cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: BlueKnight on April 08, 2012, 01:28:32 am

Title: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: BlueKnight on April 08, 2012, 01:28:32 am
     Please guys this is bullshit. HS from throwing lance to my cataphract took 55% hp away, but what is funny, 1 hit of 1h weapon to the legs of my horsie took the same dmg.... C'mon! Don't tell me that HS from throwing lance = 1h hit to legs... If so, I want infantry which gets hit into legs to stop moving and archers who are hit into hands to stop shooting. My Cataphract for which I pay over 3100 upkeep simply dies from 1 danish hit, just as rouncey, but rouncey is faster and more maneuverable. What is important, is that the armour of the heavy horses is down to their fucking ankles and it means it is easier to kick the legs of the horsie than hit them with a weapon, but on the server every under-head attack to the horsie is counted as leg-hit...

Do something about it. Heavy horses die like flies and they aren't worth their price. What is good is that they look awesome but that's all. Ofc bump dmg is nice as well but while charging straight, you risk a loss of the horse.

PS. today I hit a very strong 2h guy 3 times while I was on around 70% speed and after he survived 3 stabs of +1 heavy lance, he 1-hitted me with Highland claymore.
Until I hit a footmen to the head with H-lance, he won't die from 1 hit. I really think that the difference between lance and heavy lance are just ridiculous. 10 more length by sacrifice of 4 dmg and 11 speed rating... There is some kind of lack of sense. Also other, even not so strong chars survive a lot. Have forgotten to say that I had 61 body armour on me and 18 str and 3 IF...

I know you will all say that cav is already op and bla bla and EZ mod and bla bla - bullshit. Nowadays heavy horses are dying like flies, you need to hit sb 2 times with heavy lance to kill him ( it's not that hard to hold bottom block to be honest ). In fact 80% kills of cav are thx to cavs' intelligence and choosing the proper way (ofc all the backstabs are included in that 80%) the rest of the kills are lucky or spawnkills...

I don't give a fuck on archery, just do sth with heavy lance or just delete this horsies-naked-legs thing please... hitting horsie to the head with a good weapon equals hitting to the legs with shit and currently when the angle of attack is low, it's not that hard to move aside and just swing, because your effective range at that angle will be better.

Sorry for emotions.

Yours faithfully,
BlueKnight
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Radament on April 08, 2012, 02:11:47 am
so basically you want the opportunity  to buy some shoes for your horse ?
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 08, 2012, 03:09:30 am
Damn right, buff throwing! That lance shouldve been a 1hit kill.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Rainbow on April 08, 2012, 03:15:40 am
no
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on April 08, 2012, 03:19:10 am
Oh pfft.

PFFT I SAY PFFT!
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: obitus on April 08, 2012, 03:32:12 am
BUFF CAV.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Jarlek on April 08, 2012, 03:37:49 am
Damn right, buff throwing! That lance shouldve been a 1hit kill.
Exactly!
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: San on April 08, 2012, 03:59:17 am
Horses dying earlier is good. I use a heavy horse and my horse dies reasonably enough. Large warhorse does die in 2-3 hits easily enough, and I  think that's fine, since I can be reasonably safe against damage in the first place.

I do agree that legs are a dumb place to put the vulnerable place.

The vulnerable spot should be the head, should do more damage, and revert legs to previous.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Smoothrich on April 08, 2012, 04:22:02 am
Increased damage is fine, however the problem is that the "legs" are perceived as having 0 armor rating which completely negates the upkeep costs and speed/maneuver penalties that heavier horses have.

Keep the nerf, but scale it to armor somewhat, so plated chargers still get whalloped hard by melee but not quite as much by cheap awful 1 hand cut weapons.

Also, remove this penalty on friendly fire.  9/10 damage to a horse's legs is done by a teammate trying to killsteal your pr0 cav lancer plays.  One kill hungry low awareness infantry even with the reduced friendly fire damage can do grievous amounts of team wounding to your horse because of this.  It makes it even more difficult to play cavalry then it already is, please adjust.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Overdriven on April 08, 2012, 04:29:55 am
Will just say this...my plated charger got 1 shot by a 2h (heavy bastard sword) to the legs.

Not joking at all. The leg damage has completely negated heavy horses in melee situations. If a plated charger can be 1 shot then something is wrong.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Joker86 on April 08, 2012, 04:31:50 am
1st: buff infantry intelligence

2nd: buff cav again to a reasonable level


You need step 1 first, to be able to do step 2. I agree cav is UP at the moment, but only "on the paper". In reality cav is fine, because so many players suck in fighting cav. And I don't mean focusing and killing a cav player, I mean not being killed by cav at all. Most players on the servers behave like there would be no cavalry at all, running around like lemmings. That's the reason why you have to suffer from such ridiculous nerfs like onehittable horses.

But because cavalry doesn't need a stat buff, but only l2p, you already have the potential there to deal with cav effectively. And some players do, and those are the moments where it become obvious how UP cav actually is, leading to threads like this one here.

But I am against every cav buff unless I see that random players on the servers grow a brain. Which means I won't support cav buff for a very long time  :|
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: autobus on April 08, 2012, 05:21:14 am
no
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Idzo on April 08, 2012, 05:24:56 am
Damn right, buff throwing! That lance shouldve been a 1hit kill.

Please, leave me alone...
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Reddy on April 08, 2012, 06:14:45 am
    but what is funny, 1 hit of 1h weapon to the legs of my horsie took the same dmg.... C'mon!

This was me.  8-)
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Diomedes on April 08, 2012, 06:29:29 am
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Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Xant on April 08, 2012, 06:55:54 am
Nerf cav
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Serfonz on April 08, 2012, 08:02:43 am
:|

I never knew horses had 0 armour in the legs.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Leesin on April 08, 2012, 08:09:28 am
I do find it stupid for the legs to be uber-vulnerable simply because that the heavier, slower more armoured horses are actually the ones easier to hit in the legs and basically avoid the armour altogether, thus really in the long run a cheaper, faster, more manueverable horse is superior.

If anything I think the Arabian Warhorse is OP, well when it is +3 loomed more so, it's ridiculously maneuverable for the speed it also moves at, it can turn on a dime and be back to full speed in a second, yet it's cheaper than any heavy horse, including the destrier, it's far superior for melee cav than armoured horses right now.

Sure it takes less damage than the bigger horses at range, but if you are aware of anyone aiming at you it's so easy to dodge shots with it. In melee with anything hitting your horses legs, it negates any worth of a heavy horse and automatically makes the better choice the Arabian, because you are far more likely to avoid that situation or keep range from an enemy.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Diomedes on April 08, 2012, 09:05:16 am
Arabian Warhorse is pretty silly, especially with higher riding or looms.  It's maneuverability easily compensates for its apparent fragility.  I suggest that it cost more or that heavy horses cost less.

I'm with Leesin, down with the Arabian warhorse's stats
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Rebelyell on April 08, 2012, 10:00:48 am
I can agree on someway... but cav is kind of strong class where is no place for mistake, that save us from situation where we have
serve 50 50.... where 50% is cav and 50% archers

and blu sorry again but lances works fine for me...
you have length or hit power, we cant have situation where heavy lance is longest and strongest and yes I have 1 MW hevy lance
but that true we have to do something with leg damage on some heavy horses....


ahh and to evryone

IF you hate nerf cav to much archers will eat your azzzz because cav and archers are natural enemies... that work bought side sooo keep balance betwen them and

 
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on April 08, 2012, 10:07:07 am
The leg thing is retarded, what should be done is removal of leg damage bonus, buffing of damage to horse head, buffing of throwing, nerfing of bump damage (heavy horses still have the advantage of riding over someone taking half their HP atm, which is fucking retarded balance-wise).
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: _Tak_ on April 08, 2012, 10:51:59 am
Any sort of weapon that has above 1 damage can deal some damage to your horse if it was hit in the legs. Horses legs damage thingy really needs to balance again. If you ride any sort of horse at full speed and if it was hit by some 2 handed / polearm it can deal a massive amount of hp. Not telling lies but its true. If you would like to keep the nerf like this to CAV, then reduce all horses's price

Edit : PEOPLE WHO HATE CAV SHOULD PLAY SIEGE
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Rebelyell on April 08, 2012, 10:55:00 am
i was bumped by half arab in reall life and i have to say then I had problem with walking for 4 days after that....
I dot think then any armor should help me against that hit... and heavy horsy with plate can hit you even stronger
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Brrrak on April 08, 2012, 11:15:09 am
so basically you want the opportunity  to buy some shoes for your horse ?

Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh!  Can we get the opportunity to buy armor for our horses? 
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on April 08, 2012, 11:21:26 am
hm where is the info that horse legs have 0 armor ? i knew the damage was increased but not the way like this, interesting

@Leesin its not like arabian warhorse has been nerfed the most in the crpg (-6 maneuver) out of all horses, it still needs nerfs right ? :>
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Overdriven on April 08, 2012, 01:34:32 pm
@Leesin its not like arabian warhorse has been nerfed the most in the crpg (-6 maneuver) out of all horses, it still needs nerfs right ? :>

Not to mention the increase of riding requirement.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Kafein on April 08, 2012, 04:10:40 pm
Leesin, the light horses are more or less fine, if anything they should have a speed and maneuver buff to be at least realistically comparable with the agility of people in the game. It's the heavy ones that need rebalancing to be worth their price.

Currently, the situation of cav vs good aware melee is that even against 1h you will miss and your horse or yourself will be oneshot, due to the lack of agility of your horse and the excessive agility of people. Same with ranged, except that it is much easier for the ranged guy.

This is true with any horse because of the leg nerf, so you are better using a light horse when you know you will attack aware melee and avoid projectiles.

Cav would be internally balanced if heavy horses could fight aware enemies at least as safely as infantry does.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Radament on April 08, 2012, 04:35:26 pm
Remove horse legs and add thrusters in the back , simple as that.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on April 08, 2012, 04:41:07 pm
In my 15 gens with a danish i never oneshoted a uninjured cataphract, then again the maximum PS i had was 8 but usually 6 or 7
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Zisa on April 08, 2012, 04:42:36 pm
Leesin, the light horses are more or less fine, if anything they should have a speed and maneuver buff to be at least realistically comparable with the agility of people in the game. It's the heavy ones that need rebalancing to be worth their price.

Currently, the situation of cav vs good aware melee is that even against 1h you will miss and your horse or yourself will be oneshot, due to the lack of agility of your horse and the excessive agility of people. Same with ranged, except that it is much easier for the ranged guy.

This is true with any horse because of the leg nerf, so you are better using a light horse when you know you will attack aware melee and avoid projectiles.

Cav would be internally balanced if heavy horses could fight aware enemies at least as safely as infantry does.
Bullshit.

People are far too fucking slow, go play chess you scrub.

The crap delay for swings also gives cav an unwarranted advantage, but if it has nto been easier for you all of 2012 at least then you really are a sucky cav.

Also, if you get a chance to watch Full Metal Jousting do so.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Smoothrich on April 08, 2012, 04:49:15 pm
hm where is the info that horse legs have 0 armor ? i knew the damage was increased but not the way like this, interesting

My testing (weak scimitar for example aimed at legs will do 90 percent of rouncey or champion cataphract HP while horse stands still, pretty obviously ignoring armor + doing over 100 HP worth of damage to both).  So it does at least double/triple damage + doesn't factor in armor at all.  I have had champion destriers and champion cataphracts one shotted by archers with 1 hander sidearms with very slight speed bonuses on actual battle  Its kind of silly, to be honest.

Also trolling by devs:  Fasader or somebody said BUT THERE IS NO ARMOR ON THE LEGS HEH R U BLIND or something to that effect after I tested immediately after the patch and complained.

Despite these nerfs, its exceptionally easy to get really high KDs as cav, easier then any other class, I don't even have to play well and I will consistently be at top of my team most of the time because getting 3-4 kills a round is practically guaranteed to a cavalry player who doesn't charge a pike or archer within the first 30 seconds.. even if those kills are afk's or peasants.

So cav will never appear weak, just due to the nature of the class.  Regardless, I think just factoring in armor a bit into the legs for heavier horses would fix internal balance.  Coursers are extremely dominant on NA now, and arabian xbow cav multiply like maggots spewing forth from a peasant corpse and become flies impossible to swat due to massive agility.

I like seeing light cav more than heavy cav to be honest, but the heavier horses are definitely kind of weak in comparison now.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Vexus on April 08, 2012, 04:55:06 pm
But 1h/2h cav are the most fucked here.

They can't balance horses by lancers/HA/HC/HT only, the 1h/2h cav need to go melee range to attack and if 1-2 slashes can down an armoured horse what is the point on using such an expensive horse?
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Smoothrich on April 08, 2012, 05:00:00 pm
But 1h/2h cav are the most fucked here.

They can't balance horses by lancers/HA/HC/HT only, the 1h/2h cav need to go melee range to attack and if 1-2 slashes can down an armoured horse what is the point on using such an expensive horse?

Quite.  It forces cav into even more of a back stabber role.

Truth be told, heavy cav has a massive advantage over light from that armor still.  Ranged has always been the main counter to cav, not melee players.  Heavy cav still absorb a good amount of arrows and bolts and thats good enough for me.  I just think that nerf was a bit too extreme and punishes cav who prefer to be supportive in melee, bumping people aggressively and the like.  Pretty frustrating when a teammate can take off 2/3 of your destrier/cataphracts hp with 1 missed swing.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Bulzur on April 08, 2012, 05:37:37 pm
Just fix the strange "vulnerable" legs part, and everything else should be okay.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Oberyn on April 08, 2012, 06:11:58 pm
Been playing cav with an unloomed rouncey at lvl 20-25....How is cav UP? I guess I don't notice the leg armor penalty since getting slashed by a 2H at full speed usually meant immediate death even with the champion arabian (that I can't use atm), even more so with a pos rouncey. I can still manage to couch heavily armored 2hs from the front most times, charge archers head on with a bit of weaving, deal with poor 1h/shields who can't manage to retaliate unless I get way too close, etc. When my horse gets massacred it's mostly cause I failed or kamikaze charged for the lulz.

Although this is from a lancer perspective, prob much more of a nerf to 1h/2h cav who have to get in close and use bumping to reliably get kills.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: polkafranzi on April 08, 2012, 06:31:53 pm
Will just say this...my plated charger got 1 shot by a 2h (heavy bastard sword) to the legs.

Not joking at all. The leg damage has completely negated heavy horses in melee situations. If a plated charger can be 1 shot then something is wrong.

My "Champion" Plated Charger: Body armor: 74, Hit points: 165 gets 1 hit by the scythe which has swing damage of 27 cut, yes, something is wrong.

But no one listens, prob cos too many ranged players on mod and epic infantry QQ if they get nerfs.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: BlueKnight on April 08, 2012, 07:33:42 pm
This was me.  8-)

yes
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: BlueKnight on April 08, 2012, 07:43:15 pm
Been playing cav with an unloomed rouncey at lvl 20-25....How is cav UP? I guess I don't notice the leg armor penalty since getting slashed by a 2H at full speed usually meant immediate death even with the champion arabian (that I can't use atm), even more so with a pos rouncey. I can still manage to couch heavily armored 2hs from the front most times, charge archers head on with a bit of weaving, deal with poor 1h/shields who can't manage to retaliate unless I get way too close, etc. When my horse gets massacred it's mostly cause I failed or kamikaze charged for the lulz.

Although this is from a lancer perspective, prob much more of a nerf to 1h/2h cav who have to get in close and use bumping to reliably get kills.

Remember that if u r fighting with poor fighters, you can as well go on foot and take cudgel, htey will die even easier. We aren't talking about possibilities of killing poor, but about a balance between good. I remember killing like 3 or more guys when I had pitch fork while I was getting ganged by like 7. Nerf pitch fork. Also nerf blue tunic and straw hat.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Renten on April 08, 2012, 07:47:17 pm
Truth be told, heavy cav has a massive advantage over light from that armor still.  Ranged has always been the main counter to cav, not melee players.  Heavy cav still absorb a good amount of arrows and bolts and thats good enough for me.  I just think that nerf was a bit too extreme and punishes cav who prefer to be supportive in melee, bumping people aggressively and the like.  Pretty frustrating when a teammate can take off 2/3 of your destrier/cataphracts hp with 1 missed swing.

Even the light horses can take an amazing amount of arrows. I've seen roph going around on his arabien cav with more than five arrows and one sticking straight out of his horses face. For example, a courser with a two 9pt throwing spears in it. One in the face. If there isn't many people left the cav will likely kill the archer before they can kill the horse.
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Also, I don't think throwing gets the same head shot bonus as bow/xbow or is more likely to count as hitting the wrong hit box.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: BADPLAYERold on April 08, 2012, 10:25:13 pm
Just remove the damage bonus to legs from teamhits and it's all good, my only problem with that change was teammates hitting your horse when you come in to bump guys for them and it blackbarring even horses like the Cataphract.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Vkvkvk on April 09, 2012, 12:26:28 am
You guys forgot to block with your shields so that the swings or stabs aimed for the leg magically hit the shield.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: matt2507 on April 09, 2012, 01:18:34 pm
Above all, the top would already to regulate these damn hitbox ..

the guy who kills you with a spear carried 2m in your back is just awful.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on April 09, 2012, 04:37:14 pm
Fix horse headshot detection, remove crazy leg antiarmour. Perhaps a slight nerf in regular armour so it's not excessive tanking.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on April 09, 2012, 07:05:25 pm
It is a joke when I'm riding my champion courser and have a few throwing weapons sticking out of it's head and neck.  That should be just as deadly as removing it's ankles.

I honestly think that swinging a 1h sword at a horses unprotected ankles would be enough to bring the horse down (especially with it's own speed factored into the equation). 

I think you need to buff throwing weapons when it hits my horses head, it's a joke right now.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Adam_Bomb on April 11, 2012, 04:23:29 am
I love reading this  :twisted:  So if I'm getting charged, should I aim my shot at the legs, rather than the head?
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Smoothrich on April 11, 2012, 05:13:19 am
I love reading this  :twisted:  So if I'm getting charged, should I aim my shot at the legs, rather than the head?

...yes.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: obitus on April 11, 2012, 06:09:07 am
arabian xbow cav multiply like maggots spewing forth from a peasant corpse and become flies impossible to swat due to massive agility.

The leg damage buff very rarely applies to them, since they never have to be near any enemy unit at any time.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Spanish on April 11, 2012, 07:19:15 am
Dont you guys even dare threaten to nerf my champion Arabian! It's already ridiculous that I have to go to 7 riding and it costs more than a courser does and it's only a 100 gold less than a destrier and one point slower. Which in my opinion is stupid since it has less armor which should make it lighter -____- but in any case as it goes for 2h cav I'm the horse Xbow slayer with my horse. I have yet to find a horse archer hat can get away from me. And as for taking so many arrows a lot of the time it's only because I can minimize the damage by riding away from the projectiles while if I'm charging them. Let's just chestaclese laser war darts one shotted my Arabian :(((
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Vibe on April 11, 2012, 07:53:47 am
     Please guys this is bullshit. HS from throwing lance to my cataphract took 55% hp away, but what is funny, 1 hit of 1h weapon to the legs of my horsie took the same dmg....

what's even funnier is
when i try to hit you in the horse's legs like you said
i get stopped by the forcefield of the shield
that was not even close to horse's legs
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Rebelyell on April 20, 2012, 01:43:15 am
and thats another one joke of cav story
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Mlekce on April 20, 2012, 02:23:46 am
dunno man i realy hate when i need to hit 5-6 hits with my lance to kill that armored horse or +3 destrier. I would not touch anything in this mode.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Mlekce on April 20, 2012, 02:26:18 am
what's even funnier is
when i try to hit you in the horse's legs like you said
i get stopped by the forcefield of the shield
that was not even close to horse's legs
yeah that shit actualy can apsorb couched lance even if it miss shield by 1 mile. I realy hate when that happen in game too.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Mlekce on April 20, 2012, 02:29:02 am
But 1h/2h cav are the most fucked here.

They can't balance horses by lancers/HA/HC/HT only, the 1h/2h cav need to go melee range to attack and if 1-2 slashes can down an armoured horse what is the point on using such an expensive horse?

+3 rouncey dies from 3-4 arrows or 2 bolts. I used war horse and that beast could take 4-6 arrows before it goes down,bump dmg is much higher,they can take 4-5 lance hits from close range,so that horse isn't usless at all.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Vexus on April 20, 2012, 11:43:02 am
If you spent some more time to read my post properly you would have noticed I said slashes not arrows/bolts.

Horses got a huge nerf in their legs for melee weapons.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: _Tak_ on April 20, 2012, 01:13:17 pm
Horses got a huge nerf in their legs for melee weapons.

This is true but sadly none of the dev are cav and they all hate cav so who cares?
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Smoothrich on April 20, 2012, 01:18:39 pm
no i think the devs have a good idea of how fucking OP cav is just by looking at the damage dealt by mounted weapons every week and the like

also any good cav player who isn't a troll or an idiot can admit cav is brokenly powerful no matter what you do with it

game sucks unless they nerf the shit out of archery and cav
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Ronin on April 20, 2012, 02:23:22 pm
The problem is, cavalry is the class that has the best backstabber potential. So devs, try to nerf them so everything can be balanced. However, the problem is heavily armored horses suffer much significantly from it. So my suggestion,
Lower the speed of heavy horses significantly and increase their leg armor.

So they will be able to charge openly, unless the enemy has pikes. If the enemy have pikes, wait and attack from behind but with less of a surprise this time. However, since the enemy formation will be fucked up as the battle goes; the enemy awareness is less of a problem.

And yes, please buff throwing against horses. I mean, fix it.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on April 20, 2012, 04:10:25 pm
no i think the devs have a good idea of how fucking OP cav is just by looking at the damage dealt by mounted weapons every week and the like

also any good cav player who isn't a troll or an idiot can admit cav is brokenly powerful no matter what you do with it

game sucks unless they nerf the shit out of archery and cav

Wrong, mounted polearm weapons did like 13% of total damage dealt 2 or 3 months ago, according to stats cmp posted.  The other mounted weapons were basically scratching the surface:

NA1 - Battle stats:

TwoHander           9,277,779  24.50%
Polearm             7,929,018  20.93%
OneHander           5,576,296  14.72%
Polearm (mounted)   4,772,240  12.60%
Bow                 3,644,565  9.62%
Crossbow            1,932,102  5.10%
Thrown              1,554,781  4.10%
Crossbow (mounted)  989,434    2.61%
OneHander (mounted) 902,528    2.38%
TwoHander (mounted) 704,806    1.86%
Bow (mounted)       514,014    1.36%
Thrown (mounted)    78,197     0.21%

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,27409.0.html

Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Smoothrich on April 20, 2012, 04:18:21 pm
lance cav doing more damage then all shielders in the game and almost as much total damage as ranged classes combined

yah that is balanced

nerf cav

also, heavy cav is still horribly OP, it never wasn't
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on April 20, 2012, 06:07:38 pm
You can move around the battle field faster than ground troops...you can pick when you engage and make sure you have the advantage.  It makes perfect sense to me.  I don't think it's OP either.  Every time the enemy team forms some sort of a formation with their infantry then the cavalry are only able to pick off the stragglers too stupid to work as a team.

Cavalry isn't OP (nothing in the game is).  The problem is retarded infantry not forming up into decent ranks and fighting as groups.  Stupidity to counter a natural strength doesn't mean that an item is OP.
 
2handers do twice as much damage as mounted polearms, so by your logic, they are OP and need to be nerfed.   :rolleyes:

Everything in the game has strengths and weaknesses, if someone is too stupid to counter a natural "strength" of an item, that's their own damn fault.  Not everything in the game should be "balanced", you should have to decide what strengths you want, and accept the weaknesses that come with them. That's what makes c-rpg so great (in theory), but with every nerf there becomes less distinction between one item and the next, or one class and the next.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: BADPLAYERold on April 20, 2012, 07:20:27 pm
Cavalry isn't OP (nothing in the game is).  The problem is retarded infantry not forming up into decent ranks and fighting as groups.  Stupidity to counter a natural strength doesn't mean that an item is OP.
 
2handers do twice as much damage as mounted polearms, so by your logic, they are OP and need to be nerfed.   :rolleyes:

You can't expect people to "form up into decent ranks and fight as groups " (aka camping a hill cause thats all that ever happens) it's a game and people want to have fun, doing that isn't fun and when you don't do that Cavalry is terribly overpowered and even when you DO do that it is overpowered because you can just wait on the outside of the group until they engage your team and then bam free kills from behind on the enemy for you.

I don't know why you think 2handers do twice as much damage as mounted polearms.. speed bonus makes lances do the most damage of anything in the game (except I think some 1handers/morningstar on horseback but they are very short) not to mention couches doing a ton of damage even if they don't 1hit everything anymore.
I've played a Cavalry build with 9PS recently and I could 1shot most people, how is that balanced?
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: H3ADSH0T on April 20, 2012, 09:00:36 pm
I agree with CrazyCracka420. I think that C-RPG has the most fun potential when teams use actual tactics and nerfing something that is -mechanically- strong (Cavalry in real warfare) is silly, when it can be counter played. Removing our choices for strategy makes the game shallow and uninteresting. Not to mention a lot of things in C-RPG COULD be balanced to make more "sense" like this horses get nuked to the legs theory:

Players that have a certain amount of weight equipped should not be able to jump and twirl like ninjas.

In any case, if there were more options for anti cavalry techniques you might not cry so much. Pikes should be able to be set and have a couch effect on charging cavalry. Counter play to this is exactly what front line Cav would be doing for real, wedging and suiciding on your pike/shield wall.

tl;dr Buff tactics, nerf nothing.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on April 20, 2012, 09:19:09 pm
Agreed, it comes down to tactics, not something being overpowered.  When it's properly countered, horses are completely neutered (marginalized).  It would be really cool if things were different in warband like you say, it would be nice to be able to pound a shield into the ground to create a half body protection from ranged.  Or would be nice if archers could pound stakes into the ground which would injure horses and make them useless.  Pikes being able to be braced into the ground would also be cool.

That being said, pikes and tight infantry formations can make horseman useless.  I've seen it happen on servers where the infantry moves slowly together and the horseman can only circle the outside thumbing themselves.  If one gets antsy enough they can sometimes pickoff people on the outside, but generally they are just waiting for the infantry lines to clash.  This is how warfare works, it's called tactics.  You have to do something to overcome something, this causes you to vulnerable to something else.  Rock, paper, scissors people.

Nothing needs to be nerfed, like headshot says, tactics and player teamwork needs a buff.  Wish the dev's in this mod (and like most games) would stop catering to the loudest whiners...most people are happy with the game (and most people who play don't post on the forums...they have regular jobs).

badplayer, i'm not talking about hits from lancer cavalry, I'm saying overall damage for the month of february (or january) in NA1 has stats on page 4 of this topic (that I copied over).  With 6 powerstrike on a champion courser most of the time when I thrust into someone I don't kill them unless they've already taken damage (or they are very weakly armored).
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Ronin on April 20, 2012, 09:21:28 pm
Hmm, pikes and throwing weapons are natural counters to horses. Also now, two handed swords and other poles make excellent counters to horse as it is easy to outreach a cavalry. Also archers and xbowmen can shoot them. So they have already many counters when you think some of these factors are combined. However, no mater what we do retards are everywhere, among us. In fact we are a few men who have healthy brains and we are among them to be honest. So cav will always be OP. That is, of course, unless the cavalry would be like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzcLQRXW6B0

I know this wouldn't be useful since many people can't even use siege equipment, moreover they destroy it whenever they see it. But I have a small suggestion that will most likely to go unnoticed:
Maybe if we would be able to put spikes to the ground, in the same way we deploy siege shields or construction sites, cavalry would be fine.
Edit: Lolz crazy cracka said it before me.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on April 20, 2012, 09:22:57 pm
Ronin that is historically accurate.  Before battle archers would literally cut down branches from trees, cut them into crude sharp points, and hammer them into the ground.  It might not stop a horseman from killing someone right behind the spikes, but it certainly would disable the horse who ran into it.

I've mentioned it a few times in passing, but I think that would be a nice piece of siege equipment to allow people to use.

The problem (I think) is that weapons aren't "static" the only time they do damage is when they are being thrust.  The whole game would be a lot better if weapons had actual damage staticly set to the item.  A pike that isn't swinging would still fuck you up if you ran into it.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: H3ADSH0T on April 20, 2012, 09:53:54 pm
I think that I would suggest imposing a slowing effect on horses struck in the legs, at least for a time. But then I remind myself of what horses are actually capable of. I'm from a town with one of the largest rodeos in the US. One year a horse broke its leg during an event and proceeded to THRASH and cause havoc. It took well over 20 men to pacify it before it could be tranquilized and put out of its misery. Hell, in PW a horses speed and maneuver go down the further it's health does. If certain things were balanced to reflect this even that would be an addition I couldn't cry about.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Ronin on April 20, 2012, 10:05:07 pm
Ronin that is historically accurate.  Before battle archers would literally cut down branches from trees, cut them into crude sharp points, and hammer them into the ground.  It might not stop a horseman from killing someone right behind the spikes, but it certainly would disable the horse who ran into it.

I've mentioned it a few times in passing, but I think that would be a nice piece of siege equipment to allow people to use.

The problem (I think) is that weapons aren't "static" the only time they do damage is when they are being thrust.  The whole game would be a lot better if weapons had actual damage staticly set to the item.  A pike that isn't swinging would still fuck you up if you ran into it.
Yeah I saw it in Medieval 2 total war. Won many battles with that function of English Longbowman. (By the way wow silly we are, learning history from computer games not history books)

I think the damage system would be perfectly awesome but it is not even needed after all. Just make it so, it will block the path for horses and be just a bit more durable than siege shields. So that it will give those cavalry a stop after all.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on April 20, 2012, 10:17:11 pm
I did learn about the archers using crude spikes (usually made from nearby branches off trees) from reading about historical battles.

Red Cliff is by far my favorite "historical" war movie.  I wish they had more European wars and battles on film in the same direction and style as Red Cliff.  There's so many wars and battles to choose from...but they're any that I've seen are all made for families and don't incorporate the tactics, formations, and actual warfare that Red Cliff does.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Auphilia on April 20, 2012, 10:56:59 pm
If they implemented a +% damage for hitting someone in the back, cavalry would be fine. You would see more people using stealth as well. People would be forced to pay more attention to their surroundings, and we wouldn't have as many ridiculous nerfs.

Honestly, I'd rather see weapons being very lethal. Arrows being able to 1-2 hit, daggers being able to 1 hit from the back and 2-3 hit from the front, bigger weapons of course being able to flat out one hit pretty much anything. If we quit letting people make mistakes, they will learn not to. It is a mistake to wander on your own aimlessly and get run down by cavalry. If you want players to play practically and realistically, you have to implement practical and realistic mechanics. Why does anyone need to be aware of horses when they can soak multiple lances and be trampled a dozen times before actually dying? Why do we need to stay in cover and not wander aimlessly when we can take dozens of arrows, assuming they hit us?

TL:DR If you want people to use tactics and play smart, increase the penalty for being stupid. Make it a lot easier to die. Reward players for staying alive and working with their team.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Zerran on April 22, 2012, 01:32:14 pm
Hmm, pikes and throwing weapons are natural counters to horses. Also now, two handed swords and other poles make excellent counters to horse as it is easy to outreach a cavalry. Also archers and xbowmen can shoot them. So they have already many counters when you think some of these factors are combined. However, no mater what we do retards are everywhere, among us. In fact we are a few men who have healthy brains and we are among them to be honest. So cav will always be OP. That is, of course, unless the cavalry would be like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzcLQRXW6B0

I know this wouldn't be useful since many people can't even use siege equipment, moreover they destroy it whenever they see it. But I have a small suggestion that will most likely to go unnoticed:
Maybe if we would be able to put spikes to the ground, in the same way we deploy siege shields or construction sites, cavalry would be fine.
Edit: Lolz crazy cracka said it before me.

You have never played pikeman I assume? Pikes are great for keeping cav away, as long as the pikeman dedicates all their attention to the cav, but as soon as they engage melee, cav swarm them. Pikes are great for keeping cav away, but not nearly as useful for actually killing them as ranged.

That said, personally I'd like to see the armor reduction scale with the horse's base body armor, so the heavier horses, while still weak around the legs, won't die in 1 hit. Also, make all horses have higher leg armor than they do now. At the same time, make cav riders take fall damage if they get dehorsed, increasing based on the speed the horse was traveling at, and make horses take damage if they slam into a wall. NOT FOR REALISM, but simply because it means that cav would no longer have essentially 2 lives, and would have to be more careful about where they charge.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Ronin on April 22, 2012, 02:23:52 pm
You have never played pikeman I assume? Pikes are great for keeping cav away, as long as the pikeman dedicates all their attention to the cav, but as soon as they engage melee, cav swarm them. Pikes are great for keeping cav away, but not nearly as useful for actually killing them as ranged.
I didn't say which one is more useful against cav. Pikes or ranged...
But yeah, it is possibly like how you said.

That said, personally I'd like to see the armor reduction scale with the horse's base body armor, so the heavier horses, while still weak around the legs, won't die in 1 hit. Also, make all horses have higher leg armor than they do now. At the same time, make cav riders take fall damage if they get dehorsed, increasing based on the speed the horse was traveling at, and make horses take damage if they slam into a wall. NOT FOR REALISM, but simply because it means that cav would no longer have essentially 2 lives, and would have to be more careful about where they charge.
I would love to see that. Yet, once again it seems hardly possible.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: H3ADSH0T on April 22, 2012, 04:09:58 pm
I still think that tactics > everything. Cavalry might "swarm" the pikeman once they turn their attention to melee but if people in C-RPG could be coaxed to work together anything like the people in MM line battles do, we'd have halfway decent formations and Cavalry would be forced to counterplay or ride away.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: BlueKnight on April 24, 2012, 09:15:47 pm

Players that have a certain amount of weight equipped should not be able to jump and twirl like ninjas.


Not sure if you know, but some of the best knights were demanded to be able to do backflips in full plate. The deffinition of a good knight was really demanding and agility was the most important feature of such a badass. They also had to be able to get back to vertical position on a horse while they were already in horizontal, so they had to change their position by 90 degrees while actually speeding on a horse. All the stuff was done in plate. Therefore they could do a simple jump.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: kongxinga on April 29, 2012, 06:12:55 pm
Dont you guys even dare threaten to nerf my champion Arabian! It's already ridiculous that I have to go to 7 riding and it costs more than a courser does and it's only a 100 gold less than a destrier and one point slower. Which in my opinion is stupid since it has less armor which should make it lighter -____- but in any case as it goes for 2h cav I'm the horse Xbow slayer with my horse. I have yet to find a horse archer hat can get away from me. And as for taking so many arrows a lot of the time it's only because I can minimize the damage by riding away from the projectiles while if I'm charging them. Let's just chestaclese laser war darts one shotted my Arabian :(((

People need to take into account the large differences running away from projectiles makes. Back in native beta someone did a test on crossbows and piercing shields. He found out that the crossbow could not pierce the shield when the target was standing, but did pierce if the target was walking with shield up forwards.

This works both ways though. If you have the misfortune of turning your horse into an arrow or bolt (while say dodging friendly fire), the speed bonus can get your horse one shot. OTOH, riding away can let you take many, many arrows, which is why HA duels where both are riding away take a long time despite many hits, and are often decided by 1 speed bonused arrow.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Joker86 on April 29, 2012, 09:04:06 pm
Back in native beta someone did a test on crossbows and piercing shields. He found out that the crossbow could not pierce the shield when the target was standing, but did pierce if the target was walking with shield up forwards.

As far as I know this is a bug. Whenever the LOWERED shield is hit by a projectile, it doesn't take any damage, even if it's a ballista. But if you are BLOCKING shield hitpoints get removed the usual way.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Jarlek on April 29, 2012, 11:53:18 pm
As far as I know this is a bug. Whenever the LOWERED shield is hit by a projectile, it doesn't take any damage, even if it's a ballista. But if you are BLOCKING shield hitpoints get removed the usual way.
I remember losing my shield from a projectile from the side :/ If it was a bug, it's probably been fixed.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Miwiw on April 30, 2012, 12:01:54 am
As far as I know this is a bug. Whenever the LOWERED shield is hit by a projectile, it doesn't take any damage, even if it's a ballista. But if you are BLOCKING shield hitpoints get removed the usual way.

Isnt he talking about "shooting through" the shield though? That is kinda still in native (and in crpg as well, depending on the shield afaik), depending on crossbow and shield. If you for example use a normal or even bad board Shield (rhodoks) and the enemy has a better crossbow he does often shoot through the shield and directly damages the player and not the shield. I did often take those risky shots and got many kills with that. That is why we always told our players to take the Heavy Board Shield if playing as Rhodok.
But what you are saying is true as well, I never noticed that my shield got any damage when I was not blocking actively.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: T_Grellenort on May 08, 2012, 03:07:14 pm
I completely agree. It's terrible when a very expensive horse dies after 1-2 strokes of weak weapons in the legs. Made it is not so critical. Or add much charge the horses. If Plated Charger relocated per person in real life, people will not be able to continue the fight.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: _Tak_ on May 08, 2012, 07:34:12 pm
The dev will never change it because too much people whine about Cav. They are whine listener. The reason they did this it is because people said Heavy horse too OP. Now they are too weak = happy
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: OpenPalm on May 08, 2012, 10:19:42 pm
It would be nice if the armored horses took less leg damage.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Siberian_Wolf on May 09, 2012, 08:41:00 pm
Full speed plated charger coming at me + me having (German Greatsword + 6 ps) = Mad horseman

I destroy cav, usually in 1 hit lol.

+1 to slight buff
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Slamz on May 10, 2012, 09:16:58 am
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Smoothrich on May 10, 2012, 09:51:13 pm
the only thing they should do is remove the leg damage increase to friendly fire hits

anyone who is actually asking for cav buffs is an idiot or just REALLY bad at playing horses, simple as that

edit:  do you think good cav are trolling when they say cav is a fucking joke, not fun to play, and it needs to be nerfed because its so easy to kill countless people every round and map?  horses are still way too strong and simple to play.  double their prices and half their stats.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Vexus on May 10, 2012, 09:56:29 pm
Yes cavs don't need buffs.

Dying from 1 long hafted blade swing on a full health charger is fine I mean it's not like that horse is expensive.
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Joker86 on May 11, 2012, 03:14:04 pm
I don't know why cav complains about being too vulnerable. They are super mobile, they can pick their fights, and if they they don't take too much risk they could survive every round with a few kills and no harm taken. That way, even 0 armour and 1 HP would be OK for cav  :P
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 11, 2012, 03:16:32 pm
(click to show/hide)
They're all riding Destriers or Deserts! NERF THEM BOTH!!!
Title: Re: I know you hate horseman but...
Post by: _Tak_ on May 11, 2012, 11:45:22 pm
i just owned a champ cata and i try it for over 7 times. Its awesome, nice bump damage and decent speed. But then when people hit my horse the first hit was like -15% of damage and i was like ok..., then another hit my horse lose like 80% of hp and i cant see the hp bar , then i press Alt+F4 to rage quit. Not even kidding but if you try heavy horse WITHOUT shield your horse can actually die in 1-2 hit...

Edit: will stick back to my rouncey for now...