cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Rusty_Shacklefjord on April 15, 2012, 12:09:44 am
-
As things are now, strength-heavy characters are both significantly more durable and do significantly more damage than agility-oriented players. This would be fine if they were also significantly slower, however according to the game mechanics thread, "agility does not seem to have effect on swing speed."
I'm not saying that we should nerf strength players - but agility builds need some advantage other than foot speed to be comparable in effectiveness. I propose a modest buff to weapon master and the weapon proficiency stat. Either give us more points, or modify the # points per wpf mechanic to be less demanding. Again, according to the game mechanics thread, "To put this in perspective, a level 30 character with 3 agility, no weapon master, and 110 polearm proficiency would attack ~5% slower than a level 30 character with 27 agility, 9 weapon master, and 180 polearm proficiency if both characters were to use a speed 94 polearm. The absolute difference in time per attack between these two characters would be ~0.06 seconds."
As things are now, agility-oriented melee players are gimped compared to their strength-based counterparts. This is partially due to the weapon master skill being (in my opinion) borderline useless. If weapon proficiency gave a more significant bonus to speed and damage past ~100wpf, it would allow agile players to not only run faster, but also swing faster than the strong players, and equalize damage a little too. This would serve to increase variety and increase the difficulty a little, now that everyone seems to be so good at blocking.
Thoughts?
-
Thoughts? tbh i find str builds to be complete trash unless you have a shitload of team mates to guard your slow ass.. :lol:
Only thing i hate about str builds is that they can take a shitload of hits even when i use my mw morningstar some guys can take 4-5 hits before they go down :|
But again if i find them solo they are easy kills..
And i use a 21/21 build not full agi tho my last gen i was 18/24 polearm just aim for the head
-
I really don't think agility builds are at a disadvantage vs. strength builds. Maybe at more extreme levels like 30/9 vs 9/30 and beyond strength is viable where agility is not.
But at 15/24, 18/21, 21/18, 24/15, I feel that they are all pretty effective depending on weapon/playstyle/build.
-
There are two aspects of 'weapon speed';
1. The delay between consecutive swings
2. The speed of the actual swing animation
You can't allow aspect 1 to get much faster with agility, or agility characters would just run around double-hitting everyone (some already can). Aspect 2 should be more dependent on agility/weapon master, but right now I believe 1 and 2 are tied to each other in the engine.
-
I really don't think agility builds are at a disadvantage vs. strength builds. Maybe at more extreme levels like 30/9 vs 9/30 and beyond strength is viable where agility is not.
But at 15/24, 18/21, 21/18, 24/15, I feel that they are all pretty effective depending on weapon/playstyle/build.
I'm afraid to say that from 18/21 and up, these are considered balanced & strenght builds, only the 15/24 could be considered agility.
While agility builds are by no mean useless, it's just the fact that they're only really good to duel unsuspecting foe where you get the first and possibly second hit on them from behind.
In the big mob battles that happens 90% of the time in any given Battle server, strenght is king by far, they can just take bunch of hits and swing around netting kills in very few hits, meanwhile as an agility build, it's not unheard of to die in 1 hit and take more than 6 hits to kill people in mail with a strenght orientated build.
-
I've already mentioned it in another thread, but maybe it could be balanced a bit if STR didn't give extra HP, and if IF was decoupled from STR. You could then make a 10 IF AGI char.
-
I've already mentioned it in another thread, but maybe it could be balanced a bit if STR didn't give extra HP, and if IF was decoupled from STR. You could then make a 10 IF AGI char.
That doesn't seem appealing to me. So no.
I think the bonus after a certain amount of wpf, is not a very good suggestion. Other than that, I can hardly think AGI is underpowered. It is just underrated. In my opinion, the current balance between AGI and STR are very realistic. STR build can do well with no intelligence at all, but you need to utilize your brain if you have good AGI. STR builds can do well in mobs that is true. but why the hell you want to be in that mob fight if you are an AGI player, that you can just avoid that goddamn mob if you play smart.
Let me give you a post from the other thread regarding this issue:
STR chars suck against cavalry and ranged but they are kings of melee.
Recently I've made 36/3 peasant using cudgel. Muffin was on his agi 1H/buckler alt (he was killing almost everyone in melee combat). I had 95 HP and 8 body armor. He hit me two or three times with his super fast sword, I hit him once with my 12 PS cudgel, knocked him down and killed him with another overhead while he was lying defenseless.
That is major problem with STR builds. You need 5-20 hits to kill them and all they need to do is to hit you once or twice. And due to messed up weapon hitbox, lag, lucky chambers etc. STR builds are able to kill AGI chars quite often, and not because they were better opponent.
Smart players will simply abuse animations and the fact that chambered weapon speed is similar for all builds. Hold your weapon, block few attacks of an AGI whore, wait for your chance and release it, killing him with one blow. GG.
This is 100% true. So, very true. But that is also true that a 36/3 build have a much more bigger chance to be swarmed by an angry mob. Also let's not forget that an Agile player can outmanuever him in battle (not backpedalling). Well of course a 36/3 build is stronger against 27/12 build in that aspect, but that is reality that the stronger guy knocks down the weaker guy. But a 36/3 build have a very hard time against 15/24 in my opinion. Although, I think a slight buff to weapon master is really needed. Many people agree that high wpf does not worth it, in melee weapons.
After all no amount of armor and no amount of health makes you invincible. It does not make you 300 health, it can only give around 30 bonus Health, which can be taken off in one or two hit.
These are my thoughts, thanks for reading.
-
In my opinion it's just crazy how little WPF is really needed for builds. Hardly anyone goes past 3 weapon master if they use it all which is unfair to archers who have to put points into it if they want to hit anything while melee shoves those points into shield or IF
-
I've already mentioned it in another thread, but maybe it could be balanced a bit if STR didn't give extra HP, and if IF was decoupled from STR. You could then make a 10 IF AGI char.
What? No, AGI would give both extra hp, extra speed and some damage thanks to WPF, hell. no.
The OP suggestion seems fine, and I for one, would welcome a buff in a sea of nerfings.
-
What? No, AGI would give both extra hp, extra speed and some damage thanks to WPF, hell. no.
The OP suggestion seems fine, and I for one, would welcome a buff in a sea of nerfings.
What? Why? All I want is to decouple it from STR, not couple it to AGI. How would AGI give bonus to HP? And bonus to damage over WPF, well, yes, but PS is still a lot better, which remains coupled to STR, so...
-
If you buff wpf from WM you also need to nerf all range accuracy to accommodate the boost.
I think making run speed better would help a lot as well. People in full plate with 5ath run as fast me with 5ath and a leather jerkin :/
But with the MW thing, I think it needs to scale REALY hard. so MW 6 is 80 points, 7 is 120, 8 is 150 and so on, so that you get a real boost out of those last couple of points and keep the swing speed buff for the dexterous mofos, but also buff the WPF lose for weight to keep agi players in light/ultra light Armour.
just sayin is all.
-
the only solution is to nerf ranged
-
nerf cav polestun archers and throwing. and delete shields.
-
Somewhat agree. I fare pretty well against all but the plate-iest of armor wearers on my 11/27 one-hand rogue character,sometimes shield, 3 powerstrike; you notice the glances more on heavy armor, for sure, but speed bonus and maneuverability really help you to land your swings on their sweet spots. I also had a hilarious 6/33 shielder that used a Nomad Sabre with 2 PS that is slightly less effective, but still a very decent build against low-medium armor levels.
I'm all for buffing damage in any capacity as a counter for the unbalanced survivability high and even mid-tier armors afford, particularly with Ironflesh stacked. I don't think anyone should be able to survive more than 5 solid hits, ever. Weapon Master also definitely needs love. There is basically no reason to invest in it for a pure, single prof melee build.
I can't say I agree at all with slowing down the swing speed of Strength builds, though, or slowing down the game at all. Buff agi as needed to achieve a better balance, but please god don't make the game slower.
-
not sure the answer but i do agree SOMETHING needs to be looked at with this and adjusted.
right now the comparable uselessness of WPF makes the logical choice STR (even though I go balanced personally 18/21 currently but thinking about 21/18)
-
Only give WPF when you put points into agility, this will make WM actually useful for non-archer builds (or people who don't need 3 Weapon proficiencies).
-
The problem is the free wpf per level and that PS effect is very much based on speed bonus.
So in order to remove the desire 8 athletics jerks who have wonky hitboxes but can kill in 1-2 hits. And str mongers who can outswing agi players.
No prof for leveling, just wm gives prof.
Decrease effectiveness of low level PS and make am exponential curve for high level PS.
End result is, fast but weak or really slow and hard hitting. None of this I get both nomnomnom.
-
Just did 15/24, it's good for duels and it's decent for fighting multiple people in that you can just hold down the s key and be fine, but now that I'm 27/12, my effectiveness is just so much greater. Even though I'm a hell of a lot slower, I can still fight multiple people just as effectively and I can shrug off hits like it's nothing. Everything two shots you when you have 15 STR and 0 IF. Not to mention the added bonus of being able to use a bamboo spear reliably without glances, even on the overhead is great for adding to your versatility.
-
Just did 15/24, it's good for duels and it's decent for fighting multiple people in that you can just hold down the s key and be fine, but now that I'm 27/12, my effectiveness is just so much greater. Even though I'm a hell of a lot slower, I can still fight multiple people just as effectively and I can shrug off hits like it's nothing. Everything two shots you when you have 15 STR and 0 IF. Not to mention the added bonus of being able to use a bamboo spear reliably without glances, even on the overhead is great for adding to your versatility.
I'm with Tydeus on this one, I'm at heart an agility player, I played 12/27 and 15/24 builds for more than a year, they're incredibly fun, being quick and able to dance around is a great thing, dancing between enemy cavalry is great too, only real problem are good archers that doesn't really care about your speed but you can still do something about that, worst is having to fight circus fighters that spins around and instantly kills you on the backswing or because you glanced on their spinning black magic because you decided to use your speed to slash them in the back when they're busy dancing, bad mistake, I also find that jumping gives you +30 athletics for the duration of the jump, so I usually find myself running away from strenght pikers because they can jump back farther than I can run forward with 9 athletics and instantly kill me with the chainsaw haft of theirs, not to mention that even with full WM and 180 wpf in 2handed with a longsword isn't even enough to spam a pikeman unless they're a 2h 36/3 build with a pike in hand.
On the other hand, I've got a 24/15 alt and while my level of Fun isn't exactly on the same level of my agility builds, I'm just so much more viable at everything I do, I'm allowed a mistake or two without a problem at all, anyone I get offguard dies without the slightest hope of turning back and blocking with the exception of near full-strenght builds in heavy armor, killing people is just generally much easier, you're allowed mistakes and whoever you fight dies pretty quickly.
-
San had an idea a while ago that I really like.
Reduce the amount of "free" WPF. Each point of agility gives you extra WPF.
-
not to mention that even with full WM and 180 wpf in 2handed with a longsword isn't even enough to spam a pikeman unless they're a 2h 36/3 build with a pike in hand.
The problem with wpf and wpp is that it's set up in such a fashion that makes it easier for high str, PS builds to hilt slash than a high agi, WM build. When you think about what hilt slashing is, the ability to get a second swing in before your opponent gets his, you realize quite obviously, that it is ultimately a matter of speed; The earliest possible time after you click to swing, that your swing will be able to damage your opponent. Because agi builds have less damage, they have to be farther into their swing arc to be able to have a hit that won't glance.
To go further still, hilt slashes aren't the only place where being able to effectively use, and rely on, an earlier position of your swing arc to hit someone, is made easier for high str builds. This applies to each and every one of your swings, even after you just blocked an enemies swing. Indeed everyone can turn into their swings, but str builds are able to hit far earlier than agi builds and not have to worry nearly as much about glances. So you have to ask the question, does 1 point in WM even make you effectively faster than 1 point in PS and if so, is that speed advantage enough to even be worth mentioning?
-
Athletics is fine as it is, HOWEVER, weaponmaster is nearly useless unless you plan on putting WPF into more than 1 weapon type. Weaponmaster has an affect, but it's just so slight that really any other skill would be more valuable for those points instead.
-
The problem with wpf and wpp is that it's set up in such a fashion that makes it easier for high str, PS builds to hilt slash than a high agi, WM build. When you think about what hilt slashing is, the ability to get a second swing in before your opponent gets his, you realize quite obviously, that it is ultimately a matter of speed; The earliest possible time after you click to swing, that your swing will be able to damage your opponent. Because agi builds have less damage, they have to be farther into their swing arc to be able to have a hit that won't glance.
To go further still, hilt slashes aren't the only place where being able to effectively use, and rely on, an earlier position of your swing arc to hit someone, is made easier for high str builds. This applies to each and every one of your swings, even after you just blocked an enemies swing. Indeed everyone can turn into their swings, but str builds are able to hit far earlier than agi builds and not have to worry nearly as much about glances. So you have to ask the question, does 1 point in WM even make you effectively faster than 1 point in PS and if so, is that speed advantage enough to even be worth mentioning?
I honestly find that at this point, having higher WPF is only a gamechanger if you're fighting people with 120 ping and above as anything under that, the few milliseconds faster your swings are does no difference at all to them.
-
I honestly find that at this point, having higher WPF is only a gamechanger if you're fighting people with 120 ping and above as anything under that, the few milliseconds faster your swings are does no difference at all to them.
Considering the average player takes 210 ms or .21 of a second to react to an attack, and 190 WPF only hits 0.06 of a second faster than 110 wpf (94 speed weapon, faster weapon less effect wm has proportionally and absolutely)
and the attack window is around 350 ms total for most swings before they hit you
so, oh no, instead of 350 ms to react it is a whopping 6 ms faster, I have 344 ms to react. Subtract my 70 ping and 210 reaction time, the difference would be a 70 ms grace window of additional tiem to block vs a 64 ms grace window to block.
The speed is negligible, unless my ping is so high that that window of time gets smaller and smaller until I can't block if I wanted.
This also explains why latency is such a fuckhuge factor in cRPG for those who didn't realize it already
When i play with 30 ping I feel like i'm seeing the future compared to a typical 70-80 ping. 40-50 more ms to react, amazing.
-
2 words: three attributes
making 1 stat give both damage absorption and damage dealing is retard game design
-
I see only 1 reason why people still go much agi - more WM to make some hybrid character with some xbow, I dont see any other reason to go agi, because some str tincan with long weapon is way better.
-
2 words: three attributes
making 1 stat give both damage absorption and damage dealing is retard game design
Simple but elegant, I like it.
-
I've already mentioned it in another thread, but maybe it could be balanced a bit if STR didn't give extra HP, and if IF was decoupled from STR. You could then make a 10 IF AGI char.
You'd have to increase significantly the amount of HP given by IF, otherwise you'd end up with only 55 hp even with 10 IF and people would die too fast. Hybrid builds which can't put many points into IF would also be left with between 35 and 50 hp at most (if IF gave 4 hp per point for example) while STR builds (and other pure builds), which only have to put points into PS and a few into ath, would still be able to afford a lot of IF and would still have much more hp than other builds. It just isn't a solution imo.
Regarding WM, you forgot to take the WPF reduction from armor into account. WPF has the most effect from 1 to 100 iirc (below 100 you actually deal less damage than normal), but a STR build (which obviously usually uses heavy armor) has barely 110 without any WPF, so he'll lose a lot of WPF due to this armor. For example, with playing with byrnie and light mail on my 36/3 STR build with 111 wpf, I've got about 100 wpf after the reduction from armor. When playing with the heaviest gear available (gothic with bevor, weimar helmet, heavy gauntlets & black greaves) it goes down to 60. And then I do see a big difference in speed and a slight one in damage.
Your agi build with 180 WPF probably wouldn't be using heavy armor, so you'd probably still have about 160-170 effective WPF. That's 100 more than the STR build in armor, so the speed bonus is much better and the agi build gains damage equal to about 2 PS.
Imo WPF is important for STR builds as long as you're using heavy armor, so that you still have about 100 effective WPF, if you're playing with light / medium armor it's probably not worth it. Agi builds do get a lot more speed if the STR build is playing in heavy armor (which is the case for most of them).
You're also not taking into account the fact that agi builds are much more polyvalent than str builds. STR does give you both damage & hit points, but that's the only things it gives you. You need STR for both PD & PT, but no one would play an archer / thrower with pure STR because you need a lot of WM (and thus agi) to hit anything. On the other hand, agi gives access to a lot of other roles (that pure STR can't do, but that pure agi & balanced builds can) like shielder, cavalry, archer, thrower, xbowman (because of the WPF requirements), hybrid builds (you won't have enough WPF for 2 weapons with 1 or 2 WM) and of course anything that requires speed (like rageball runner). The only role of a pure STR build will be to fight with the mob and do the killing (he's too slow to do anything else and will probably get gang banged alone) but he's obviously incredibly effective at it. Balanced builds will have a lot of obvious roles through shielders, cav, archers, etc... They're also able to play solo in battle and get away from tough situations while STR aren't.
The issue at the moment imo is that there aren't a lot of things that pure agi builds can do that is much better than what balanced builds would do. They're good as 13 ath runners in rageball or 13 shield trolls but that's about all. I don't think buffing WM would help them a lot, it'd probably benefit balanced builds much more.
-
What the fuck is this notion that strength builds need to or should use heavy armor?
It blows my mind that people think that is logical even.
The thing that makes strength builds so fucking amazing at melee is that when you use them in light armor they move with similar speed to a balanced build in medium-heavy armor EXCEPT they take the same amount of hits to die as the medium-heavy balanced build.
So, Similar movement, similar hits to die.
But the damage output. Strength build does sooo much more damage.
What cons? People wonder why I never wear much more than a gambeson yet take 4 hits + to die on brunchlady... in a dress.
Look, I don't need to convince anybody how OP it is, because I'm just going to sit here and enjoy it. If you guys actually nerfed it, I wouldn't be able to slaughter droves of people without being conscious.
And I like killing enemies without realizing it.
-
What the fuck is this notion that strength builds need to or should use heavy armor?
It blows my mind that people think that is logical even.
The thing that makes strength builds so fucking amazing at melee is that when you use them in light armor they move with similar speed to a balanced build in medium-heavy armor EXCEPT they take the same amount of hits to die as the medium-heavy balanced build.
So, Similar movement, similar hits to die.
But the damage output. Strength build does sooo much more damage.
What cons? People wonder why I never wear much more than a gambeson yet take 4 hits + to die on brunchlady... in a dress.
Look, I don't need to convince anybody how OP it is, because I'm just going to sit here and enjoy it. If you guys actually nerfed it, I wouldn't be able to slaughter droves of people without being conscious.
And I like killing enemies without realizing it.
You usually don't have more than 20-30 more hp than balanced builds if you're playing a 36/3 build with 10-11 IF. Using a gambeson will only let you take 1 more hit than a balanced build with the same armor, unless you're facing someone with very low PS who deals only 10 damage to someone with 20 armor... You're also forgetting that glances will almost never happen on someone with 20 armor while they will on the 40-50 armor a balanced build usually has. You might be as fast as them using a gambeson but you're certainly not as tough (except maybe against pierce / blunt).
With light armor having so many hp is not worth it (I'd rather have 5 ath and be very fast than having average speed in order to survive only 1 more hit). STR is viable without heavy armor but still, I wouldn't use anything below byrnie. You do keep very high damage but unlike balanced builds you aren't polyvalent at all so pure STR does have its drawbacks even with light / medium armor.
-
Almost all weapons do pierce damage on thrust. This negates medium armor builds and enables slow strenght builds very sexy option in rushing lightly armored with decent speed and crushing all resistance. In another forum topic someone mentioned to buff thrust damage on non antiarmor dedicated weapons such lances, pikes (not awlpikes) and some swords but make it deal slashing damage.
This will increase armor value on non tincan builds but also increase damage output to light armor builds especially fake slow ninjas which are fast as medium armor balanced builds but cannot use properly agility to avoid being hit.
Also this change will be more historically correct cuz spears were not very effective against mail and also swords were modernized to deal with plate (shorter more stabbing).
Nerf steel pick. This weapon is sick :!:
-
As a balanced build (18/21) with 7 wm, I have probs with the high agi characters quite often. They swing so fast and still do decent damage to me even if i use full plate.
If a high str char uses a fast weapon then yeah their speed can be surprising, but I hardly think agi needs a buff.
EDIT: I actually re-read the whole thread and I can see some of the points.
For me, personally, because I like to use plate and flam, i dont see the wm as being a waste if it can negate some of the negative effects from using plate.
I sometimes wonder where I would put my stats if i levelled past 30. Would I go str or agi?? Both directions have plusses and minuses for me.
-
Agreed. Some of us have been saying this since forever, never gotten heard.
STR is OP. Buff Agi (wpm and perhaps some athletics?) without breaking everything.. pls. (Everything means in this case netcode breaking swings etc.)
AGI sucks so much that people don't even think about it, just complain the game is slow and boring with their DGS and STR builds...
Extreme agi is cool for rageball though. (Where running speed is important)
-
You usually don't have more than 20-30 more hp than balanced builds if you're playing a 36/3 build with 10-11 IF. Using a gambeson will only let you take 1 more hit than a balanced build with the same armor, unless you're facing someone with very low PS who deals only 10 damage to someone with 20 armor... You're also forgetting that glances will almost never happen on someone with 20 armor while they will on the 40-50 armor a balanced build usually has. You might be as fast as them using a gambeson but you're certainly not as tough (except maybe against pierce / blunt).
You forget about having good gloves, which maximizes armor/weight ratio but at a higher cost. Even if they're not loomed, you can get to a decent 30ish maybe even close to 40 body armor with looms, and that's more than enough to take QUITE a few hits with a high strength build. My 24/15 with ~ 50 body armor takes so many hits, I doubt 30-36 strength and 35-40 body armor will be much different in amount of hits to kill.
-
You forget about having good gloves, which maximizes armor/weight ratio but at a higher cost. Even if they're not loomed, you can get to a decent 30ish maybe even close to 40 body armor with looms, and that's more than enough to take QUITE a few hits with a high strength build.
Word. +3 Gambeson and +3 Heavy Gauntlets give 40 body armor. Same thing as regular mail hauberk and mail mittens in regards to body armor values but 5.5 weight lighter.
-
So when I'm going from 170wpf to 220 and when am I get buildy back :(
Serious face: Perhaps each point of agi should give you 10 points wpf and a greater buff to run speed, say another 2% on what it already does. That's another 240 wpf for my build which would put me on about 180, but then again that would give the no WM users a nice boost too... Feck it just crank the curve up on WM 8WM gives.
It looks like such an arbitrary linear curve.
WM1 WM2 WM3 WM4 WM5 WM6 MW7 MW8 MW9 MW10
30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 110 120
The req per point goes up so hard that it makes MW really pretty average. Once you get to MW6 your pretty much just getting around 10 WPF... and that is pretty shit house TBH. I guess balancing the bows to maintain their accuracy is a reason kind of to not buff WM.
-
I'm kind of okay with how WPF is currently, but for the love of God reduce the penalty of rough terrain on athletics.
As the penalty is percentage-based, the higher your athletics the more you are penalized by moving on rough terrain. (hills, indoors, etc.)
When using a character with high athletics you live and die by your ability to move. The fact that you suddenly move at a snails pace because you are inside or walking down a hill or because it's raining is ridiculous.
-
I'm kind of okay with how WPF is currently, but for the love of God reduce the penalty of rough terrain on athletics.
As the penalty is percentage-based, the higher your athletics the more you are penalized by moving on rough terrain. (hills, indoors, etc.)
When using a character with high athletics you live and die by your ability to move. The fact that you suddenly move at a snails pace because you are inside or walking down a hill or because it's raining is ridiculous.
I love when some guy with 4 athletics in heavy armor outruns me with my 9 athletics in cloth armor.
-
Maybe add boosts when you reach certain levels of wpf, hit 170 and you get an additional speed percentage.
Also I'd like to see higher athletics decrease the impact of terrain like hills and stairs, I think it's dumb that if I have 8 athletics, I can't run up some stairs.
-
Flatten the wpf curve, ah fuck it. Not going to type that again. I think I typed that for the first time a year ago, one year further and cRPG is still slow as fuck and strength has the advantage.
-
Agreed. Some of us have been saying this since forever, never gotten heard.
STR is OP. Buff Agi (wpm and perhaps some athletics?) without breaking everything.. pls. (Everything means in this case netcode breaking swings etc.)
AGI sucks so much that people don't even think about it, just complain the game is slow and boring with their DGS and STR builds...
Extreme agi is cool for rageball though. (Where running speed is important)
You sir, lack conviction in your statements. A majority of my Buff cRPG post regarded buffing athletics and WPF speed, yet you opted to give it a negative. For shame. :?
-
You sir, lack conviction in your statements. A majority of my Buff cRPG post regarded buffing athletics and WPF speed, yet you opted to give it a negative. For shame. :?
Yeah its not like the bulk of your ideas in that post where aimed at buffing ranged and its not like Thomek is a ninja with barely any armor and a frequent target for ranged, oh wait.
-
I love when some guy with 4 athletics in heavy armor outruns me with my 9 athletics in cloth armor.
Lol those siege maps with the sticky floors.
-
Yeah its not like the bulk of your ideas in that post where aimed at buffing ranged and its not like Thomek is a ninja with barely any armor and a frequent target for ranged, oh wait.
Let's see, 12 suggestions, 2 of them regarding ranged and 1 regarding low end throwing weapons. So 9 of 12 had nothing to do with ranged and a large portion were buff to athletics and WPF speed increases.
So yeah, its EXACTLY like the bulk of them were not buffs to ranged. It is exactly like I said, ragers read ranged buff, quit reading, hit negative.
-
No don't buff agi, i used to be leve 34 and with 10 WM and extremely high riding. I spam the shit out of tons of people on rage ball and most of the them don't got the chance to fight back. Current system is fine. Don't listen to the 0.06 speed difference, its bullshit. I clearly swing alot faster with 10 WM than with 0 WM, with 0 Wm i cant spam no shit with quaterstaff, 10 WM i can spam a hell out of it
Edit: you have no idea how OP archers / xbowman will become if Wps got buff.
-
I honestly found an amazing dueling build in the 21-21 hits good with quick footwork allowing me to get the jump on people. And since I WM doesnt do much anyways I've focused on putting my extra 3 pouts into IF making me pretty tough and still fairly quick when i wear my loomed heraldic mail with my loomed plate mittens.
I do agree with the fact we need to change how ineffective WPF is for melee which it should be a primary attribute that people should invest at least a couple of points in. But as of right now it's only really needed for archers and even pure throwers can scrape by with 3 wm and be accurate as they need to be.
-
No don't buff agi, i used to be leve 34 and with 10 WM and extremely high riding. I spam the shit out of tons of people on rage ball and most of the them don't got the chance to fight back. Current system is fine. Don't listen to the 0.06 speed difference, its bullshit. I clearly swing alot faster with 10 WM than with 0 WM, with 0 Wm i cant spam no shit with quaterstaff, 10 WM i can spam a hell out of it
Edit: you have no idea how OP archers / xbowman will become if Wps got buff.
Lol fucking really, comparing 0 WM to 10 WM.
-
Players worried that allowing more wpf will buff ranged too much. Why not have the ranged wpf's stay as they are, and melee wpf's DONT suffer the same insane increase in cost. That way you can have 18/21 with 160 archery wpf, or 18/21 with 250 melee wpf. Problem solved, agility gets its reason d'etre back, ranged doesnt get massive boost. Thank me later.
-
You sir, lack conviction in your statements. A majority of my Buff cRPG post regarded buffing athletics and WPF speed, yet you opted to give it a negative. For shame. :?
I lack conviction because there are 2 things I've been lobbying for since big patch.
This is:
Change cav, I think they are way too effective atm. It's a lame way to die, adding lameness to the game. 1hitting madness.
Second is the advantages of STR vs AGI in a melee footsoldier perspective. I want to balance that.
Since big patch I've written a huge amount of material on this subject, complete with graphs and graphics. I'm on your side in some points, but I haven't seen any will or hint or solution or anything coming from devs on this. Giving up I guess.
In the meantime cRPG becomes what it becomes.
Cav is too powerful: Produces more ranged counters.
*produces more random deaths. Don't come bitching about awareness, I see the very top players getting killed by cav all the time. It's simply impossible to keep awareness on so many targets for the human brain. Random death is not fun.
STR is too powerful: cRPG has slow duels where hits matters less
*then players complain it is slow...
All in all, elements that make the game lamer are growing.
I downvoted your post without reading the whole even. I understand that NA is a different reality, but cav is very popular atm in EU. Never saw that many cav as nowadays. And more ranged accuracy? Are you aware of what insane shots skilled ranged players pull off? Some of your ideas were just badly researched, there are many things not possible, or too time consuming to fix in the warband engine. (WSE can fix some things, but it is a very very time consuming process. It must be worth the effort.)
Believe me, if there is a veteran lobbyist it's me :) Protip: 1 small change at a time. Not a bunch of suggestions in one post..
Other than that, if this reply is a bit retarded it's because I'm a little bit drunk. :) Cheers!
-
I think that the mod is quite balanced in this aspect. When I tried an agi build, I did swing a little faster (not too much, but noticeable), and moved faster.
What do you expect? To swing double as fast as str builds or what?
-
I think that the mod is quite balanced in this aspect. When I tried an agi build, I did swing a little faster (not too much, but noticeable), and moved faster.
What do you expect? To swing double as fast as str builds or what?
If str hit twice as hard, then yes, agi should swing twice as fast. Your post bullshit btw, agility doesnt affect swing speed, only wpf does.
-
Str doesn't his twice as strong, unless you go with 0 PS and the str build got 13 PS.
-
Str doesn't his twice as strong, unless
Aha!
No, on serious note: STR has many more advantages to agility, the ONLY disadvantage is movement speed.
-
Read the whole thing for fuck sake, you need an extreme build compared to another extreme build to have 2x damage, my own 32/9 will not do twice the damage of a 9/32 build and that 9/32 shouldn't his twice as fast.
-
In my opinion it's just crazy how little WPF is really needed for builds. Hardly anyone goes past 3 weapon master if they use it all which is unfair to archers who have to put points into it if they want to hit anything while melee shoves those points into shield or IF
This x1000. WPF needs to be more necessary. Right now it's so secondary its basically a preference.
-
Aha!
No, on serious note: STR has many more advantages to agility, the ONLY disadvantage is movement speed.
"The only disadvantage is movement speed", makes it seem like movement speed isn't a big deal. A agi build could go in, hit a strength build and then get out of his range before the strength build could strike back.
Even if strength could do twice the damage [which Bob is correct in saying that it'll have to be 13PS compared to 0], then why should agi swing twice as fast? You never explicitly state a reason, and if it did swing twice as fast than agi would be significantly better than strength.
Morty, why should WPF and more specifically WM matter more? Ranged needs it more compared to melee as melee needs shield/IF more than ranged. Should we make IF matter more since it is a secondary skill and is only done on preference?
-
In my opinion the big problem with agi builds is the speed reduction for athletics.
As speed reduction for athletics is percentage-based high athletics builds are penalized FAR more than low athletics builds.
Agi characters are the only infantry that are highly penalized because of the map.
That's why I hate those maps that have tons of hills or little bumps. A str build - which already moves slow as shit - is barely affected, whereas an agi build moves as fast as a snail.
WPF doesn't need a buff. High athletics characters are also really great until you walk on a sand dune or fight in a castle.
Reduce the athletics penalty to high athletics builds.
-
IMO, reduce the gradient penalty to agi players.
-
As it is now, WM is purely for ranged & hybrids. For other characters it's one of those "I have extra points and don't know what to do with them" stats.
-
Not only do hills murder your movement speed, but just about every floor that isn't stone does too, especially the wood floors on the castle walls. It makes no sense for a wooden floor to decrease your movement speed by 50%.
-
RIGHT!
Make ath scale like MW. So 1 ath give a 5% speed boost, 2 gives 6% 7%,8%,9%,10%,11%,12%,13%,14% that way the 12/27 has distinct speed boost against the 24 agi char. Which means archer hunters and horse hunters will really be able to move, and the difference between the 21/18 str balance build will be pretty big.
21/18 with 6ATH = 45% boost
18/21 = 56%
15/24 = 68%
12/27 = 81%
Now it might be too much of a boost over all so perhaps the base couple points of ath should be lowered a bit, so maybe it should start 2%.
-
^No, think about it for a moment
-
I do agree that one of the biggest issues is the movement speed % decrease that agi builds face...
Not only becuase the % decrease is larger than that of a str build, but also because agi builds are more RELIANT on footwork as one of their tactics.
This would also help balanced builds in a lesser degree
-
The main problem is, WM is a useless skill to non-hybrid infantry and cavalry.
-
^I fail to see that as an issue
-
^I fail to see that as an issue
-
we need 1 hp for ever 3 levels..
NEW AGE OF CRPG..
Done.
-
^No, think about it for a moment
^No, think about it for a moment
-
The main problem is, WM is a useless skill to non-hybrid infantry and cavalry.
So, how are we gonna make cavalry take Power Throw? Make Shielders take HA? Same logic, conclusion, you're a retard.
-
Agility builds are a joke. Strength is just so much better to stack (more damage, more health, reduction of speed penalty associated with high weight from equipment). My 30/12 10 IF 10 PS 4 Ath 0 WM build absolutely demolishes everyone, both in duel and in battle. I use a 49 cut Mighty Great Long Bardiche and 1 shot people quite often, because the mod is a joke and people don't have battle awareness or even know how to block left, for that matter. Honestly, Agi needs a buff and/or the WPF curve/system needs to be readjusted, so that I can't get away with the ridiculousness that is my build.
-
Agility builds are a joke. Strength is just so much better to stack (more damage, more health, reduction of speed penalty associated with high weight from equipment). My 30/12 10 IF 10 PS 4 Ath 0 WM build absolutely demolishes everyone, both in duel and in battle. I use a 49 cut Mighty Great Long Bardiche and 1 shot people quite often, because the mod is a joke and people don't have battle awareness or even know how to block left, for that matter. Honestly, Agi needs a buff and/or the WPF curve/system needs to be readjusted, so that I can't get away with the ridiculousness that is my build.
I second this. I play a balanced char usually (21/18), but I tried 27/15 as well as 12/30.
High strength chars have a disitinct advantage.
I do not really have an answer to this, but I think it could be balanced a bit better. I think high-Agi-chars are still too slow compared to the damage-output and less HP...
-
With 12 agi I'm not that much slower than Logen who has 24. I also have more armor than him. Only thing he has and I don't is high acceleration which helps a lot but I have high HP.
-
With 12 agi I'm not that much slower than Logen who has 24. I also have more armor than him. Only thing he has and I don't is high acceleration which helps a lot but I have high HP.
Yeah, that's because Strenght reduces the speed penalty from armor weight.
So, arguably, the fastest builds in the game would be 18/21 or 21/18 unless you go 15/24 or 12/27 or 9/30 in Cloth and Light armor. For Medium and Heavy, 18/21 or 21/18 will probably be king.
-
What sort of bullshit is that, if that was even half true, I'd be much faster in my plate armor with my 32/9 build than I am right now.
-
What sort of bullshit is that, if that was even half true, I'd be much faster in my plate armor with my 32/9 build than I am right now.
It's true to an extent. It doesn't make your character faster than he or she could ever be at a given level of Athletics + Agility, it just reduces the penalty of weight slowing you down, so that your speed is closer to the maximum it could be given Athletics and Agility.
It's why people complain about being chased down by plate juggernauts. They are usually peasants with less than 2 athletics, and those high strength plate-crutching monsters with 3-4 athletics (like me) have enough strength to reduce the weight penalty to movement speed significantly, so their true speed is closer to 3-4 athletics than it is to 0-2 athletics.
It's just another awesome (and admittedly ridiculous) perk of Strength, which already gives +HP and +Damage innately, in addition to allowing for higher ranks of IF and PS, two awesome, awesome skills.
-
I can't believe this stuff comes out now, after 2 years, although I've had suspicions about smth like this before.
Where is WaltF4 when u need him? Are these just rumours, or are there some truth to this?
-
I can't believe this stuff comes out now, after 2 years, although I've had suspicions about smth like this before.
Where is WaltF4 when u need him? Are these just rumours, or are there some truth to this?
Mostly skill descriptions quietly added during various patches. In the absence of WaltF4, rampant speculation like mine is just taken as truth.
-
Strength gives damage, health, and speed. So nice!
After seeing the description, there is no reason not to go balanced with a strength lean. If I had a pure melee build, I would be 24/21.
-
I've seen no proof that strength Lowers the burden of heavy armor on your character. None at all. Only speed you gain is from Agility and athletics as far as I know.
Where are you getting that from? If that were true, it'd be full retarded.
-
A dev confirmed that higher strength means the burden of armor is less than at 0 strength. Have never seen any statistics to back this up.