cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Riddaren on July 07, 2012, 03:43:15 pm

Title: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Riddaren on July 07, 2012, 03:43:15 pm
Seriously, how come there are not ONLY randomly generated open flat maps on EU1 already?

I bet you all like teamplay and I know that crpg is supposed to be a teamplay based game with different classes (pros/cons) working together.

This is what would happen with open flat maps where everyone can see each other:

- People learn to stick with their team as they get spawnraped or ganked by cavalry if they don't (seeing all teamates and enemies helps a lot)
- Teams moving as one unit with different classes helping each other (eg. archers behind shielders defended by pikemen).
- Shield wall formations
- Less spawnraping and backstabbing by melee cavalry thanks to tighter enemy formations

After a while we have ARMIES fighting each other instead of the currrent "Free-for-all"-battles with people scattered all over the maps not using tactics at all.

Later on we will see more us of:

- Battle groups
- Tactics
- Formations

In the end, when all of this gets to "slow" / repetetive / boring we can start to increase game speed and/or buffing.
I know many of you dislike how slow crpg is right now but people need to learn to work together and teamplay before it can be done.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Fuma Kotaro on July 07, 2012, 03:44:48 pm
There are only a few clans that are teamplaying and this would give us even more cav spam
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 07, 2012, 03:46:25 pm
I remember one randomly generated flat open map with a river, I ran across the river, up behind the enemy shieldwall, then threw all my gear at their backs. :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: sF_Guardian on July 07, 2012, 03:46:52 pm
Open flat maps?
No wonder that this is a suggestion of a cav player, go spawnrape in hell.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Miwiw on July 07, 2012, 03:49:29 pm
Flat maps are getting boring after a time, they are also better for lancers and cav in general and harder to play for dedicated shielders or crossbowers. Village maps are the most balanced maps after all, you can hide behind a building and cav still has enough place to fight properly. Also without the ladders in crpg there is no roof camping.

Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 07, 2012, 03:50:45 pm
Open flat maps?
No wonder that this is a suggestion of a cav player, go spawnrape in hell.
Spawnraping is much more easy in village maps were all enemy infs and archers and HAs won't spot you 'cuss they've run inside a village.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 07, 2012, 03:51:35 pm
Village maps are the most balanced maps after all,
lol
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Fips on July 07, 2012, 03:53:36 pm
Yay, more boring camping pls!
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Fuma Kotaro on July 07, 2012, 03:54:47 pm
Actually flat maps are op for cav
Village maps are op for ranged and inf
Lets make a map with both and the flags only spawn around the village (max 5m away from the wall)
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: _Tak_ on July 07, 2012, 03:55:11 pm
This ain't going to happen because if it does then all players will whine more about cav and I am pretty much sick of hearing people cry about Cav every single day, especially crying about GK mostly
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Christo on July 07, 2012, 03:59:39 pm
Seriously, how come there are not ONLY randomly generated open flat maps on EU1 already?

Because the "randomly generated open flat maps" turn out to be full of hills, and nonsense like that.

I really suggest renaming battle mode to "Skirmish", or something like that though. Real Battles were fought on Open Plains.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Fips on July 07, 2012, 04:02:29 pm
Yea but in medieval time most of the battle are fight in open maps because all commander want cavalry support, on some of the village map cavalry will become useless, in those village maps people just charging at each other withou without having to use much tactics (Except against ranged), ranged gets a bonus on those maps, however on plain  maps people will start to use tactics and start to use construction gear such as siege shield, if on round 1 team a is raped completely, on round 2 they will start to think what kind of tactic they need to use to win

check the mongols battle, almost 100% of them are on open plains

You are always the first one to go spawnraping, who the hell cares what you think, srsly =O

Just keep towns/villages/open plains/others balanced like they are now. Open plains are fun for archers and cav, yeah, but just camping at a shield wall for some time on the beginning of each and every fucking round would be just a huge "fuck you" towards infantry.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Rheinhardt on July 07, 2012, 04:05:23 pm
What's all this "camping a shield wall is a huge 'fuck you' to infantry" talk. As an infantryman with a two-slot shield I love the chance to stand in the shield wall. If anything, its a 'fuck you' to the 2handers who otherwise dominate melee. And frankly, fuck 2handers.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Fips on July 07, 2012, 04:06:46 pm
What's all this "camping a shield wall is a huge 'fuck you' to infantry" talk. As an infantryman with a two-slot shield I love the chance to stand in the shield wall. If anything, its a 'fuck you' to the 2handers who otherwise dominate melee. And frankly, fuck 2handers.
Played shielder for 2 gens and it bored the hell out of me to stand in shieldwalls. But maybe that's just me.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Dalhi on July 07, 2012, 04:19:50 pm
Played shielder for 2 gens and it bored the hell out of me to stand in shieldwalls. But maybe that's just me.

No, not just you, that is the reason why I played DTV (old one) for less then 30 minutes after that I never joined that server again  :lol:. I rarely stand in shieldwalls and if I do it's just for a short while, then I always press "T" and do other stuff like stretching fingers etc.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Rheinhardt on July 07, 2012, 04:23:32 pm
Yeah I don't get that. I remember back in the proximity-reward days when most maps were for shield-walling on a bridge or such. The glory that was twenty shields facing twenty shields and the daring back-and-forth to strike and return to cover shall one day return... when people realize how fucking awesome it is.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Grumbs on July 07, 2012, 04:28:40 pm
I like variety. Town maps, racetrack maps (hold w and all go in circles), open maps, whatever. I think they all offer some kind of tactical approach for players. They all have some chokepoint or tactically advantageous positions, and they generally funnel players into certain areas so promote team play in that regard. I don't think I would enjoy only playing open field maps since the lack of cover results in a lot of standing around for players behind siege shields. I do like them, just couldn't play them all the time. I like maps that have some kind of flow to them with players generally on the move
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Gurnisson on July 07, 2012, 04:36:37 pm
Kill variety and only have the most boring maps going, that's your suggestion? No way. Standing for 3 minutes like a retard while waiting for your team to move is mostly the recipe for open plains. When you finally get to move you're so bored already that you rather want to find another server than continue playing on plains.

I can see that open plains are fun for cav who can run and pick off stragglers for 3 minutes without the main clash happening, but one shouldn't have all maps based on how one class has it.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: _GTX_ on July 07, 2012, 04:40:31 pm
Open flat maps? Those map are incredible boring, as many of the shielders is stating here.

Big open flat maps is gonna be awesome for cav, u can pretty much dominate the game. It is just a big fuck u to infantry, if we get more open maps. Since infantry is gonna be boring as hell, and not that useful on big open maps. The things u can do is very limited, u pretty much feel useless.

And plz stop with the realism arguements..... This is game, its suposed to be fun. And in my opinion, u should atleast get a few choises regarding how u would like to play it. Instead of being forced into a small block of people, because the cav/archers is too dominating.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Christo on July 07, 2012, 04:42:16 pm
And plz stop with the realism arguements..... This is game, its suposed to be fun. And in my opinion, u should atleast get a few choises regarding how u would like to play it. Instead of being forced into a small block of people, because the cav/archers is too dominating.

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I know you and your kind wants to be the 2h lul hero who can single-handedly defeat entire teams like in a Hollywood Movie, but some of us prefer teamwork over that.

Plain maps reward teamwork, yourself being against them so much just makes my assumptions correct.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: _GTX_ on July 07, 2012, 04:44:41 pm
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I know you and your kind wants to be the 2h lul hero who can single-handedly defeat entire teams like in a Hollywood Movie, but some of us prefer teamwork.

wow.... and u were the one talking about dumb stereotypes?

I just want to be able to have a few choises. I dont like being forced to play that 1 way. It doesnt seem like that much fun to me. U enter the server, and have to play the exact same way, everytime. Because u pretty much have no other options.

I did also state that it was my opinion as an infantry.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Overdriven on July 07, 2012, 04:51:29 pm
I love being in shield walls with my shielder. Those complaining that they hate it are just rambo's who obviously don't like team play. There should be a death match mode just for them. Shield walls actually make it feel like a real fucking battle. Not a random mob/rambos charging around eachother mindlessly.

I agree for variation, but at the moment 'variation' means an absolute shit ton of village maps which are horribly designed and badly balanced. More open plains would be very welcome, but they should also be designed open plains, not the random ones because that = mountains. Someone needs to get on it and design around 10 plains maps to go into the 60 odd map rotation we currently have.

PS. There are currently only 4 random plains maps in the entire rotation.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Havoco on July 07, 2012, 04:51:46 pm
Daily EU drama thread?
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: _GTX_ on July 07, 2012, 04:54:11 pm
I love being in shield walls with my shielder. Those complaining that they hate it are just rambo's who obviously don't like team play. There should be a death match mode just for them. Shield walls actually make it feel like a real fucking battle. Not a random mob/rambos charging around eachother mindlessly.

I agree for variation, but at the moment 'variation' means an absolute shit ton of village maps which are horribly designed and badly balanced. More open plains would be very welcome, but they should also be designed open plains, not the random ones because that = mountains. Someone needs to get on it and design around 10 plains maps to go into the 60 odd map rotation we currently have.
They are way more balanced, than a completely open plain. Cav will dominate on open plains. And i can see that u are in the GK clan.

Edit: just got reminded. I dont play EU_1 that much, because of the wait time and archers. So how the hell do u guys feel like u know exactly how i play? I never charge 3v1, i wait for my team in that situation, regrouping. And i can make some proper ganks with my teammates.

It surprise me how much u just assume.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Banok on July 07, 2012, 04:54:53 pm
hilarious suggestion from someone who AFAIK only plays cav.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Overdriven on July 07, 2012, 04:55:41 pm
They are way more balanced, than a completely open plain. Cav will dominate on open plains. And i can see that u are GK clan.

Cav don't dominate at all. Most open plains maps spend the first half with cav vs cav and by the time that's done most are dead. As long as infantry sticks together they have nothing to worry about. I've rarely seen open plains maps where cav has done any better than they usually do on village maps (village maps arguably easy because ninja cav round buildings).
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Tzar on July 07, 2012, 04:56:44 pm
No sry cav my old friends but no..... just no...
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Jacko on July 07, 2012, 04:58:07 pm
[Realism]
(click to show/hide)
[/Realism]

No. Variety. 
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Overdriven on July 07, 2012, 05:00:16 pm
No sry cav my old friends but no..... just no...

There are 4 plains maps in a 60 map rotation. You saying you can't handle just a few more?
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: sF_Guardian on July 07, 2012, 05:02:42 pm
There are 4 plains maps in a 60 map rotation. You saying you can't handle just a few more?

Yep, thats what I at least would state.
No need for a big cav rape, cav`s OP as it is, dun need to be buffed by map rotation.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Dalhi on July 07, 2012, 05:03:13 pm
Those complaining that they hate it are just rambo's who obviously don't like team play.

I don't see any connection between teamplay and standing still for like 2 minutes, it is not any kind of teamwork. This game doesn't allow to move in formations, there are too many variables, different movement speed etc. Team play on public servers is limited to cooperation between few players, most common is following the mob but that's kinda different story. Even all the range players that I know from TS don't even like to shoot from behind the shieldwall, and I really don't give a fuck how battles looked like, if I would like stand still in formations I would probably do it in Napoleonic Wars where players role play the most retarded period in the history of military.

Right now people play like they had no brain.

I really can't recall if they ever behaved otherwise in cRPG, avarage Native players are faar more competent teamplayers then the ones that we have in cRPG, I guess that is becouse of the fact that Native scene is more competetive, lots of players are in the clans that have regulary trainings, matches etc. that does the difference.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Riddaren on July 07, 2012, 05:05:41 pm
hilarious suggestion from someone who AFAIK only plays cav.

In that case I would rather want flat village maps 24/7 as they make it possible for me to backstab and get away from horse archers.
The onyl reason I posted this was to improve teamplay. Right now people play like they had no brain.

Besides I don't just play cavalry.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Overdriven on July 07, 2012, 05:06:54 pm
I don't see any connection between teamplay and standing still for like 2 minutes, it is not any kind of teamwork. This game doesn't allow to move in formations, there are too many variables, different movement speed etc. Team play on public servers is limited to cooperation between few players, most common is following the mob but that's kinda different story. Even all the range players that I know from TS don't even like to shoot from behind the shieldwall, and I really don't give a fuck how battles looked like, if I would like stand still in formations I would probably do it in Napoleonic Wars where players role play the most retarded period in the history of military.

Tell that to our hoplite clan. We've had some pretty epic shield wall battles on bridges ect after getting 20 odd guys into a shield walls against an enemy shield wall. The organisation and formation is perfectly possible through chat. I just prefer the realism of a shield wall battle to the zomg run in circles around each other and try and gank each other battles we have now. Just seems more exciting, but that's my personal preference. I'm not arguing to make every damn map a plains but I think a few more is reasonable.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Brrrak on July 07, 2012, 05:07:33 pm
I've never seen a wide-open, flat map where both teams actively play Medieval Battle Simulator 2003; this generally has only happened on maps with hills, or chokepoints, which people can set up the shield wall that is oft-vaunted (and oft-neglected, if you can move while in a shield wall instead of just standing still, I can't imagine that cohesion not giving you an advantage) and support it.  Wide-open, flat maps generally have lent themselves to both sides stretching out to one rank, however-many-players-on-your-team columns, running at each other and a few smart people going "Oh, we can put extra pressure there" and little pockets of fighting going on.  Small-scale individual tactics, nothing wrong with those.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Christo on July 07, 2012, 05:10:16 pm
Christo's going to expose this spoiler, I know it.

Thought it's going to be "enjoy".

Do it right man.  :wink:
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Riddaren on July 07, 2012, 05:23:03 pm
It's a bit dissapointing that people are too stupid to realize that one big blob fighting against another will indirectly nerf cavalry.
Right now people can't even follow the blob because they lose sight of them because of the map. This results in backstabbing as the enemy is scattered.

Using open flat maps will teach players to stick together. When they have learned we can use other maps as well. Maybe.
Also, to those of you complaing about spawn raping, do you ever wait for your teamates if you spawn early or do you just leave them behind?
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: sF_Guardian on July 07, 2012, 06:16:28 pm
It's a bit dissapointing that people are too stupid to realize that one big blob fighting against another will indirectly nerf cavalry.
Right now people can't even follow the blob because they lose sight of them because of the map. This results in backstabbing as the enemy is scattered.

Using open flat maps will teach players to stick together. When they have learned we can use other maps as well. Maybe.
Also, to those of you complaing about spawn raping, do you ever wait for your teamates if you spawn early or do you just leave them behind?

We want no big blob fighting eachother and we want no cavalry racing over the map with their F22 Raptor and couching everyone to death, accept it.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Adamar on July 07, 2012, 06:21:12 pm
This isn't new, open plains do force the infs to stick together and teamplay. It's only natural that they oppose that.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: sF_Guardian on July 07, 2012, 06:23:43 pm
This isn't new, open plains do force the infs to stick together and teamplay.

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We dont want us to be forced by making cav shitty op.
I`m playin to have fun (12/27 thrower), dun want to be forced to play it like Chess.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Protemus on July 07, 2012, 06:37:45 pm
I have to agree with Dalhi,that guy is so right...where is teamplay in standing 4 minutes on oposite spawns or even better,on oposite hills and wating for flags to apear,where is here FUN for ANYONE,that's not a teamplay for sure,as much as I know it's usually called CAMPING and DELAYING

I WANT VARIETY,SCREW REALISTIC HISTORICAL BATLLES !!!!
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Zanze on July 07, 2012, 06:39:19 pm
Na is full of open flat maps. You know what happens? Melee get shot to pieces by archers or killed by cav. No matter what you do, archers kite you until the cav kill you or simply surround you and shoot you from all directions. This isn't a perfect world where "armies" will fight. This is cRPG, where you will be kited to death by archers and couched by lancers.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Protemus on July 07, 2012, 06:40:22 pm
Na is full of open flat maps. You know what happens? Melee get shot to pieces by archers or killed by cav. No matter what you do, archers kite you until the cav kill you or simply surround you and shoot you from all directions. This isn't a perfect world where "armies" will fight. This is cRPG, where you will be kited to death by archers and couched by lancers.

You took the words from my mouths my NA amigo
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: sF_Guardian on July 07, 2012, 06:46:08 pm
Na is full of open flat maps. You know what happens? Melee get shot to pieces by archers or killed by cav. No matter what you do, archers kite you until the cav kill you or simply surround you and shoot you from all directions. This isn't a perfect world where "armies" will fight. This is cRPG, where you will be kited to death by archers and couched by lancers.

Finally someone who knows what he speaks about.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Adamar on July 07, 2012, 06:56:57 pm
Dont rush, advance together and get shields. Most open battles in EU 1 end with only meleers on the field for some reason.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on July 07, 2012, 07:11:09 pm
Seriously, how come there are not ONLY randomly generated open flat maps on EU1 already?

I bet you all like teamplay and I know that crpg is supposed to be a teamplay based game with different classes (pros/cons) working together.

This is what would happen with open flat maps where everyone can see each other:

- People learn to stick with their team as they get spawnraped or ganked by cavalry if they don't (seeing all teamates and enemies helps a lot)
- Teams moving as one unit with different classes helping each other (eg. archers behind shielders defended by pikemen).
- Shield wall formations
- Less spawnraping and backstabbing by melee cavalry thanks to tighter enemy formations

After a while we have ARMIES fighting each other instead of the currrent "Free-for-all"-battles with people scattered all over the maps not using tactics at all.

Later on we will see more us of:

- Battle groups
- Tactics
- Formations

In the end, when all of this gets to "slow" / repetetive / boring we can start to increase game speed and/or buffing.
I know many of you dislike how slow crpg is right now but people need to learn to work together and teamplay before it can be done.

you are right Riddaren about open maps increasing team play but you are talking to the wrong crowd, what you have on forums is very strong infantry rambo lobby, the + of post shows it, they want to have their rambo runs with as less distractions (ranged, cav) as possible, teamplay is not their way
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Zanze on July 07, 2012, 07:28:24 pm
Just want to add, I'm not one of those str crutching 2hers. I'm a 1h/hoplite. Not only do I counter cav by bringing a spear with me, I can also avoid getting shot by arrows. What usually happens is everything around me dies slowly and then I rear one horse in the front and then get couched in the back or simply trampled to death by 4-5 cav. OR, I try and move with my clan to kill the archers and they simply disperse and form a  shooting circle aka, firing squad.. The spearmen die first, then the cav come.

Luckily for you guys, you get to test out the theory of how well open plain maps work. Play NA1 for a day. Suck up that your ping will be dicks, bodies won't have collision when they die, and polestagger. Just play one day and tell us your experience in these open plains with pugs.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on July 07, 2012, 07:29:09 pm
Cav on an open plain, meh can deal with that. But on an open flat plain  :lol: think you missed Aprils Fools Day by quite a margin.

So lets break your suggestions down
Seriously, how come there are not ONLY randomly generated open flat maps on EU1 already?

I bet you all like teamplay and I know that crpg is supposed to be a teamplay based game with different classes (pros/cons) working together.

There is very little teamplay as it is as most 2H and polearms want to be some Japanese hero who can cut whole fields of troops down. Open plains lead to boredom and people running off trying to be all mighty hero and getting squashed by puny archers.


This is what would happen with open flat maps where everyone can see each other:

I dont want to see your mug i prefer coming behind and shoving my rod in your arse, this would limit teamplay as you so desire even further. As it would simply be who can reach each other first, yes granted youd have a few clans sticking together but after your teams run off what good can you do except get swarmed. Plus no cover = ranged delight, your horses would suffer as much as the infantry would, i prefer to not look like this when i come out of a battle

(click to show/hide)
[/color]

- People learn to stick with their team as they get spawnraped or ganked by cavalry if they don't (seeing all teamates and enemies helps a lot)

Cav already spawnrapes, this wouldn't change anything as people would still run off

- Teams moving as one unit with different classes helping each other (eg. archers behind shielders defended by pikemen).

People are not going to respec for a few stupid maps

- Shield wall formations

Already happens, on a small scale, and tend to be ineffective as cav can miraculously charge a wall of shields and break them apart

- Less spawnraping and backstabbing by melee cavalry thanks to tighter enemy formations

No would lead to more abckstabbing as cav would only be able to get their kills from behind

After a while we have ARMIES fighting each other instead of the currrent "Free-for-all"-battles with people scattered all over the maps not using tactics at all.

Later on we will see more us of:

- Battle groups
- Tactics
- Formations

In the end, when all of this gets to "slow" / repetetive / boring we can start to increase game speed and/or buffing.
I know many of you dislike how slow crpg is right now but people need to learn to work together and teamplay before it can be done.

Kinda already explained the flaws, so lets focus on the good points......So more people you assume would go cav....great fun more backstabbing bastards. High K/D yay, real cool when as you say its meant to be teamplay.

I really cant see any benefits of this ive just retired from a cavalry build soo....please explain the pros before suggesting something as radical as yay new maps. Plus your a cav player, your bound to hate the cramped maps that already lead to cavalry players K/D being as they are.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Angellore on July 07, 2012, 07:30:26 pm
The fact is, flat map would require something different than just brainless charge. Something different than running in circles inside little alleys. Something different than one team camping far best place on the map and the other team trying to conquer this place round by round.
I think it’s good reason to try this idea. Random plain maps always has some little terrain advantages in some places, which is the reason why teams camp there and don’t want to move even a bit forward for few minutes. Flat maps without giving advantages in any place to any team will require organization, and won’t prevent teams from moving forward step by step.

As addition to this idea, I think it would be great to have big, deployable, 3 slots, very heavy and hard to destroy shields in game, similar height, but wider than Heavy Board Shield (shielder can put this shield on the ground and later take it again), crouching (so shielders in front can hide their heads and let archers behind do their job), walking by pressing some button to activate it (every infantry would have same speed while walking, so they can move shieldwalls in organized way) and couchable pikes held by crouched pikemans (couched pike won’t let pikeman to move, but every horse hitting couched pike will stop and receive damage).
This way shield walls could look really amazing: crouched shielders in shield walls, behind them archers and crossbowmans, and between them couched pikes (and other infantry) to prevent shieldwalls being smashed by horses.
Still, I think it’s just a dream. Infantry don’t want tactics in this game. They just prefer brainless charge, and no cooperation at all, cooperation is “boring” in their minds. So it would be cool to see this in game, but I’m afraid it's impossible to coordinate by majority of cRPG players anyway.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Riddaren on July 07, 2012, 07:41:11 pm
you are right Riddaren about open maps increasing team play but you are talking to the wrong crowd, what you have on forums is very strong infantry rambo lobby, the + of post shows it, they want to have their rambo runs with as less distractions (ranged, cav) as possible, teamplay is not their way

Guess you are right Chagan.

Anyway, it's annoying to receive so much hate when your intention was to increase the "bad" behaviour of cavalry.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Tindel on July 07, 2012, 07:44:15 pm
Open maps could be fun if you removed all the fucking horses.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Oberyn on July 07, 2012, 07:44:26 pm
I really can't recall if they ever behaved otherwise in cRPG, avarage Native players are faar more competent teamplayers then the ones that we have in cRPG, I guess that is becouse of the fact that Native scene is more competetive, lots of players are in the clans that have regulary trainings, matches etc. that does the difference.

HAHAHA, yeah if by "Native" you mean those two servers where good players show up (averaging maybe 30-40 people between them), as opposed to the vastly more popular siege and tdm servers where people might as well be completely retarded. Taking that into account, the average cRPG player compared to the average Native one is a genius (and that's saying something...).
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Adamar on July 07, 2012, 08:18:38 pm
That makes sence, most native players are clanners playing organized matches. In crpg it's the opposite.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Overdriven on July 07, 2012, 09:29:52 pm
No surprises about a strong inf lobby here. Yet little do they realise that village maps really do help cav a lot. Bring a few pikes in an infantry formation and cav is very badly slaughtered. Heck any one who played in the huge multi clan tourney would know this. A lot of the maps the cav formations just had to fight each other because charging the inf was suicide with even slight organisation.

I'm guessing none of the inf here played in that or they'd know this.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: _GTX_ on July 07, 2012, 09:34:12 pm
you are right Riddaren about open maps increasing team play but you are talking to the wrong crowd, what you have on forums is very strong infantry rambo lobby, the + of post shows it, they want to have their rambo runs with as less distractions (ranged, cav) as possible, teamplay is not their way
No surprises about a strong inf lobby here.

Funny enough... the ones lobbying for more open maps is cav players. Atleast it was not an infantry creating the thread? we are just responding. U are the one wanting more maps of 1 sort.

And will u plz stop with the stupid stereotype? ''If they dont want open maps, then all of em are obviously rambo's/2h heroes''
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Overdriven on July 07, 2012, 09:38:09 pm
Funny enough... the ones lobbying for more open maps is cav players. Atleast it was not an infantry creating the thread? we are just responding. U are the one wanting more maps of 1 sort.

And will u plz stop with the stupid stereotype? ''If they dont want open maps, then all of em are obviously rambo's/2h heroes and so on....''

Well you guys get your lovely hilly village maps and town maps so why can't we have some open plains maps? And by lobby I meant inf lobbying against this  :? It's no surprise that a thread arguing for at least some more variation in maps that contains the words 'open' and 'flat' attracts an inf group that spew out something along the lines of 'NOOOO I can't take any more arse rape from lancers, my butt hurts to much already  :cry: '.

The really funny part is that with their fear of cav blinding them the guys here don't realise that having a wide open map with inf working together would cut down the back stabbing a lot. The really open plains maps I've played in (not hilly ones) often have pretty organised cavalry charges and stuff. The plus side being that inf can be a lot more prepared. It's just quite amusing to see the instantaneous negative reactions with people giving very little thought.

I can at least understand the 'no we dont like standing around for 3 mins' arguments. But anyone who spews something about cav being to OP deserves the lance of compensation shoved up their arse.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: sF_Guardian on July 07, 2012, 09:42:57 pm
@Riddaren:

This community is hard but far better than all other gamin communities.

Dont take it personally, its no hate against you, its just different players and playstyles crushing against eachother,
everyone lobbying for his own best :D
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Grumbs on July 07, 2012, 09:45:54 pm
To be fair the original proposition was why "there are not ONLY randomly generated open flat maps". The original post presents a very 1 sided case that most people probably won't agree with. I think the current ratio of open field/town map is generally OK, but would rather open field maps were a bit more rare than currently. I would say 1 open map per 3 with lots of cover or so
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Gnjus on July 07, 2012, 10:02:07 pm
The fact is, flat map would require something different than just brainless charge. Something different than running in circles inside little alleys.

That would be too much to expect from all the imbeciles playing this mod, its called utopia.



This community is hard but far better than all other gamin communities.

This community is filled with idiots who have nothing better to do then cry about "their" (as if they own it) class/weapon/whatever, most notably those who have a dedicated server for their kind (EU3) as they refuse to accept the fact that this is supposed to be a game based on teamwork and diversity instead of measuring the sizes of their micro-penises. Full cavalry battles in open field maps are the best thing you can ever imagine, those who played it in Native know that very well but we have to be realistic and admit we get bored very quickly if there is only one kind of maps, only one kind of unit dominating the battlefield, etc, etc. Diversity gives you replay value so we need it ALL, not just THIS or THAT.
As for the OP: i think there is more then enough open-type maps on EU1, i don't play that much lately but I'm practically forced to act as a piker even tho I'm specced as a full strength 2-hander. I'm slow in the open, can't evade couch, can't evade zillions of projectiles flying around me but still - instead of crying i choose to adapt and try to be of some use for my team, if not - i can always respecc/retire or play some other class via STF. Whining & crying does you no favors here, its not like CMP will allow 100% cavalry maps or 100% villages so half of the classes rape while the other half is useless, he has other forms of abuse he prefers to practice, like muting people who disagree with him and deleting their posts, your tears don't touch him as he has no soul.



Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Oberyn on July 07, 2012, 10:14:23 pm
That makes sence, most native players are clanners playing organized matches. In crpg it's the opposite.

Not really, the vast majority of native servers are filled to the brim with noobs. There is ONE battle server where pro's play (IG_battle server) and one duel server (Nditions), and that's it. Like I said, those two combined average at best 20-40 people. It's like some people don't really understand what an "average" means.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: bonekuukkeli on July 07, 2012, 10:44:01 pm
No. I don't want to see any random plains in eu-1. It's boring to stand behind trees and shield walls, waiting to be shot and defend against tens of cavs doing swipe attacks.

What I want to see, is more village maps where you can actually go and hide behind corners so cavs can't dominate so well (but they still do ok against low-awareness guys). And in village maps it's easier to hide behind corners from archer firing as well so... yep, I want to see more infantry maps.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Adamar on July 07, 2012, 10:59:16 pm
Not really, the vast majority of native servers are filled to the brim with noobs. There is ONE battle server where pro's play (IG_battle server) and one duel server (Nditions), and that's it. Like I said, those two combined average at best 20-40 people. It's like some people don't really understand what an "average" means.

Before my clan died and I left native for good, there where some people playing on ig battlegrounds and stuff, but the majority of the players where more interested in training with their clans and arranging weekly battles.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: justme on July 07, 2012, 11:04:23 pm
i love teamplay, but that always end like 2 side camping for 3 min before attacking.. i dont see teamplay in that
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Bryggan on July 07, 2012, 11:05:05 pm
As shielder/thrower I wouldn't mind open flat maps if there was better communication between infantry.  I usually try protect the rear from cav, but when you got four or five horses buzzing around it's kind of hard to notice that the main infantry blob has advanced and suddenly you're alone in the middle of the field, and friendly cav just can't save you.  So either the entire blob camps, which makes everything depend on the archers who will pick off the 2handers and polearms, or just destroy shields, which is very boring for infantry, or else we try advance which is damned hard to do cohesively.

Plus there's nowhere to advance to exactly.  Open plains might be ok if the flags spawned in the first 30 seconds as the two infantry blobs would know where everyone is going and they will end up clashing, while cav would just be support trying to distract range and polearms from the real fight.  Or maybe add another skill- tactics.  Only people with a certain level of tactics can give orders, instead of the usual spamming we hear all round long.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 07, 2012, 11:38:53 pm
Just sayin', on all my inf alts (I got like 10 alts), even my 1hs, It's never open plane maps that piss me off, I always like 'em, it's ALWAYS shitty maps like mustikkis boat/tavern map, Mustikki's town maps, stuff like that.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Gurnisson on July 08, 2012, 06:51:14 am
Just sayin', on all my inf alts (I got like 10 alts), even my 1hs, It's never open plane maps that piss me off, I always like 'em, it's ALWAYS shitty maps like mustikkis boat/tavern map, Mustikki's town maps, stuff like that.

At least there's something happening on those maps. It's not like you're roleplaying Snorelax for the first 3 minutes of every round like on plains (as infantry)
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Riddaren on July 08, 2012, 12:37:38 pm
Yep, thats what I at least would state.
No need for a big cav rape, cav`s OP as it is, dun need to be buffed by map rotation.

Then all open flat village maps should be removed as well. Then we can have mountain maps and tavern maps only.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: sF_Guardian on July 08, 2012, 12:41:19 pm
Then all open flat village maps should be removed as well. Then we can have mountain maps and tavern maps only.

Balance is fine as it is right now, I just see no reason to change it...
Wouldnt mind if one of the flat village maps would replaced by a field map, just dont want it to be too much....
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Renegat on July 08, 2012, 01:21:43 pm
Ok, let's take an exemple.
Yersteday (i think it was at 6 pm) we had an open flat map, (don't know if you were there). Most of gk were there, so they can speak about it too. I won't give any argument, just describe what happened.

First round : Quite balanced, no "teamplay" as you call it (no shieldwall etc) both team were cavraped.

Second, third, forth and last round : The same team won 4 times ; of course, it was the GK team with chagan, lungy and most cav (i was in the other one) ; the third round i tried to make the team camp near a very big tree (it was a realy open flat map, so nowhere to hide or protect against cav), a part followed me and camped it, the other part just got killed before reaching the tree. Once we reached it, we made a shieldwall, composed of 4 shielders (including me) (others were already dead). We died pretty fast, nothing to do when 7 or 8 cav charge you at the same time (we were only 10-15 camping this tree and we had only 3 or 4 poeple (including me) who had relevant weapon to defend against cav).

Forth round : This time most of the team managed to reach the tree, we hold pretty well, when we lost, there was only 10-15 poeple alive in the other team (which was a great thing, compared to other rounds).

Last round : We just wanted a mapchange, some camped the tree, some charged, we lost before reaching the 5th minute (so in less than 2 minutes).

Result : 4-1 (our only win was the first round, when no bannerbalance and number of cav in each team was pretty equal)

Riddaren, i also like random flat map as an infantry, but there is too many cav currently to make it fun for infantry, as i described it, we can't even do a shieldwall (which is totally useless anyway, cause shieldwall are relevant when you defend against rangespam, not against cavspam).

What i told here was just facts, GKs, who were here, can only approve what i just said.
Oh, and to the idiot who said that he wants an open flat map to have proper fight with ennemie lancers : Stop being such an hypocrite, you perfectly know that lancers are avoiding each others at the begginig of a round and mainly aim at inf, who are less risky target.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: _Tak_ on July 08, 2012, 01:25:03 pm
you perfectly know that lancers are avoiding each others at the begginig of a round and only aim at inf, who are less risky target.

Was there, I approve, that map is bugged, the river especially, when you ride across the river your character is like flying above the river, don't know why it happen, many lancers do avoid Cav and charge into infantry yes (

ive said it many times now, but people just lack the imagination to understand it, the amount of cav now is because the change of the lance angle,

new lance angle made lancers much less effective at killing other cav, as now you need to have your enemy in front of you to kill, before good lancer could take out 5 other cav in quick fight if they were better than them

when i made khans extravaganza cav tourney, it hit me that more than 90% of cav couldnt imagine a fight without dehorsing other player, before lance angle change aiming for the rider was the thing to do

so now imagine that in the battle you try and have a cav fight, which probably will get you dehorsed, how many people will keep trying cav fight before they realise going for infantry is much better ? sure cav fights still happen, but its not what it used to be, the cav fights for lancers were much more exciting and more people wanted to go for them than now, and we did. you had to "earn" your right to be riding a horse with so many dedicated anti-cav cav

every map started with big cav clash and only the survivors of that clash went for the infantry, now i see many cav going for infantry rather than cav and im not saint here, if i see 5 cav i know i cant take them all out with current mechanics, you can kill one and than get 4 of them on your back and be dehorsed or killed

the irony is that the change came from infantry, and without them realising it, it turned on them big
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Teeth on July 08, 2012, 01:53:03 pm
Random plains maps mostly end up in 'I camp my hill you camp yours' rounds. They should not be randomly generated but just created and added. I'm too lazy to make maps, but just open maps would be great, it forces tactics.

How I'd wish battles were the same as they were sometimes back in 2010, two huge shieldwalls skirmishing, waiting for a set time to mass charge. Awesome stuff.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: karasu on July 08, 2012, 02:25:49 pm
   Open flat maps don't increase teamplay and tactics.

   Teams simply cluster each other into a mosh pit desperately trying to avoid getting hit by ranged volleys, waiting for that "cav rape" from every direction, while watching the few solo heroes getting picked 1 by 1 by the enemy ranged/cav.

   This is in no way team play + tactics.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Riddaren on July 08, 2012, 02:31:29 pm
   Open flat maps don't increase teamplay and tactics.

   Teams simply cluster each other into a mosh pit desperately trying to avoid getting hit by ranged volleys, waiting for that "cav rape" from every direction, while watching the few solo heroes getting picked 1 by 1 by the enemy ranged/cav.

   This is in no way team play + tactics.

Maybe you are right. My thought was that flat open maps would help to improve the skill of people by making it more easy for them to stick with the team as they can see all teamates and enemies.
Also, the game speed seems slower if you can see far and doesn't get an enemy in front of you all of a sudden like on a village map.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on July 08, 2012, 03:06:03 pm
ill only add what i think is important thing that people miss out

when there are 3 village maps in a row where people go rambo etc. and after those you put open field map, the players brain is not switching from the gameplay of village map to the open map instantly, it takes couple of rounds for them to accommodate,  the most teamplay you will see will be toward the end of the map, and than its back to the village maps

it works just like when you are in the loosing team in some village map, and a small group of players find some place and camp it, all the dead players see them, that they are doing half decent by doing this, next round that place will get more players

Ok, let's take an exemple.
Yersteday (i think it was at 6 pm) we had an open flat map, (don't know if you were there). Most of gk were there, so they can speak about it too. I won't give any argument, just describe what happened.

ok lets stop here, your being biased already, at that time during that day our team were winning most of the rounds on the maps, so for you to focus on that map in this context i think it makes no sense

when byzantium have good squad on eu1 they are dominating no matter what map, would it make sense for me to claim that inf is op on village maps ? your team on that open map had i think equal number of cav to us, maybe you didnt notice all the dying cav early dunno
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 08, 2012, 03:14:28 pm
At least there's something happening on those maps. It's not like you're roleplaying Snorelax for the first 3 minutes of every round like on plains (as infantry)
When you say something happening then you mean the first round on the tavern map all cav insta charge and couch and couch even normal spawners who didn't even have to download the map, and all ranged just fire at the spawn points and the next round cav is 100% unplayable with half the map even being unreachable from horseback?

And that boat map sucks as well, only fun on melee only server when you camp the sail/chain.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Tzar on July 08, 2012, 03:16:43 pm
Funny how come all the cav players are so worried about how inf play an want to encourage so much team play an stuff..... it not because their 4 legged noob carriers would have a field day uhhh humm... lmao give it a rest all ready...
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Kafein on July 08, 2012, 03:18:20 pm
Open flat maps?
No wonder that this is a suggestion of a cav player, go spawnrape in hell.

Open maps don't give a great advantage to cav you know. Backstabbing isn't easy when you can't hide behind something. Still better than a city map ofc.

Actually archers get the greatest advantage because they can shoot down horses and men alike from afar and there is no cover.


Finally, I'd like to say that randomly generated "open plains" often result in these "open plains" being nepalese mountains, which are the worst maps of all. Maps that are actually flat, however, encourage teamwork without encouraging camping. If there is no hill to camp, people don't camp.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Overdriven on July 09, 2012, 12:28:13 am
Well had shieldwalls forming today. Worked a while for our team but the problem was there were to many rambos charging off in our team at start of round. We won two round doing it and then we were always over 10 men down by the time the wall got there. If it wasn't for ramboing heroes these maps would be easy.

Cav gets stuck on a shield wall usually because 2h/spears watch the rear plus weight of people makes them stop. A lot of cav died trying to charge us from behind.

The only problem with having plains maps is lack of commander system and the fact that there are too many ramboing idiots who play crpg. If it wasn't for those two things battle mode really would be battle.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Lactating Vegetables on July 09, 2012, 12:37:01 am
I actually got the 1st flat/non village map in ages and the amount of teamwork trippled, so people were actully staying together and worked as a team, not as a mass horde that runs around like headless chickens
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Strudog on July 09, 2012, 12:37:47 am
its a bad idea, just went 35-5 with my alt cav on a flat map
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Riddaren on July 09, 2012, 06:15:59 pm
The only problem with having plains maps is lack of commander system...

One of the biggest problems imo is that you can't even carry a banner without losing some vision.
This needs to be fixed. If it is I'm sure more players will take the role of carrying a banner.

I've suggested before that the banner itself should not be visible to yourself but only to others.
Instead it can be added as an icon in the HUD if you carry it.

Playing in first person is not an option... :wink:
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 09, 2012, 06:21:05 pm
I'm biased as cavalry, but I also can see more of the battle than infantry...

That being said, the ONLY time I ever see a tiny bit of teamwork from the infantry players is on open plains and steppe maps.  You have to rely on teammates when you can't camp behind a building.

And I agree with the person who said battle mode should be called skirmish.  NA1 map rotation isn't terrible (like na community) but it still seems like the majority of the maps belong on the siege server rather than the battle server.
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Riddaren on July 12, 2012, 10:35:20 pm
You have to rely on teammates when you can't camp behind a building.

Exactly, that's my point.

I'm not saying teamplay should be forced but if a certain map type makes it more rewarding than another I think there should be more of those maps.
The thing with city maps is that the team is split up into two or more groups already from start and they are split up even more. After a while you end up getting ganked in a dark alley.

Wish there were a server with only random open plains (small-medium sized without hills)...
Is there by any chance someone who would like to give that a try? I'm sure there are enough of us to fill such a server.

EU1 will probably get more open field maps in time. But most important is to get rid of all the maps with big hills and mountains.
It's not just that they are very favorable for ranged. They are boring and annoying if you play a melee character as fighting/moving on hill/mountain slopes is a pain in the ass.

Hill slope:
(click to show/hide)

Mountain slopes:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 12, 2012, 11:23:57 pm
I've been asking for either more random plains/steppes maps (since it's the best we got even considering all the hills and mountains), or just a server that only plays it.  Unfortunately the majority of people would not play there, at least in my experience of playing the original M&B and been playing warband since the betas.  It seemed like every "random" map would instantly get poll voted and changed.

To me, a battle is an engagement that happened between two military units on a "FIELD OF BATTLE".  AKA in the open world, on actual geography.  A skirmish or even a siege would be more accurate to describe most of the battle maps currently being used. 
Title: Re: Open flat maps on EU1 for increased teamplay and use of tactics
Post by: Teeth on July 12, 2012, 11:26:55 pm
The thing is, the plains should not be randomly generated cause the game will generate those hilly piles of shit. Just generate a few with the terrain generator, pick ones that are playable and implement those.