on August 06, 2012, 09:34:47 am
well what I found strange was that shooting a horse rider (the rider, not the horse) at full speed with a xbow only giving 1-2 points.

feels like it should give more because its sort of difficult ;-)
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Winterly on August 06, 2012, 09:37:25 am
Haven't had time to review all the pages, but couching a friendly horse reduces points by 20ish points.  Not sure if intended. When multiple cavalry barrel down the last guy, point less is pretty significant (as useless as they are).
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Fips on August 06, 2012, 11:24:54 am
Hm, yesterday i shot 3 people with my horn bow down all by myself (1 headshot, 1 guy needed 2 arrows, the other one 3) and i killed another one with my sickle in melee, who was probably already hit. But all i got was 7 points, that felt kinda wrong...
Well, i bought a Mw Long Bow today, maybe that'll change my score a little.  =)
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: dodnet on August 06, 2012, 11:32:37 am
Headshots should give some bonuses, 2 points for a headshot is a small gift but it motivates to aim better.

No! Headshots are oneshots with a bonus damage most of the time already. They shouldn't give extra points.

4 points for a kill seems way too much. Most have around 60-70 health, so you would get 6 or 7 points if you kill them alone. The guy who kills someone with only 1 health left shouldnt get so many points. I would give 1-2 point for a kill and maybe 1 for a horse kill as additional bonus (+ the points per damage). That should be enough.

I believe I got around 4-6 points for a killing blow (inf, polearm).
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Cup1d on August 06, 2012, 11:39:36 am
I'm wrong or Gate\doors destruction in siege mode counts too?
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: DaveUKR on August 06, 2012, 11:42:03 am
No! Headshots are oneshots with a bonus damage most of the time already. They shouldn't give extra points.

4 points for a kill seems way too much. Most have around 60-70 health, so you would get 6 or 7 points if you kill them alone. The guy who kills someone with only 1 health left shouldnt get so many points. I would give 1-2 point for a kill and maybe 1 for a horse kill as additional bonus. That should be enough.

I believe I got around 4-6 points for a killing blow (inf, polearm).

It doesn't matter for my crossbow: 1 hp or 50. Kills should be rewarded. I.e. I have 2 targets: archer who has no hp, he's kiting far away from me and killing my teammates one by one and a peasant with full hp at 10 meters. This system forces me to kill a peasant for a better reward rather than save my team. Do you find fair that I make a headshot to a tincan who had 9 hp and I get 0 points?
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Molly on August 06, 2012, 11:46:22 am
It doesn't matter for my crossbow: 1 hp or 50. Kills should be rewarded. I.e. I have 2 targets: archer who has no hp, he's kiting far away from me and killing my teammates one by one and a peasant with full hp at 10 meters. This system forces me to kill a peasant for a better reward rather than save my team. Do you find fair that I make a headshot to a tincan who had 9 hp and I get 0 points?
If you feel forced to go for a kill instead of helping your team just by a score, you are an idiot anyway.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: chadz on August 06, 2012, 11:48:14 am
The idea of the score system is however to encourage the right thing and represent a player's worth as good as possible, so we'll consider many things on how to improve. For starters, hitting a tincan shouldn't be rewarded less than hitting a peasant, for example :)
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: [ptx] on August 06, 2012, 11:50:19 am
Hitting destructible doors and gates in siege should give a (small) reward as well as capping the flag.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: DaveUKR on August 06, 2012, 12:00:16 pm
If you feel forced to go for a kill instead of helping your team just by a score, you are an idiot anyway.

The multiplier system will be gone and you'll see how many such idiots there are. I don't care about score and most of my kills are save kills, so don't bother to accuse me of being bad teamplayer. The problem is that currently it doesn't reward longshots (while in Native they're rewarded), it doesn't reward kills and doesn't reward headshots. It's still better to shoot in the horse than in the horseman scorewise.

Score should be something that will reward for doing good and right things. I think that after some working on it - it will be awesome. Thanks to chadz for that.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Vibe on August 06, 2012, 12:06:19 pm
Few things the scoring system should consider:

- level difference
- gear difference (killing a can in peasant gear = more points)
- killing blows should grant an extra point(s), it still is better than just damaging
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: dodnet on August 06, 2012, 12:06:26 pm
If you choose your target only by score, you really are an idiot. If the game encourages that, so everyone only plays to get the highest score we are definitely on the wrong way.

Personally I'm ok with the multi system and don't think its a good idea to bind that to a score. I get a fairly good score, so I'm not against it because it would hurt me, but it might encourage everyone to choose targets only on the points they give and thats a really bad idea.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Grumbs on August 06, 2012, 12:16:38 pm
The score will never accurately represent someone's worth. It can only encourage and give a slight reward to people who would get nothing before. It can't have any sense of the circumstance for the kill, whether you're in a clutch situation, whether anyone converts damage into kills or not (damage without a kill is fairly pointless), will you lose more points for team killing your top player, even if he isn't quite performing at his best atm but could be reliable in a clutch? Do you get points for destroying shields, or making them weaker? Points for kicks that guarantee a kill for a team mate? Points for a weak hit that interrupts the player for your team mate who then kills him?

You just shouldn't take points too seriously, just do what you think is best to win the round. That is why personally I think multipliers based on team wins is a very sound reward system. It takes everything that happened in the round and rewards everyone for the team effort. Making it more personal may result in people playing less for the team and more for looking good on the score board.

Maybe the score should be only visible at the end of the map, or still order by KPD. But if they put too much emphasis on it by rewarding people with more xp/gold for their score you can guarentee people will try to farm points rather than do whats best for the team.

I would much prefer people didn't take score seriously though, rewarding people based on their score may make that difficult tho
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Leshma on August 06, 2012, 12:25:37 pm
Hitting destructible doors and gates in siege should give a (small) reward as well as capping the flag.

Also bashing on shields should give some points too. Killing kinngrimm isn't that easy, if I manage to break his shield I deserve some award for it.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Ganner on August 06, 2012, 12:28:00 pm
QUESTION DEVS:

Is it intentional or unintentional that after the round tks/tws are counted in the score?

If its not, can it be fixed?  (yea i know, realllllly low priority item)

!
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Molly on August 06, 2012, 12:42:32 pm
You can't take every single action into consideration for points. Smashing Kinngrimms shield is nice but hasn't done anything to really help the team yet. You'll get points  for hitting Kinngrimm himself afterwards. Same for siege shields... it would get way too complex if you would go that way, rewarding every tiny little thing.

Hitting a player = points, hitting a horse with rider = points

Doesn't need anything else than that. The tricky part is the contribution of points based on those 2 factors.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Akynos on August 06, 2012, 12:51:23 pm
As we see, the score still needs to be tweaked to truly reflect contribution. To me, it seems like people who actually kill the guys are
not rewarded as they should be right now, even while considering that they may not have delivered the most damage.




Wow.  You're needlessly offensive; and not worth my time.

I'm sorry if that seemed offensive, it was not my intention. I just want to get my point across that I think, based on in-game experience,
that the score system does not yet fully reflect contribution.

Anyway, I'd still like to thank the team for it, because even as unbalanced as it is now, it is a very nice new feature to have. It is fair that
people should be rewarded for their contribution rather than for their kills. Now make it work properly :D
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Tovi on August 06, 2012, 01:11:17 pm
As a regular thrower, I kill a lot of horses. It's nice to have some rewards for my little contribution to victory. But I use to play only to makes my team win and to get a good multiplier. I do not specially look for glory or to grow my e-penis.
So, actually, scoring is cool but not my goal. It won't change my gameplay.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: dodnet on August 06, 2012, 01:12:37 pm
Also bashing on shields should give some points too. Killing kinngrimm isn't that easy, if I manage to break his shield I deserve some award for it.

Well there should be a limit to this... and this might also be exploitable: put someone of your friends into enemyteam, bring a shitload of shields and just hit these shields over and over again. Whats with 13 shield skill btw? Unlimited points?
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Molly on August 06, 2012, 01:20:20 pm
As a regular thrower, I kill a lot of horses. It's nice to have some rewards for my little contribution to victory. But I use to play only to makes my team win and to get a good multiplier. I do not specially look for glory or to grow my e-penis.
So, actually, scoring is cool but not my goal. It won't change my gameplay.
You, good Sir, are probably one of the few exceptions.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Akynos on August 06, 2012, 01:28:40 pm
actually you never feel like complaining about it when you've got 5 kills less than the best player, yet you top the scoreboard :D
But you've got to be honest and see that maybe all you did was to dehorse a guy a swing at a headarmorless guy.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Kafein on August 06, 2012, 01:39:57 pm
I think cav and ranged people get big scores because they have the best opportunities for dealing damage to squishy flesh, aka horses.

Horses have lots of HP and most of those used have very light armor, which means you get a lot of points for each succesfull hit.

I also think kills should be more important. When you deal with 4 enemies, it's a lot better to kill one rather than damage all of them, even for double the amount of damage you needed to kill the first guy.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: dodnet on August 06, 2012, 01:52:32 pm
Example: Guy1 fights against an enemy1 for an amount of time, hits him a few times and hurts him severly (10% hp left). Guy2 jumps in from the back, hits enemy1 and kills him. Why should Guy2 get many points for this? All the work was done by Guy1.

Watching some of the top scores over time you'll notice thats exactly what they do. Let the battle run for a while and come to the battle when all enemies are hurt by the teammates that hit them in first place to get easy kills.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Leshma on August 06, 2012, 01:55:23 pm
There should definitely be some ladder based on k/d and w/l which will be used to determine value of individual player. Levels aren't good way to determine that because there are high level people who are way easier to kill than many level 30 players.

Btw. killing blow never gives more than 3 points. I think it's 2 points most of the time.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Gurnisson on August 06, 2012, 01:56:23 pm
Example: Guy1 fights against an enemy1 for an amount of time, hits him a few times and hurts him severly (10% hp left). Guy2 jumps in from the back, hits enemy1 and kills him. Why should Guy2 get many points for this? All the work was done by Guy1.

Let's say guy 2 didn't come to help. Enemy has 10 % left, kills guy 1, and then move on to kill 4 more people on the other team before finally going down, turning the battle in their favour.

So, how much those 90 % help when there was still 10 % missing?
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Micah on August 06, 2012, 01:57:16 pm
(click to show/hide)
- opponent players score

(click to show/hide)
I want to +100 you but i cant  :(
Good teamplay is often to NOT deal most damage or any at all
(click to show/hide)
Real good battle behavior and teamplay can never be rewarded by points ...
 but will forever stay in the memory of the other players you helped (hopefully)  - and the memory of the tricked opponent ofc xD

Score should never direct playstyle !!!because it is not able to!!! , just being a little rewarding at times is the only thing it can be good for. To many players tend to play for score which is silly in many ways .
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: dodnet on August 06, 2012, 02:02:00 pm
Let's say guy 2 didn't come to help. Enemy has 10 % left, kills guy 1, and then move on to kill 4 more people on the other team before finally going down, turning the battle in their favour.

So, how much those 90 % help when there was still 10 % missing?

Lets hope guy2 is still around at this point  :mrgreen:

What I tried to say: I still want guy2 go in to help, but he shouldn't get too many points for the final kill as this will again lead to killstealing. If everyone is so eager about the score, why would they try to attack an enemy, thats not wounded if they get more (and easier) points for killing than for hurting him in first place.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: dodnet on August 06, 2012, 02:03:57 pm
- opponent players score

Where does that score come from? From the current scoreboard? So if you kill Chase in the first round, you get 10 points, if you kill him in the 5. round you get 100 points? No!
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Leshma on August 06, 2012, 02:04:33 pm
As I already said, as epeen contest this is working just fine. But basing XP and gold gain on score will have negative effects on teamplay. And many people will be pissed off.

At first I was thinking how it would hurt me but then I thought about it and I came to conclusion that at 200 million XP and 8 million gold in bank I really shouldn't care about gold or XP.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: dodnet on August 06, 2012, 02:06:32 pm
At first I was thinking how it would hurt me but then I thought about it and I came to conclusion that at 200 million XP and 8 million gold in bank I really shouldn't care about gold or XP.

Respec 10 times, give me all your money and you can care about it again  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Leshma on August 06, 2012, 02:09:09 pm
I won't give anything to anyone anymore. Earn it yourself.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Gurnisson on August 06, 2012, 02:13:49 pm
I won't give anything to anyone anymore.

(click to show/hide)

 :lol:
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Micah on August 06, 2012, 02:14:39 pm
Where does that score come from? From the current scoreboard? So if you kill Chase in the first round, you get 10 points, if you kill him in the 5. round you get 100 points? No!
I didnt get your argument if there was any, sorry.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: dodnet on August 06, 2012, 02:15:12 pm
I won't give anything to anyone anymore. Earn it yourself.

I was just kidding, I don't need your money, earned enough on my own  8-)
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: dodnet on August 06, 2012, 02:18:52 pm
- opponent players score

I didnt get your argument if there was any, sorry.

Score gets reset on each round. So in the first round guy1 has score 0 and for his kill you get 10 points. If guy1 increases its score during the next rounds, and you kill him then, you would get more points? Thats how I understood your suggestion...
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Leshma on August 06, 2012, 02:22:25 pm
I was just kidding, I don't need your money, earned enough on my own  8-)

Sorry DoD but I don't find those kind of jokes amusing anymore, not after "Wipe it all" thread.

Seems that this community thinks I'm a genuine asshole so maybe it's time to start acting like one. That will include everything that's not against the rules.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Vibe on August 06, 2012, 02:25:14 pm
Seems that this community thinks I'm a genuine asshole so maybe it's time to start acting like one.

So what were you acting like until now?
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Turboflex on August 06, 2012, 04:02:17 pm
Example: Guy1 fights against an enemy1 for an amount of time, hits him a few times and hurts him severly (10% hp left). Guy2 jumps in from the back, hits enemy1 and kills him. Why should Guy2 get many points for this? All the work was done by Guy1.

Watching some of the top scores over time you'll notice thats exactly what they do. Let the battle run for a while and come to the battle when all enemies are hurt by the teammates that hit them in first place to get easy kills.

As others mentioned, if guy1 lost because guy2 didn't help, and then the enemy1 went on a rampage, it could cost the team a win. Finishing people off is important, kills from behind are important too, cuz it's really hard to kill top players from the front.

If guy1 had the enemy1 down to 10%, he would have already picked up 5-7 points during the fight. One of the glitches right now is that a finishing blow seems to be calculated on raw damage, it's not capped by the target's actual HP, so guy2 would get like 5 points for landing a big blow, when he really should just be getting 1-2 points for finishing the remaining HP, and then maybe another 1-2 points for a kill bonus (This is why lancers get so many points still, cuz they get massive scores for doing a 150hp damage couch attack on an archer). So guy1 picks up 5-7 for doing the hard work, and guy2 picks up 2-4 points for the important kill blow.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: zDevilBox on August 06, 2012, 04:11:14 pm
After this patch appeared lags
Many peeole tp, behind my back  :mad:
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: dodnet on August 06, 2012, 04:13:43 pm
If guy1 had the enemy1 down to 10%, he would have already picked up 5-7 points during the fight. One of the glitches right now is that a finishing blow seems to be calculated on raw damage, it's not capped by the target's actual HP, so guy2 would get like 5 points for landing a big blow, when he really should just be getting 1-2 points for finishing the remaining HP, and then maybe another 1-2 points for a kill bonus (This is why lancers get so many points still, cuz they get massive scores for doing a 150hp damage couch attack on an archer). So guy1 picks up 5-7 for doing the hard work, and guy2 picks up 2-4 points for the important kill blow.

As I said before I'm OK with this. The bonus for finishing just shouldn't be too high. 1-2 is ok, but 4 is too much as it's only a bonus to the actual damage done.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Elindor on August 06, 2012, 04:19:19 pm
I like it overall, but can you tell us how it works chadz?  We could probably give better feedback if we knew more how it worked.  Like generally how things are rewarded/penalized?  Don't need exact numbers per say, just an overview.

Also, in siege are there rewards for capping flag or opening/closing gates?  Pushing siege tower?
Not sure if that is even possible but would be cool for objective based gameplay being rewarded.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Molly on August 06, 2012, 04:22:41 pm
I don't see a reason for a kill bonus tbh but I guess the 2h heroes need something to finally shut up ;)

Just make it 2 points or something and the same as ranged headshot. Killing blow is killing blow, no matter from how far away it was done.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Micah on August 06, 2012, 05:11:54 pm
Score should be so that k/d becomes neglectable and can simply be skipped imho ... Since  that guy with most damage dealt to enemies most propably has  good k/d its basically unnessessary to track k/d.
Nevertheless , if score mainly based on damage dealt it would still favor high damage/dps classes over supporting classes. Im not sure if thats good or bad...
Possibly solveable by including the plain <HIT> amount plus the <DAMAGE> dealt into consideratioin..
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Grumbs on August 06, 2012, 05:25:23 pm
I'd rather we had less emphasis on personal score and more on simply rewarding the team as a whole. Its nice to pick some people out as good performers, but I don't think it should go into too much detail. The more detail we add the more we will see how much is still missing. I say keep it simple and reward team players as a whole by rewarding the whole team for a win. Then maybe have some MVP's, or something similar to the valour system for good performers.

Team work is a very dynamic concept, you can't really account for even 1% of it with some score system. The more its developed, the more emphasis is put on it the more people will just find different ways to farm points rather than do whats actually in the team's best interests.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Micah on August 06, 2012, 05:40:42 pm
I'd rather we had less emphasis on personal score and more on simply rewarding the team as a whole. Its nice to pick some people out as good performers, but I don't think it should go into too much detail. The more detail we add the more we will see how much is still missing. I say keep it simple and reward team players as a whole by rewarding the whole team for a win. Then maybe have some MVP's, or something similar to the valour system for good performers.

Team work is a very dynamic concept, you can't really account for even 1% of it with some score system. The more its developed, the more emphasis is put on it the more people will just find different ways to farm points rather than do whats actually in the team's best interests.
+1
agreed, as i mentioned in my previous posts...
yet , since scorepoints are there now , we have to deal with the situation for the moment and make it as much usefull as possible ...
One of the bad scenarios for the system would be that its intention (the idea to reward teamplay and supporting ) would be simply ignored due its to "miraculous" or inappreaciated character (to complex or so). This would render its intention to improver teamwork due rewarding ineffective.
"code is law"~lessig
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Nehvar on August 06, 2012, 05:45:02 pm
This actually sounds like a bug, maybe the last blow doesn't count at all. Would also explain some other strange results. Can someone test?

Oh and the formula is no secret, will post it soon.

It seems like this might be the case.  In DTV last night I noticed that my score at one point was a fair bit lower than a teammate with substantially less kills.  We were both infantry with myself generally killing bots in one hit and he taking several.  The bots killed by both parties were the bots agro'd to us individually so his higher score could not be explained by assists.  In that light it certainly looks like the final blow counts for less than it should.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Zandieer on August 06, 2012, 06:02:14 pm
- opponent players score
I want to +100 you but i cant  :(
Good teamplay is often to NOT deal most damage or any at all
(click to show/hide)
Real good battle behavior and teamplay can never be rewarded by points ...
 but will forever stay in the memory of the other players you helped (hopefully)  - and the memory of the tricked opponent ofc xD

Score should never direct playstyle !!!because it is not able to!!! , just being a little rewarding at times is the only thing it can be good for. To many players tend to play for score which is silly in many ways .

One of my favorite things to do is to take a shield and block that nasty 2hand trying to to spam my friends, not even once trying to hit him. That way, people can freely hit him without me hitting my friends, I just block his weapon. Tho, it sometimes DOES mess peoples hits when I'm on the way, but sometimes it's better than him killing everyone.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Butan on August 06, 2012, 07:25:19 pm
Score system is OK but damaging horses should award less points than hitting players.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: karasu on August 06, 2012, 07:28:12 pm
Honestly I don't care about scoreboard, other than to see if any clan mate is online too.

What scares me the most, is the upcoming shitstorm if the xp / gold gain will be related to this system.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Micah on August 06, 2012, 07:33:07 pm
Score system is OK but damaging horses should award less points than hitting players.
if horses would deal less damage this might be reasonable...

Edit:
Honestly I don't care about scoreboard, other than to see if any clan mate is online too.
Lies!

Quote
What scares me the most, is the upcoming shitstorm if the xp / gold gain will be related to this system.
True
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Penitent on August 06, 2012, 07:42:50 pm
I love the score system.  I'd adjust a few things however.

I think a kill should be worth significantly more points than an assist.  No, not because people who get lots of kills should be at the top....but because killing an enemy helps the team a LOT more than hitting him.  I can have 3 hps left and still slaughter many players.

Slightly less points for hitting horses.  Yes, its a great help to hit and kill horses...but I think more points should be awarded for actually hitting and killing players rather than ruining their "equipment."

Maybe points for damaging and breaking shields? 

Overall, really nice change.  it is awesome!  Good job to all involved.

Now, please add the "dead bodies absorb damage" patch to the NA seige server.  Please.
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: Blackbow on August 06, 2012, 07:53:32 pm
Few things the scoring system should consider:

- level difference
- gear difference (killing a can in peasant gear = more points)
- killing blows should grant an extra point(s), it still is better than just damaging

agree with that !!!


Seems that this community thinks I'm a genuine asshole so maybe it's time to start acting like one. That will include everything that's not against the rules.

like i said u was cool in past what happend to you ?
maybe u need a small break ???!!!
Title: Re: New version: 0.287
Post by: chadz on August 06, 2012, 08:09:59 pm
algorythm here:
http://forum.meleegaming.com/general-discussion/adjust-the-new-scoresystem-slightly-feedback/msg573046/#msg573046

locking this thread for a few hours so the discussion moves there :)