cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Meow on April 06, 2011, 03:02:59 pm

Title: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Meow on April 06, 2011, 03:02:59 pm
Hey, i am sorry i forgot who initially suggested this so please take credit if you read this :mrgreen:

So right now hybrids are way to go as there is no real disadvantage in doing so.

The idea is to put a WPF requirement on all weapons in addition to their current requirement.
Then you put those either in tiers or just go from 0 to i don't know 145? WPF or more on the highest tier weapons.

That will benefit pure builds, ranged and melee as they will be able to use the best weapons while hybrids will use lower tier weapons for the benefit of using multiple types of weapons.

It would need some fine tuning to get sweet spots for the tiers but we have a some people here who like doing the math for that ;)

It would encourage people to use all weapons and not just the best ones.

Also it will nerf pure str builds as they will lack the wpf requirement for the highest tier weapons while pure agi builds lack the damage output.

Just throwing it out there as there was no topic about it yet and i'd like to see this discussed.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Vibe on April 06, 2011, 03:07:29 pm
+1
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Teeth on April 06, 2011, 03:08:31 pm
Im all for giving pure players an advantage over hybrids, cause there isnt really a major one now and there should be. It would be really hard  to balance this out, but I like the idea. You want a german greatsword, than your best throwing weapon are war darts. Sounds good imo.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Count_RisArch on April 06, 2011, 03:09:46 pm
As a pure 2h for 5 gens and only recently discovering the pure awesomeness of the upper tier 2h weapons I will give a massive +1 to this idea.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Beauchamp on April 06, 2011, 03:14:08 pm
+1
this will solve A LOT of problems too (to much of ranged etc...). btw if you do this, you should allow people to choose different heirlooms.

i think it will be 2nd best thing implemented into crpg ever - after the banner balance
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Chris_P_Bacon on April 06, 2011, 03:35:45 pm
I don't really like the idea of nerfing pure str builds, they are already ridiculously slow, and pretty easy to take out if you can manual block, unless they have a crushthrough weapon. Even then it isn't too hard, but I do personally think crushthrough is OP. The idea of the game should be to balance it, not make fast guys stronger and strong guys weaker.

But I do like the idea of nerfing hybrids.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Hannibal on April 06, 2011, 05:06:35 pm
I think an easier and more effective nerf could be reducing ranged profs based on the weight and length of side arms held. I'm limited by phone typing, but I think the idea is clear and specific to hybrids.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Christo on April 06, 2011, 05:08:05 pm
Would solve a lot of things. (Archers pulling out a long maul/flamberge, throwing/crossbow sidearms without/low investment)
I TOTALLY support this idea.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Akryn on April 06, 2011, 05:25:52 pm
I would love to help on the math if this did come into place. I do think that hybrids are much more viable than pure builds (by pure build, I mean only going one weapon style, NOT going pure strength/agility).

However, I'm not 100% convinced that nerfing the hybrids is the way to go. We also need to consider that the hybrid system is ok, just that the pure builds are underpowered. This could be solved by reducing the massive Weapon Proficiency Points needed to increase by 1 WPF at higher levels allowing higher WPFs to be achieved. Just food for thought.

Something does need to be changed.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Polobow on April 06, 2011, 05:28:16 pm
Why didn't anyone think of this before?

+1.

ONly problem would be that you will need WM for some weapons, making agi a must :/
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Camaris on April 06, 2011, 05:30:41 pm
+1 very good
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Ozin on April 06, 2011, 05:32:10 pm
I support this  :!:
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Christo on April 06, 2011, 05:37:07 pm
pure builds are underpowered

+1
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Belmont on April 06, 2011, 05:39:00 pm
This would fix many issues, especially regarding throwers and crossbowmen.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Zisa on April 06, 2011, 05:41:03 pm
Not sure if this would solve anything.
with Weapon master 5 you get 2 wpf's... 120/100

It might mean thrower hybrids would have to use darts, which excepting anti-cavalry, is a good choice anyway. I suppose it depends on where you put the cut offs for the requirements.

Anyone good with a crossbow likely has wpf invested already.

It may put an end to pure throwers/archers picking up a weapon once out of ammo, but I am not personally offended gettting killed by 1wpf melee.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Teeth on April 06, 2011, 05:45:15 pm
Not sure if this would solve anything.
with Weapon master 5 you get 2 wpf's... 120/100

It might mean thrower hybrids would have to use darts, which excepting anti-cavalry, is a good choice anyway.
War darts are not the uber one shot 1 kill weapons that worry me the most. With 120 wpf a char like this might not be able to use his top tier melee weapon so it does weaken him.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on April 06, 2011, 06:13:29 pm
I'm a pretty balanced hybrid build, and i don't honestly mind this as long as it is just a requirement rather than affecting how much it contributes to a skill. I throw javelins with 134 throwing and also have 100 polearm, for a warspear so this makes sense. But nerfing wpfs actual current effect would be in my idea  a bad thing, but i don't think you are suggesting this so :P
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Jacko on April 06, 2011, 06:14:35 pm
How will this not just make everyone go high agi builds instead? I like the idea of a requirements for higher tier weapons, but this will simply make people go 18/21 or similar.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Seawied on April 06, 2011, 06:19:00 pm
I think changing the WPF curve is needed as well. It was over nerfed in the big patch.

I say revert the WPF curve to the way it was last year. Without the retirement WPF carry-over, and an effective level cap at 30, spamming won't be an issue.

Changing the WPF curve back to the way it was before will give you a lot more flexibility balancing the WPF requirement as well.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Meow on April 06, 2011, 06:24:09 pm
How will this not just make everyone go high agi builds instead? I like the idea of a requirements for higher tier weapons, but this will simply make people go 18/21 or similar.

well three options i can come up with right now:
1. make wpf price go up for overall wpf spend instead of each skill on it's own.
2. use the other requirements to balance it out.
3. remove WM and give everyone the same wpf points to spend.

but yeah i guess most people would go for balanced builds.
imo the low str high agi disadvantage is the damage they dish out but it might need some further balancing.

EDIT: can't really judge how the WPF stuff was before the patch so maybe what the guy above me said, too  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Seawied on April 06, 2011, 06:50:17 pm
To be honest, I think the way WM is handled in C-RPG is a very ingenious. It is one of only 2 skills in agility which all classes need (the other being athletics.) If you remove WM, you encourage even MORE people to go strength builds, and currently, strength builds rule supreme already. Agility builds tend to be few and far between these days because of the WPF nerf in January, and from the rumors about athletics being nerfed in a recent patch.

A WPF requirement that keeps WM would be a great solution, because it forces hybrids to invest more into agility, as opposed to the more effective strength attribute. It would solve a lot of the problems in the game.


I just don't envy you guys having to code WPF requirements into Warband.  :lol:
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Bjord on April 06, 2011, 08:04:26 pm
YES!

THANK YOU.

+1
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Kophka on April 06, 2011, 08:22:35 pm
The way the system should work : The wpf requirements are in ADDITION to the current str/pd/pt requirements. This will keep all agi buffers from exploiting the system. Give a little boost to WM, but not too much. At 5 WM, you should be able to have 160 in one (1) category. 160 is a good number for the top tier weapons, like poleaxes, flamberges, sniper xbows, throwing lances, and sideswords. I'm sure we can fill an entire thread just discussing the weapon tiers, so I'll leave it there for now.

The reasoning behind the system : It'd be a boost for people that want to specialize in a weapon class, when there is currently no good reason too. It'd be a nerf for hybrids, who currently have no need to sacrifice anything for their builds. It would stop pure build melee players from exploiting the fact that you can still kill with a sniper xbow at 1 wpf. It would stop pure archers from pulling a poleaxe or flamberge out of their tails. If you are a melee player that is great at crossbowing, more power to you, but you're gonna be stuck with a bottom tier xbow. Add the wpf if you want to play a crossbowman. Archers, you may be really skilled at melee, but you are going to be stuck with the lower tier weapons. Sacrifice some of that archer wpf for a melee weapon if you want to use the good stuff.

Tweaks that will be needed (most likely). Un-nerf archery a bit. They don't need Pierce damage, but a bit higher cut damage at high wpf would help alleviate the pain of not being able to use the best melee weapons any longer. Decide what weapon goes into what tiers. You can probably divide them into 6 tiers, with a manageable number of wpf for each tier.

And the number one reason I'd love to see it : It works along the same lines as chadz's desire to make heirlooms special and meaningful. It'd be nice to see the top tier weapons in the hands of those who gave something up for them, rather than random joe-blows from all walks of life that came into some money.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Kung Fu Jesus on April 06, 2011, 08:24:44 pm
I agree with the basic idea maybe with some tweaks. At the very least, it would get rid of throwers/xbowers that have zero wpf but are still super effective. My problem has always been the number of projectiles flying through the air, not the power of those projectiles. And any steps that would require more skill point investments in some way, is a good thing.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Gatsby on April 07, 2011, 06:41:14 pm
Good idea to let horsemen dominate the game, no more inf. with Pike/Heavy Lance around. And by the way, to avoid throwing shit and arrows and bolts, use a shield. it works.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Casimir on April 07, 2011, 06:49:03 pm
Yes. Nerf them my old friends who like to use weps without WPF.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Wallace on April 07, 2011, 06:53:42 pm
Why are people always trying to bag on us str builds? With 36 str I should be allowed to use anything but I only have 111 WPF so I oppose said idea
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Christo on April 07, 2011, 07:06:39 pm
Because STR builds are cookie-cutters, while AGI is the underdog.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Kophka on April 07, 2011, 07:22:40 pm
Good idea to let horsemen dominate the game, no more inf. with Pike/Heavy Lance around. And by the way, to avoid throwing shit and arrows and bolts, use a shield. it works.

I sure wish you'd take the time to explain your reasoning here. What I think you are saying is that people wouldn't be willing to spend a bit of wpf on a polearm to fill an anti cavalry role. Simple solution : Make Pike or Bamboo Spear a bottom tier polearm. There ya go tiger.

Yes. Nerf them my old friends who like to use weps without WPF.

Indeed.

Why are people always trying to bag on us str builds? With 36 str I should be allowed to use anything but I only have 111 WPF so I oppose said idea

Because stepping onto the battle field with no agility is kinda silly. I agree you should be able to lift any weapon you like, as well as peasants, horses, and small buildings, but wpf represents skill with a weapon, in game terms. You, as a player, may be extremely skilled, but the lumbering behemoth you're playing should have took the time to train with the weapons he plans to carry. With 111 wpf, you'd be able to use a large variety of weapons, just not the top tier ones. Of course, with 12 PS, you can one shot people with a wooden sword or staff, so what are you worried about? :P

Overall, it would help to balance the game quite a bit, and I believe it's worth looking into. Things can always be tweaked, that's why chadz has kept the game in beta status all these months. :D
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Kung Fu Jesus on April 07, 2011, 09:31:31 pm
Good idea to let horsemen dominate the game, no more inf. with Pike/Heavy Lance around. And by the way, to avoid throwing shit and arrows and bolts, use a shield. it works.

A level 1 peasant can stop a horse with a pitchfork. Its not that hard. And a pike is a very low level weapon. If WPF was used, its not like a pike would require 150 points.
And you think someone should be required to use their skill points to carry a decent shield to avoid projectiles flung by people who require no skill points to use those items?
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Wallace on April 07, 2011, 09:33:42 pm
Because STR builds are cookie-cutters, while AGI is the underdog.

K first off I am one of maybe 3 people that are pure str so don't even start with that. Secondly AGI builds on REAL players will rape face. Thirdly I've always been pure str... like back when the agi players had 500+ WPF so again don't start
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: kastellan on April 07, 2011, 10:42:35 pm
I like this idea, and i like the ideas meow has posted (especially making wpf price go up for overall wpf spend instead of each skill on it's own).

So +1 from me.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Seawied on April 07, 2011, 11:16:44 pm
K first off I am one of maybe 3 people that are pure str so don't even start with that. Secondly AGI builds on REAL players will rape face. Thirdly I've always been pure str... like back when the agi players had 500+ WPF so again don't start

Wallace, there are a LOT more than 3 people with pure strength builds. I myself have one... thinking of making another too!
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: MrShine on April 07, 2011, 11:25:41 pm
I think this is a great idea in theory, but the devil lies in the details of balancing.  Too restrictive and hybrids die (bad thing), too loose and very little is changed.  Still, at the very least this could provide a bit more importance to balancing builds, or at least giving a little more benefit back to agility.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Original_Sin on April 07, 2011, 11:29:20 pm
aye, sign me in :wink:
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Casimir on April 07, 2011, 11:40:24 pm
Set the max WPF requirement for each category as 111 then. That way dedicated builds can use the best weapons regardless of STR:AGI ratio and it deals with the same problem, that is, Archers using Flamburges, great swords and long mauls.  Also make all requirements lower for 1h so that it becomes a more attractive alternative to archers.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Zergmar on April 07, 2011, 11:41:12 pm
For Throwers & Crossbows only - do want.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Christo on April 07, 2011, 11:46:58 pm
For Crossbows:

Hunting:25
Light:50
Crossbow:75
Heavy Crossbow:100
Sniper Crossbow:150

What do you think?
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Havoco on April 08, 2011, 01:31:03 am
+1 christo
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: El_Infante on April 08, 2011, 01:53:33 am
Christo, what do you think of something like this?

Hunting:60
Light:80
Crossbow:100
Heavy Crossbow:120
Sniper Crossbow:140

I think that WPF requeriments are easy affordable to be an hybrid or spec crossbowman.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Christo on April 08, 2011, 03:43:37 am
Christo, what do you think of something like this?

Hunting:60
Light:80
Crossbow:100
Heavy Crossbow:120
Sniper Crossbow:140

I think that WPF requeriments are easy affordable to be an hybrid or spec crossbowman.

Sounds good.
Even better than my idea.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Siiem on April 08, 2011, 04:10:34 am
The only problem with xbow is that they are too effective with 1 in wpf compared to 140, if there was a way to make the crosshair huge at 1 wpf and really inaccurate would solve most problems with it.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: El_Infante on April 08, 2011, 04:39:56 am
The problem is presently, everyone can be a hybrid without spending WPF points on certain weapons. For example, you can swing very fast a Long Hafted Blade without WPF points in it. I was trying a build of high STR char while noticed that high speed weapons, don't need proficiency at all to be useful.

In the other hand, everyone can use a xBow without WPF; changing the reticule intervale between 1-100 wpf with solve that problem, but won't fix seeing archers with long mauls, or xBowers with German Greatsword. I think if we want a balanced game, hybrids needs to be hybrids (that means they're not good as spec, and they couldn't carry high tier weapons of neither classes they mix). Furthermore, that could be better if all weapons have two requeriments as we saw on other posts. PS for melee, PD for bows,  and HIGH WPF requeriments for xBows. If we only have WPF req, everyone will go to AGI builds. If we only have PS requeriments, you will see STR builds of archers/maulers, archer/poleaxers, or archers/2H with German, Danish or Flamberge.

Spec classes need to have advantages that only can reach being spec. At that moment, you will see that cRpg become balanced. Archers deadly at ranged, but weak on close combat. Crossbowmens being useful at ranged/close combat. 2Handers and Poles, being deadly at close combat with the high tier weapons of the game.

For example, as Christo and me said before:

Christo, what do you think of something like this?

Hunting:60
Light:80
Crossbow:100
Heavy Crossbow:120
Sniper Crossbow:140

I think that WPF requeriments are easy affordable to be an hybrid or spec crossbowman.


Another example:

German Greatsword   
weight 2.5
requirement about 5 or 6 PS, 130 - 150 WPF
spd rtng 92
weapon length 123
swing damage 38, cut
thrust damage 30 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Secondary
   
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Kophka on April 08, 2011, 06:02:08 am
Christo, what do you think of something like this?

Hunting:60
Light:80
Crossbow:100
Heavy Crossbow:120
Sniper Crossbow:140

I think that WPF requeriments are easy affordable to be an hybrid or spec crossbowman.

The numbers look ok, but remember, the whole idea is to keep hybrids from using the top tier gear in a class. The top weapons are meant for the specialists, otherwise, there's no point in it. We're trying to balance hybrids out a little, right? Maybe what ever 5 WM is, when put solely into 1 weapon class would be the minimum for the top tier weapons of each class.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Zisa on April 08, 2011, 05:58:40 pm
(click to show/hide)
Does anybody else see a problem with this....
5 or 6 PS for a greatsword, 15-18 str for a weapon that already has a str requirement.
130-150 wpf
that's at least wpm3 at lvl 30, higher end is what, WM5? WM6? (15-18 agility)

So you get the added bonus of screwing strength builds, do you want that...

It would certainly screw hybrids that go 120/100 with 5 WM, by lvl 30.

IF you add wpf requirements to every weapon, you ARE gimping lower level characters, making them easier prey for lvl30's, increasing the time they must spend with lesser weapons.

You also eliminate pure throwers/archers/xbows picking up a random weapon when they have to, and the unnofficial game of scavenger.

None of which addresses the problem of too much ranged players. I had already suggested halving stack size, but certainly there is also the danger then of even slower rounds, more hiding waiting for that perfect shot, etc.
Now if that archer/thrower/xbower, with power strike but 1wpf, takes up a slot with his own weapon, why should I be concerned about that - do I prefer he take an extra stack of ammo, then run away alot?
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Beauchamp on April 08, 2011, 06:07:53 pm
The numbers look ok, but remember, the whole idea is to keep hybrids from using the top tier gear in a class. The top weapons are meant for the specialists, otherwise, there's no point in it. We're trying to balance hybrids out a little, right? Maybe what ever 5 WM is, when put solely into 1 weapon class would be the minimum for the top tier weapons of each class.

aye or even more...
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: EponiCo on April 08, 2011, 09:32:39 pm
(click to show/hide)
Does anybody else see a problem with this....
5 or 6 PS for a greatsword, 15-18 str for a weapon that already has a str requirement.
130-150 wpf
that's at least wpm3 at lvl 30, higher end is what, WM5? WM6? (15-18 agility)

So you get the added bonus of screwing strength builds, do you want that...

It would certainly screw hybrids that go 120/100 with 5 WM, by lvl 30.

IF you add wpf requirements to every weapon, you ARE gimping lower level characters, making them easier prey for lvl30's, increasing the time they must spend with lesser weapons.

You also eliminate pure throwers/archers/xbows picking up a random weapon when they have to, and the unnofficial game of scavenger.

None of which addresses the problem of too much ranged players. I had already suggested halving stack size, but certainly there is also the danger then of even slower rounds, more hiding waiting for that perfect shot, etc.
Now if that archer/thrower/xbower, with power strike but 1wpf, takes up a slot with his own weapon, why should I be concerned about that - do I prefer he take an extra stack of ammo, then run away alot?

The idea was originally from me (or at least I said it some time ago) but I'm also not sure about if it decreases projectiles.
Though if it isn't pushed to silly levels (139 wpf = WM4 would be ok I guess) I don't think it will hurt strength builds much ... very low agi builds will just have to deal with it that they get worse weapons (but they could still use maul or axe f.i.), like very low str build has to deal with glancing.
But some points
1) Ranged weapons are imo to cheap/effective.
Archer - effectiveness is ok, and hybridizing is a really hard call. Though, over some gens of archer with cheap backup weapon I've made 150k. Ofc, you can do restrictions what you want, but people are gonna spend that money somehow ... if as armored horsearcher or by alternating 1 gen as archer 1 gen as black plated melee, so attractivity to go archer for money reasons stays
Crossbow - effectiveness is also ok imo, maybe heirloomed with full wpf are too good, but you pay only the same as an archer and have to invest not a single point. Far too cheap in opportunity cost.
Throwing - just too strong.
2) Some melee weapons or just to strong for their price
I'm looking at you, Long Hafted Spiked Mace. Other ofc too. Lol at whine about flamberge archer...
So cheap backup weapons which are also very effective exist.

Well, I think throwing and the melee weapons are going to be adressed (and unless that's done making wpf requirements for the high tier weapons is kind of pointless anyway), let's see how it looks then.

Ofc  3) People's Mentality
If you want to play as a melee, play as one.
If you take light armor to afford your horse/crossbow, forget how to take your finger away from the s key when you risk running into a 1 vs 1or camp around instead of supporting your allies in the rush it's your own fault when you get shot. Oh, don't rush high mountains with archers, in the worst case you just have to wait one minute out of their range for the flags to pop and then you win. Using cover and buying shields helps a lot also.
Yep, you are going to get shot or stabbed when you fight also. But think about it, what is worse, dying early in a short round or dying midway in a long round? The longer the round, the better for ranged.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Vanular on April 09, 2011, 12:20:44 am
I like this idea. It's always sad to see a fullplate archer with a flameberg on his back.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Keshian on April 09, 2011, 02:15:41 am
Many weapons already have a strength, powerdraw, or powerthrow requirement which works but could maybe  be a little higher.  The only weapon that could really use  awpf requirement would be xbow because of the glitch that allows dead on accurate shots with 0 wpf.  Maybe 0 wpf for hunting xbow, 25 for light, 50 for normal xbow, 75 for heavy, and 100 wpf for siege xbow.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Christo on April 09, 2011, 02:19:03 am
Many weapons already have a strength, powerdraw, or powerthrow requirement which works but could maybe  be a little higher.  The only weapon that could really use  awpf requirement would be xbow because of the glitch that allows dead on accurate shots with 0 wpf.  Maybe 0 wpf for hunting xbow, 25 for light, 50 for normal xbow, 75 for heavy, and 100 wpf for siege xbow.

Problem is that Hybrids became overpowered.

100 WPF is still nothing for a hybrid build to sacrifice. That's the main problem.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Were_M_Eye on April 09, 2011, 03:23:04 am
So the whole idea is to stop people using xbows?
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: kastellan on April 09, 2011, 04:01:12 am
So the whole idea is to stop people using xbows?

No, its to stop Melee chars from taking the additional crossbow for some freekills.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: jspook on April 09, 2011, 04:12:01 am
I was under the impression it was more about range players (archers) running around with top tier polearms and blades stuffed god knows where, and pulling them out for mele with 1 wpf.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Ramsay on April 09, 2011, 05:25:26 am

Also it will nerf pure str builds as they will lack the wpf requirement for the highest tier weapons while pure agi builds lack the damage output.


So what You are saying is that agi build would not ony be much faster but also deliver about same dmg as a str build?

Next gen 99% pure str players would just make 24str/15agi build and go 148wpf (pure on 30lvl) to use their Masterwork German/Cookies :) Hoooray for original builds!
I'd rather see all the hybrid/crossbow/junk thrower than 1/2 of people with pure builds (its just boring).

Oh BTW I'm pure 2h and I feel so special in the hybrid world  :D
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Marshal_Nemesis on April 09, 2011, 10:32:01 am
+1 for the Mighty Long Axe :D
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Kophka on April 09, 2011, 03:18:09 pm
So what You are saying is that agi build would not ony be much faster but also deliver about same dmg as a str build?

Next gen 99% pure str players would just make 24str/15agi build and go 148wpf (pure on 30lvl) to use their Masterwork German/Cookies :) Hoooray for original builds!
I'd rather see all the hybrid/crossbow/junk thrower than 1/2 of people with pure builds (its just boring).

Oh BTW I'm pure 2h and I feel so special in the hybrid world  :D

So what you are saying is that 21/18, 18/18,15/21,15/24, and 18/21 builds would vanish?

Not to mention that some people LOVE playing a hybrid, and are willing to sacrifice the ability to use the absolute best melee weapons to be a hybrid with say... Javelins and a Battle fork? Or a medium Crossbow and a Longsword?

Or, that nobody will play a DEDICATED crossbowman or archer?

Or the fact that some people really don't mind having a mid tier weapon as their top gear, like a studded warclub, Swiss Halberd, Elite Scimitar/shield, or Awlpike?

You can't project your preferences onto the masses and say "this is what they'll do" because you really have no idea. There are people that roleplay the hell out of this game, people that play it casually, and people that min/max to get every advantage they can get. I feel it's worth a shot, and would bring more variety and balance to the game than ever before.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Berserkadin on April 09, 2011, 07:20:00 pm
Aslong as I can use my Flamberge with a 30/9 build, otherwise fuck you.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Brutal on April 09, 2011, 08:11:10 pm

Quote
The reasoning behind the system : It'd be a boost for people that want to specialize in a weapon class, when there is currently no good reason too
Yea no reason except more wpf, more skill point to spend and more money for better armor/weapon. Just look how poorly pure build do on the battlefield and how much hybrid top the scoreboard :rolleyes:

also if you get powned by an archer with 0 wpf  changing is weapon won't change anything you will most likely still get owned if he has a somewhat decent low tier weapon.

Although there is some good concept behind the idea (like for xbow )I m against anything that will make everybody more or less the same build

How can a min wpf requirement for every weapon bring more variety ?

For xbow a better and simpler solution would be to have a extremely terrible accuracy at 0wpf (butit seem to be hardcoded)
For throwing just increase time between projectile so that you can rush them
It's always sad to see a fullplate archer with a flameberg on his back.
.
Why ? it's like having a big sign saying "i'm slow as hell and cant aim for shit come and kill me."
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Bobthehero on April 09, 2011, 08:43:17 pm
Aslong as I can use my Balanced/Masterworkds Long Espada Eslanova with a 30/9 build, otherwise fuck you.

Fix'd :D

Edit: What about heirloom if suddently someone cant use their heirloom because of the lack of WPF thats going to suck, a lot.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Kophka on April 10, 2011, 12:17:00 am
Fix'd :D

Edit: What about heirloom if suddently someone cant use their heirloom because of the lack of WPF thats going to suck, a lot.

Well, I think that we can agree that ANY changes are going to disrupt what somebody already has going on. If their heirloom becomes unusable due to a wpf requirement, there is already a trading option planned, or alternatively, they can simply retire, and build a character that fits that weapon.

EDIT : Sorry, I thought I'd address this one too, it has some good points.

Yea no reason except more wpf, more skill point to spend and more money for better armor/weapon. Just look how poorly pure build do on the battlefield and how much hybrid top the scoreboard :rolleyes:

also if you get powned by an archer with 0 wpf  changing is weapon won't change anything you will most likely still get owned if he has a somewhat decent low tier weapon.

Although there is some good concept behind the idea (like for xbow )I m against anything that will make everybody more or less the same build

How can a min wpf requirement for every weapon bring more variety ?

For xbow a better and simpler solution would be to have a extremely terrible accuracy at 0wpf (butit seem to be hardcoded)


Maybe in your neck of the woods, specialists do well, but I seem to remember many, many cries of rage and sadness over the number of ranged players on both sides of the crpg world. With a system like this, people that now take an xbow, or throwing sidearm (just because they can) well either A.) Be rewarded more for specializing, or B.) Be limited to the weaker, less effective weapons. On the melee side of it (Archers/Pure wpf xbowers), it's more to bring the whole system into balance. The melee specialists get something (access to the best melee weapons), and the ranged specialists get both access to the best ranged gear, AND less people shooting at them, making them both more effective on the field, and more important for a team to have. The hybrids get to be a little of both, but get no reward beyond the inherent flexibility (at a cost!) of a hybrid build. Cavalry may be the most affected, since they often dual spec in polearms and another melee class, but that's perfectly fine (speaking as a cavalry player myself), since the horse itself is an inherent mobility advantage.

And as to how it can bring variety, I'm not sure what you mean. Right now, we see tons of poleaxes, danish/german Greatswords, Flamberges, and sideswords, and that's pretty much it. I can't remember the last time I saw anything in the lower tiers of weapons being used besides anyone but the greenest new players.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Ramsay on April 10, 2011, 12:37:45 am
So what you are saying is that 21/18, 18/18,15/21,15/24, and 18/21 builds would vanish?

Not to mention that some people LOVE playing a hybrid, and are willing to sacrifice the ability to use the absolute best melee weapons to be a hybrid with say... Javelins and a Battle fork? Or a medium Crossbow and a Longsword?

Or, that nobody will play a DEDICATED crossbowman or archer?

Or the fact that some people really don't mind having a mid tier weapon as their top gear, like a studded warclub, Swiss Halberd, Elite Scimitar/shield, or Awlpike?

You can't project your preferences onto the masses and say "this is what they'll do" because you really have no idea. There are people that roleplay the hell out of this game, people that play it casually, and people that min/max to get every advantage they can get. I feel it's worth a shot, and would bring more variety and balance to the game than ever before.

Calm down!(no offense meant)  :D
English is my second language so maybe sometimes I have trouble expressing myself.

Of course I meant people that min/max to get every advantage they can get  :wink:

ok...  *most* people with strength build would go minimum agi to use their heirlooms and put rest in str.
Some hybrids would also sacrifice their ranged/throwing for that.
And the problem is they would be *forced* to do so because  they spent time and effort to get those masterwork high tier melee weapons and would rather sacrifice build for ability to use them.
No builds would *vanish*. Just the overall tendency of what we see on the battlefield would change.

I personally just don't like the idea of forcing players to make their toons non-hybrid or less str just to use favorite/thrice heirloomed weapons.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Kophka on April 10, 2011, 12:55:38 am
Calm down!(no offense meant)  :D
English is my second language so maybe sometimes I have trouble expressing myself.

Of course I meant people that min/max to get every advantage they can get  :wink:

ok...  *most* people with strength build would go minimum agi to use their heirlooms and put rest in str.
Some hybrids would also sacrifice their ranged/throwing for that.
And the problem is they would be *forced* to do so because  they spent time and effort to get those masterwork high tier melee weapons and would rather sacrifice build for ability to use them.
No builds would *vanish*. Just the overall tendency of what we see on the battlefield would change.

I personally just don't like the idea of forcing players to make their toons non-hybrid or less str just to use favorite/thrice heirloomed weapons.


Hehe, sorry man, I wasn't chewing on you or anything, I was just arguing the point of making these changes. You've got the idea there though, we want hybrids to sacrifice something to be able to be a hybrid. This system would give them something to miss out on, and would reward specialists. About the heirlooms, just about any change, nerf, or buff is going to mess with peoples heirloom plans. At least this is a change for everyone, rather than a specific class of player. It's becoming increasingly obvious that something needs to change, and this may be the answer. Nothing needs to be nerfed, imo crossbows, throwing, 2 handers, 1 handers, are all where they should be, it's just that there is an overabundance of "lolrangers" which include pure melee wpf people carrying top tier crossbows, people putting 2-4 points into throwing w/o wpf to back it up, and pure ranged people getting to use the same melee weapons as people that stuck to them exclusively. This doesn't force anyone to change, it just offers a reward for sticking to a class, since being a flexible hybrid is an inherent reward already.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Ramsay on April 10, 2011, 02:05:08 am
Well... you got a sound argument there. After some thinking I've got to agree that if done correctly it can be a change for the better. There! I've said it! I was wrong!  :D
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Cup1d on April 10, 2011, 11:26:05 am
Quote
WPF Requirements for all weapons

IMHO it make game even more unbalanced. You just make horde of peasants with low-tier weapons (1-27 level. 40% of current population) and horde of high level chars with top-tier weapon (28-31+ levels, 60% of current population).


This idea cant balance crossbowman\2h or polearm build

Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
Strength: 15
Agility: 27
Hit points: 50
Converted: 12
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 5
Shield: 0
Athletics: 6
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 9
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 131
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 150
Throwing: 1


And for lolthrowers - you dont really need to use top-tier throwing weapons to be deadly.
They can use heavy axes or war darts or javelins. And heirloomed barmace.

Lolthrower build
Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
Strength: 24
Agility: 15
Hit points: 59
Converted: 6
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 8
Shield: 0
Athletics: 5
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 8
Weapon Master: 5
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 120
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 100

Alternative idea

On the other hand, there is something interesting in your idea.
What do you think about implementing:

1. Armor profeciency points
2. Horse profeciency points
3. Weapon profeciency points

With requirements about 100 points for Top-tier gear.

This idea can make Agility much more attractive, and can balance heavy armored xbowman\thrower\archers hybrids.

Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Kophka on April 10, 2011, 03:49:09 pm
(click to show/hide)

Well, I'm not sure about hordes of peasants, since it's not going to take 100+ wpf to use things above a club/cleaver/ or khyber knife. What you'll see, rather than hordes of peasants, is people having to decide whether they should specialize or hybridize. Even high level characters that decide to not specialize (like your level 31 guy that converted 15(!) points to use the top tier xbow with a non-top-tier two handed weapon. That is exactly the idea!!  :D  Look at what that hybrid gave up to use that crossbow. Doesn't that seem a whole lot better than this build we currently have
(click to show/hide)
Which of the two builds would you say deserves to be carrying both a top tier 2 hander AND a high tier crossbow? Imo, it's the one that actually had to give something up.

On the throwing issue, yes, PT 9 can be very deadly with even javelins or wardarts, but PT 9 is a very specialized build. If someone's going to stack their PT that much, with that level of wpf, be glad they're not running around with jarids, spears, or throwing lances.

And last, I feel that a system of wpf for armor or horses really would make the hordes of peasants you mentioned earlier. The current in-game definition of a peasant is somebody in leather or lower that can't afford, or meet the requirements for the better stuff (ignore the lvl 29 "peasants" with 150k gold saved up, they're just playing how they like).
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Cup1d on April 10, 2011, 07:22:56 pm
Hordes of peasants. Because with 150 wpf requirements you need 15/18 build to use Sword of War for example. And 18\18 build to use Longbow or Warbow. Make some math. This system force you to make standart builds. Lets call this Ultimate builds.  Say No to variety, creativity and freedom.

But with 100 wpf req, this can be more interesting.

About horse and armor prof.
This time horsemansip is too easy. You trade 4 skillpoints, mount courser, take lance and gain possibility to dominate in the field. No trade-off, win-win situation. Also, horse can charge. It is weapon of itself.

Armor. We have some invisible penalty to wpf when wearing armor. But with armor profeciency you can remove this penalty, just invest some amount wpf to Armor Profeciency and use your weapon. Clear and simple.


Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Kophka on April 10, 2011, 08:24:55 pm
Hordes of peasants. Because with 150 wpf requirements you need 15/18 build to use Sword of War for example. And 18\18 build to use Longbow or Warbow. Make some math. This system force you to make standart builds. Lets call this Ultimate builds.  Say No to variety, creativity and freedom.

But with 100 wpf req, this can be more interesting.

About horse and armor prof.
This time horsemansip is too easy. You trade 4 skillpoints, mount courser, take lance and gain possibility to dominate in the field. No trade-off, win-win situation. Also, horse can charge. It is weapon of itself.

Armor. We have some invisible penalty to wpf when wearing armor. But with armor profeciency you can remove this penalty, just invest some amount wpf to Armor Profeciency and use your weapon. Clear and simple.

Now you're using non-existant numbers to say it's a bad idea? Who gave you the idea that sword of war would require 150 proficiency? And longbow and Warbow already take massive amounts of wpf to be useable, so that's probably not the best example. With the system, as a 150 prof archer, you will lose the ability to carry the best melee weapons, but hey, welcome to balance. Just because you can't use the top 4 weapons in the melee categories doesn't mean there aren't 40 more weapons that you CAN use. I'm not sure why you think having the majority of the population using the same 5 weapons = variety, because that's what we have right now. This system would cause a lot more variety, enable a lot more creativity, and what does freedom have to do with it? If you want freedom, make a mod where you can equip anything at any time with no requirements at all. There has to be rules to bring balance to the game, you know what I mean?
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Memento_Mori on April 10, 2011, 09:56:57 pm

This idea cant balance crossbowman\2h or polearm build

Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
Strength: 15
Agility: 27
Hit points: 50
Converted: 12
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 5
Shield: 0
Athletics: 6
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 9
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 131
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 150
Throwing: 1



Seems balanced to me, 50 hp only 5 PS only 6 athletics.. a huge 9 Weapon master so that they can use top tier stuff.
Seems balanced, going to be honest this build would rock (using Kophka's idea) except when you get hit, by anything.
repeat again
Seems balanced to ME, just my opinion.

another thing to note is the conversion of 12 skill points to attain that much agility with that much str at lvl 31, not lvl 30, lvl 31.
seems pointless, I'd much rather more hp, more athletics, still use top tier 2h/pole arm and limit myself to the crappier crossbows & for my build to be complete at lvl 30, not lvl 31, because I usually get bored of my build by then..

Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
after 9 million xp I'm definitely bored and wanting to retire and try something even the slightest bit different not finally be able to test out my build to it's fullest lol. xD
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Kophka on April 10, 2011, 10:00:17 pm
Ty, Memento :).
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Riddaren on April 10, 2011, 10:14:50 pm
If you have the strength to hold a weapon you should be able to do so. Having WPF (skill) determine what weapons you should be able to grab instead of strength doesn't make any sense at all.
There is no need to remove realism in order to balance a game. The best solution would be to change the way wpf affects the effectiveness of weapons.

Example:
50 wpf = -25% damage, -25% speed.
100 wpf = (weapons stats)
150 wpf = +25% damage, +25% speed.

This (negative bonus with low WPF) would solve the problem without removing realism but instead making it more realistic.
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Beauchamp on April 11, 2011, 11:24:41 am
Yea no reason except more wpf, more skill point to spend and more money for better armor/weapon. Just look how poorly pure build do on the battlefield and how much hybrid top the scoreboard :rolleyes:

also if you get powned by an archer with 0 wpf  changing is weapon won't change anything you will most likely still get owned if he has a somewhat decent low tier weapon.

Although there is some good concept behind the idea (like for xbow )I m against anything that will make everybody more or less the same build

How can a min wpf requirement for every weapon bring more variety ?

For xbow a better and simpler solution would be to have a extremely terrible accuracy at 0wpf (butit seem to be hardcoded)
For throwing just increase time between projectile so that you can rush them.
Why ? it's like having a big sign saying "i'm slow as hell and cant aim for shit come and kill me."

this has some good points. but with good balancing of wpf requirements this still can work (for example some people use pike as a polearm as hybrids, if the pike will have relatively low requirements than there won't be a problem).

i think requirements should be set up in a way that it will limit mostly these people:
- those taking good xbows as a sidearm without to much of wpf
- those taking throwing lances/jarids/javelins/whatever without having to much of wpf
- archers taking long hafted spiked mace or any other weapon that is deadly even with a very few or no wpf at all
Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Bjord on April 12, 2011, 03:24:00 pm
As long as we leave balancing to the balancing team, I'm fine with this idea. At least some aspects of it.


Title: Re: WPF Requirements for all weapons?
Post by: Thalamond on April 12, 2011, 03:30:01 pm
Please no. So boring with restrictions like these..