WPF Requirements for all weapons?

[Ramsay]

So what you are saying is that 21/18, 18/18,15/21,15/24, and 18/21 builds would vanish?

Not to mention that some people LOVE playing a hybrid, and are willing to sacrifice the ability to use the absolute best melee weapons to be a hybrid with say... Javelins and a Battle fork? Or a medium Crossbow and a Longsword?

Or, that nobody will play a DEDICATED crossbowman or archer?

Or the fact that some people really don't mind having a mid tier weapon as their top gear, like a studded warclub, Swiss Halberd, Elite Scimitar/shield, or Awlpike?

You can't project your preferences onto the masses and say "this is what they'll do" because you really have no idea. There are people that roleplay the hell out of this game, people that play it casually, and people that min/max to get every advantage they can get. I feel it's worth a shot, and would bring more variety and balance to the game than ever before.

Calm down!(no offense meant) 
English is my second language so maybe sometimes I have trouble expressing myself.

Of course I meant people that min/max to get every advantage they can get 

ok...  *most* people with strength build would go minimum agi to use their heirlooms and put rest in str.
Some hybrids would also sacrifice their ranged/throwing for that.
And the problem is they would be *forced* to do so because  they spent time and effort to get those masterwork high tier melee weapons and would rather sacrifice build for ability to use them.
No builds would *vanish*. Just the overall tendency of what we see on the battlefield would change.

I personally just don't like the idea of forcing players to make their toons non-hybrid or less str just to use favorite/thrice heirloomed weapons.

[Kophka]

Calm down!(no offense meant) 
English is my second language so maybe sometimes I have trouble expressing myself.

Of course I meant people that min/max to get every advantage they can get 

ok...  *most* people with strength build would go minimum agi to use their heirlooms and put rest in str.
Some hybrids would also sacrifice their ranged/throwing for that.
And the problem is they would be *forced* to do so because  they spent time and effort to get those masterwork high tier melee weapons and would rather sacrifice build for ability to use them.
No builds would *vanish*. Just the overall tendency of what we see on the battlefield would change.

I personally just don't like the idea of forcing players to make their toons non-hybrid or less str just to use favorite/thrice heirloomed weapons.

Hehe, sorry man, I wasn't chewing on you or anything, I was just arguing the point of making these changes. You've got the idea there though, we want hybrids to sacrifice something to be able to be a hybrid. This system would give them something to miss out on, and would reward specialists. About the heirlooms, just about any change, nerf, or buff is going to mess with peoples heirloom plans. At least this is a change for everyone, rather than a specific class of player. It's becoming increasingly obvious that something needs to change, and this may be the answer. Nothing needs to be nerfed, imo crossbows, throwing, 2 handers, 1 handers, are all where they should be, it's just that there is an overabundance of "lolrangers" which include pure melee wpf people carrying top tier crossbows, people putting 2-4 points into throwing w/o wpf to back it up, and pure ranged people getting to use the same melee weapons as people that stuck to them exclusively. This doesn't force anyone to change, it just offers a reward for sticking to a class, since being a flexible hybrid is an inherent reward already.

[Ramsay]

Well... you got a sound argument there. After some thinking I've got to agree that if done correctly it can be a change for the better. There! I've said it! I was wrong! 

[Cup1d]

WPF Requirements for all weapons

IMHO it make game even more unbalanced. You just make horde of peasants with low-tier weapons (1-27 level. 40% of current population) and horde of high level chars with top-tier weapon (28-31+ levels, 60% of current population).


This idea cant balance crossbowman\2h or polearm build

Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
Strength: 15
Agility: 27
Hit points: 50
Converted: 12
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 5
Shield: 0
Athletics: 6
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 9
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 131
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 150
Throwing: 1


And for lolthrowers - you dont really need to use top-tier throwing weapons to be deadly.
They can use heavy axes or war darts or javelins. And heirloomed barmace.

Lolthrower build
Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
Strength: 24
Agility: 15
Hit points: 59
Converted: 6
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 8
Shield: 0
Athletics: 5
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 8
Weapon Master: 5
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 120
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 100

Alternative idea

On the other hand, there is something interesting in your idea.
What do you think about implementing:

1. Armor profeciency points
2. Horse profeciency points
3. Weapon profeciency points

With requirements about 100 points for Top-tier gear.

This idea can make Agility much more attractive, and can balance heavy armored xbowman\thrower\archers hybrids.

[Kophka]

(click to show/hide)

IMHO it make game even more unbalanced. You just make horde of peasants with low-tier weapons (1-27 level. 40% of current population) and horde of high level chars with top-tier weapon (28-31+ levels, 60% of current population).


This idea cant balance crossbowman\2h or polearm build

Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
Strength: 15
Agility: 27
Hit points: 50
Converted: 12
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 5
Shield: 0
Athletics: 6
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 9
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 131
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 150
Throwing: 1


And for lolthrowers - you dont really need to use top-tier throwing weapons to be deadly.
They can use heavy axes or war darts or javelins. And heirloomed barmace.

Lolthrower build
Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
Strength: 24
Agility: 15
Hit points: 59
Converted: 6
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 8
Shield: 0
Athletics: 5
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 8
Weapon Master: 5
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 120
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 100

Alternative idea

On the other hand, there is something interesting in your idea.
What do you think about implementing:

1. Armor profeciency points
2. Horse profeciency points
3. Weapon profeciency points

With requirements about 100 points for Top-tier gear.

This idea can make Agility much more attractive, and can balance heavy armored xbowman\thrower\archers hybrids.

Well, I'm not sure about hordes of peasants, since it's not going to take 100+ wpf to use things above a club/cleaver/ or khyber knife. What you'll see, rather than hordes of peasants, is people having to decide whether they should specialize or hybridize. Even high level characters that decide to not specialize (like your level 31 guy that converted 15(!) points to use the top tier xbow with a non-top-tier two handed weapon. That is exactly the idea!!    Look at what that hybrid gave up to use that crossbow. Doesn't that seem a whole lot better than this build we currently have

(click to show/hide)

Level 31
    * Strength: 21
    * Agility: 18
    * Hit points: 70

    * Converted: 6
    * Ironflesh: 7
    * Power Strike: 7
    * Shield: 0
    * Athletics: 6
    * Riding: 0
    * Horse Archery: 0
    * Power Draw: 0
    * Power Throw: 0
    * Weapon Master: 6

    * One Handed: 1
    * Two Handed: 157
    * Polearm: 1
    * Archery: 1
    * Crossbow: 3
    * Throwing: 1

Which of the two builds would you say deserves to be carrying both a top tier 2 hander AND a high tier crossbow? Imo, it's the one that actually had to give something up.

On the throwing issue, yes, PT 9 can be very deadly with even javelins or wardarts, but PT 9 is a very specialized build. If someone's going to stack their PT that much, with that level of wpf, be glad they're not running around with jarids, spears, or throwing lances.

And last, I feel that a system of wpf for armor or horses really would make the hordes of peasants you mentioned earlier. The current in-game definition of a peasant is somebody in leather or lower that can't afford, or meet the requirements for the better stuff (ignore the lvl 29 "peasants" with 150k gold saved up, they're just playing how they like).

[Cup1d]

Hordes of peasants. Because with 150 wpf requirements you need 15/18 build to use Sword of War for example. And 18\18 build to use Longbow or Warbow. Make some math. This system force you to make standart builds. Lets call this Ultimate builds.  Say No to variety, creativity and freedom.

But with 100 wpf req, this can be more interesting.

About horse and armor prof.
This time horsemansip is too easy. You trade 4 skillpoints, mount courser, take lance and gain possibility to dominate in the field. No trade-off, win-win situation. Also, horse can charge. It is weapon of itself.

Armor. We have some invisible penalty to wpf when wearing armor. But with armor profeciency you can remove this penalty, just invest some amount wpf to Armor Profeciency and use your weapon. Clear and simple.

[Kophka]

Hordes of peasants. Because with 150 wpf requirements you need 15/18 build to use Sword of War for example. And 18\18 build to use Longbow or Warbow. Make some math. This system force you to make standart builds. Lets call this Ultimate builds.  Say No to variety, creativity and freedom.

But with 100 wpf req, this can be more interesting.

About horse and armor prof.
This time horsemansip is too easy. You trade 4 skillpoints, mount courser, take lance and gain possibility to dominate in the field. No trade-off, win-win situation. Also, horse can charge. It is weapon of itself.

Armor. We have some invisible penalty to wpf when wearing armor. But with armor profeciency you can remove this penalty, just invest some amount wpf to Armor Profeciency and use your weapon. Clear and simple.

Now you're using non-existant numbers to say it's a bad idea? Who gave you the idea that sword of war would require 150 proficiency? And longbow and Warbow already take massive amounts of wpf to be useable, so that's probably not the best example. With the system, as a 150 prof archer, you will lose the ability to carry the best melee weapons, but hey, welcome to balance. Just because you can't use the top 4 weapons in the melee categories doesn't mean there aren't 40 more weapons that you CAN use. I'm not sure why you think having the majority of the population using the same 5 weapons = variety, because that's what we have right now. This system would cause a lot more variety, enable a lot more creativity, and what does freedom have to do with it? If you want freedom, make a mod where you can equip anything at any time with no requirements at all. There has to be rules to bring balance to the game, you know what I mean?

[Memento_Mori]

This idea cant balance crossbowman\2h or polearm build

Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
Strength: 15
Agility: 27
Hit points: 50
Converted: 12
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 5
Shield: 0
Athletics: 6
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 9
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 131
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 150
Throwing: 1

Seems balanced to me, 50 hp only 5 PS only 6 athletics.. a huge 9 Weapon master so that they can use top tier stuff.
Seems balanced, going to be honest this build would rock (using Kophka's idea) except when you get hit, by anything.
repeat again
Seems balanced to ME, just my opinion.

another thing to note is the conversion of 12 skill points to attain that much agility with that much str at lvl 31, not lvl 30, lvl 31.
seems pointless, I'd much rather more hp, more athletics, still use top tier 2h/pole arm and limit myself to the crappier crossbows & for my build to be complete at lvl 30, not lvl 31, because I usually get bored of my build by then..

Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
after 9 million xp I'm definitely bored and wanting to retire and try something even the slightest bit different not finally be able to test out my build to it's fullest lol. xD

[Kophka]

Ty, Memento .

[Riddaren]

If you have the strength to hold a weapon you should be able to do so. Having WPF (skill) determine what weapons you should be able to grab instead of strength doesn't make any sense at all.
There is no need to remove realism in order to balance a game. The best solution would be to change the way wpf affects the effectiveness of weapons.

Example:
50 wpf = -25% damage, -25% speed.
100 wpf = (weapons stats)
150 wpf = +25% damage, +25% speed.

This (negative bonus with low WPF) would solve the problem without removing realism but instead making it more realistic.

[Beauchamp]

Yea no reason except more wpf, more skill point to spend and more money for better armor/weapon. Just look how poorly pure build do on the battlefield and how much hybrid top the scoreboard

also if you get powned by an archer with 0 wpf  changing is weapon won't change anything you will most likely still get owned if he has a somewhat decent low tier weapon.

Although there is some good concept behind the idea (like for xbow )I m against anything that will make everybody more or less the same build

How can a min wpf requirement for every weapon bring more variety ?

For xbow a better and simpler solution would be to have a extremely terrible accuracy at 0wpf (butit seem to be hardcoded)
For throwing just increase time between projectile so that you can rush them.
Why ? it's like having a big sign saying "i'm slow as hell and cant aim for shit come and kill me."

this has some good points. but with good balancing of wpf requirements this still can work (for example some people use pike as a polearm as hybrids, if the pike will have relatively low requirements than there won't be a problem).

i think requirements should be set up in a way that it will limit mostly these people:
- those taking good xbows as a sidearm without to much of wpf
- those taking throwing lances/jarids/javelins/whatever without having to much of wpf
- archers taking long hafted spiked mace or any other weapon that is deadly even with a very few or no wpf at all

[Bjord]

As long as we leave balancing to the balancing team, I'm fine with this idea. At least some aspects of it.

[Thalamond]

Please no. So boring with restrictions like these..