cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Corwin on July 27, 2012, 12:23:45 pm

Title: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Corwin on July 27, 2012, 12:23:45 pm
After a long time, I respeced, picked up MW arbalest and MW steel bolts from clan's armory and started once again playing as crossbowman.

The first thing I noticed was that I can't kill shit anymore. In average, it takes 4-5 bolts (shot at different players, not one person) that actually hit something to make a kill. MW Arbalest + MW steel bolts don't one shot anything anymore, except some archers, that is if they are not too far away. I am not counting head shots, because you can kill with headshots while using ordinary crossbow which reloads almost twice as fast.

I thought the whole point of having a weapon that takes ages to reload like arbalest was that it can actually one shot most players? User gets punished by reloading forever, being completely exposed while doing so, having to make his shots count and being unable to carry anything good as a side weapon. But, if it can't one shot even an archer IMO it's not worth it anymore. It seems much more reasonable to pick up crossbow, pack up greatsword or 1h+ shield with it. Because you WILL kill most of archers if you shot them twice with crossbow. Not to mention that they can fire 5-6 shots while you are reloading your precious arbalest. Multiply that by two, since you have to shot them twice and you get the picture.

Not to mention all those situations when a guy in light kuyak or heraldic mail sees you and charges you. You shot him poin blank, maybe take away half his health and then better grab that side arm. Because shooting a guy point blank with the most powerful crossbow in game just isn't enough.

So, I am asking, is this working as intended? Did arbalest get a little overnerfed?
Or am I completely off, or just having a bad luck streak the whole day yesterday?


Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Rhekimos on July 27, 2012, 12:26:50 pm
4-5 hits to kill? You must have been shooting at people who just look alike.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Corwin on July 27, 2012, 12:27:35 pm
4-5 hits to kill? You must have been shooting at people who just look alike.

4-5 hits to different people before you get lucky to get a kill.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Paul on July 27, 2012, 12:28:31 pm
Hitting limbs will result in a damage decrease.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Adamar on July 27, 2012, 12:29:07 pm
Limb damage sucks now. It shouldn't take more than 2 shots to the chest to kill medium armored infantry.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Corwin on July 27, 2012, 12:30:16 pm
Limb damage sucks now. It shouldn't take more than 2 shots to the chest to kill medium armored infantry.

IMO that's one shot too many, if they are close.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Zerran on July 27, 2012, 12:31:37 pm
I've been using an unloomed Heavy Crossbow and unloomed steel bolts recently for fun. It never takes more than 4 shots to kill people, and most people only take 2-3 shots. Not sure who you've been shooting at, but I can't believe they're taking 5 shots with that setup. 4 maybe if they have fully loomed heavy armor and tons of IF, but that should only be a tiny percentage of the population.

One shotting with body shots at range is just not balanced on anything but very lightly armored targets, even with the reload time of the arbalest.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Corwin on July 27, 2012, 12:32:49 pm
They are not taking 5 shots. It takes me to fire (and hit) 4-5 shots at different people before I score a kill. On average. Or that was my impression.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Zerran on July 27, 2012, 12:34:32 pm
They are not taking 5 shots. It takes me to fire (and hit) 4-5 shots at different people before I score a kill. On average. Or that was my impression.

Ooooh k that makes a lot more sense. Probably just hitting a bunch of people at full health. Bad luck I'd say.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Corwin on July 27, 2012, 12:38:48 pm
Dear warlord, with the time it takes to reload arbalest, only God knows where the guy will be when bolt is ready again.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Zerran on July 27, 2012, 12:42:05 pm
Dear warlord, with the time it takes to reload arbalest, only God knows where the guy will be when bolt is ready again.

This is exactly why I decided against the arbalest and went for the Heavy XBow.  :lol:
You get that first hit off, and by the time the second is ready that guy is either already dead, has run away, or has killed off all your allies.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Miwiw on July 27, 2012, 12:45:15 pm
Actually, judging the time it takes to reload the Arbalest and the accuracy, I always saw the Arbalest, especially when loomed, as a headshot weapon and would use it as one.
It is more a sniping weapon than one for doing body shots. Also don't forget it is pierce damage, only good against plate. Or rather saying, a high STR/IF guy will laugh at you while he wears light armor. :)
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 27, 2012, 12:49:15 pm
Throwing lance needs a buff before the arbalest.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Rhekimos on July 27, 2012, 12:49:33 pm
Actually, judging the time it takes to reload the Arbalest and the accuracy, I always saw the Arbalest, especially when loomed, as a headshot weapon and would use it as one.
It is more a sniping weapon than one for doing body shots. Also don't forget it is pierce damage, only good against plate. Or rather saying, a high STR/IF guy will laugh at you while he wears light armor. :)

Everything ranged should always go for headshots now anyhow.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Adamar on July 27, 2012, 12:56:21 pm
Throwing lance needs a buff before the arbalest.

Not so long as it keeps headshooting me from medium range.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 27, 2012, 12:57:50 pm
Not so long as it keeps headshooting me from medium range.
inb4 you claim that's impossible with an arbalest.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Adamar on July 27, 2012, 02:06:56 pm
Did I?
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Zerran on July 27, 2012, 02:19:02 pm
inb4 you claim that's impossible with an arbalest.

It's definitely possible with an arb, but with an arb you get 1 shot and then have to reload. With throwing you can just try again and again until you're out of ammo.

xbows and bows are at a very good point balance wise, throwing... not so much. It's not that it gets tons of kills or anything, it's that there's so little you can do against it.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 27, 2012, 03:14:03 pm
It's definitely possible with an arb, but with an arb you get 1 shot and then have to reload. With throwing you can just try again and again until you're out of ammo.

xbows and bows are at a very good point balance wise, throwing... not so much. It's not that it gets tons of kills or anything, it's that there's so little you can do against it.
arbs got better accuracy, more damage, more ammo, flatter flying curve, and less requirements, and lawl at you claiming there is little you can do against throwing.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: korppis on July 27, 2012, 03:35:57 pm
And this is why I'd love to see more detailed score than just plain K/D. MW arbalest with MW bolts hurts like hell, without fully loomed gear I'd get 1 shot, but now it only takes 70-90% off my health with one bolt. It may not always give epic scores since it's slow to reload and leads to having to shoot different target next time, but it helps team a lot. But, bottom line is; you shouldn't stare at kill score too much.  :)
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Zerran on July 27, 2012, 03:44:16 pm
arbs got better accuracy, more damage, more ammo, flatter flying curve, and less requirements

Agreed of course, but with arb you just have to dodge that 1 shot. Unless you have to deal with allies, they won't likely get another. With throwing they can easily get 4-5 shots before you can reach them. I'm not that bad at dodging, but chances are one of those will hit and take 40-60% of my health. I'm not trying to say throwing gets kills, but unless that thrower is absolute shit, chances are they'll take a huge chunk of health out of their opponent, regardless of what that player does.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Tor! on July 27, 2012, 03:56:27 pm
My STF with armoury +3 arbalest and regular steel bolts had no trouble racking up kills, on average I'd say between second or third bolt fired was a kill.

Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Nightingale on July 27, 2012, 04:07:24 pm
Arbalest is pretty well balanced  at the moment.

Throwing needs to have one thing about them changed.... That stupid little thing they do when they are being chased that Backwards jump throw...  - lack of better term

I have been using MW arbalest and MW steel bolts for quite awhile and I cant say it isn't easy to get kills. You just have to be patient which most are not able to do at all.
it is also a myth about  this weapon 1 shotting almost everything. I can survive sometimes 1 bolt given it black bars me but I survive non the less


I have a total of 37 body armor and 0 iron-flesh, so have more than that and you will be fine

In the Rain... Dont even bother bringing your arbalests unless your just spawning with them for chadz text
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 27, 2012, 04:10:46 pm
Throwing needs to have one thing about them changed.... That stupid little thing they do when they are being chased that Backwards jump throw...  - lack of better term
The thing all ranged can do?
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Arrowblood on July 27, 2012, 04:14:51 pm
well, its  realistic to jump and throw.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Nightingale on July 27, 2012, 04:16:21 pm
The thing all ranged can do?

You mean the one thing only throwing can do?

Yes Throwing while Jumping at your target can be realistic... Jumping away backwards is not....
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Zerran on July 27, 2012, 04:21:19 pm
The point is that throwing can hit as hard as a lot of Xbows, can be held like an Xbow, and can fire faster than a bow. The two downsides, low ammo count and inaccuracy can't really be exploited by an opponent in a skillful manner in the same way the downsides of Xbows (Very long reload times) and Bows (Have to fire as soon as the bow is drawn) can. It's just luck, and that really sucks.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 27, 2012, 05:09:09 pm
It's just luck, and that really sucks.
While you can't headshot-aim with throwing from decent distances it's definitely not luck.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Adamar on July 27, 2012, 08:23:59 pm
While you can't headshot-aim with throwing from decent distances it's definitely not luck.

Again, they do that to me. Since Im an archer I have to stay still to aim, so yeah, it's not luck.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Phew on July 30, 2012, 02:45:02 pm
There are several dedicated arbalesters that routinely top scoreboard on NA siege. I think the key is to focus on people that have already taken damage and/or enemy archers.

Loomed arbalest also has a feature that other ranged lacks; the ability to shoot through most shields at short range. I have a +3 Heavy Round Shield and 6 shield skill, and it's not uncommon for fully loomed arbs+steel bolts to penetrate right through the middle of my shield.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on July 30, 2012, 06:32:23 pm
are you kidding me?

you just shot me for over 75% hp in my ARM with 50 armor and 3 IF
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Corwin on July 30, 2012, 06:33:47 pm
are you kidding me?

you just shot me for over 75% hp in my ARM with 50 armor and 3 IF

That's what you get for raping me the round before. Anyway, there was a good speed bonus, and you weren't far.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Tavuk_Bey on July 30, 2012, 10:14:06 pm
There are several dedicated arbalesters that routinely top scoreboard on NA siege.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on July 30, 2012, 10:17:49 pm
I don't think anyone likes being one shot by any ranged......even ranged doesn't like it.

So, yeah.....why are we promoting it?
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Tavuk_Bey on July 30, 2012, 10:32:04 pm
current state of arbalest is perfect (except rain nerf). it encourages people to aim for headshots. i was fukken upset when they had nerfed instakills, but soon after, i realized that it had changed nothing in my gameplay. actually, noob arbalesters who can't aim for headshots and freak hybrid builds were the only victims of the great nerf, cuz they've lost their instakill ability.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Darkkarma on July 30, 2012, 10:51:54 pm
Ive been playing without a loomed Arbalest/bolts for about 3 gens now. It's fine the way it is right now for the most part, really. It still packs a decent punch while not one-shotting someone when you shoot them in the hand/arm but still rewards those who aim for the head. The only issue I have is that even with 170 wpf, there is ALOT of wiggle room that makes landing longshots extremely difficult. Now, from mid or close range it's not an issue, but you could do the same thing with a regular/heavy crossbow just as easily. Factor in the trigger delay,multiple slots and hefty costs and you'll end up asking yourself "why even bother?". This is supposed to be the sniper xbow, but it can't really do that too well unless the player really knows what they are doing and can adjust accordingly. Even then, having to waste 2-3 bolts in adjusting alone out of a 12 bolt quiver kind of sucks. Unless you have some personal preference/reason to go with the arbalest, you'd more than likely be much better served going with a regular crossbow using a very similar effective range with twice the bolts.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: OssumPawesome on July 31, 2012, 12:05:45 am
arbalest could use a bit of a bump up imo.  im ok with 2 shotting medium armor, but I find I often 2 shot lighter armored archers and that is to me a bit silly.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Phew on July 31, 2012, 06:46:18 pm
According to the damage calculator, at point blank range a fully loomed arbalest+steel bolts should one-shot most targets with a torso shot up to about 40-50 body armor. Without looms, this drops to the 20-30 armor range. When you take into account decreasing damage due to range, it's easy to see why even archers often take 2 shots to kill.

I'd like to see fully loomed arbalests+steel bolts being able to reliably one-shot archers at range. After all, no archer worth his salt is going to let you shoot him twice with an arbalest.

Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Ragnar on August 01, 2012, 12:56:15 am

I thought the whole point of having a weapon that takes ages to reload like arbalest was that it can actually one shot most players? User gets punished by reloading forever, being completely exposed while doing so, having to make his shots count and being unable to carry anything good as a side weapon. But, if it can't one shot even an archer IMO it's not worth it anymore. It seems much more reasonable to pick up crossbow, pack up greatsword or 1h+ shield with it. Because you WILL kill most of archers if you shot them twice with crossbow. Not to mention that they can fire 5-6 shots while you are reloading your precious arbalest. Multiply that by two, since you have to shot them twice and you get the picture.

The Truth is if Arb one shot ppl (realism) then they would need a fucking goats foot winch and take even longer to load (realism hurr duur)
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Nightingale on August 01, 2012, 01:45:15 pm
 :rolleyes: It wouldn't take as long as you might think.

Maybe a few more seconds of sitting still reloading but that would cover it.... if your going for realism that is.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Tore on August 01, 2012, 02:08:03 pm
Yesterday I got shot with a bolt on the stomach and had so little hp left I couldent see it in the HP bar.... 51 body armor 18 strenght and 3 IF... :mad:
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Gurnisson on August 01, 2012, 02:09:42 pm
Buff its accuracy.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Vkvkvk on August 01, 2012, 02:38:21 pm
:rolleyes: It wouldn't take as long as you might think.

Maybe a few more seconds of sitting still reloading but that would cover it.... if your going for realism that is.

An arbalest would take around 40 seconds in real life to reload.

It only takes a few seconds ingame.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Tavuk_Bey on August 01, 2012, 07:38:55 pm
An arbalest would take around 40 seconds in real life to reload.

It only takes a few seconds ingame.

i guess it's impossible to make reloading with windlass animation for that in this game
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Vkvkvk on August 02, 2012, 12:56:29 am
i guess it's impossible to make reloading with windlass animation for that in this game

I just doubt the Devs would actually take the time to implement a windlass/cranequin animation to the Arbalest.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Phew on December 13, 2012, 09:36:18 pm
Yesterday Desirable hit me with a +3 steel bolt from his +3 arbalest from about 10 yards away. It did about 15 damage (it was raining). He claims it hit me in the face, which is possible because I didn't see the bolt stuck in my torso anywhere.

Make rain increase reload time or something, but that much damage nerf is ridiculous. If I was a dedicated crossbowman, I'd probably just quit whenever it rained.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Torost on December 13, 2012, 10:10:55 pm
People have adapted, more MW armor and healthpoints in general.

Other than epeen glory, consider what is best for you team.
That you severly cripple a tincan down to 10-20% health?
Or that you 1shot some already wounded guy/low level guy?

Get a pony and chase peasants and afkers if you want more kills.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Grumbs on December 14, 2012, 02:31:59 pm
I think the problem here is OP expects to 1 hit kill by point and clicking with a crossbow..if you shoot at 5 different guys and the 5th is the one to die in 1 hit, that takes no account of the fact you just halved or put 4 guys HP at 3/4 gone

If I swing my mighty long bardiche at someones head and he fails to block I won't 1 hit kill most of the time. And this is melee range against people who can negate 100% of my damage and deal damage back to me

So yeah why on earth should you 1 hit kill with point&click projectiles at range.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Laufknoten on December 14, 2012, 03:01:29 pm
Other than epeen glory, consider what is best for you team.
That you severly cripple a tincan down to 10-20% health?
Or that you 1shot some already wounded guy/low level guy?
Yeah, and get 1 or 2 points for that while some shielder who happens to stand near an enemy gets 10 or more points. Totally rewarding.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on December 14, 2012, 04:14:28 pm
I think the problem here is OP expects to 1 hit kill by point and clicking with a crossbow..if you shoot at 5 different guys and the 5th is the one to die in 1 hit, that takes no account of the fact you just halved or put 4 guys HP at 3/4 gone

If I swing my mighty long bardiche at someones head and he fails to block I won't 1 hit kill most of the time. And this is melee range against people who can negate 100% of my damage and deal damage back to me

So yeah why on earth should you 1 hit kill with point&click projectiles at range.
It's an old thread. blame phew for resurrecting.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Phew on December 14, 2012, 04:28:57 pm
It's an old thread. blame phew for resurrecting.

I resurrected the thread to talk about rain and how it screws crossbowmen. I don't have a horse in the race, since I haven't fired a crossbow in over a year. I just like diversity on the battlefield, and the rain issue just makes the few dedicated crossbowmen want to respec 2h like everyone else.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on December 15, 2012, 04:49:52 am
The assumed dedicated arbalest build is 15/XX, you can get very high WPF and reload a +3 Arbalest very quickly with this build. If you could one-shot most people with loomed arba/bolts and 160+ WPF there would be more arbalesters than any other class! When I played arbalest sniper, I had no trouble keeping up in kills, hitting someone who is already damage usually drops them, and you can take down even the beefiest enemy scoreboard toppers with 3 or so hits (and no risk to yourself if you have good awareness).

Arbalest is quite well balanced where it is.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Nightingale on December 16, 2012, 08:32:16 pm
I resurrected the thread to talk about rain and how it screws crossbowmen. I don't have a horse in the race, since I haven't fired a crossbow in over a year. I just like diversity on the battlefield, and the rain issue just makes the few dedicated crossbowmen want to respec 2h like everyone else.

Well, in the rain I feel like I am giving the enemy HP points instead of taking them away. If you have plate armor I might as well not even shoot at you for I only got 14 bolts, tell me why I am shooting this guy for 1 point? Damage isn't a problem when its not raining... but in the rain I might as well be a lightly armored peasant.


The assumed dedicated arbalest build is 15/XX, you can get very high WPF and reload a +3 Arbalest very quickly with this build. If you could one-shot most people with loomed arba/bolts and 160+ WPF there would be more arbalesters than any other class! When I played arbalest sniper,I had no trouble keeping up in kills, hitting someone who is already damage usually drops them, and you can take down even the beefiest enemy scoreboard toppers with 3 or so hits (and no risk to yourself if you have good awareness).

Arbalest is quite well balanced where it is.

15/27, 175 WPF 6 athletics and 2 ps. Takes around 13-14 seconds to reload. Aiming for people that are already damaged is the 'only' way to play this class effectively. I hardly ever aim for people that don't have arrows or bolts in them already.- Thank god for final bosses heirloom remodeling, I can tell which level of loom is in the guy-  3 or so hits is 20-30% of my pack of bolts. 30% of my bolts and more than half a minute trying to kill the same guy - that would have to be standing still or in the same location after each time I get done reloading, so I could instantly fire at him again.

When you say the arbalest is well balanced, I look at how many people play the class, 4-5 active people NA side, If it was more well balanced don't you think more people would play it? I am not even sure why I play this class anymore to be honest. I should just go Heavy Crossbow instead, cheaper, almost same damage, similar flight pattern. I could even go 2 hander or polearm with a normal crossbow like everyone else does.

Yes, phew how dare you resurrect this old thread!

Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Strudog on December 16, 2012, 08:36:42 pm
played almost 12 gens as a xbow with arbalest, i 2 hit kill everyone, there is nothing wrong with the damage
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Nightingale on December 16, 2012, 08:39:07 pm
played almost 12 gens as a xbow with arbalest, i 2 hit kill everyone, there is nothing wrong with the damage

 I wish I could do that. oh well, I just suck I guess.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on December 16, 2012, 09:59:40 pm
I don't recall having to take more than 2-3 shots to kill higher tier mail and lower plate with a +3 Heavy Crossbow and +3 Steel bolts. If you really feel like it takes 14 seconds to reload your arbalest (it doesn't) then swap it for a +3 heavy crossbow, if you can find one. With 150+ wpf, they reload faster than a +0 crossbow and ~100 wpf.

I haven't played arbalest sniper in a few months, but I don't recall xbows being nerfed or buffed in any of the recent patches. It takes around 5 seconds to reload an arbalest with 150 or more wpf, and if you are persistent you will kill anyone that isn't 33/3 with full plate in 3 or less shots. Your kills won't go up, but each shot you land on ANY enemy is helping your team. Softening targets up for your teamates is a big help, especially if it's a 2H hero that would shrug off 7 or 8 swings in melee.

Also you can start moving during the reload animation the second your hand touches your forehead. As long as you keep holding down the reload button, you can complete the rest of it while walking.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Nightingale on December 16, 2012, 10:09:53 pm
Also you can start moving during the reload animation the second your hand touches your forehead. As long as you keep holding down the reload button, you can complete the rest of it while walking.

I am counting the reloading time as in the full length of time before I can firing again, not the amount of time I have to remain stationary, I'll go count now and edit it into my post but I am pretty sure its at least 12-14 seconds.

I counted a few times,

9 seconds the first go
8 the second
9 the third
8 again the last.

So it seems to not take as long as I thought... but still 8-9 seconds is a god awful long time in game, and no doubt that helped me believe it was 12-14 seconds  :oops:
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: //saxon on December 16, 2012, 11:10:01 pm
PRO TIP: +3 heavy crossbow.

insainly faster than the arbalest and little tiny bit slower than the crossbow to reload.
i used it for 2 gens with +3 steel bolts and i 1hit like a boss my KD:R after both gens i think was about 2100+ kills
its very accurate, looks better, weighs less, got a lower difficulty for pure xbowers, so much cheaper and hasn't got a missle speed difference too notice against arbalest.

its fuckin awesome.


ONLY BAD THING IS: it is extremely rare and hard to get.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Nightingale on December 16, 2012, 11:28:51 pm
PRO TIP: +3 heavy crossbow.

insainly faster than the arbalest and little tiny bit slower than the crossbow to reload.
i used it for 2 gens with +3 steel bolts and i 1hit like a boss my KD:R after both gens i think was about 2100+ kills
its very accurate, looks better, weighs less, got a lower difficulty for pure xbowers, so much cheaper and hasn't got a missle speed difference too notice against arbalest.

its fuckin awesome.


ONLY BAD THING IS: it is extremely rare and hard to get.

Been using +3 Arbalest with +3 bolts for 17 16 gens, I might just get one xP
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Tomas on December 17, 2012, 05:53:36 pm
I almost posted a rage thread about Arbalests seeming to be nerfed a week or 2 ago.

I was using a MW Arbalest and unloomed Steel Bolts at the time and struggling to get any kills.  Then i loomed my bolts to +1 and suddenly was doing well again.  Then I dropped down to a normal Arbalest and didn't even notice a difference.  The lesson I learned from this is that sometimes you just go on a bad run.

Using an Arbalest is one of the worst weapons for relying on the circumstances.  To do well you need; cover to reload, a nice firing position, a distraction so that people can't just dodge, no rain, a team that stays alive long enough for you to reload more than 3 times.  Fail to get these things and you don't really get the opportunity to shine which is why i always go hybrid :D

120 wpf is more than enough proficiency if you have a brain and then you have plenty of points left over to go melee when it rains :D
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Rumblood on December 17, 2012, 06:06:00 pm
I almost posted a rage thread about Arbalests seeming to be nerfed a week or 2 ago.

I was using a MW Arbalest and unloomed Steel Bolts at the time and struggling to get any kills.  Then i loomed my bolts to +1 and suddenly was doing well again.  Then I dropped down to a normal Arbalest and didn't even notice a difference.  The lesson I learned from this is that sometimes you just go on a bad run.

Using an Arbalest is one of the worst weapons for relying on the circumstances.  To do well you need; cover to reload, a nice firing position, a distraction so that people can't just dodge, no rain, a team that stays alive long enough for you to reload more than 3 times.  Fail to get these things and you don't really get the opportunity to shine which is why i always go hybrid :D

120 wpf is more than enough proficiency if you have a brain and then you have plenty of points left over to go melee when it rains :D

Not to mention that where you hit the other player, how far away they were, whether the sun is shining in Tibet, and how close the moon is currently in orbit will all affect the damage that you do  :shock:
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on December 17, 2012, 09:00:26 pm
Not to mention that where you hit the other player, how far away they were, whether the sun is shining in Tibet, and how close the moon is currently in orbit will all affect the damage that you do  :shock:

That's all to make up for the fact that none of your stats will ever effect the crossbow's damage!  :lol:
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: El_Infante on December 19, 2012, 08:08:21 pm
I played 4 o 5 gens of loomed arbalester and I have to say that:
- Rain ruin our day. Why? I have to change server everytime it happen. I hope someday dev remove that unfair penalty.
- Accuracy was nerfed a lot. In the oldtimes we had pinpoint accuracy at 170wpf. I agree is not balanced but a slightly buff is needed because is very hard to land far shots and our fire rate is so slow.
- Ranged damage is random. That is why sometimes players with heavy armor get oneshotted. (Speed bonus + high random damage).
- Oneshotting is luck. Sometimes archers die in one shot, sometimes not. The best way to do is shooting people that are running straight to you.

The thing I more hate is the repair rate. I can't earn money because that 1400 repair occurs more than it should, and my equipment is cheap (scale armor, mail gauntlets, and a flanged mace)
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Rumblood on December 20, 2012, 12:41:57 am
I played 4 o 5 gens of loomed arbalester and I have to say that:
- Rain ruin our day. Why? I have to change server everytime it happen. I hope someday dev remove that unfair penalty.
- Accuracy was nerfed a lot. In the oldtimes we had pinpoint accuracy at 170wpf. I agree is not balanced but a slightly buff is needed because is very hard to land far shots and our fire rate is so slow.
- Ranged damage is random. That is why sometimes players with heavy armor get oneshotted. (Speed bonus + high random damage).
- Oneshotting is luck. Sometimes archers die in one shot, sometimes not. The best way to do is shooting people that are running straight to you.

The thing I more hate is the repair rate. I can't earn money because that 1400 repair occurs more than it should, and my equipment is cheap (scale armor, mail gauntlets, and a flanged mace)

I dislike xbows, but this player sounds reasonable. I've always been a supporter of 170 WPF being the sweet spot for accuracy for ranged. If you've devoted that much to it, you aren't some tincan running around with melee AND long range spam  :idea: The random factors just blow.  :mad: (I don't consider speed bonus random FYI)
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Tomas on December 24, 2012, 01:44:10 pm
(click to show/hide)

I disagree with most of this. 

Rain is part of life and should not be removed, I rarely even notice it tbh. A head shot is still a head shot even with rain, whilst I don't notice the difference between 2 shotting or 3 shotting players because i can never know their build or what other damage they've taken.  Besides I deliberately try not to focus on individual players anyway as imo it decreases awareness of everything else. 

Accuracy is fine imo, nothing should be pinpoint in a game that doesn't have sway or wind.

Ranged damage isn't random, but how can you ever know how much health your opponent has in battle or their armour.  There's a massive difference between a 39-3 build in loomed plate/heavy gauntlets and a 21-18 build in normal plate/heavy gauntlets.  30 hitpoints and 10 BA to be exact.  Both will look identical to you though. My experience on the duel server is that damage is pretty stable if you replicate the shot against the same opponent.

As for not 1 shotting archers, this is the trade off from having pierce damage.

Repairs are the only issue i agree with but it is a wider issue related to the new valour system which rewards melee far more than in the past.  That is another topic though.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Rumblood on December 24, 2012, 04:45:21 pm
(click to show/hide)
Accuracy is fine imo, nothing should be pinpoint in a game that doesn't have sway or wind.

Ranged damage isn't random,

But it DOES have gravity and missile speed which gives pronounced arcs to missiles, so it isn't some straight line shooter like you want to imply. It also has lightning fast horses (courser) that can change direction on a dime (Arabian), most maps with plenty of cover, athletics that let people run around like Benny Hill when they see that they are being targeted, and not to mention, shields.

Given comments from many otherbeta testers/dev types, I will take their word that ranged damage has a random component to it until the developer in charge of the formulas says otherwise.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Tomas on December 24, 2012, 07:29:45 pm
Given comments from many otherbeta testers/dev types, I will take their word that ranged damage has a random component to it until the developer in charge of the formulas says otherwise.

Meant to say "isn't that random" as in doesn't fluctuate as wildly as some people seem to suggest
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Rumblood on December 24, 2012, 07:48:03 pm
Meant to say "isn't that random" as in doesn't fluctuate as wildly as some people seem to suggest

That I could see. Still somewhat random, but yes you are right. People will shoot someone in the chest, then shoot them in the arm and say "WTF? Damage is so random!"
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Tomas on December 24, 2012, 08:08:03 pm
That I could see. Still somewhat random, but yes you are right. People will shoot someone in the chest, then shoot them in the arm and say "WTF? Damage is so random!"

Don't you mean - WTF!? I one shot a tincan (agility based player already down to 5HPs, shot point blank in the chest from above) but failed to kill a peasant with my next shot (level 35, 42-3 str crutcher, shot in the arm from 50 yards on level ground). Damage is so random!!

:D :D
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on December 25, 2012, 09:00:33 am
More so than archers, crossbow users need to survey their field of vision for good targets. The slow reload and low ammo count means that every shot should be deliberate and meaningful. I like this distinction and don't want to see crossbows become more bow-like.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Segd on December 25, 2012, 10:46:18 am
I'm playing as xbowman only for 1 gen, but I think it requires some buffing if you'll compare them with bows:

- Rain reduces bow damage by 10%
- Rain reduces crossbow damage by 25%.
Bows also have more DPS(damage per second), more ammo & no need to use cover.

Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Paul on December 25, 2012, 11:08:17 am
Damage randomness against unarmored targets is low. The more armor is used, the bigger is the randomness because of the structure of the Native raw damage vs. armor calc. What can appear as randomness to the untrained eye is the cRPG bone based hit zone system that will cut the damage down if  for example a limb is hit.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Tovi on December 25, 2012, 11:26:45 am
In real world, xbows become unusable under rain.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Corwin on December 25, 2012, 05:04:10 pm
This isn't real world. Otherwise, 20 arrows fired from horn bow wouldn't be able to hurt anyone wearing plate armor.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Rumblood on December 25, 2012, 06:43:10 pm
I'm playing as xbowman only for 1 gen, but I think it requires some buffing if you'll compare them with bows:

- Rain reduces bow damage by 10%
- Rain reduces crossbow damage by 25%.
Bows also have more DPS(damage per second), more ammo & no need to use cover.

Yet somehow you see tincans using a xbow sidearm with 1 wpf, but never see them using a bow. Why? Your calculation completely leaves out the 6 skill points you need for Power Draw to use a Rus, Yumi, or Longbow. That is 6 points that can be placed into 3 strength points for the additional health, option for more power strike, etc. 6 skill points certainly is not insignificant and definitely disingenuous to leave out of the xbow vs archer debate. Not to mention the xbows can be held forever while an archer has a small window of firing opportunity for accuracy. Xbows fit their role just fine without a buff.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Nightingale on December 29, 2012, 06:41:20 pm
Yet somehow you see tincans using a xbow sidearm with 1 wpf, but never see them using a bow. Why? Your calculation completely leaves out the 6 skill points you need for Power Draw to use a Rus, Yumi, or Longbow. That is 6 points that can be placed into 3 strength points for the additional health, option for more power strike, etc. 6 skill points certainly is not insignificant and definitely disingenuous to leave out of the xbow vs archer debate. Not to mention the xbows can be held forever while an archer has a small window of firing opportunity for accuracy. Xbows fit their role just fine without a buff.


This is about the Arbalest "Is Arbalest OK?". Though I do agree The 1 wpf 2 hander with Crossbow should be nerfed. That build has it all with no Skill investement

The Arbalest with a pure build has anywhere from 160-180 WPF and little or no melee stats. Thats just my definition of pure build like mine :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Rumblood on December 29, 2012, 07:10:14 pm

This is about the Arbalest "Is Arbalest OK?". Though I do agree The 1 wpf 2 hander with Crossbow should be nerfed. That build has it all with no Skill investement

The Arbalest with a pure build has anywhere from 160-180 WPF and little or no melee stats. Thats just my definition of pure build like mine :mrgreen:

Whenever people want a buff to xbow, they complain about deficiencies compared to the BOW. Don't bring it up as an argument if you don't want bow arguments in return. The QUOTE that I'm answering, it matters.  :rolleyes:

I'm playing as xbowman only for 1 gen, but I think it requires some buffing if you'll compare them with bows:

- Rain reduces bow damage by 10%
- Rain reduces crossbow damage by 25%.
Bows also have more DPS(damage per second), more ammo & no need to use cover.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 01:14:25 pm
Only way to make ranged work realistically is to balance the damage it does to diffrent armors, i get oneshotted by a rusbow to body if i ride archer head on with horse, which is completely unbalanced while a tincan has to be shot ten times with same IF, that is completely unbalanced too.
Title: Re: Is Arbalest OK?
Post by: Siiem on January 02, 2013, 04:53:12 pm
Youtube always has the answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3j4t185wl-0#t=143s