Equalize weapon master & agility builds

[Rusty_Shacklefjord]

As things are now, strength-heavy characters are both significantly more durable and do significantly more damage than agility-oriented players. This would be fine if they were also significantly slower, however according to the game mechanics thread, "agility does not seem to have effect on swing speed."

I'm not saying that we should nerf strength players - but agility builds need some advantage other than foot speed to be comparable in effectiveness. I propose a modest buff to weapon master and the weapon proficiency stat. Either give us more points, or modify the # points per wpf mechanic to be less demanding. Again, according to the game mechanics thread, "To put this in perspective, a level 30 character with 3 agility, no weapon master, and 110 polearm proficiency would attack ~5% slower than a level 30 character with 27 agility, 9 weapon master, and 180 polearm proficiency if both characters were to use a speed 94 polearm. The absolute difference in time per attack between these two characters would be ~0.06 seconds."

As things are now, agility-oriented melee players are gimped compared to their strength-based counterparts. This is partially due to the weapon master skill being (in my opinion) borderline useless. If weapon proficiency gave a more significant bonus to speed and damage past ~100wpf, it would allow agile players to not only run faster, but also swing faster than the strong players, and equalize damage a little too. This would serve to increase variety and increase the difficulty a little, now that everyone seems to be so good at blocking.

Thoughts?

[Tzar]

Thoughts? tbh i find str builds to be complete trash unless you have a shitload of team mates to guard your slow ass.. 

Only thing i hate about str builds is that they can take a shitload of hits even when i use my mw morningstar some guys can take 4-5 hits before they go down 

But again if i find them solo they are easy kills..

And i use a 21/21 build not full agi tho my last gen i was 18/24 polearm just aim for the head

[Shatter]

I really don't think agility builds are at a disadvantage vs. strength builds. Maybe at more extreme levels like 30/9 vs 9/30 and beyond strength is viable where agility is not.

But at 15/24, 18/21, 21/18, 24/15, I feel that they are all pretty effective depending on weapon/playstyle/build.

[Phew]

There are two aspects of 'weapon speed';
1. The delay between consecutive swings
2. The speed of the actual swing animation

You can't allow aspect 1 to get much faster with agility, or agility characters would just run around double-hitting everyone (some already can). Aspect 2 should be more dependent on agility/weapon master, but right now I believe 1 and 2 are tied to each other in the engine.

[Vkvkvk]

I really don't think agility builds are at a disadvantage vs. strength builds. Maybe at more extreme levels like 30/9 vs 9/30 and beyond strength is viable where agility is not.

But at 15/24, 18/21, 21/18, 24/15, I feel that they are all pretty effective depending on weapon/playstyle/build.

I'm afraid to say that from 18/21 and up, these are considered balanced & strenght builds, only the 15/24 could be considered agility.

While agility builds are by no mean useless, it's just the fact that they're only really good to duel unsuspecting foe where you get the first and possibly second hit on them from behind.

In the big mob battles that happens 90% of the time in any given Battle server, strenght is king by far, they can just take bunch of hits and swing around netting kills in very few hits, meanwhile as an agility build, it's not unheard of to die in 1 hit and take more than 6 hits to kill people in mail with a strenght orientated build.

[zagibu]

I've already mentioned it in another thread, but maybe it could be balanced a bit if STR didn't give extra HP, and if IF was decoupled from STR. You could then make a 10 IF AGI char.

[Ronin]

I've already mentioned it in another thread, but maybe it could be balanced a bit if STR didn't give extra HP, and if IF was decoupled from STR. You could then make a 10 IF AGI char.

That doesn't seem appealing to me. So no.

I think the bonus after a certain amount of wpf, is not a very good suggestion. Other than that, I can hardly think AGI is underpowered. It is just underrated. In my opinion, the current balance between AGI and STR are very realistic. STR build can do well with no intelligence at all, but you need to utilize your brain if you have good AGI. STR builds can do well in mobs that is true. but why the hell you want to be in that mob fight if you are an AGI player, that you can just avoid that goddamn mob if you play smart.

Let me give you a post from the other thread regarding this issue:

STR chars suck against cavalry and ranged but they are kings of melee.

Recently I've made 36/3 peasant using cudgel. Muffin was on his agi 1H/buckler alt (he was killing almost everyone in melee combat). I had 95 HP and 8 body armor. He hit me two or three times with his super fast sword, I hit him once with my 12 PS cudgel, knocked him down and killed him with another overhead while he was lying defenseless.

That is major problem with STR builds. You need 5-20 hits to kill them and all they need to do is to hit you once or twice. And due to messed up weapon hitbox, lag, lucky chambers etc. STR builds are able to kill AGI chars quite often, and not because they were better opponent.

Smart players will simply abuse animations and the fact that chambered weapon speed is similar for all builds. Hold your weapon, block few attacks of an AGI whore, wait for your chance and release it, killing him with one blow. GG.

This is 100% true. So, very true. But that is also true that a 36/3 build have a much more bigger chance to be swarmed by an angry mob. Also let's not forget that an Agile player can outmanuever him in battle (not backpedalling). Well of course a 36/3 build is stronger against 27/12 build in that aspect, but that is reality that the stronger guy knocks down the weaker guy. But a 36/3 build have a very hard time against 15/24 in my opinion. Although, I think a slight buff to weapon master is really needed. Many people agree that high wpf does not worth it, in melee weapons.

After all no amount of armor and no amount of health makes you invincible. It does not make you 300 health, it can only give around 30 bonus Health, which can be taken off in one or two hit.

These are my thoughts, thanks for reading.

[Spanish]

In my opinion it's just crazy how little WPF is really needed for builds. Hardly anyone goes past 3 weapon master if they use it all which is unfair to archers who have to put points into it if they want to hit anything while melee shoves those points into shield or IF

[Bobthehero]

I've already mentioned it in another thread, but maybe it could be balanced a bit if STR didn't give extra HP, and if IF was decoupled from STR. You could then make a 10 IF AGI char.

What? No, AGI would give both extra hp, extra speed and some damage thanks to WPF, hell. no.

The OP suggestion seems fine, and I for one, would welcome a buff in a sea of nerfings.

[zagibu]

What? No, AGI would give both extra hp, extra speed and some damage thanks to WPF, hell. no.

The OP suggestion seems fine, and I for one, would welcome a buff in a sea of nerfings.

What? Why? All I want is to decouple it from STR, not couple it to AGI. How would AGI give bonus to HP? And bonus to damage over WPF, well, yes, but PS is still a lot better, which remains coupled to STR, so...

[FRANK_THE_TANK]

If you buff wpf from WM you also need to nerf all range accuracy to accommodate the boost.

I think making run speed better would help a lot as well. People in full plate with 5ath run as fast me with 5ath and a leather jerkin :/

But with the MW thing, I think it needs to scale REALY hard. so MW 6 is 80 points, 7 is 120, 8 is 150 and so on, so that you get a real boost out of those last couple of points and keep the swing speed buff for the dexterous mofos, but also buff the WPF lose for weight to keep agi players in light/ultra light Armour.

just sayin is all.

[Vibe]

the only solution is to nerf ranged

[Camaris]

nerf cav polestun archers and throwing. and delete shields.

[Malaclypse]

Somewhat agree. I fare pretty well against all but the plate-iest of armor wearers on my 11/27 one-hand rogue character,sometimes shield, 3 powerstrike; you notice the glances more on heavy armor, for sure, but speed bonus and maneuverability really help you to land your swings on their sweet spots. I also had a hilarious 6/33 shielder that used a Nomad Sabre with 2 PS that is slightly less effective, but still a very decent build against low-medium armor levels.

I'm all for buffing damage in any capacity as a counter for the unbalanced survivability high and even mid-tier armors afford, particularly with Ironflesh stacked. I don't think anyone should be able to survive more than 5 solid hits, ever. Weapon Master also definitely needs love. There is basically no reason to invest in it for a pure, single prof melee build.

I can't say I agree at all with slowing down the swing speed of Strength builds, though, or slowing down the game at all. Buff agi as needed to achieve a better balance, but please god don't make the game slower.

[Elindor]

not sure the answer but i do agree SOMETHING needs to be looked at with this and adjusted.

right now the comparable uselessness of WPF makes the logical choice STR (even though I go balanced personally 18/21 currently but thinking about 21/18)