cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Joker86 on January 24, 2012, 10:43:24 pm

Title: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Joker86 on January 24, 2012, 10:43:24 pm
The question is simple: do you, or do you not enjoy playing the game?

There can be many reasons for this, you could be archer and hating the last nerf, you could be infantry and love the reduced ranged damage you take, you could be cavalry and enjoy the increased life span of your horse, or you could be infantry that enjoys the reduced damage from arrows but hates the increased number of cavalry on the servers.

Just vote your general opinion here. Let's keep this as simple as possible.
Title: Re: Survey: are you content with the current state of the game?
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on January 24, 2012, 10:44:20 pm
Yes but archers need a buff (or a de-nerf)

xbow>bow
Title: Re: Survey: are you content with the current state of the game?
Post by: Darkkarma on January 24, 2012, 10:44:41 pm
Not really, no. The whole blanket ranged nerf was definitely a topping point, but i've been displeased with the direction this game in general has been going for about a month now.
Title: Re: Survey: are you content with the current state of the game?
Post by: Adamar on January 24, 2012, 10:45:59 pm
Archers need a buff yay, that patch made everything worse.
Title: Re: Survey: are you content with the current state of the game?
Post by: Overdriven on January 24, 2012, 10:47:12 pm
I always enjoy the game, it just depends on whether I use my main or my alts.

But to make things simple I put no, because with my main it sucks.
Title: Re: Survey: are you content with the current state of the game?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 24, 2012, 10:48:57 pm
Overall I'm content with the game play and "balance" of the game.  I really dislike a lot of the recent nerfs (especially to ranged body shots).  I think about 3 months ago, right before the pikes/long spears going from 2 to 3 slots, the game play was great and very balanced.

Too many nerfs are my issue.  As of before the most recent archer nerf,hat even with all the other nerfs considered, the game was still very balanced, and very fun to play.  Now that you've nerfed archers, they are basically pointless.  At 12 strength, 2 iron flesh and with a mail shirt on, I was able to take an arrow while riding on a horse towards someone, and have it only take away about 1/6 or 1/7 of my hp.  That's ridiculous.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the patch
Post by: bonekuukkeli on January 24, 2012, 10:51:08 pm
Removing ladders was ok, all other... not needed and way too extreme when it affects xbows and throwing as well.

And I dislike idea of headshotting.

Nerf was too hard, and it's already seen in increasing number of cavs. All but roofcamping was quite nicely balanced before.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the patch
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 24, 2012, 10:54:47 pm
I think (not know) that archers can still do good. And I know that throwers can still be awesome (takes more than a 33% or so damage nerf to stop me from making people pissed off in EU_3!!!). I am pretty sure xbows were nerfed beyond usefullness.
And I've decided to post my biased thrower opinion: Un-nerf throwing (At the very least put it down a bit), slightly un-nerf bows (still a bit nerf though), un-nerf Xbows (atleast a bit), un-nerf HA's (completely, k? No discussing it, they need the un-nerfing, it's a fact).
Title: Re: Petition to revert the patch
Post by: Ujin on January 24, 2012, 10:57:50 pm
At first i thought archers got overnerfed. Now i think they are actually at a pretty good spot.

Xbows and Throwing need a buff atm. I wouldn't touch archery ,personally ( flame on).
Title: Re: Petition to revert the patch
Post by: Winterly on January 24, 2012, 10:58:05 pm
I'm medium infantry without a shield, agi build and I sometimes take 4-5 shots from an archer before I die...and it usually from 2 archers, if its one, I can usually chase them down and kill them.  They're way underpowered AND they're inaccurate (compared to Native [but Native goes overboard on ranged]) So please buff them back up a little.

Archers: Slight dmg OR accuracy buff
XBow: Dmg buff
Throwers: Revert them back.

ps:I have 0 IF.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the patch
Post by: Dezilagel on January 24, 2012, 10:59:34 pm
Content...? Yeah.

But throwing and xbows do need something, and cav must be kept in check.

Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Joker86 on January 24, 2012, 11:06:47 pm
I just edited the poll, to be more percise to what I am thinking of. Perhaps the question was kept too general, now it's really concrete. I hope I didn't falsificate the result by this  :?
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: LastKaze on January 24, 2012, 11:09:32 pm
Xbows need a buff soon
Title: Re: Petition to revert the patch
Post by: Meow on January 24, 2012, 11:11:22 pm
I can not promise anything but i can give you some basic stuff that is in the talks right now (hopefully without being removed for leaking stuff).

Anti cav spikes - after rageball is pretty much finished - not sure on how it will work yet but it will be some kind of area denial for cav which protects inf and might be able to block narrow passages.
Making other lances than the heavy lance useful for cav.
Improving the slow ranged weapons and mainly tweaking the last nerf so the ranged weapons are in line again, they will not be where they were before the nerf though.

Is what i got so far.
As i do not do balancing this is prone to changes but might or might not happen.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on January 24, 2012, 11:12:13 pm
I think best solution would be not to revert the nerf, but to make it less heavy. Means instead of 67% something like maybe 80% or whatever, can be tested before final decision.


But what is more important in my opinion is a change about the new bow/quiver textures. At least a change that can be downloaded if wanted :/
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: obitus on January 24, 2012, 11:12:57 pm
keep ladders removed

revert half the dmg change
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Kutlas on January 24, 2012, 11:14:06 pm
i recently changed to archery and i say no... archery is fine but throwing needs a buff
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Penitent on January 24, 2012, 11:17:57 pm
I just edited the poll, to be more percise to what I am thinking of. Perhaps the question was kept too general, now it's really concrete. I hope I didn't falsificate the result by this  :?

Yeah, the question you have for the poll is completely different than what it is now.  The results will be way off.  Lots of people are happy with the game, but would like to see the nerf rescinded.  I'd start anew for more accurate results!
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Miwiw on January 24, 2012, 11:18:09 pm
Archers are alright now imo. However I guess any shots to the head, should result in instant death, regardless the head armor.. You know thats why they are called headshots. The head armor should just be for melee hits to the head.

(and no, I am no archer currently)
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Boerenlater on January 24, 2012, 11:22:40 pm
Nerf range more plz.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Sagar on January 24, 2012, 11:29:04 pm
NO no revert. Archery is not nerfed, it is right where it should be. Or nerf them more.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Meow on January 24, 2012, 11:34:37 pm
Or nerf them more.

No.
I agree that foot archers are kinda fine.
For me it's just sad because i run a high str build and they hit me 3 times and i take like 1/3 damage max.

What really needs to be fixed is the slow crossbows and throwing.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: LastKaze on January 24, 2012, 11:35:30 pm
What really needs to be fixed is the slow crossbows and throwing.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Tears of Destiny on January 24, 2012, 11:38:39 pm
Head shots do too much damage. Remind me again why ranged headshot damage was buffed, and 210% was thought to be too low?
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Lorenzo on January 24, 2012, 11:43:40 pm
I dont even think that it is a nerf.

I've always been a mid-close range archer with lots of Wpf and I only aim at the head. For me, it's not a nerf at all, it's just a new way of calculating things so my aim and my skill is rewarded.

It's way harder to rack up kills as an archer now, and I think it's ok like that. I have to take my time and focus on an ennemy to hit his head, I can no longer just quick-shot in a big group and hoping to get a kill.

Even more cool, It's now easy to help an ally in a close range fight without having the fear of killing my friend if I miss.

The big difference i've seen is against horses, does the hs dmg is increased on horses head? If it is, it's cool, I can be even more effective taking down the cav.

To conclude; yeah it's harder to get a high score, even harder to save myself when i'm being chased but this new system reward skill rather than luck so overall it's a good change, not a nerf.

(i'm an agy based archer with a horn bow, so I have the opportynity to take my time or even miss a shot, a str based archer would probably not think like me...)
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Oggrinsky on January 24, 2012, 11:50:15 pm
As others have said; archery is fine but xbow and throwing need to be buffed. I'm quite pleased to hear there might some lance diversity soon though.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Meow on January 24, 2012, 11:57:32 pm
The big difference i've seen is against horses, does the hs dmg is increased on horses head? If it is, it's cool, I can be even more effective taking down the cav.

To conclude; yeah it's harder to get a high score, even harder to save myself when i'm being chased but this new system reward skill rather than luck so overall it's a good change, not a nerf.

(i'm an agy based archer with a horn bow, so I have the opportynity to take my time or even miss a shot, a str based archer would probably not think like me...)

Glad to hear that you feel it's going into the right direction, also as you said, lots of people went higher str to deal massive damage before.
Especially for people above 31 this is pretty hardcore.

Damage changes also apply to horses, less body damage - more head shot damage.

What i can tell everyone who is ranged right now, especially people above 30 is to wait a bit longer and not rage quit the class right away.

The goal is balance not making stuff useless.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on January 25, 2012, 12:00:21 am


(i'm an agy based archer with a horn bow, so I have the opportynity to take my time or even miss a shot, a str based archer would probably not think like me...)

True, those who went for longbows are more or less fucked now :/

And no, I'm not strength archer, before reaching lvl 32 I always had 2 wm more than pd
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Taser on January 25, 2012, 12:08:18 am
Archer here and voted no on reverting the nerf. I do believe the body shots should do more damage. I shot hobo for a test yesterday with a shirt and did 1/3 his health. I purposefully went for his chest so that's pretty low. I think the nerf is fine otherwise. Course this is a balanced archer build with a horn bow.

Xbows and throwing need to be fixed though. Throwing was fine before the patch.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Aseldo on January 25, 2012, 12:13:58 am
I voted yes, but lets be honest some good 2hander is going to die to range and get butthurt and range will get nerfed again. gg

No.
I agree that foot archers are kinda fine.
For me it's just sad because i run a high str build and they hit me 3 times and i take like 1/3 damage max.

What really needs to be fixed is the slow crossbows and throwing.

So you admit that being hit 3 times barely hurts you, but you think foot archers are fine. wat
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Meow on January 25, 2012, 12:21:50 am
What do you mean i admit?
I am saying it's sad but i roll in 60 body armor and 27str.
Ninjas will obviously still complain that Archers are op.
Food archers are fine, they can headshot me before i reach them or they panic and die.
Not everyone can withstand my fearsome looks:
(click to show/hide)
Sounds fine to me.
If you want archers balanced for 30 str 8IF builds then i will go with you do not understand balancing.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Overdriven on January 25, 2012, 12:25:20 am
Any word on HA yet?
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on January 25, 2012, 12:27:09 am
wait what, when i posted this thread was intitle something completly different! something about having fun on crpg!

seriously joker we dont need another range thread! i think everyone knows that archery is not going to stay like this! you do post a lot of gibberish

oh yea, tested diffrent ranged alts to see. i ruled as an xbowman but sucked hard as an archer. imo xbow is superior to bows
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Meow on January 25, 2012, 12:27:55 am
They will be adjusted with the overall unnerf, they will not be buffed in any special way.

You already got the advantage of fleeing when ever you feel like it.
Use it.

archery is not going stay like this!

It's not.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Aseldo on January 25, 2012, 12:28:54 am
no i want it balanced so I dont blip people with 7PD

I'm just saying I'm forced to aim for head now, whats the point of trying to hit someone 8+ times, useless
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Overdriven on January 25, 2012, 12:29:28 am
They will be adjusted with the overall unnerf, they will not be buffed in any special way.

You already got the advantage of fleeing when ever you feel like it.
Use it.

It's not.

If you do shit all damage it's a pointless advantage. And I haven't heard a single person say it shouldn't be reverted.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on January 25, 2012, 12:30:29 am
They will be adjusted with the overall unnerf, they will not be buffed in any special way.

You already got the advantage of fleeing when ever you feel like it.
Use it.

It's not.

wait what, its going to stay like this?
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Meow on January 25, 2012, 12:36:16 am
No, it's not going to stay like this.

If you do shit all damage it's a pointless advantage. And I haven't heard a single person say it shouldn't be reverted.

Let me quote.

Archer here and voted no on reverting the nerf.

To conclude; yeah it's harder to get a high score, even harder to save myself when i'm being chased but this new system reward skill rather than luck so overall it's a good change, not a nerf.

If you are just talking HA - yeah that might be because HA always felt like a crappy class while annoying everyone else on the server :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Taser on January 25, 2012, 12:39:43 am
no i want it balanced so I dont blip people with 7PD

I'm just saying I'm forced to aim for head now, whats the point of trying to hit someone 8+ times, useless

This is true. The new patch has forced archers to do headshots since body shots do shit all. For me, its not as big of a deal since I went balanced and have a lot of wpf so my accuracy is decent. For the high str archers, this is a huge blow since their accuracy sucks. Their reticule will not be accurate which is another huge blow with the longbow/rus since it takes longer to draw an arrow and the reticule disappears faster over a smaller bow like the horn or tatar bow. By disappearing faster I mean the fact that they have less time to take advantage of the reticule's tightness at the end of a draw before it expands out.

Edit: Meow that only applies to my situation and not in general. I'm a specific kind of archer and I still believe it fucked everything up besides balanced and high agi archers. High str archers, xbows, throwers, and HA got screwed.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 25, 2012, 12:43:15 am
HA have always pretty much been anti-cavalry.  They are very good at this role.  When it comes time for needing to take out ground troops, or to melee when dismounted, they are like fish out of water.  Very specialized, niche class, but coming from someone who's always on a horse, they are crucial to keeping me away from their infantry (well before the nerf patch anyways).  I generally try to avoid HA's, so they can "keep me away" from certain areas of the map (to a certain extent, it obviously all depends on terrain and the map).

HA's working together with their own friendly cavalry lancers/1h's are good combo's for taking out enemy horses.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Aseldo on January 25, 2012, 12:46:50 am
Even with high agility archer builds, making a build that relies on hitting a small little head with the added problem of people doing unrealistic circles to dodge our shots is pretty sketchy.

Here's my problem with all of this, headshots before were basically a 1 shot kill 80% of the time except for people crutching it, does that sound like it needs a buff? Not really. So realistically we just got nerfed on body shots.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Overdriven on January 25, 2012, 12:48:13 am
If you are just talking HA - yeah that might be because HA always felt like a crappy class while annoying everyone else on the server :mrgreen:

Just talking HA. Then why has everyone who's mentioned it said the nerf was never even slightly needed for HA? HA was in a perfect place before. Now it's seriously UP. Even reverting the nerf slightly won't help that because we get the damage and accuracy nerfs on horseback. And as crazycracka said...we are handy for taking out horses. We need reasonable damage to do that.

HA have always pretty much been anti-cavalry.  They are very good at this role.  When it comes time for needing to take out ground troops, or to melee when dismounted, they are like fish out of water.  Very specialized, niche class, but coming from someone who's always on a horse, they are crucial to keeping me away from their infantry (well before the nerf patch anyways).  I generally try to avoid HA's, so they can "keep me away" from certain areas of the map (to a certain extent, it obviously all depends on terrain and the map).

HA's working together with their own friendly cavalry lancers/1h's are good combo's for taking out enemy horses.

It's a damn niche which very few people play. That's why it's so frustrating that when it's OP people bitch and moan for a long long time. But as soon as it gets nerfed into the ground, no one gives a crap and it hardly gets a mention. There has only been the odd post here and there which has brought it up. No real discussion. But when the big nerf for HA occcured, there was a huge thread demanding it that was as big as the post ranged nerf one we just had.

HA's working together is highly effective still. With me, hentzi, fru and elmer working together all 4 of us were in the very top portion of our team. But that's because we are used to setting each other up for shots and working together to kill people. But when it comes to an HA on their own, they are so UP it's painful, particularly against other cavalry, seeing as destriers are so prevalent now as they pretty much automatically mean immunity from ranged.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 25, 2012, 12:56:52 am
One of the things that I have disliked (I'm a thrower, I chuck shows. Really big shows.) is head shots insta killing when you have a high end full cover helmet. The point of those giant head bricks is to deflect crap. I know the engine would completely die if it had to add arrow deflection in based on the surface angle of the helmet but those helmets should get a soak bonus.

I got beaned at midish range by some one with tartar arrows 5PD and a horn bow. I had full health 5if 17 str and 54 armour Gotland helmet on. Its not the end of the world but it is a bit annoying. On the other hand my +1 war darts do more dmg as a melee weapon now, I'm not even joking.

I and another thrower were in a pissing contest we both gave up and started stabbing each other with the darts because it was MUCH faster.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Meow on January 25, 2012, 01:00:04 am
Never doubted that the damage nerf against horses needs to be reverted.
Cav is obviously the major prob due to the ranged nerf.

Also as i said before i do not do any balance, i tell you what i read and by now mostly what i think.

Spammy bows might get nerfed slightly, slow and accurate stuff might get a buff.
HA - no idea but i experienced two of them working together and against inf they can still rule a battlefield.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Overdriven on January 25, 2012, 01:02:13 am
HA - no idea but i experienced two of them working together and against inf they can still rule a battlefield.

2 of anything working properly together can rule the battlefield. Hence my above point about me, fru, hentzi and elmer working together. But 1 HA on it's own, as happens the majority of the time on a server, is severely UP compared to any other class. If spammy bows get a nerf as well that would only further affect HA. Basically the affects of the HA skill need to be increased to compensate.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: XyNox on January 25, 2012, 01:11:27 am
Well Im looking at this nerf/buff with mixed feelings. I started this game as archer right away, sticking with the rusbow in gen 1 with a 6PD 8WM build. It was balanced, didnt deal massive damage but was able to shoot very accurately at long distance. I then tried a max ath archer build in gen 2 with 2 PD just for the lulz of kiting kill hungry melees ( DontChaseMe ;D ) , but quickly respeced going max dmg with 10 PD and longbow. I was slow as hell, pulling my bow took ages and accuracy was a foreign term for me, but what I hit I hit hard.

The reason doing this is because I think there are way too many hornbow machinegunners and I usually dont wanna play in a way just everyone does, so I decided on claiming the longbow to be my weapon of choice. I tried really hard to get effective with that thing but being a lvl 31 archer not able to hit with consistency was just not acceptable. I went 8PD  6WM now in gen 3 and sadly have to acknowledge that still putting every point in archery, meaning no powerstrike, no melee wpf, and just a minimum of ath was still not enough to get this bow to work properly as it still lacks massive accuracy and attackspeed, even after the longbow buff that is.

Now the nerf kicked in I pretty much had no other choice than joining the hornbowfaction too, and I was angry because archers will be more uniformed than before now, forcing me to play with one piece of equipment only in order to be effective as the hornbow is superior an any way now compared with the larger bows. And If the damage adjustments stay this way or similar Im pretty sure ill go 5PD next build just so I can machinegun with my hornbow to get fast headshot, rendering planning your builds rather useless.

Although I want to point out that I still dont agree that a nerf is being applied ( and I am pretty sure it was intended as a nerf ) only because the majority of the most popular class whines a bit, at least that way it looks to me, I cant deny being able to oneshot people in the face even faster and more effectively now is very rewarding. Even after the nerf I still topscored once in a while and was able to get headshotsprees.

For me the problem is this:
I count myself to the rather good archers, if not even the highskilled ones. Of course I can use my skill more appropriatly now but it is INCREDIBLY tiring. Crpg is not a casual game of course but playing a game of "headshot or get shot", and being good a it for a whole map round requires levels of concentration not comparable with minute long melee duels. I literaly can lay back when an enemy gets close so I can do some relaxing melee fighting, eventually dying there but at least not being forced to calculate movement speed, vector changes, arrow drop and projectile flight time when shooting a 5x5 pixel target, computing all that data in 0.3 seconds at most. And when I say 0.3 seconds I MEAN 0.3 seconds, otherwise youll most likely not get a heashot on a dodging target, leading to a miss or a bodyshot effectivly doing ... nothing.

Basicly this means the skilled archers, so the majority of those people that pissed you off before will do even more so. The ones that are just average, working hard for every kill will even have a harder time making archery a privilege to most skilled of players. Also as mentioned before there are not many options to chose. If you want to be effective you take a hornbow or you dont play archer, not implying there are no people that can get good scores with other bows but these people would most likely do even better if they get used to hornbows.

So in conclusion I dont really know what to decide on this topic. If I would not know this community at all Id say what I think helps balance most, which is revert the nerf but keep the headshotdamage, all in all really buffing archery at least this time. This way archers would still have the opportunity to get some reward for their superior skill, which is killing an enemy way faster with less ammo and time consumption by headshotting them with a single arrow, effectivly having no effect on body shots as 4,5 consistent hits are still a lot less rewarding than a oneshot. And that way the less skilled archers would still have at least a CHANCE to kill people without hitting their heads. This is what I would suggest but I know since this is the crpg community this would summon a ragestorm of unimaginable dimensions.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Meow on January 25, 2012, 01:19:27 am
Thanks, i want replies like those.

And i will instantly agree that quick bows need a nerf and people who pick their shots need a buff.

Also pretty sure that's gonna happen.

Unrelated:
No idea about HAs though.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Aseldo on January 25, 2012, 01:27:33 am
Thanks, i want replies like those.

And i will instantly agree that quick bows need a nerf and people who pick their shots need a buff.

Also pretty sure that's gonna happen.

Unrelated:
No idea about HAs though.

off to sell my MW tatar bow I go...sigh

Seriously though why? because quick bows are better for headshots? Getting headshots is very difficult and I'm an experienced archer, I'd say less than 10% of my kills are headshots. How about you just buff stronger bows and leave quick bows alone :| unless you want more blipping. seriously ranged has been changed so much in the past year it makes me cry.

If you're going to nerf quick bows you need to buff overall range damage because even with a MW tatar bow I'm doing crap damage.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: XyNox on January 25, 2012, 01:33:57 am
Thanks, i want replies like those.

And i will instantly agree that quick bows need a nerf and people who pick their shots need a buff.

Also pretty sure that's gonna happen.

Unrelated:
No idea about HAs though.

Im pleased I can give constructive critism but I want to make sure you dont get me wrong on this:

I am IN NO WAY saying that archery should get nerfed right again, only because archers adapted to the nerf to some degree. Nerfing fast bows into oblivion (which would be needed to get the "job" done) just to create a reason to pick larger bows is the worst attempt to this matter I can imagine and is, IMO the very reason for the whole grievance right now at all. If Id be a dev I might decrease accuracy of fastbows slightly and buff accuracy of larger bows reasonably as they are not suitable for their intended role ( long range shooting I guess ) right now.

I still dont get how the faster smaller bows got more effective accuracy than large bows in the first place ...
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Meow on January 25, 2012, 01:36:58 am
As i said, wait for the next bow before you GTX your class.

Edit:
Just my opinion but nerf accuracy on faster bows to bring them in line, the long bow as top tier bow should still be the best bow for every archer.
Alternative - make the horn bow as expensive as the long bow.

Buff accuracy and accuracy window on the long bow and all other slow but accurate ranged weapons.

Obviously this would require a slight HA buff but in no way anywhere near what one guy suggested as in 20% per point.

Just my point of view - balancing will most likely go a different way.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Tears of Destiny on January 25, 2012, 01:40:42 am
As i said, wait for the next bow before you GTX your class.

I'm going to vainly hope that some consideration is going to be given to the post-30 players with longbow and rus-bow builds.

Though I dare say my Shielder Alt is amusing, less work and always at least a break-even KDR, feels nice.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Taser on January 25, 2012, 01:42:06 am
I always wonder why people never think to buff things rather than nerf them. Everything's always nerf this, nerf that..
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Aseldo on January 25, 2012, 01:42:49 am
I'm going to vainly hope that some consideration is going to be given to the post-30 players with longbow and rus-bow builds.

Though I dare say my Shielder Alt is amusing, less work and always at least a break-even KDR, feels nice.

Yes but at the expense of quick bows that by meows own confession already take 3 hits to take 1/3 of his HP.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Tears of Destiny on January 25, 2012, 01:44:56 am
Yes but at the expense of quick bows that by meows own confession already take 3 hits to take 1/3 of his HP.

He has 27 STR, so not even counting IF that is a minimum of 62HP. Not too bad, though it is a bit iffy.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Cris on January 25, 2012, 01:45:04 am
As i said, wait for the next bow before you GTX your class.

Edit:
Just my opinion but nerf accuracy on faster bows to bring them in line, the long bow as top tier bow should still be the best bow for every archer.
Alternative - make the horn bow as expensive as the long bow.

Buff accuracy and accuracy window on the long bow and all other slow but accurate ranged weapons.

Obviously this would require a slight HA buff but in no way anywhere near what one guy suggested as in 20% per point.

Just my point of view - balancing will most likely go a different way.

Always ask for more than what you are really wanting/hoping to get ^.^

Anyway :P would we be talking of a couple of points nerf in accuracy? Or something that makes a difference, like -3 or so? Assuming this would happen.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Aseldo on January 25, 2012, 01:48:30 am
He has 27 STR, so not even counting IF that is a minimum of 62HP. Not too bad, though it is a bit iffy.

So realistically I need to spend 10 of my arrows, HIT him with those 10 arrows(most important part) just to kill 1 player.
Today I hit someone I was talking to over ventrilo with an arrow, he was wearing blue tunic over mail, he just laughed how little damage it did.
I'm just saying, instead of feeling like an archer that can get kills I feel like that archer that is shooting merely to make the enemy stumble and leave an opening for infantry to slice him. This is what we get for all the 2handers qqing over the last 6 months saying they got 2 shot which wasn't true.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Adamar on January 25, 2012, 01:49:34 am
I too mourn my longbow. I shall wait then, if there's indeed hope.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Meow on January 25, 2012, 01:51:27 am
Yes but at the expense of quick bows that by meows own confession already take 3 hits to take 1/3 of his HP.

As i said, i think you misunderstand the concept of balance.
If i at 27str with 6IF and 60body armor get killed in 9 arrows you can most likely kill some ninjas with those 3 arrows.

What you do here is the same as those 2h guys posting some archer being on top of the scoreboard.

The moment you 3 shot me with body shots on your tarta bow i will have to seriously talk to the balancing team.

Just wait till the next patch, don't get our hopes up on HA buffs but i guess there will be an overall damage unnerf for body shots.
If you are using spammy bows - don't get your hopes up that you will do way more damage - if you are using the actual high tier bows - you might get lucky and get readjusted to be actually the dominant archer class.
For the other ranged stuff i guess it goes the same - spammy stuff will rather not be buffed, the rest might be.

Also i agree, it's time for buffs not for nerfs but with the changes at least the fast stuff will need to be adjusted in a nerfing way.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Aseldo on January 25, 2012, 01:56:47 am
As i said, i think you misunderstand the concept of balance.
If i at 27str with 6IF and 60body armor get killed in 9 arrows you can most likely kill some ninjas with those 3 arrows.

What you do here is the same as those 2h guys posting some archer being on top of the scoreboard.

The moment you 3 shot me with body shots on your tarta bow i will have to seriously talk to the balancing team.

Just wait till the next patch, don't get our hopes up on HA buffs but i guess there will be an overall damage unnerf for body shots.
If you are using spammy bows - don't get your hopes up that you will do way more damage - if you are using the actual high tier bows - you might get lucky and get readjusted to be actually the dominant archer class.
For the other ranged stuff i guess it goes the same - spammy stuff will rather not be buffed, the rest might be.

Also i agree, it's time for buffs not for nerfs but with the changes at least the fast stuff will need to be adjusted in a nerfing way.

Before the big patch usually this it how it went
Noob = 1 arrow
Light armor = 2 arrows
Medium armor = 3-4 arrows
Heavy Armor = 5-7 arrows
That seemed pretty fair to me at the time, now it feels more like this

Noob = 2 arrows
Light armor = 3-4 arrows
Medium armor = 5-6 arrows
Heavy armor = 8-10 arrows

Just seems a bit excessive to me.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Overdriven on January 25, 2012, 01:59:36 am
Add extra on to that for HA. 9 arrows to kill a guy in heraldic mail with tabard (40 body armour) with MW hornbow and barbs  :|

And 2 body shots with a longbow on my foot archer to kill a naked guy.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Thanatos on January 25, 2012, 02:10:36 am
Considering there is more of everything else than archers, the nerf getting reverted decision wins.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Meow on January 25, 2012, 02:10:50 am
Before the big patch usually this it how it went
Noob = 1 arrow
Light armor = 2 arrows
Medium armor = 3-4 arrows
Heavy Armor = 5-7 arrows
That seemed pretty fair to me at the time, now it feels more like this

Noob = 2 arrows
Light armor = 3-4 arrows
Medium armor = 5-6 arrows
Heavy armor = 8-10 arrows

Just seems a bit excessive to me.

That is mainly a overall problem, not just archery.
I sometimes take 4-5 swings from a below 8 PS 2h build and those guys have to be in my swing range to deal that damage.

I see how it might seem excessive to hit people more than 5 times but you can do that at range.
You have to keep gameplay in mind.

As i said right now rus bow needs a slight buff, longbow needs a big buff.
Both top tier bows.
Lower tier bows either need a speed, accuracy or damage nerf.

Slow xbows need a buff, throwing needs a buff.

Everything else will be adjusted as needed.
Not spoiling that :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Thanatos on January 25, 2012, 02:15:16 am
Xbows need more damage than speed. I'd rather that the xbows become stronger.

Historically xbows weren't that fast at reloading as you had to wind some of them up.

Also the STR levels to use xbows should be lowered. The regular xbow should be level 7 str to use and only take up one slot and the light xbow should be 5 str.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Overdriven on January 25, 2012, 02:15:55 am
As i said right now rus bow needs a slight buff

Wait Rus bow needs a buff? I swear that's the most used bow...at least amoung the good archers I've specced recently.

Longbow does need some love. But I see no reason to nerf the other bows.

Also...see these votes:

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,24339.15.html
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: SirProto on January 25, 2012, 02:19:01 am
I just want my poor wardarts back to how they were.  :(  Throwing is far too innacurate to consistenly get headshots and with the limited ammo you get using up 5-6 shots for one kill takes most of your firepower out of the battle with only a small effect.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Tristan on January 25, 2012, 02:37:21 am
Add extra on to that for HA. 9 arrows to kill a guy in heraldic mail with tabard (40 body armour) with MW hornbow and barbs  :|

And 2 body shots with a longbow on my foot archer to kill a naked guy.

You sire have too many archers :D

@balancing:
Causality is a very funny thing. I too have specced more successful archers with rus bow, but I strongly suspect that it is their ability more than the bow that is the reason for this. Long bow no doubt need some love, while the 1 slot bows simply carry too many advantages.

Somehow I am not all that fond of the headshot balance. I get the point where you want to increase skill. It seems actually to reward some skilled player, but it also increases a sense of randomness. Archers have become a Hell Blaster Volley Gun, where the biggest chance is they do nada, but chance is they win the game. Sorta like rolling a die, on a 6 you win, every thing else, you lose.

I don't know how, but it would be wonderful to introduce more skill into archery and less randomness. Accuracy is again a randomness factor.
Where is the Archery minigame? Sort-a-like a certain tapping of codes in order to get optimal accuracy or something similar :D
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Taser on January 25, 2012, 03:07:48 am
SirProto, your gif is making me laugh. I love it.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Meow on January 25, 2012, 03:46:52 am
SirProto, your gif is making me laugh. I love it.
This!
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Tanken on January 25, 2012, 04:25:55 am
Having been archer for the last 8 generations or so, using either MW Horn bow or MW Rus Bow with MW Bodkins, I can tell you straight forward, this FUCKED archers.

I played through the newest patch, and my arrows were practically tickling opponents that otherwise used to run away from me. Throw in the idea that the bows are fairly inaccurate at longer than 25m and that they now do less damage? Holy christ almighty, I sold my MW Archery Gear because I know this shit will never get fixed, something else will get nerfed and then it will be that the complaint is on it instead of archery and archery will be swept under the rug.

While we're at it, why don't they just release NERF-tipped arrows, that's practically the effect that they have now. 8 MW Bodkins all in prime locations such as torso or neck and I'm still being charged at? Not to mention if they have a shield I now have to deal with the shield + the 8 or so body shots? Wtf is this sorcery.

Tanken

P.S. thanks for fucking up archery. You took away ladders, that's fine, I would probably bitch less if the dramatic decrease to body shots wasn't so severe. 10% less to body shots and 20% increase to head shots seems more accurate to what SHOULD have happened. But what do I know right? Obviously you guys have it all figured out.

Yeah I said it, You Fucked Archery.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Meow on January 25, 2012, 04:34:01 am
The pic is not working =(

Also agreed but those % will be adjusted.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: LastKaze on January 25, 2012, 05:04:14 am
Isn't that bad using an arbalest, it's just xbowman has been nerfed to a point where it is just a support class, so 1 shot could maybe take off half and your teammates will finish him off, you'd be pretty lucky to get a second shot at the guy because the reload speed is sorta slow.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Aseldo on January 25, 2012, 05:13:24 am
Lower tier bows either need a speed, accuracy or damage nerf.

Seeing as they barely damage anybody right now anyway, they'll be even more useless if this is implemented

Accuracy would be the only understandable nerf.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Old Autobus on January 25, 2012, 06:16:43 am
No 73 (57%)

learn to aim.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: bonekuukkeli on January 25, 2012, 08:24:10 am
Petition is made with only yes and no options. (most likely intentionally to get wanted situation). Most of people here have told that they don't want full revert (ladders and everything back), but they want to increase damage or make it less random headshotting idiocy. Also, they want to buff xbow and throwing.... but still answered "yes" because they like ladder change for example.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Fartface on January 25, 2012, 08:27:54 am
All the bad, medium archers are like pff fuck this nerf.
But the better archers are like nice my hs insta kill now.
This is what i hear most of the time.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: B3RS3RK on January 25, 2012, 08:46:09 am
The Way the game is right now, I enjoy it a LOT, more than ever since the upkeep patch.

I think currently the game is in a pretty balanced state(Maybe a bit too much cav, but thats not so bad since they are melee and can be easily countered), so please leave it as it is.

The Game will grow even nicer when the my old friendchers that just became my old friendchers for E-Z mode retire to melee.Only dedicated Archers will survive that and BAM!We have a nice Archer/Melee Ratio.

This will be so awesome.

So please,please dont revert the ranged nerf, it makes the game horrendous amounts of fun again.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: akapraf on January 25, 2012, 09:18:11 am
The Way the game is right now, I enjoy it a LOT, more than ever since the upkeep patch.

I think currently the game is in a pretty balanced state(Maybe a bit too much cav, but thats not so bad since they are melee and can be easily countered), so please leave it as it is.

The Game will grow even nicer when the friendly archers that just became friendly archers for E-Z mode retire to melee.Only dedicated Archers will survive that and BAM!We have a nice Archer/Melee Ratio.

This will be so awesome.

So please,please dont revert the ranged nerf, it makes the game horrendous amounts of fun again.
I don't enyoit.
I start playing crpg 1h shilder + thrower, next gen i was 2h, another gen i was full thrower, next i was a full 1h shilder ( very easy mode with 150 + wp to a wepon ) , now i'm a thrower + 1h ( it's fucked because i have low wp to wepons so i'm obliged to give up throwing because i can't compete with a 2h 160 WP spammer ), next gen i was thinking to try archery , I enjoyed this mod beacause i have the chance to play melee or range wenever i want, now it's only about melee, cav and dedicated archery.

Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Aseldo on January 25, 2012, 09:35:09 am
No 73 (57%)

learn to aim.

I can gurantee you a lot of those no votes are people that just downright hate range for "ruining their fun" they could care less about balance.

All the bad, medium archers are like pff fuck this nerf.
But the better archers are like nice my hs insta kill now.
This is what i hear most of the time.

Of course it's nice, but when I have an infantry chasing me down I'd like to have the luxury of knowing I can just shoot him at least 3 to 4 times(instead of maybe 6-8 shots after the patch) and kill him rather than trying to get a difficult shot on his head while they spin around with glee dodging my shots. I saw some stats about the percentage of kills in CRPG from weapons, I believe headshots accounted for only 2%. Any archer that says headshots are easy is full of crap.

Just FYI before patch I consistently got 2-1KD as dedicated archer, now I often get 1-1KD
Title: Re: Petition to revert the patch
Post by: _Tak_ on January 25, 2012, 09:40:48 am

Making other lances than the heavy lance useful for cav.
 to changes but might or might not happen.

Nice because I always uses Master work light lance and i think its the best weapon :D, also no because if the arhcery get revert back before the patch then archers will become overpowered
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Joker86 on January 25, 2012, 09:54:12 am
Also agreed but those % will be adjusted.

That's something I can live with, unless it's only a few percentage points of change.

But what bothers me now is, that I will have to wait weeks for the next patch to get things right, have I? Every day without patch means more ranged players lost and more cav racking up kills like mad.  :?
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: tankmen on January 25, 2012, 10:25:31 am
That's something I can live with, unless it's only a few percentage points of change.

But what bothers me now is, that I will have to wait weeks for the next patch to get things right, have I? Every day without patch means more ranged players lost and more cav racking up kills like mad.  :?
cause those kills give you $ right? o wait they dont... whos cares if the cav on both team get kills only one side wins to get $, and rarely with the last 5 people is a guy mounted at that point his horse has been shot or stabbed to death. i just played and was happy to see my palfrey take 2-3+ arrows before dying, and i find that perfectly fair because he didn't miss a shot... i pay 900+ gold to get dismounted and walk? not to mention the angle nerf means a smart archer can avoid my lance or simple shoot me before i thrust, every one cries when there class is nerfed, but as long as i see a class doing fine after a nerf, i dont care too much about the cry babies. Then again could just be my dark memories of plate wearing, dead on accurate, 1-2 shot killing archers with 2h swords due to no slot nerf, and 35 wpf  swinging just as fast as me because no armor nerf.... fuck archers.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the patch
Post by: dodnet on January 25, 2012, 11:33:30 am
Making other lances than the heavy lance useful for cav.

+1, Im a Light Lance user and its really hard with it if you go for enemy cav. Its kinda sad that the heavy lance is the only lance used on horse.

To the archer nerf: I think removing the ladders was a good idea, but the headshot change is really stupid. Any archer kills me wearing a Great Helmet with one shot. That makes helmets almost useless.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Adamar on January 25, 2012, 12:33:22 pm
Voted no because ranged did not get nerfed. Bodyshots take less damage, headshots are increased but so is the missle speed! Archers now have more chance of hitting moving targerts.

So, in short, archery was not nerfed, but rebalanced.

Only for people with high accuracy builds, and even they had to relie on body damage since crpg already asked a lot when it comes to precision.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: akapraf on January 25, 2012, 12:34:37 pm
we will see when all archers will learn to hit the head  (+  a bonus to 9 ath ) because you dont need PD to much anymore, how you will complain about to many hs...
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Teeth on January 25, 2012, 12:44:16 pm
I wasn't really enjoying being shot for 70% of my hp by strongbow bodyshots in 60 body armor. Archery needed a damage nerf.

Too bad I accidentally voted yes because I am a moron, y u no add remove vote?
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Leshma on January 25, 2012, 12:47:29 pm
I was thinking to vote yes but after playing against some archers I voted no. There are archers who are still doing really good and thanks to "autoaim" (easier headshots) they are deadlier than ever. But majority is fucked up, they simply don't have a clue what they are doing on the battlefield.

It should be taken into consideration that I have 59 HP and 47 BA, people with 70-75 HP and 60-tish body armor probably don't have any problems with archers. But that's entirely different matter, it's the old "STR builds are OP" thing.

Edit: I think that ranged damage should stay the same but archers need their melee capabilities as compensation for range nerf. Redistribute ranged wpf so a guy with 8 WM can have ~160 wpp in archery and ~100 wpp in melee, make shorter 2H swords 1-slot (bastard sword, heavy bastard sword, longsword) and give free respec so they can make new, effective builds.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Prpavi on January 25, 2012, 01:03:38 pm
No.

Didnt have this much fun in a long time, proper archers top the boards easily, spamming nabs crying, archery finnaly requires allot of skill and the rewards are there for skillfull people.

Great job!
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: dodnet on January 25, 2012, 01:29:16 pm
Redistribute ranged wpf so a guy with 8 WM can have ~160 wpp in archery and ~100 wpp in melee, make shorter 2H swords 1-slot (bastard sword, heavy bastard sword, longsword) and give free respec so they can make new, effective builds.

Are you serious? That would make them better than some normal inf builds but with the ability to use a bow.  :shock:
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: SirProto on January 25, 2012, 02:00:28 pm
SirProto, your gif is making me laugh. I love it.

Sssssssssmashing!
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Cup1d on January 25, 2012, 02:09:19 pm
I was an archer or archer hybrid for 30+ generations, so I know something about it.

I remember how it was in 2010. I remember all repeated nerfs in 2011 and last one.
I remember even how chadz announce that Power Draw will not ruin our wpf anymore.

To be honest, most obnoxious nerfs was «arrow projectile speed and slot system nerf». This nerf ruins accuracy at medium-long shots, and make kiter-archer (15\27, 18\27 no ps, only PD\WM and athletics) one of the best builds for archery. Why do you need PS if you do not have suitable weapons? And if you choose hybrid archer path - you'll be limited with one quiver and one slot bow (or two slot bow, if you prefer 1H weapon).

After this «ranged damage nerf\buff» I still make many non-lethal headshots with my MW Hornbow and MW tatars arrows. If you have at least 18 str, some IF and helm with 45+ armor there are 70% probability that you'll survive headshot, if you have 27 str, enough IF and loomed helmet - you can easily survive two point blank headshots.

Still, I think that projectile speed unnerf + more 1slot weapons + top-tier bows accuracy buff (or just removing this silly PD penalty)  can please me more than just old body damage system.

And this please:
Since this change is a fairly big nerf to ranged classes, we decided to tweak several mechanics in order to make ranged more viable.
You can find a preview of the upcoming changes here (http://youtu.be/IG31e2UKOK0).

Disarming is a great idea.



Are you serious? That would make them better than some normal inf builds but with the ability to use a bow.  :shock:

Dude, even with 36\3 character without any point in WM you'll have 111 wpf.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Zerobot1 on January 25, 2012, 03:50:13 pm
I would settle for bloody rain effects displaying correctly.

Only thing worse than rain is not even knowing that it's raining.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Tennenoth on January 25, 2012, 03:53:10 pm
I would settle for bloody rain effects displaying correctly.

Only thing worse than rain is not even knowing that it's raining.

Would a little indicator be enough? Like a small image appearing on the HUD?

I'm sure that's possible.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Gristle on January 25, 2012, 03:53:35 pm
Poll: "Should the nerf be reverted?"
First line of the thread: "Are you happy with the game right now?"

Which am I supposed to answer? What was the poll before it was changed? My answer for the first (yes) is the complete opposite of my answer for the second (no). I answered based on the poll, but if even one person got it mixed up, the poll is skewed.

I was approaching an archer the other day. I would slightly bob and weave just to make hitting my head difficult. He hit me around 7 times in the body, and needed at least 4 more body shots to kill me. He was killed by other melee before he could get those shots off. I was wearing 68 body armor (a lot) at the time, with 50 hit points (not a lot). He told me later that he had PD 6 and was using Bodkins (think he had a Tatar bow, but I forget).

Wearing the same armor while fighting in melee, I mostly get killed in 4 to 6 hits (sometimes less). This, to me, seems unbalanced.

People keep saying they like this change because only good archers should be able to get kills. Why can't the same be said for melee? I'm not the best fighter, but I get more melee kills than crossbow kills, even before this nerf. Getting melee kills is easier. For every Balbaroth there are 10 players that can barely block.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Zerobot1 on January 25, 2012, 04:14:39 pm
Would a little indicator be enough? Like a small image appearing on the HUD?

I'm sure that's possible.

Yep that would be awesome.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Dezilagel on January 25, 2012, 04:17:03 pm
For every Balbaroth there are 10 players that can barely block.

You play on the NA servers
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Rebelyell on January 25, 2012, 04:23:05 pm
when you nerf archers you buff cav....

r
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Gristle on January 25, 2012, 04:23:22 pm
You play on the NA servers

Are you telling me I won't get 1 melee kill if i join EU? With 120-130 ping, I will still get kills (I will also die at lot, because I'm very skilled at dying pointlessly).

(click to show/hide)

Regardless of server, I am playing the same mod you are. This is not the time for a debate on the skills between NA and EU players.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: BaleOhay on January 25, 2012, 04:46:31 pm
gristle is the voice of reason. shut up and listen to him :)
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Brutal on January 25, 2012, 05:12:54 pm
Getting melee kills is easier.

Omg such blasphemy cannot be tolerated, burn the heretic !!!
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Nehvar on January 25, 2012, 05:15:25 pm
You play on the NA servers

I was doing better than 1:1 on EU servers at lv20 with 160 ping and ~15% packet loss; and I'm not even that good.  I'm not saying you're bad, but I am saying that you have overinflated your sense of ability.

Can we not have the EU-NA/NA-EU mudslinging in every thread?
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: San on January 25, 2012, 06:02:06 pm
I'm for a slight increase in body shot damage and an accuracy balance for bows.

Headshots are still very dangerous against good archers. Some of them like Saifa Qc was getting many headshots a map (almost 1shot my 24 STR, 7IF ~50 head armor character). But you can't expect anyone other than really good archers to get headshots so consistently. Mid-level archers should still be able to feel that steady rate of improvement.

I disagree with the arrows should 2-4 shot everyone, because it takes many hits for a 1h to kill one foe, too, at a medium PS.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: MadJackMcMad on January 25, 2012, 07:17:23 pm
4 point blank shots to kill Phyrex with a masterwork arbalest.  I can't even imagine how many a light crossbow would require.  Crossbows have lost their balls.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: LastKaze on January 25, 2012, 07:23:24 pm
4 point blank shots to kill Phyrex with a masterwork arbalest.  I can't even imagine how many a light crossbow would require.  Crossbows have lost their balls.
I knew i felt something missing.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Grumbs on January 25, 2012, 07:25:41 pm
Would a little indicator be enough? Like a small image appearing on the HUD?

I'm sure that's possible.

Put it on the score board rather than the HUD. Either way it would be nice to have, just not on screen all the time imo
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: buba on January 26, 2012, 02:14:24 am
disarming enemys with bows doesnt help the trower,xbow and HA at all...
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Taser on January 26, 2012, 06:15:08 am
Sssssssssmashing!

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


I'm for a slight increase in body shot damage and an accuracy balance for bows.

I agree with this as well. Body shots definitely should do more damage than they are. A peasant in a shirt should not survive to take 3 arrows before dying.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: PieParadox on January 26, 2012, 06:36:34 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login



Quite possible one of the best gifs I ever seen!

Anyways, archers should have been nerfed, but not nerfed this hard... I do like the idea of headshots doing more damage though, perhaps increase body damage just a little more?

Edit: everyone already said this damn, and i had just quoted you taser hahaha
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Taser on January 26, 2012, 06:52:34 am
Lol all good Pie. Seems to me most people agree with the body shots should do more damage part whether they liked the nerf or not. And yes that gif is awesome.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Thomek on January 26, 2012, 08:42:43 am
1. Archery needs a tiny buff.
2. Xbaws needs a tiny buff.
3. Throwing needs a medium buff.
4. HA needs a proper buff.
5. Something has to be done about cav.

Just my feelings..
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: bonekuukkeli on January 26, 2012, 09:17:36 am
HA needs huge buff, because if you nerf cav at same time it affects most likely HA as well :P
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on January 26, 2012, 09:45:59 am
1. Archery needs a tiny buff.
2. Xbaws needs a tiny buff.
3. Throwing needs a medium buff.
4. HA needs a proper buff.
5. Something has to be done about cav.

Just my feelings..

I think throwing needs a high dmg buff. Shouldn't be very accurate over more than 10 meters or something, but it should do high dmg. When such a big axe is thrown and hits me I don't want to walk anymore I suppose^^
Rest sounds pretty fine in my opinion.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Cup1d on January 26, 2012, 09:46:22 am
On the other hand I've played strategus battle yesterday, and this experience was dissapointing. Rain, nonloomed tatar bows, nonloomed arrows, enemy in lordly armor = 7-10 bodyshots to kill someone in white tunic over mail.

Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Ujin on January 26, 2012, 09:47:36 am
On the other hand I've played strategus battle yesterday, and this experience was dissapointing. Rain, nonloomed tatar bows, nonloomed arrows, enemy in lordly armor = 7-10 bodyshots to kill someone in white tunic over mail.
Strat without ranged spam? Sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on January 26, 2012, 09:57:18 am
The ranged spam is still there Ujin, people are just not doing much damage. But the stun is still there^^
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: MadJackMcMad on January 26, 2012, 08:28:31 pm
Strat without ranged spam? Sounds good to me.

Quote from: Charles d'Albret
Agincourt without ranged spam? Sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Nebun on January 27, 2012, 02:50:16 am
I'd say nerf archers more, break their bows so they throw arrows at ppl instead :) maybe then when archer stop exist as a class :) fat lazy infantry will be able to stand still on the server without being shoot at and they will finally get happy :)

as for me in CRPG i play 95% of my time with my inf alt
on strat i play with archer, because i can't play with my inf alt

i don't enjoy playing archer anymore and its the class i loved since the start of crpg :)

and when i play as inf on servers i feel sorry for those poor archers that pad my KD :) and they sooo good at it, almost harmless.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Harpag on January 27, 2012, 03:30:30 am
Strat without ranged spam? Sounds good to me.

It's funny. What are you talking about? Everyone knows that you are not playing Stategus  :lol:

BTW - Who wants to buy a completely useless masterwork crossbow? Completely useless masterwork bolts included  :rolleyes:  Honestly inform you that only with some luck you can using this professional equipment deadly shoot the dead man or corpse his horse  :wink:
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Adalwulf on January 27, 2012, 06:10:15 am
From what I gather only glasses that are suffering from range nerf are xbow, throwing and STR based archers. I mean PD is useless now...getting more then 5-6 for your bow is utterly retarded when you lose accuracy. IMO you need to removed the accuracy penalty per PD...it's not enough we all wear the shittiest of cloth armor and get killed instantly by 2handers and cav. I loomed a longbow hoping for a future buff and all i get is a few points in the bows accuracy....didn't do shit honestly...Best bow in medieval history utterly useless makes no sense.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Adalwulf on January 27, 2012, 06:13:58 am
sorry about double post drunk :S
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Lordark on January 27, 2012, 07:05:45 am
Can we nerf melee swing spead and buff melee weapon push back after block so we can keep this game family friendly?  :lol:

Seriusly make a new crpg like game where u can put in physics that really adjust instead of being forced to change across the board because of old game code.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: polkafranzi on January 27, 2012, 08:24:44 am
After this «ranged damage nerf\buff» I still make many non-lethal headshots with my MW Hornbow and MW tatars arrows. If you have at least 18 str, some IF and helm with 45+ armor there are 70% probability that you'll survive headshot, if you have 27 str, enough IF and loomed helmet - you can easily survive two point blank headshots.

3 IF and +3 Winged Great Helm with 60 armor rating here - haven't survived a headshot since patch, no matter the bow, the arrow or whoever the my old friend who shoots is....so, yeah.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Fartface on January 27, 2012, 09:46:34 am
3 IF and +3 Winged Great Helm with 60 armor rating here - haven't survived a headshot since patch, no matter the bow, the arrow or whoever the my old friend who shoots is....so, yeah.
I usualy survive 1hs with niloskoe helmet, im 15 str 5 if.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: XyNox on January 27, 2012, 11:14:00 am
From what I gather only glasses that are suffering from range nerf are xbow, throwing and STR based archers. I mean PD is useless now...getting more then 5-6 for your bow is utterly retarded when you lose accuracy. IMO you need to removed the accuracy penalty per PD...it's not enough we all wear the shittiest of cloth armor and get killed instantly by 2handers and cav. I loomed a longbow hoping for a future buff and all i get is a few points in the bows accuracy....didn't do shit honestly...Best bow in medieval history utterly useless makes no sense.

sorry about double post drunk :S

Even though you were drunk your post makes more sense than the majority of all melee posts here ... buff melee brains please.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: polkafranzi on January 27, 2012, 01:40:42 pm
I usualy survive 1hs with niloskoe helmet, im 15 str 5 if.

Nice troll
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Black Wind on January 27, 2012, 01:51:10 pm
I'm cavalry, but I don't like the lack of ranged balance. I want more archers/xbowmen to play, as it's stupid currently.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Cup1d on January 27, 2012, 03:08:18 pm
3 IF and +3 Winged Great Helm with 60 armor rating here - haven't survived a headshot since patch, no matter the bow, the arrow or whoever the my old friend who shoots is....so, yeah.

Really?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/bowdamagew.jpg/)

This tool show ranged damage at point blank shot.
As you see average damage versus 60 armor is 18 points.

With new headshot multiplier: 18*2.625=47,25

And this is MW hornbow and MW Tatar arrows + 6PD + 163 wpf in archery.


Wanna see how much damage can make to you noob archer with 5PD, 140 wpf in archery, nonloomed tatar bow and non loomed tatar arrows?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/noobowdamage.jpg/)

Do not forget, that this is raw damage without new Body-Hands modifier.

So, if it was body hit, you'll receive:
Minimum - 1,34 damage
Average - 6,7 damage
Maximum - 12,73 damage

And even less if it was your hand:
Minimum - 1,07 damage
Average - 5,36 damage
Maximum - 10,18 damage

Ok. Noob archer catch you at spawn and make point blank headshot.
Minimum - 5,25 damage
Average - 27,56 damage
Maximum - 49,87 damage

As you see, you need at least TWO POINT BLANK headshots from average archer. But if archer is extreme unlucky it will take 5-12 headshots to kill you.

So, please, stop weeping crocodile tears about 100% lethal headshots.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: polkafranzi on January 27, 2012, 03:14:16 pm
(click to show/hide)

Don't have hurt feelings my little archer friend, I was merely telling you my experience, haven't survived a headshot yet.

5-12 headshots, trololo
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: _Tak_ on January 27, 2012, 03:14:43 pm
Don't have hurt feelings my little archer friend, I was merely telling you my experience, haven't survived a headshot yet.

5-12 headshots, trololo

The calculator is wrong and is outdated obviously
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Senni__Ti on January 27, 2012, 03:17:47 pm
This patch actually made me enjoy playing on my archer alt :o
 
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: polkafranzi on January 27, 2012, 03:18:19 pm
The calculator is wrong and is outdated obviously

Yeh you can't argue with hard facts, Merc Arrowblood headshotted me from full health 2 times just now on eu2.  Maybe he has over 9000 PD?
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Cup1d on January 27, 2012, 03:20:31 pm
Don't have hurt feelings my little archer friend, I was merely telling you my experience, haven't survived a headshot yet.

5-12 headshots, trololo

And I'm from time to time surviving headshots from low tier bows\arrows with 8 head armor and 55 health. So what?


The calculator is wrong and is outdated obviously

Yes, calculator do not show body-shot penalty (0.67) and hand-shot penalty (0.53)
Title: Re: Petition to revert the patch
Post by: Rhombeus on January 27, 2012, 06:31:58 pm
At first i thought archers got overnerfed. Now i think they are actually at a pretty good spot.

Xbows and Throwing need a buff atm. I wouldn't touch archery ,personally ( flame on).

You must be trolling you used a bow lately :)
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Knitler on January 27, 2012, 06:34:07 pm
What you think about the awlpike? Why its always got nerfed?

And don´t say. uhm its too fast. Uhm i cant block in 2 directions ...
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: MrShine on January 27, 2012, 06:43:19 pm
3 IF and +3 Winged Great Helm with 60 armor rating here - haven't survived a headshot since patch, no matter the bow, the arrow or whoever the my old friend who shoots is....so, yeah.

That's funny because I currently have 41 head armor and only 18 str/0 IF, and yesterday I took several different headshots that took about 80% of my hp. I don't know all the stats on the shooters.

Then I was screwing around in rageball with full heavy armor.  With 60 head armor a guy did roughly 35-40% to me per headshot.  Yes health regens but I was watching the rough amount of my life bar that went down.  The guy said he had 15 strength, which I assume means 5 PD.  I should mention in my 65 body armor at the time he literally could never have killed me with arrows unless he got headshots... I would barely take damage and would easily regen it in time before another hit.

So I don't know how much you've been playing... but headshots are certainly not a guaranteed 1-hit kill by any stretch.






I should also mention that the mere fact this poll is ALMOST a 50/50 split is proof alone that the ranged nerf needs to be cut back quite a bit. 
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Dezilagel on January 27, 2012, 08:01:33 pm
I've survived one headshot so far and that was from a long-range (50 m +) by a HA :p

Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: BlueKnight on January 27, 2012, 08:04:07 pm
Okay so the dmg received from archer is also based on your moving speed, isn't it? If it is, then you can increase the dmg, by walking in the direction of an archer. I find it simple.

BTW. sb correct me if the speed bonus isn't calculated.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: polkafranzi on January 27, 2012, 08:12:06 pm
So I don't know how much you've been playing... but headshots are certainly not a guaranteed 1-hit kill by any stretch.

I've played a lot.

And also, I took 3 +1 Heavy throwing axes to the head in a test with my friend Fin and survived.  But arrows, no way.  So, I dunno how this ranged nerf works but like I said in my experience been headshooted by archers everytime so far.  I guess we are all getting different experiences, whatever.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Dach on January 27, 2012, 08:23:08 pm
Yep nerf archery!!!

http://video.ca.msn.com/watch/video/super-fast-archery-shooter/1gl9xvgda (http://video.ca.msn.com/watch/video/super-fast-archery-shooter/1gl9xvgda)

 :lol:
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Elmetiacos on January 28, 2012, 04:58:46 pm
If the reduced damage nerf is retained, then how about reversing the last accuracy nerf...?
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Fandrall on January 28, 2012, 09:08:36 pm
I did some testing with Chagan shooting him in the head at close range stationary. I needed three hits to the head in avarage to take him down. I believe he had an Elite Cavalry Chichak (47) at the time. I was mounted and used MW Horn bow + MW Tatar arrows . I have PD 5, HA 4, WPF 172.

I would rather have better accuracy then damage though. Its never fun to get oneshoted and carry a heavy helmet should pay off.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Kafein on January 28, 2012, 10:31:41 pm
Good archers now often outperfom a full squad of prepatch bad archers -> that's fine

But the overnerf of throwing and xbows seems to have created an influx in archery. We end up with nearly as many archers as we had before, while the goal of the patch was precisely reducing the amount of archers.


I say, increase bow upkeep, completely revert the nerf for throwing and buff xbows (but not back to prepatch sniper oneshots)
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Tears of Destiny on January 28, 2012, 11:37:04 pm
I say, increase bow upkeep

Eh, what? Bows cost more then ever before, and arrow upkeep is nothing to sneeze at now.

What would increasing bow upkeep do? Encourage people to use the Horn Bow even more?
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Arkonor on January 29, 2012, 12:07:21 am
One part that makes ranged hard to balance and many do miss is that ranged strength does go up exponentially with numbers.

What this means is if you balance out 1 archer vs 1 melee the archers will always get better in bigger battles.

The reason for this is because melees do need bigger space to work effectively on then ranged. Also in bigger numbers like 50 archers vs 50 footman the missed arrows would actually start hitting way more just like in real life scenario.

For any RTS game veteran this is easily observed in most RTS games.

Examples are archers in Warcraft 3 or marines in Starcraft. Both get exponentially better vs melee types of units. And this happens amazingly fast with numbers.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Adalwulf on January 29, 2012, 03:06:57 am
increase upkeep for bows? stop suggesting things if you don't use a bow at all. longbow is about 777 gold, rus a bit lower and horn is 552 gold. tartars cost 202 gold and bodkins 354 gold, might I add arrows constantly break. So if bow breaks plus your paying for 2 arrows slots you can do the math...Oh yeah I use 3 arrow slots for arrows 3 bodkins repairs probably costs more then your weapon not addind if the bow is damaged.

Solution is so simple. IMHO keep the damage, revert the PD accuracy penalty which in turn will make rus and longbow actually useable. I'm not saying revert it completly but I mean come on already. Longbow should be accurate and should be fast to reload....It is in real life so why does it suck so much.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the patch
Post by: Juhanius on January 29, 2012, 05:12:23 pm
At first i thought archers got overnerfed. Now i think they are actually at a pretty good spot.

Xbows and Throwing need a buff atm. I wouldn't touch archery ,personally ( flame on).

You are clearly out of you bonkers :shock:
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: polkafranzi on January 29, 2012, 05:46:14 pm
longbow is about 777 gold, rus a bit lower and horn is 552 gold. tartars cost 202 gold and bodkins 354 gold

Plated charger 4.5k, breaks constantly.  :mad:
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Lordark on February 01, 2012, 03:57:01 pm
Plated charger 4.5k, breaks constantly.  :mad:

I kinda lost some respect for your arguement. If your plated charger breaks constantly you need to buy a better horse. (or u got really bad luck)
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Rumblood on February 01, 2012, 10:29:16 pm
while the goal of the patch was precisely reducing the amount of archers.

No, it was to reduce ranged, which it has done. Pre-patch? 4 people on a roof. 2 were Xbow, 1 was an Archer, and the 4th was a random other player.

You don't like archery. We get it. You have no clue about its mechanics given your "increase upkeep on bows" comment though. Maybe you ought to learn the class before making suggestions. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Tennenoth on February 01, 2012, 10:32:26 pm
I've survived one headshot so far and that was from a long-range (50 m +) by a HA :p

I've survived 2. Head armour: 4.

1 was an enemy horn bowman across a decently long range and the other was Suspektum, on my team, with a hornbow, pointblank.

Edit: Just like to point out that it was my fault that Suspektum hit me, I ducked out of the way of an enemy bowman right into his line of fire.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Gurnisson on February 01, 2012, 10:51:47 pm
and the other was Suspektum, on my team, with a hornbow, pointblank.

You only receive 50 % damage from teamhits on official servers iirc.

Longbow should be accurate and should be fast to reload....It is in real life so why does it suck so much.

What should be its downside then? Damage? Massive weight so the archer moves like a snail, but hits like a truck?


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Tennenoth on February 01, 2012, 11:01:37 pm
You only receive 50 % damage from teamhits on official servers iirc.

Yes, I know, but it was practically a best case scenario for an ally headshot, but if it was an enemy, you'd need a lot more head armour to survive, to double the damage having come out with 1 hp, i'd need to have 53 health's worth of head armour to get away without getting killed.
Title: Re: Petition to revert the ranged nerf
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 01, 2012, 11:48:10 pm
nvm