cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: ManOfWar on March 02, 2011, 12:21:08 am
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Well the side sword is a wee bit fast,
Due to this inarguable fact, what shall the speed be decreased too? 99? 100?
I am unsure what a proper speed would be.
Any suggestions?
Edit- I am a one hander and I use the side sword, I do not use a Masterwork mine is Tempered, I made this thread because I have heard complaints and I just want to make sure it does not get nerfed to hell
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There's nothing wrong with the stats since that sword is from the future.
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There's nothing wrong with the stats since that sword is from the future.
The year 5000?
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There's nothing wrong with the stats since that sword is from the future.
Yeah just remove the sword, as it just doesnt fit the time period..
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It is the most expensive 1 hand sword to carry I think it is fine the way it is now.
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It is the most expensive 1 hand sword to carry I think it is fine the way it is now.
Reduce the price then? That sword is just stupid.
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Hey do not remove it! This sword is my baby!
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Stop trolling side sword is same fast as scimitar (and is shorter!) and sabres, slower then katana and make less damage.
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Well the side sword is a wee bit fast,
Due to this inarguable fact, what shall the speed be decreased too? 99? 100?
My calculations place the change in attack speed due to 1 weapons speed as being equivalent to ~18 proficiency for a weapon with ~100 speed. You cool with attacking as fast as you did 20 or 40 proficiency ago?
As an aside, all masterwork weapons are pretty over powered to begin with. They effectively give you 2 free ranks of power strike and let you attack as quickly as if you had 20 to 40 more proficiency than you actually do. So if your side sword is masterworked, which I think I remember you saying, it being stupidly fast is not unexpected.
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you tripple heirloomed your sidesword war? you son of a bitch!
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you tripple heirloomed your sidesword war? you son of a bitch!
What no! I am still using tempered, I did not want to be super cheap
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oh. :D ok. *shoo* good thing. Was going to ban you for all NA servers for a second there. :wink: good thing we got that cleared up.
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Stop trolling side sword is same fast as scimitar (and is shorter!) and sabres, slower then katana and make less damage.
If you have to compare a weapon to 3 or more other weapons combined in order to make it seem balanced, it's a bit too buff. :wink:
Anyways, I think it's fine it's just that all the other 1h swords are pretty shitty in comparison which is why everyone and their brother is using the side sword, scimitar or long espanada (and a huscarl for the same reason with shields, it's the only one that isn't shitty) with the occasional sprinkle of something else here and there. I'm fine if it gets left as it is. I'll keep using my machete (military cleaver) even if I do sigh longingly at the stats of the side katana.
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Mine is nearly masterworked. 103 speed seems a bit much.
But then again, you only truly benefit from that when you put your shield away, which makes you as fast as 2h's (or slightly faster) but with less damage/reach.
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I think sidesword is a bit fast too especially since elite scimitar is only 99 speed.
Elite Scimitar
weight 1.25
requirement 7
spd rtng 99
weapon length 100
swing damage 31, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce
Side sword
weight 1.3
requirement 8
spd rtng 101
weapon length 95
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
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I'd say reduce the speed of the sidesword to 100. It IS the most expensive onehander.
And btw, the remaining 1handers aren't shit at all, try fighting with a regular sword or soldiers cleaver to get you down to the ground. This servers a good challenge and makes you love the higher end swords :D (When you get to use them ofc)
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And don't forget - what Sidesword have a thrust attack (thrust damage 26 pierce) while Elite Scimitar - doesn't (thrust damage 0 pierce).
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Elite scimitar is 5 points longer.
Scimitar speed 101
Niuweidao speed 101
Liuyedao speed 102
Side sword speed 101, there is no way side sword is faster than other swords :rolleyes:
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Elite scimitar is 5 points longer.
Scimitar speed 101
Niuweidao speed 101
Liuyedao speed 102
Side sword speed 101, there is no way side sword is faster than other swords :rolleyes:
How about you stop comparing only the bits of the swords, but the whole of them. Scimitar - no stab, niuweidao - shorter, less dmg, no stab, liuyedao - shorter, less damage, no stab. The other weapons have some kind of trade off for their speed, side sword on the other hand, is the ultimate sword. I honestly don't care if it's get nerfed, it's just sad that there is no competition in 1h swords.
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How about you stop comparing only the bits of the swords, but the whole of them. Scimitar - no stab
But longer
, niuweidao - shorter, less dmg, no stab,
No, more damage.
liuyedao - shorter, less damage, no stab.
But faster!
The other weapons have some kind of trade off for their speed, side sword on the other hand, is the ultimate sword. I honestly don't care if it's get nerfed, it's just sad that there is no competition in 1h swords.
Side sword has medium range for 1h and good but far not not best damage, its more like a scimitar with stab abiliity.
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It needs to lose a bit of speed.
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Reduce speed to 100 and reduce damage to 30c, up thrust to 26p. It's not great at cutting considering it's so flimsy (it's less broad than italian sword).
Also, reduce it's price, it's not meant to be top of the line.
And yes, i use Side Sword.
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Side sword is further development of arming sword!
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Side sword is further development of arming sword!
:facepalm:
And that is an argument for?
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:facepalm:
And that is an argument for?
Top of the line is ok since its further development of older style swords.
Better steel/iron work allowed at the end of medieval ages to make stronger and lighter swords, side sword.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYkD0LOVI50
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Atm sidesword is the jack of all trades with no weaknesses unlike other swords.
Has the speed, length and cut damage of a scimitar and thrusting power of the italian sword... Fast weapons are shorter NOT longer 101 speed on a 95 length sword is stupid. Even espada eslavona is better balanced 100 speed 90 length but only 26 cut, it's a good thrusting weapon the side sword is good in everything.
Think about that.
Btw just because it costs the most doesn't mean it must be the best in every aspect :)
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Tbh Long Espada Eslavona is pretty strong too - uber stab, uber range, decent swing
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Top of the line is ok since its further development of older style swords.
4 more speed then arming swords and both better cut (how?) and better stab damage? Seriously?
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Side sword is further development of arming sword!
Nope, that is italian sword. Side sword is offshot.
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Espada Eslavona is pretty good for thrusts, but don't count on it for side swings on heavy armored enemies, for instance at 7 power strike I whiff alot with it on banded armor and +. With thrusts, aim for the face and it's one shot.
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What do not touch the damage, side sword is suppost to be the high end slashing weapon, counterpart to long espadas stabbing.
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No, more damage.
You got me there, my mistake, yet the rest you are still comparing only bits of the swords. As was said, side sword is jack of all trades, master of all.
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You got me there, my mistake, yet the rest you are still comparing only bits of the swords. As was said, side sword is jack of all trades, master of all.
Master of all? Espada eslavona has higher thrust damage, there's quite a number with longer reach and it doesn't have the most damage of all 1h weapons sideswings either.
It's just that it performs very well in each of those areas.
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Master of all means good in everything and side sword IS good in everything nothing wrong there.
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You can't take it literally obviously. Side sword isn't best but above average (nearly best) at everything. In terms of balance, I guess it should be average, or just provide alternatives. As I said, I don't really care if it gets nerfed or not, just that it would be nice to have more top tier swords to choose from in 1h lines (by either nerfing side sword or introduce new swords/buff the current ones).
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IMO, side sword should have less thrust damage.
how does the Katana have only 18p yet the side sword has 26p
Side Sword
weight 1.3
requirement 8
spd rtng 101
weapon length 95
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
Katana
weight 1.25
requirement 9
spd rtng 102
weapon length 95
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 18 pierce
another great thing is that the side sword can actually STUN the katana due to the weight. (how is side sword heavier than the katana?)
you wouldn't think .05 weight could cause a stun, but it does, long espada stuns the katana as well, these 1 handers must swing this sword pretty hard to be stunning a sword swung in 2 hands.
anyways thats my beef with the sidesword. I wouldn't mind if maybe the Katana had a viable thrust option, then I could see 26 p on the side sword as making sense, but right now the sidesword is actually a side-katana that has been upgraded with an actual thrust that can hurt people.
not even going into the fact that someone using this side-katana can also use a shield that blocks everything and anything with the touch of one mouse button.
okay I'm done, I'll stop being sad & just deal with it.
IMO give side sword 19p 34c :P
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IMO, side sword should have less thrust damage.
how does the Katana have only 18p yet the side sword has 26p
Easy, take a look at the swords. The katana is a slashing sword. It's made primarily to... slash and cut.
The sidesword is a stabbing sword. Swords like that were made to thrust into the slits and gaps of the full plate armours of the time (I could be off with my timeline a bit.)
If you want to fix the sidesword in any way, I would suggest increasing the thrusting damage and decreasing the swing damage. That would match the looks a lot more.
From:
Side Sword
weight 1.3
requirement 8
spd rtng 101
weapon length 95
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
To:
Side Sword
weight 1.3
requirement 8
spd rtng 101
weapon length 95
swing damage 28, cut
thrust damage 30 pierce
Still 58 damage points total, but more damage on 1 attack direction and less on the remaining 3. This decreases the overall damage output of the weapon.
It would make an espada eslavona completely useless though and a long espada only viable due to it's range.
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Easy, take a look at the swords. The katana is a slashing sword. It's made primarily to... slash and cut.
The sidesword is a stabbing sword. Swords like that were made to thrust into the slits and gaps of the full plate armours of the time (I could be off with my timeline a bit.)
If you want to fix the sidesword in any way, I would suggest increasing the thrusting damage and decreasing the swing damage. That would match the looks a lot more.
From:
Side Sword
weight 1.3
requirement 8
spd rtng 101
weapon length 95
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
To:
Side Sword
weight 1.3
requirement 8
spd rtng 101
weapon length 95
swing damage 28, cut
thrust damage 30 pierce
Still 58 damage points total, but more damage on 1 attack direction and less on the remaining 3. This decreases the overall damage output of the weapon.
It would make an espada eslavona completely useless though and a long espada only viable due to it's range.
Your solution to "fixing" the side sword is to buff it? Sorry that is a terrible idea and would make any other 1h weapon pointless to use.
Side sword needs a speed reduction because it does have a stab and maybe a small reduction on the slash damage. 95 length for a weapon is hardly what I would class as "medium range" either for a 1h weapon.
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make any other 1h weapon pointless to use.
They already are except for stylistic reasons and aesthetic value (IE: You like the look). As far as 1her the only weapons that are worth using stat wise are:
Warhammer for blunt and knockdown
Steel Pick for 1-shot piercing goodness
Side Katana if you need a sword
Long Espanada/Elite Scim if you need a sword with more length (the side sword still beats these two overall though)
Everything else is completely sub-par. Either too slow (any 1-her with less than 99 speed is too slow compared to the other options), too short (for the swords, 95 reach is barely cutting it as is, no pun intended), or too weak damage wise.
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The speed of a scimitar, thrust damage of the Italian sword, and cut damage of a Nordic Champions sword......really?
5 reach doen't make up for dominating in every category.
Price isn't an argument. It's okay if it's completely OP as long as it takes a lil bit longer to get it?
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Easy, take a look at the swords. The katana is a slashing sword. It's made primarily to... slash and cut.
The sidesword is a stabbing sword. Swords like that were made to thrust into the slits and gaps of the full plate armours of the time (I could be off with my timeline a bit.)
If you want to fix the sidesword in any way, I would suggest increasing the thrusting damage and decreasing the swing damage. That would match the looks a lot more.
From:
Side Sword
weight 1.3
requirement 8
spd rtng 101
weapon length 95
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
To:
Side Sword
weight 1.3
requirement 8
spd rtng 101
weapon length 95
swing damage 28, cut
thrust damage 30 pierce
Still 58 damage points total, but more damage on 1 attack direction and less on the remaining 3. This decreases the overall damage output of the weapon.
It would make an espada eslavona completely useless though and a long espada only viable due to it's range.
Maybe make it like.
Side Sword 6200
weight 1.2 (it's flimsy)
requirement 8
spd rtng 100
weapon length 95
swing damage 29, cut
thrust damage 27 pierce
It's supposed to work similar to espada enslavona. ITS NOT CUTTING SWORD. I don't know who get the idea it should be one.
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Right now it is the "cutting" sword,
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And don't forget - what Sidesword have a thrust attack (thrust damage 26 pierce) while Elite Scimitar - doesn't (thrust damage 0 pierce).
Well, thats a good point.
The Scimitar (and all the other 3-attack-direction-one-handers) are a lot easier to handle; all you have to do is push left mouse button, what makes the Scimitar the best spam weapon in game.
The thrust with a one hander is the thing that needs the most "skill" in crpg.
With a two hander, you can backpedal and stab, aim to the head, and its an insta-kill even with only 6 power strike.
With a one hander, you need to get the proper movement (speed bonus) sword to thrust, or you will bounce of, what means your death against two hand or polearm spammers.
For some weird reason I have started to use the Side Sword myself. I have so much gold I dont need, so I tried it.
Its pretty hard cos of its animation once the shield is done, its a lot easier to parry with axes or maces, and a lot easier to spam with scimitar and all those sabres.
After all, side sword would need a buff, but its okay I guess.
What you people dont understand is that a speed of only 100 wouldnt change anything.
Its the shield that slows you down, especially when you use a heavy one like huscarls, Norman or steel shield.
Use Side Sword, or the cheaper sarranid sword or the Nordic sword, there is no noticable difference on the battlefield.
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They already are except for stylistic reasons and aesthetic value (IE: You like the look). As far as 1her the only weapons that are worth using stat wise are:
Warhammer for blunt and knockdown
Steel Pick for 1-shot piercing goodness
Side Katana if you need a sword
Long Espanada/Elite Scim if you need a sword with more length (the side sword still beats these two overall though)
Everything else is completely sub-par. Either too slow (any 1-her with less than 99 speed is too slow compared to the other options), too short (for the swords, 95 reach is barely cutting it as is, no pun intended), or too weak damage wise.
HORSE SHIT.
Military Sickle owns Steel Pick, Military Hammer owns Warhammer, and a lot of top players use Nordic Champions Sword, Long Arming Sword and are damn good with it.
Also, italian falchion, grosses messer, with really crazy cut damage for a 1hander.
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With a two hander, you can backpedal and stab, aim to the head, and its an insta-kill even with only 6 power strike.
Sadly you prove you have no frigging idea what you're talking about. Backpedaling gives a negative speed bonus, which means your damage is shit.
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Sadly you prove you have no frigging idea what you're talking about. Backpedaling gives a negative speed bonus, which means your damage is shit.
It is Michael after all. Everything he posts is garbage and he's probably the worst player in the mod. Just ignore the post when you see his name.
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I heirloomed my side sword twice, I use it without shield at the moment.
I see me complete disadvantage in compare to other classes.
Some people here just because they cant deal with someone with a side sword
write bs.
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The only reason I didnt choose to heirloom this sword is because I thought it might be a bit too short if I decide to go cavalry. Cost is a non issue once youve played for a few weeks.
Maybe leave the damage and speed alone but reduce the length even more to 90-92.
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i am a 1hander user
and tbh sidesword have too much dmg+speed. is the faster 1h sword, together with the same dmg of other slower swords.
the only downside is what 8 cm less than the top 1h longest sword? and only -5 from the majority ? have also pierce attack.
i think that a sword should not have more than 1 advantage respect others.
example? eslavona? top pierce dmg less cut dmg than others,
sarranid cavalry sworD? top reach. good cut dmg, slower
nordic champion? balanced between eslavona and sarranid , good cut dmg, slower
sidesworD? same dmg than sarranid and champion, but also faster, so need to chose 1, or remain faster than all other, at cost of some dmg, or lose speed at cost of more dmg., since is borned as a very fast sword, imho should lose 2-3 point dmg, and remain fast as it is or max -1/2 speed.
imho champion need some love.
fact is every sword have a sense.
sarranid = good for cavalry good cut dmg+ top reach slower
long eslavona = good for pierce dmg+ 2nd top reach fast
champion ? not top reach, not top dmg, not top speed, not not pierce dmg.
sidesword = good cut dmg+top speed , - reach
so sidesword need to lose some dmg, otherwise is pretty much a faster champion.
and champion need a role, maybe more cut dmg, so become top dmg 1h sword. at cost of speed/reach .
ps: just for a clue, i not use champion
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I heirloomed my side sword twice, I use it without shield at the moment.
I see me complete disadvantage in compare to other classes.
Now use it with a shield.
1h no shield isn't as competitive a class as others, because if it was, balance would be broken since every 1h with shield (which is a very competitive class), once shield gets broken, becomes a onehander without a shield.
Try using a normal onehander, and then compare it to the sidesword. It IS broken. It is way too good compared to the other onehanders.
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1h is fine without shield in 1v1, but it's disadvantaged in any other case, as it should be.
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Try using a normal onehander, and then compare it to the sidesword. It IS broken. It is way too good compared to the other onehanders.
Yeah. I think the entire 1h line could use some rebalancing. 97 speed should be the slowest any 1-her sits at imo, and the shorter swords definately need to be the only ones in the 103 speed range.
So basically 1hers length - speed ratio should look something like:
Length Speed
<90 102-103
90-94 100-101
95-99 99-100
100+ 97-98
IMO of course.
Damage is a whole nother matter as the design of the weapon kind of dictates what it's going to do, but for instance the side sword (fencing-ish sword) being the top tier cut sword is dumbtarded when you look at it.
*Why IS the side sword the best cutting sword? How the hell does it even look like it's a cutting sword? 32 cut, really?*
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Now use it with a shield.
1h no shield isn't as competitive a class as others, because if it was, balance would be broken since every 1h with shield (which is a very competitive class), once shield gets broken, becomes a onehander without a shield.
Try using a normal onehander, and then compare it to the sidesword. It IS broken. It is way too good compared to the other onehanders.
I have another char with scimitar without shield.
Side sword is fine as allrounder, but its not op, you just dont understand melee mechanics (no offense).
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Its fine..Don't touch it, and no I don't use one
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I have another char with scimitar without shield.
Side sword is fine as allrounder, but its not op, you just dont understand melee mechanics (no offense).
You have obviously no clue what you are talking about, thus there is no reason to react to your posts whatsoever from now on.
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side sword is op , i have been saying that since the day it was upped to be the best sword in game , That freaking toothpick has more cut than a lot of 1h's
not to mention its the fastest of the so call top tier 1 handers
the price argument is lol... if you retired 2 or 3 times to heirloom it , you dont have any problem with money
people dont care about the money they want the best weapon possible :mrgreen:
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Side sword is fine as allrounder, but its not op, you just dont understand melee mechanics (no offense).
Just taking a small sample size of the top tier weapons
Elite Scimitar
weight 1.25
requirement 7
spd rtng 99
weapon length 100
swing damage 31, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce
Steel Pick
weight 2.25
requirement 12
spd rtng 100
weapon length 64
swing damage 33, pierce
thrust damage 0 pierce
Warhammer
weight 3
requirement 15
spd rtng 99
weapon length 65
swing damage 31, blunt
thrust damage 18 pierce
Knockdown
Nordic Champion's Sword
weight 1.35
requirement 7
spd rtng 97
weapon length 102
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 21 pierce
Long Espada Eslavona
weight 1.25
requirement 10
spd rtng 98
weapon length 103
swing damage 29, cut
thrust damage 28 pierce
Side Sword
weight 1.3
requirement 8
spd rtng 101
weapon length 95
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
So the side sword is the fastest, has the most cut, and only 2 less pierce.
In fact, looking at this, the NCS is shit and not even remotely worth the price tag compared to the other weapons it shares the tier with. Apparently it's "role" is that it's only a 7 requirement weapon instead of 8... but seeing as how going to anything other than a multiple of 3 is kind of silly that's a moot point.
Now for some cross-comparing:
REAL cutting swords
Niuweidao
weight 1.5
requirement 6
spd rtng 101
weapon length 88 *7 less range*
swing damage 33, cut *1 more damage*
thrust damage 0 pierce *no thrust*
Military Cleaver
weight 2
requirement 10
spd rtng 96 *5 less speed*
weapon length 92 *3 less length*
swing damage 35, cut *3 more cut*
thrust damage 0 pierce *no thrust*
Italian Falchion
weight 1
requirement 6
spd rtng 101
weapon length 70 *25 less range*
swing damage 34, cut *2 more cut*
thrust damage 19 pierce *9 less pierce*
Grosse Messer
weight 1.35
requirement 8
spd rtng 99 *2 less speed*
weapon length 85 *10 less range*
swing damage 34, cut *2 more cut*
thrust damage 19 pierce *9 less pierce*
Langes Messer
weight 1.8
requirement 10
spd rtng 98 *3 less speed*
weapon length 92 *3 less range*
swing damage 33, cut *1 more cut*
thrust damage 23 pierce *5 less pierce*
Secondary Mode
*Bugged and invisible leading to kicks if you use it*
Still defending the side swords stats?
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NCS is a cav sword, why dont you look at scimitar.
Yes, I defend this, a reach of a sword is a big advantage, first strike ability + ability to get a backpedaling 2h + thrust damage is better than cut damage, in right hands can Long Espada Eslavona be very dangerous.
Grosses and Langes Messer (with secondary mode!) and the one sabre there have 34 and 33 base cut damage, which gives some other possibilities for a char development, where the shorter range will be compensate.
Side sword is the middle thing between the two strategies
When they nerf this then it will get useless. However, people who decide about items should debate here with you all whiners. N8.
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Just taking a small sample size of the top tier weapons
Elite Scimitar
weight 1.25
requirement 7
spd rtng 99
weapon length 100
swing damage 31, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce
Steel Pick
weight 2.25
requirement 12
spd rtng 100
weapon length 64
swing damage 33, pierce
thrust damage 0 pierce
Warhammer
weight 3
requirement 15
spd rtng 99
weapon length 65
swing damage 31, blunt
thrust damage 18 pierce
Knockdown
Nordic Champion's Sword
weight 1.35
requirement 7
spd rtng 97
weapon length 102
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 21 pierce
Long Espada Eslavona
weight 1.25
requirement 10
spd rtng 98
weapon length 103
swing damage 29, cut
thrust damage 28 pierce
Side Sword
weight 1.3
requirement 8
spd rtng 101
weapon length 95
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
So the side sword is the fastest, has the most cut, and only 2 less pierce.
In fact, looking at this, the NCS is shit and not even remotely worth the price tag compared to the other weapons it shares the tier with. Apparently it's "role" is that it's only a 7 requirement weapon instead of 8... but seeing as how going to anything other than a multiple of 3 is kind of silly that's a moot point.
Now for some cross-comparing:
REAL cutting swords
Niuweidao
weight 1.5
requirement 6
spd rtng 101
weapon length 88 *7 less range*
swing damage 33, cut *1 more damage*
thrust damage 0 pierce *no thrust*
Military Cleaver
weight 2
requirement 10
spd rtng 96 *5 less speed*
weapon length 92 *3 less length*
swing damage 35, cut *3 more cut*
thrust damage 0 pierce *no thrust*
Italian Falchion
weight 1
requirement 6
spd rtng 101
weapon length 70 *25 less range*
swing damage 34, cut *2 more cut*
thrust damage 19 pierce *9 less pierce*
Grosse Messer
weight 1.35
requirement 8
spd rtng 99 *2 less speed*
weapon length 85 *10 less range*
swing damage 34, cut *2 more cut*
thrust damage 19 pierce *9 less pierce*
Langes Messer
weight 1.8
requirement 10
spd rtng 98 *3 less speed*
weapon length 92 *3 less range*
swing damage 33, cut *1 more cut*
thrust damage 23 pierce *5 less pierce*
Secondary Mode
*Bugged and invisible leading to kicks if you use it*
Still defending the side swords stats?
thats why i say rebalance side and champion.
make champion 36-37 cut when masterwork, so become the most powerful in term of dmg, no modifcation on speed/reach.
remove 3 dmg from sidesword, so remain the faster but not anymore with same dmg of the other.
so any sword have a good point.
sarranid = range /balanced dmg/speed
eslavona = range+pierce
nordic = dmg + balanced speed/reach
side sword = faster + a dmg comparable to the cut of the eslavona. , less reach.
steel pick .i tryed it and imho is fine, sure pierce dmg work better vs armors, but is fucking short, and really expose the player to backpedal work of all 2handers. also have only 3 attacks, and you need to facehugh ppl.
another weapon that imho need back some love is the military pick, many patch ago where 90 reach, since the nerf no one anymore used it, and now all use the hammer. imho need back at list 80 reach
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i play this mod since we where only 50 ppl in 1 server.
the main problem is that every couple of months we place new sword, that made the old one completely useless instead give to any "final sword" a peculiar power and weakness.
when i started the top was the elite scimitar, than the eslavona, than now the sidesword.
sidesword need a rebalance, cant be the faster with same dmg of the others. for the price of 5cm of reach
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NCS is a cav sword
No. :rolleyes:
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I've been using the side sword for a few days now and agree with ManOfWar's original post. I'm not an above-average player when it comes to killing people but I've ended up 10+/3 on a couple maps recently with just the side sword, light armour, and a shield at a moderate level. Although my clan and experience with 1handers is certainly a factor here, I normally average only 2:1 with other top tier 1h weapons. Though I'll surely [ab]use it till it's tweaked, the side sword should be adjusted a little bit before 1handers select it to the point of fixation.
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I miss my damned long espada, :(
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^I loved mine back when there were fewer masterwork 1-handers floating about. Now I use a little warhammer to get by (though I think its starting to cause some ire amongst the siege crowd).
When times get rough you need to go back to first principles: the right mouse mutton and blunt damage to the head.
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I tried my trusty long espada right after the patch, but it felt clumsy and weird. It got stuck in the air/random objects far too often (you know, when I get stuck in a wall and the guy with the flameberge just swings through it) and the thrust seemed to bounce a lot more.
That's when I decided to go with the sidesword, as it's a decent thrusting weapon and it's shorter, so more manageable in tight spaces.
Been using the sidesword since a week after the last major patch release.
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i play this mod since we where only 50 ppl in 1 server.
the main problem is that every couple of months we place new sword, that made the old one completely useless instead give to any "final sword" a peculiar power and weakness.
when i started the top was the elite scimitar, than the eslavona, than now the sidesword.
sidesword need a rebalance, cant be the faster with same dmg of the others. for the price of 5cm of reach
I totally agree with Vicious on this one.
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Sideswords also seem to get "phantom reach" more than any other sword... they don't look as if they hit you but they did.
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Well the side sword is a wee bit fast,
Due to this inarguable fact, what shall the speed be decreased too? 99? 100?
I am unsure what a proper speed would be.
Any suggestions?
Edit- I am a one hander and I use the side sword, I do not use a Masterwork mine is Tempered, I made this thread because I have heard complaints and I just want to make sure it does not get nerfed to hell
i like people like this, they feel the item they use is a bit much and not wanting it done worng, offer ways to fix it, i too think it might be too fast, but maybe lower the speed to 98
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I've been swapping around my MW sidesword and a warhammer (3 speed difference) and I don't really notice a difference in swingspeed. Maybe it's more obvious for the one on the receiving end though.
I dueled vargas a few times on the duel server and even with a shield he hits so fast I can barely see his sidesword. But then again, Sunas did the exact same thing with a longsword.
Some people don't seem to have any trouble whatsoever with blocking my sidesword attacks, others I can kill by just changing direction of my slashes and hit them every time. I'm not an agility build though, I have 12 agility.
I can see how the sidesword gets rediculously fast when combined with an agility build, but it will need a lot more hits to kill anyone.
Annoying when coupled with a shield, but for a competent manual blocker not any harder to beat than an agility built longsword user.
All in all, I think -2 speed is justified.
Personally I think the cut damage should get a -1 too.
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with your "Agi 12 build" and shield you are hell fast with side sword Spawny.
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The main problem with sidesword is that almost every 1hander use it... It makes a realy good style with the huscarl... "Sarcasm off".
I guess for two reasons :
- it's an op weapon.
- it's the top 1handed weapon
If ppl could have more choice i guess we will see more diversity.
Also if it's nerfed, you will see a lot less ppl using it
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I've been swapping around my MW sidesword and a warhammer (3 speed difference) and I don't really notice a difference in swingspeed. Maybe it's more obvious for the one on the receiving end though.
I dueled vargas a few times on the duel server and even with a shield he hits so fast I can barely see his sidesword. But then again, Sunas did the exact same thing with a longsword.
Some people don't seem to have any trouble whatsoever with blocking my sidesword attacks, others I can kill by just changing direction of my slashes and hit them every time. I'm not an agility build though, I have 12 agility.
I can see how the sidesword gets rediculously fast when combined with an agility build, but it will need a lot more hits to kill anyone.
Annoying when coupled with a shield, but for a competent manual blocker not any harder to beat than an agility built longsword user.
All in all, I think -2 speed is justified.
Personally I think the cut damage should get a -1 too.
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Please elaborate.
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You can't take it literally obviously. Side sword isn't best but above average (nearly best) at everything. In terms of balance, I guess it should be average, or just provide alternatives. As I said, I don't really care if it gets nerfed or not, just that it would be nice to have more top tier swords to choose from in 1h lines (by either nerfing side sword or introduce new swords/buff the current ones).
instead of nerfing, making one bad, shouldn't then be another 1-3 swords get better?
There is nothing wrong beeing jack of all trades, as long it isn't the best in all the things that are compared. It is a contribute to playing style, there are the spammatars which is fine if they want to play like that, there are those with warhammer, which do terrible damage often twice after knockdown, and other specialities. The sitesword has no special ability but its versatility through speed.
About the speed, there are so many 2h/polearm spammers out there, some with weapons havy enough to stun my shield long enough that i rarely can counter attack.
I was asked often and many speced shielders and wondered, why dont tehy attack, they cant, they have to count when there shield isn't stuned, if they wait too long the shield is destroyed and they are dead meat. Only thing to counter 2h Spam in my eyes is to get myself high agi, 27 at least and a sword with high speed too.
So if you reduce it, i perhaps have to go with 6 str and 30 agi, to do anything and i will take the weapons which still works with that requirements, perhaps i'll pecome a spammitar myself then and the next thing you know is that people whant a nerf on it.
The weapon is surly only as good as the build and the player behind it, nerf it and if myself and otheres with sitesword still get their kills there will be voices to nerf it again, it wasnt enough.
@Vicious666
i would choose speed anytime over other abilities, so take away some cut damage, but let me have my speed, otherwise you have to nerf a lot of 2h/polearm weapons speed too. If you want to have different playstyles you need weapons who have stregth in different areas, sitesword special area is the speed.
@Spawny
agreed, but i wouldnt touch the speed, perhaps take away 1-2 points cut damage.
@Blondin again make other one handers better in their special way, you want to increase different playstyles, not decrease them through nerfing one thing.
If i battle havy armored guys i need 7-10+ hits to bring em down, as i go for low armor because of weigth i get 1hited. Taking away too much damage brings me to my shield which cant sustain forever, even with my invested 9 skillpoints for long duels, so i can battle even the best players with shieldbreakers long enough to perhaps at a good day i can provoke them to make mistakes. There are several players out there who havent got an agi based built but can win against me 4 out of 5 times or more, me as i have a agi based build and a good internet connection, doesnt have an excuse there, i just suck, i know :D
BTW a lot of what i see in this thread is complaining/whining from 2h who seemingly get killed by 1h, that can not be, may not be, will not be, in their minds.
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@Vicious666
i would choose speed anytime over other abilities, so take away some cut damage, but let me have my speed, otherwise you have to nerf a lot of 2h/polearm weapons speed too. If you want to have different playstyles you need weapons who have stregth in different areas, sitesword special area is the speed.
Actually, if you're using the huscarl with it, you're not experiencing the full benefits of speed. To do that, you need to use one of the smaller, faster shields or fight shieldless- though the latter makes you very vulnerable to weapon stun, which negates most of the benefits of speed.
All in all, I'd say a reasonable nerf is to take away damage or speed by 2. No need to do both. This should line it up as an option with the other one-handed high tier weapons without making it a no-brainer.
Now, my crazy self would actually prefer something a little more ridiculous, like taking away 6 or 7 damage and actually buffing speed by 1 or 2.
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i just suck, i know :D
Sorry Kinngrimm but this just about sums your entire post.....everything else what you wrote matters not when you take this into consideration. :twisted:
You dont need 27 agi, 9 in huscarl and the fastest 1h sword there is, to beat 2h spammers. 18/18 does the trick, if you know what youre doing. :wink:
But i have to admit you have a different build then most of the shielders which makes you kind of interesting, youre an annoying pest with your "unbreakable shield" and thus always a pleasure to kill. :)
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Actually, if you're using the huscarl with it, you're not experiencing the full benefits of speed. To do that, you need to use one of the smaller, faster shields or fight shieldless- though the latter makes you very vulnerable to weapon stun, which negates most of the benefits of speed.
All in all, I'd say a reasonable nerf is to take away damage or speed by 2. No need to do both. This should line it up as an option with the other one-handed high tier weapons without making it a no-brainer.
Now, my crazy self would actually prefer something a little more ridiculous, like taking away 6 or 7 damage and actually buffing speed by 1 or 2.
i know that shield makes me slower, but as i started, i couldnt block at all so i choose shield. No big changes there :D Still sucking at blocking and i am mostly dead after loosing my shield. And the huscarl too gets stuned a lot or breaks at some point. In the beginning i had to choose if i wanted to survive my shield more strikes or am i faster and i have choosen then in favour of my huscarl, when i started playing i didnt know anything about feinting and other things, still not very good at it.
Take away both damage and speed would make me do 3 more retirements for another weapon i guess, before i can go for max level, and i want to heirloom my ligth armor too, which i havent got till now. Taking away damage wouldn't be a reason for me perhaps to change sword because i mainly go for speed to get those freakin 2h spammers. 2h spammers where and still are the main reason i constructed my build the way it is and choose one of the fastest 1h weapons there are.
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Sorry Kinngrimm but this just about sums your entire post.....everything else what you wrote matters not when you take this into consideration. :twisted:
You dont need 27 agi, 9 in huscarl and the fastest 1h sword there is, to beat 2h spammers. 18/18 does the trick, if you know what youre doing. :wink:
But i have to admit you have a different build then most of the shielders which makes you kind of interesting, youre an annoying pest with your "unbreakable shield" and thus always a pleasure to kill. :)
EDIT: sry off topic
i like you too :lol:
The 27 agi was in my 3rd to 7th generation the main purpose because of 2h spam, now the other important reason for me is athletics and my shield skill.
Athletics to get in places where otehr wouldnt imagine someone goes to get behind ennemy lines and the shield skill because i suck ;) at blocking without shield.
BTW i enjoy killing u too as u are better then me, it is allways a great success for my ego 8-)
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Please elaborate.
if you already soo noob to not feel any difference between a mw side and a hammer. all you deserver is that gif
LOL
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if you already soo noob to not feel any difference between a mw side and a hammer. all you deserver is that gif
LOL
As I stated, I have 12 agility. With a sidesword I can't get outspammed by most players (unless they have 27 agility or more) and I can't outspam anyone (not even the 30/9 crushbuilds).
With the warhammer/steel pick/long espada it's the exact same thing. Can't get outspammed most of the time and I can't outspam anyone.
So for me there is no difference.
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As I stated, I have 12 agility. With a sidesword I can't get outspammed by most players (unless they have 27 agility or more) and I can't outspam anyone (not even the 30/9 crushbuilds).
With the warhammer/steel pick/long espada it's the exact same thing. Can't get outspammed most of the time and I can't outspam anyone.
So for me there is no difference.
It's all about turning into your swings. I know cause I suck at doing just that. Like I fear stepping in to attack pikes and long mauls.
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The sidesword combines exceptional speed, strength, and reach. That's why it's overused, and OP, and needing of a small adjustment. I'm with MoW in calling for -1 speed or something similar. I'm happy to fight with and against a good 1h weapon, just not one that can take out half my health with a knick.
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The sidesword combines exceptional speed, strength, and reach. That's why it's overused, and OP, and needing of a small adjustment. I'm with MoW in calling for -1 speed or something similar. I'm happy to fight with and against a good 1h weapon, just not one that can take out half my health with a knick.
I aim to kill in 1 hit.
Besides, the 1h axes, some swords and the steel pick all deal more damage.
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I aim to kill in 1 hit.
Besides, the 1h axes, some swords and the steel pick all deal more damage.
But they don't have the stupid speed and reach on them.
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I aim to kill in 1 hit.
Besides, the 1h axes, some swords and the steel pick all deal more damage.
The side sword should NOT have 32c ffs. It's a fencing style weapon, not a cleaver. The niuweidao only has 33c, is shorter, same speed, no thrust. The cleaver is slower, shorter, only has 35c, no thrust. The freakin nordic champ sword is slower, has the same cut, less pierce and has less than 10 reach over the side sword. All in all, the side sword is rediculous in stats. Let it remain fast, but nerf the shit out of it's cut damage as it makes no sense and makes all the other 1h options crap by comparison. Why choose a cleaving sword when you're going to be shorter, slower and have no cut bonus while limiting yourself to having no thrust for pierce?
From an internal balance perspective, the side sword makes all other 1h SWORDS obsolete.
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The side sword should NOT have 32c ffs. It's a fencing style weapon, not a cleaver. The niuweidao only has 33c, is shorter, same speed, no thrust. The cleaver is slower, shorter, only has 35c, no thrust. The freakin nordic champ sword is slower, has the same cut, less pierce and has less than 10 reach over the side sword. All in all, the side sword is rediculous in stats. Let it remain fast, but nerf the shit out of it's cut damage as it makes no sense and makes all the other 1h options crap by comparison. Why choose a cleaving sword when you're going to be shorter, slower and have no cut bonus while limiting yourself to having no thrust for pierce?
From an internal balance perspective, the side sword makes all other 1h SWORDS obsolete.
It does.
I would love to see it get it's swing and thrust damage swapped, making it a poor slashing weapon, but awesome stabbing weapon :P
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As I stated, I have 12 agility. With a sidesword I can't get outspammed by most players (unless they have 27 agility or more) and I can't outspam anyone (not even the 30/9 crushbuilds).
With the warhammer/steel pick/long espada it's the exact same thing. Can't get outspammed most of the time and I can't outspam anyone.
So for me there is no difference.
probably becouse you not know what is the difference between left and right swing, and what means follow the swing with the movement.
i am sure i can outspam you with my eslavona 100 speed
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Said it before, but side sword needs a nerf, and the other 1h swords dont need a boost to balance it out. (Wheres the "look&style" modifier-nerf for the sidesword btw?)
2h/polearm and 1h + shield SHOULD NOT be equals in a 1vs1 situation. Shield brings in too many other powerful benefits in battle like multiple enemy handling, arrow protection, simple blocking, forcefield etc..
Foot soldiers balance:
Advantages:
1h + shield 2h/polearm
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Multiple enemies Damage
Missile protection Range
Added armor Speed(?)
Easy blocking Less weight
Shield soaking hits
1h shield is slightly more poweful by idea and usefullness, so it's 1vs1 usefulness should be a bit nerfed
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Said it before, but side sword needs a nerf, and the other 1h swords dont need a boost to balance it out. (Wheres the "look&style" modifier-nerf for the sidesword btw?)
2h/polearm and 1h + shield SHOULD NOT be equals in a 1vs1 situation. Shield brings in too many other powerful benefits in battle like multiple enemy handling, arrow protection, simple blocking, forcefield etc..
Foot soldiers balance:
Advantages:
1h + shield 2h/polearm
------------------------------------------------------
Multiple enemies Damage
Missile protection Range
Added armor Speed(?)
Easy blocking Less weight
Shield soaking hits
1h shield is slightly more poweful by idea and usefullness, so it's 1vs1 usefulness should be a bit nerfed
the reach of 2h/polearms is kind of a shield, noone just runs to them and strikes them, you have to be very carefull
they surly aren't equal, shield breaks so often even with my masterwork huscarl and shield strength 9, which only few players go with, in a 1:1 vs great axe like Searader_Thor after 7-9 hits the shield is gone, i then hear only "awsome shield", normaly they crumble with 4 hits, nevertheless, with out a shield, a 1h/shield guy often just fails(at least if its me who just cant block shit), so if you take the shields into the discussion Thomek, please be gentle about us shield noobs. If i have more then 3 ennemies i am mostly dead, but i have seen lots of 2h/polearm guys who can get out of those situations more or less unscratched. Missile protection ... are we still talking about the sitesword? So i get it that 2h/polearms are pissed over 1h/shielders who kill them, they need less skill and get more benefits .. is that a fact now?
less range
less damaged
distributing points into an additional skill bcz of shield, less skill points for specialisation
speed of sooooo many 2h/polearms is so incredible fast, but a smaller lighter weapon, cant be faster ... very reasonable.
Missile Protection ... in this game? I got shot all the time. Yes i can catch lots of arrows and throwing weapons, so when i come into a figth my shield finnaly breaks and iam dead ...
(sarkasm)Till this discussion i thought this game was mainly about personal skills, now i am not quite so sure anymore, it seems the best weapons just has to win. If you got masterwork you just win(/sarkasm)
I have read several other threads in the forums who mentioned that 1h/shield was allready nerfed into oblivion, i dont know about that, i just use what is there and try to make the best out of it.
I still say perhaps less cut dmg, perhaps instead more thrust dmg, but don't change the speed.
This sword is all about versatility, i loose regularly against all weapons if i come to a good player with his specialised weapon and a good tactic. The mind is their shield ;)
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probably becouse you not know what is the difference between left and right swing, and what means follow the swing with the movement.
i am sure i can outspam you with my eslavona 100 speed
Wait, you can actually determine the direction of your swing yourself? AND you can move while swinging? Never thought of that.
Been playing shielder since warband was first released, but I never even tried that.
[/sarcasm]
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The relative weaknesses of polearms/2h vs 1h+shield was kind of implied in the advantages table, but it was perhaps unclear.
Only 7-9 hits from a specialized shield killer weapon yeah? :-) And afterwards you can theoretically keep blocking manually. The sidesword is practically equal to the katana in stats, and I think it qualifies as an equal duel weapon to a great axe.. (You got a major speed advantage, he the stun and range advantage)
Of course this game is all about personal skill (and we dream about teamwork). That's why we are so anal about weapon balance! :-D
Shields have been nerfed, by making them weigh more and some other changes to prevent turtles with 3x shields. Spamitar used to be the fastest 1h and it got its range nerfed. (because the computed range was longer than the animation range..) Besides it can't even thrust.
Personally I think that pirat-like side sword was just trolling from the devs.. Choosing a 1h wep is now a no-brainer, making all the other 1 handers obsolete. If the devs get their brains together they will rebalance 2h also so not everyone runs around with the greatsword sisters.
I wish weapons in general was more equal in "power" (an equation of speed, damage, range, animations, attack directions)
then price could be more for the looks..
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you missed the sarcasm tag arround
"Only 7-9 hits from a specialized shield killer weapon yeah? :-)"
so what did you do with 9 skillpoints? getting 4 more attribute points?
"And afterwards you can theoretically keep blocking manually."
In my case emphazise the "theoretically", anyone who has seen my shield fail knows that i am going down soon after
"The sidesword is practically equal to the katana in stats,"
practically if you dont add the shield weigth and animation time from the shield
"Of course this game is all about personal skill (and we dream about teamwork). That's why we are so anal about weapon balance! :-D"
you got that right :)
"Personally I think that pirat-like side sword was just trolling from the devs..Choosing a 1h wep is now a no-brainer, making all the other 1 handers obsolete. If the devs get their brains together they will rebalance 2h also so not everyone runs around with the greatsword sisters."
I started playing after the sitesword was introduced. But it wasn't my first weapon of choice. Long Espada and Wakasashi were my first weapons. Wakasashi was nice but looked awful with a shield, and long espada was just too long for my taste, got stuck everywhere. Sitesword was versatile, beside its speed it hasn't got the top place in any other area, and i chose speed over max cut//blunt/pierce dmg or weapon lenght etc.. Perhaps i am anal too, about my favourite weapon, i will play a little more with my thrower/polearm guy to get into the brain of 2h/polearms and blocking so i can see what they are whinning about and join them ;).
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It seems like a lot of people use Sidesword, but by no means all. I see Nordic Champion Swords, Knightly Arming Swords, Scimitars etc all the time on the battlefield. Personally, I dropped it after a few battles; it was too short for me, and the speed bonus didn't really make up for it in my mind. Even the Long Espada Eslanova still doesn't feel as right as mighty reach of the Sarranid Cavalry Sword.
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Hey guys just a question, did you think the long espada needed a damage nerf pre patch or no?
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Hey guys just a question, did you think the long espada needed a damage nerf pre patch or no?
Yes.
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Hey guys just a question, did you think the long espada needed a damage nerf pre patch or no?
Tiny one. Very tiny. Right now it feels just the tiniest bit too nerfed. No biggie, but it's the reason I don't use it nowadays. Otherwise it's a great weapon.
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I love my axe+shield, it doesn't bother me that the sidesword seems a touch OP. I'd say it's probably a good idea to slightly reduce it's cutting damage, and maybe speed. But it's not a massively OP weapon, and it's obviously cool looking, so maybe -1 point cutting damage is enough.
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I'd say it's probably a good idea to slightly reduce it's cutting damage
31 cut damage for a 100+ speed 95 length basically foppish fencing style sword is still too much. Real cutting swords, which are shorter on average (cleavers, sabres, IE: No thrusts) only do between 32-35 cut. The side sword should not be even close to the same cut damage. 28 cut for the side sword MAX imo.
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28-30 cut would be ok i guess but then please, don't reduce speed.
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Perhaps 25-27? This would make a masterwork one about 30(?).
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don't forget the ghost reach of the elite spamitar
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The Side Sword was a military sword of the 16th and 17th century Renaissance period that also achieved popularity among civilians, due to its relatively light weight and quickness.
It also had an advantage over its contemporary, the rapier, in having the ability to cut efficiently as well as thrust. Side swords were often the weapon of choice for sword and buckler fighting.
http://www.casiberia.com/prod_Detail.aspx?id=SH2203
This 3-5 people never end QQ Whine here.
"Meeh.., im hobby historian, side sword is a rapier."
"Meeh.., my LEE, meh.. it was nerfed, meh im so uber with my masterwork(!!!) side sword." (whine here but never switch to another sword!)
"Meeh.., I have masterwork huscarl and run useless around with that, meh 1h dont need to make any damage, at least not for being wolves..."
"Meeh.., Im a super ninja, my weeaboo sword need to ourspam everyone, meh... meh side sword has a thrust, OMG!!!"
"Meeh.., I dont like style of side sword" (but has no problems with poleaxes, morions from same time period or fantasy weapons)
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http://www.casiberia.com/prod_Detail.aspx?id=SH2203
This 3-5 people never end QQ Whine here.
"Meeh.., im hobby historian, side sword is a rapier."
"Meeh.., my LEE, meh.. it was nerfed, meh im so uber with my masterwork(!!!) side sword." (whine here but never switch to another sword!)
"Meeh.., I have masterwork huscarl and run useless around with that, meh 1h dont need to make any damage, at least not for being wolves..."
"Meeh.., Im a super ninja, my weeaboo sword need to ourspam everyone, meh... meh side sword has a thrust, OMG!!!"
"Meeh.., I dont like style of side sword" (but has no problems with poleaxes, morions from same time period or fantasy weapons)
LoL at you Karmazyn. First of all, the side sword in the game is not the same as the one you presented, it's actually something else, in one of the side sword threads i said what exactly this fantasy side sword is (ie, what parts of real swords were inspiration). Second thing, the sword deal more cut damage than similar swords DESIGNED for swinging. So even if side sword should not suck at swinging, it should not excel at it either (actually it is close).
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As interesting your quote and link was
"Meeh.., I have masterwork huscarl and run useless around with that, meh 1h dont need to make any damage, at least not for being wolves..."
This i find offensive.
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If the Espada Eslavona didn't lack so much in range it would be even more of a favorite for me. Still, it's my favorite one handed sword, I used it for a couple months with no shield.
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Don't nerf the speed, or really not much. Instead reduce the size to what is really shown, goddamn it.
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There is no reason side sword should be 101 base speed with the stats it has.
It should be 99 speed.