Reasonable Side Sword Nerf

[Gorath]

Sadly you prove you have no frigging idea what you're talking about. Backpedaling gives a negative speed bonus, which means your damage is shit.

It is Michael after all.  Everything he posts is garbage and he's probably the worst player in the mod.  Just ignore the post when you see his name.

[Karmazyn]

I heirloomed my side sword twice, I use it without shield at the moment.
I see me complete disadvantage in compare to other classes.
Some people here just because they cant deal with someone with a side sword… write bs.

[Ghazan]

The only reason I didnt choose to heirloom this sword is because I thought it might be a bit too short if I decide to go cavalry.  Cost is a non issue once youve played for a few weeks.

Maybe leave the damage and speed alone but reduce the length even more to 90-92.

[Vicious666]

i am a 1hander user


and tbh  sidesword  have too much  dmg+speed.     is the faster 1h sword, together with the same dmg    of other slower swords.     
the only downside is what  8 cm less than the top 1h longest sword?         and only -5 from the majority ?    have also pierce attack.       

i think that a sword  should not have  more than 1 advantage respect  others.

example? eslavona? top pierce dmg  less cut dmg than others,
sarranid cavalry sworD? top reach. good cut dmg,   slower
nordic champion?       balanced between eslavona and sarranid    , good cut dmg, slower

sidesworD?  same dmg than  sarranid and champion, but also faster,   so need to  chose 1, or  remain faster than all other, at cost of some dmg,     or lose speed at cost of more dmg., since is borned as a very fast  sword, imho should lose 2-3 point dmg,      and remain fast as it is or max -1/2 speed.     








imho  champion  need some love.

fact is every sword have a sense.

sarranid = good for cavalry   good cut dmg+ top reach       slower
long eslavona = good for pierce dmg+ 2nd top reach     fast
champion ?   not top reach, not top dmg, not top speed, not not pierce dmg.
sidesword  =   good cut dmg+top speed  , - reach


so sidesword need to lose some dmg,      otherwise is pretty much a faster   champion.

and champion need a role, maybe more cut dmg, so become top dmg 1h sword. at cost of speed/reach .     









ps: just for a clue, i not use champion

[bruce]

I heirloomed my side sword twice, I use it without shield at the moment.
I see me complete disadvantage in compare to other classes.

Now use it with a shield.

1h no shield isn't as competitive a class as others, because if it was, balance would be broken since every 1h with shield (which is a very competitive class), once shield gets broken, becomes a onehander without a shield.


Try using a normal onehander, and then compare it to the sidesword. It IS broken. It is way too good compared to the other onehanders.

[Xant]

1h is fine without shield in 1v1, but it's disadvantaged in any other case, as it should be.

[Gorath]

Try using a normal onehander, and then compare it to the sidesword. It IS broken. It is way too good compared to the other onehanders.

Yeah.  I think the entire 1h line could use some rebalancing.  97 speed should be the slowest any 1-her sits at imo, and the shorter swords definately need to be the only ones in the 103 speed range.
So basically 1hers length - speed ratio should look something like:
Length                    Speed
<90                         102-103
90-94                      100-101
95-99                       99-100
100+                        97-98

IMO of course.
Damage is a whole nother matter as the design of the weapon kind of dictates what it's going to do, but for instance the side sword (fencing-ish sword) being the top tier cut sword is dumbtarded when you look at it.
*Why IS the side sword the best cutting sword?  How the hell does it even look like it's a cutting sword?  32 cut, really?*

[Karmazyn]

Now use it with a shield.

1h no shield isn't as competitive a class as others, because if it was, balance would be broken since every 1h with shield (which is a very competitive class), once shield gets broken, becomes a onehander without a shield.


Try using a normal onehander, and then compare it to the sidesword. It IS broken. It is way too good compared to the other onehanders.

I have another char with scimitar without shield.
Side sword is fine as allrounder, but its not op, you just dont understand melee mechanics (no offense).

[MountedRhader]

Its fine..Don't touch it, and no I don't use one

[Nemeth]

I have another char with scimitar without shield.
Side sword is fine as allrounder, but its not op, you just dont understand melee mechanics (no offense).

You have obviously no clue what you are talking about, thus there is no reason to react to your posts whatsoever from now on.

[balbaroth]

side sword is op , i have been saying that since the day it was upped to be the best sword in game ,  That freaking toothpick has more cut than a lot of 1h's
not to mention its the fastest of the so call top tier 1 handers

           the price argument is lol... if you retired 2 or 3 times to heirloom it , you dont have any problem with money

                       people dont care about the money they want the best weapon possible 

[Gorath]

Side sword is fine as allrounder, but its not op, you just dont understand melee mechanics (no offense).

Just taking a small sample size of the top tier weapons

Elite Scimitar
weight 1.25
requirement 7
spd rtng 99
weapon length 100
swing damage 31, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce

Steel Pick
weight 2.25
requirement 12
spd rtng 100
weapon length 64
swing damage 33, pierce
thrust damage 0 pierce
   
Warhammer
weight 3
requirement 15
spd rtng 99
weapon length 65
swing damage 31, blunt
thrust damage 18 pierce
Knockdown   

Nordic Champion's Sword
weight 1.35
requirement 7
spd rtng 97
weapon length 102
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 21 pierce
   
Long Espada Eslavona
weight 1.25
requirement 10
spd rtng 98
weapon length 103
swing damage 29, cut
thrust damage 28 pierce   

Side Sword
weight 1.3
requirement 8
spd rtng 101
weapon length 95
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce

So the side sword is the fastest, has the most cut, and only 2 less pierce.

In fact, looking at this, the NCS is shit and not even remotely worth the price tag compared to the other weapons it shares the tier with.  Apparently it's "role" is that it's only a 7 requirement weapon instead of 8... but seeing as how going to anything other than a multiple of 3 is kind of silly that's a moot point.

Now for some cross-comparing:
REAL cutting swords
Niuweidao
weight 1.5
requirement 6
spd rtng 101
weapon length 88 *7 less range*
swing damage 33, cut *1 more damage*
thrust damage 0 pierce *no thrust*   

Military Cleaver
weight 2
requirement 10
spd rtng 96 *5 less speed*
weapon length 92 *3 less length*
swing damage 35, cut *3 more cut*
thrust damage 0 pierce  *no thrust*

Italian Falchion
weight 1
requirement 6
spd rtng 101
weapon length 70 *25 less range*
swing damage 34, cut *2 more cut*
thrust damage 19 pierce *9 less pierce*

Grosse Messer
weight 1.35
requirement 8
spd rtng 99 *2 less speed*
weapon length 85 *10 less range*
swing damage 34, cut *2 more cut*
thrust damage 19 pierce *9 less pierce*   

Langes Messer
weight 1.8
requirement 10
spd rtng 98 *3 less speed*
weapon length 92 *3 less range*
swing damage 33, cut *1 more cut*
thrust damage 23 pierce *5 less pierce*
Secondary Mode
*Bugged and invisible leading to kicks if you use it*

Still defending the side swords stats?

[Karmazyn]

NCS is a cav sword, why don’t you look at scimitar.
Yes, I defend this, a reach of a sword is a big advantage, first strike ability + ability to get a backpedaling 2h + thrust damage is better than cut damage, in right hands can Long Espada Eslavona be very dangerous.
Grosses and Langes Messer (with secondary mode!)  and the one sabre there have 34 and 33 base cut damage, which gives some other possibilities for a char development, where the shorter range will be compensate.
Side sword is the middle thing between the two strategies… When they nerf this then it will get useless. However, people who decide about items should debate here with you all “whiners”. N8.

[Vicious666]

Just taking a small sample size of the top tier weapons

Elite Scimitar
weight 1.25
requirement 7
spd rtng 99
weapon length 100
swing damage 31, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce

Steel Pick
weight 2.25
requirement 12
spd rtng 100
weapon length 64
swing damage 33, pierce
thrust damage 0 pierce
   
Warhammer
weight 3
requirement 15
spd rtng 99
weapon length 65
swing damage 31, blunt
thrust damage 18 pierce
Knockdown   

Nordic Champion's Sword
weight 1.35
requirement 7
spd rtng 97
weapon length 102
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 21 pierce
   
Long Espada Eslavona
weight 1.25
requirement 10
spd rtng 98
weapon length 103
swing damage 29, cut
thrust damage 28 pierce   

Side Sword
weight 1.3
requirement 8
spd rtng 101
weapon length 95
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce

So the side sword is the fastest, has the most cut, and only 2 less pierce.

In fact, looking at this, the NCS is shit and not even remotely worth the price tag compared to the other weapons it shares the tier with.  Apparently it's "role" is that it's only a 7 requirement weapon instead of 8... but seeing as how going to anything other than a multiple of 3 is kind of silly that's a moot point.

Now for some cross-comparing:
REAL cutting swords
Niuweidao
weight 1.5
requirement 6
spd rtng 101
weapon length 88 *7 less range*
swing damage 33, cut *1 more damage*
thrust damage 0 pierce *no thrust*   

Military Cleaver
weight 2
requirement 10
spd rtng 96 *5 less speed*
weapon length 92 *3 less length*
swing damage 35, cut *3 more cut*
thrust damage 0 pierce  *no thrust*

Italian Falchion
weight 1
requirement 6
spd rtng 101
weapon length 70 *25 less range*
swing damage 34, cut *2 more cut*
thrust damage 19 pierce *9 less pierce*

Grosse Messer
weight 1.35
requirement 8
spd rtng 99 *2 less speed*
weapon length 85 *10 less range*
swing damage 34, cut *2 more cut*
thrust damage 19 pierce *9 less pierce*   

Langes Messer
weight 1.8
requirement 10
spd rtng 98 *3 less speed*
weapon length 92 *3 less range*
swing damage 33, cut *1 more cut*
thrust damage 23 pierce *5 less pierce*
Secondary Mode
*Bugged and invisible leading to kicks if you use it*

Still defending the side swords stats?

thats why i say  rebalance        side and champion.

make champion  36-37 cut  when masterwork,  so become the most  powerful in term of dmg,      no modifcation on speed/reach.

remove 3 dmg  from    sidesword, so remain the faster  but not anymore with same dmg of the other.     

so any sword have a  good point.

sarranid = range  /balanced dmg/speed
 eslavona = range+pierce
nordic =  dmg +  balanced speed/reach
side sword =  faster + a dmg comparable to the cut of the eslavona. ,  less reach.

steel pick .i tryed it and imho is fine, sure pierce dmg  work better vs armors, but  is fucking short, and really expose the player to backpedal work of all 2handers.  also have only 3 attacks, and you need to facehugh ppl.


another weapon that imho need back some love is the military pick,   many patch ago where 90 reach,    since the nerf no one anymore used it,     and now all use the hammer.    imho need back at list 80 reach

[Vicious666]

i play this mod since we where only 50 ppl in 1 server.

the main problem is that every couple of months we place new sword, that made the old one completely useless instead give to any  "final sword"    a peculiar power and weakness.

when i started the top was  the elite scimitar,  than the eslavona, than now the sidesword. 


sidesword need a rebalance, cant be the faster  with same dmg     of the others.     for the price of   5cm of reach