cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sauce on January 12, 2012, 01:01:46 am

Title: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Sauce on January 12, 2012, 01:01:46 am

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Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Joker86 on January 12, 2012, 01:05:33 am
It is okay to have a different opinion, but you should at least try to bring arguments...  :?
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Sauce on January 12, 2012, 01:06:15 am
Hey Sauce_of_Ghayos, if you don't like it just stfu and play another game okay?
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Sauce on January 12, 2012, 01:14:45 am
Hey Sauce_of_Ghayos, if you don't like it just stfu and play another game okay?

Typical response, but I can't be the only one playing that feels like the combat has lost a lot of it's fluid mechanics.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Joker86 on January 12, 2012, 01:24:11 am
What IS this here?  :?
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Lizard_man on January 12, 2012, 01:29:47 am
I'm confused... :|
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: LastKaze on January 12, 2012, 01:32:01 am
right swing is so damn slow -.-
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: HUtH on January 12, 2012, 01:32:39 am
Typical response, but I can't be the only one playing that feels like the combat has lost a lot of it's fluid mechanics.
he's like http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=N1KvgtEnABY#t=68s
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Sauce on January 12, 2012, 01:39:13 am
right swing is so damn slow -.-

I hear you brother. Speak up fellow soldiers/warriors/heroes and serve up the truth about these combat mechanic patches.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Tydeus on January 12, 2012, 02:28:18 am
I hear you brother. Speak up fellow soldiers/warriors/heroes and serve up the truth about these combat mechanic patches.
I don't think I've even seen you use a weapon with horizontal attacks in over 6 months. You must have been put up to this! Surely it's not possible that we might have an unbiased opinion upon our hands!
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: oohillac on January 12, 2012, 02:38:01 am
Dear Devs,

               Please stop altering the game mechanics. Combat is getting worse with each new patch. We know you mean well, but the fixes are severely detrimental.

                                                                                Kisses and Cross-bolts,
                                                                                                 
                                                                                  Sauce_of_Chaos

aka LEAVE IN POLESTUN AND SPINSTAB
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Gomer on January 12, 2012, 02:41:37 am
The speed of battle compared to Native or other mods feels..... Slow
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Apsod on January 12, 2012, 01:47:48 pm
The speed of battle compared to Native or other mods feels..... Slow
Play Vikingr, have fun! :wink:
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Teeth on January 12, 2012, 03:54:05 pm
Its a bit too slow, but apart from that the class balance is better than ever.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: _GTX_ on January 12, 2012, 03:59:56 pm
Its a bit too slow, but apart from that the class balance is better than ever.

Nah it took a step back recently, but its better balanced than native.
Title: Please stop complaining about the combat
Post by: cmp on January 12, 2012, 04:06:07 pm
Dear Players,

               Please stop complaining about us altering the game mechanics. Combat is getting closer to our vision with each new patch. We know you mean well, but you have to consider your opinion may not be shared by everyone, be it a dev or a player.

                                                                                Kicks and Bans,
                                                                                                 
                                                                                 cmpxchg8b
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: dynamike on January 12, 2012, 04:12:57 pm
Dear Medieval Warriors,

                          Please stop wearing heavy armor. It will become obsolete as soon as gunpowder is invented. You will feel stupid having huge pieces of metal hanging all over your body but still getting shot to death by tiny bullets, be if from a pistol or musket.

                                                               Death and no Glory,

                                                               dynamike
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Camaris on January 12, 2012, 04:18:42 pm
Dear Captain Obvious,

please stop complaining about.... no i will not join this one ;)
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 12, 2012, 04:59:53 pm
Well I think it is a problem that there have been so many nerfs in c-rpg to "balance" game play.  And then it causes another perceived imbalance so to fix it, they nerf the thing that's now more powerful (because of a previous nerf).

I wasn't around when it happened, but I'm assuming when you made arrows from pierce to cut then you saw a huge spike in people going to plated armor.  I think this recently happened again when you made pikes and long spears go from 2 slots to 3 slots.  There was a huge spike in the amount of people riding horses.  And (besides Kamikazi Joe and a few others stirring the pot) have seen quite a few people complaining there's too much cav in game (which I disagree with, if both teams have 50 people, and each team has 10 or less cav, that's not too many).  I have seen a large absence of pikes and long spears however, at most I usually see 2 or 3 (total in the server) using pikes or long spears. 

I just think that after 2 years or however long c-rpg has been around, you'd have figured out the whole "class balance" thing.  I also think that most of the time a nerf isn't necessary and that a change in game play or tactics by the players is what is needed.

I do think certain game mechanic changes are a good thing, and should keep on implementing them as the devs see fit (like making weapons go from all being 1 slot, to having 2 or 3 slot weapons).  I think making the cav lance radius from about 220 degrees to about 45 degrees was a good change (I think it should be slightly opened up a bit, but I digress).  I think having secondary modes on weapons was a great implementation (even if someone used the algorithm to show that the secondary mode in every weapon is worse than the original mode, even on armor at 65 or 70).   I'd like to see cav be able to stab down as a secondary weapon mode with a lance (so you can stab in front of your horse downward, or turn and stab downward behind your horses ass). 


Dear Players,

               Please stop complaining about us altering the game mechanics. Combat is getting closer to our vision with each new patch. We know you mean well, but you have to consider your opinion may not be shared by everyone, be it a dev or a player.

                                                                                Kicks and Bans,
                                                                                                 
                                                                                 cmpxchg8b

Game mechanics are what you should be focusing on .  Tweaking individual item's every patch and changing the requirement of items is not game mechanic changes.  It's nerfing and buffing items and causing people to have to adapt (read: change their builds and equipment) with every patch.  I think the classes are and have always been pretty much balanced, even with all the nerfing and buffing that has been done.  I wish the players didn't have to constantly adapt based on the most recent patch (which has no documentation to go along with it, so the information isn't even accurate that players are basing their builds on).
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Oberyn on January 12, 2012, 05:05:18 pm
There's no such thing as perfect balance, as any multiplayer game has shown. And cRPG doesn't really have a simple rock/paper/scissors mechanic, so the balancing is even harder to get "right". And of course people will always have differing opinions about what is balanced or not.
i.e balance is an ongoing thing that must be tweeked constantly. And apparently the dev team has a Vision™ , so it's not just aimless balancing, but heading somewhere. I have no idea where the fuck to, but it'll be interesting to see.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 12, 2012, 05:08:53 pm
You'll never have things 100% balanced.  And what are they aiming to achieve with balance?  Do they want balance to mean about equal numbers of every class in game?  Or do they want balance to mean any class can 1v1 any other class with a pretty much equal chance at winning?   Cav should be weak to pikemen.  Archers should be weak to cav.  People without shields should be weak to archers. 

I don't think taking away a classes natural strengths is "balance".  Sometimes the players just need to adapt and change their tactics.  I still don't think anything is that unbalanced (or has ever been that unbalanced) that it required dev intervention. 
Title: Re: Please stop complaining about the combat
Post by: ManOfWar on January 12, 2012, 05:33:05 pm
Dear Players,

               Please stop complaining about us altering the game mechanics. Combat is getting closer to our vision with each new patch. We know you mean well, but you have to consider your opinion may not be shared by everyone, be it a dev or a player.

                                                                                Kicks and Bans,
                                                                                                 
                                                                                 cmpxchg8b



If the community is not complaining about current combat - By that I mean a concentrated effort to change a game mechanic.

Then why bother changing it? Or have you pushed the needs and wants of the community aside for your own desires?
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: dynamike on January 12, 2012, 05:36:23 pm
Huseby, what is the message you are trying to convey?

You are saying that changes need to be made in some cases, but not others and that there is a need to balance but balance can never be fully achieved. You don't like that people have to adapt to changes but tell the devs to focus on changing things.

I am not understanding what you are getting at.
Title: Re: Please stop complaining about the combat
Post by: Xant on January 12, 2012, 05:39:41 pm


If the community is not complaining about current combat - By that I mean a concentrated effort to change a game mechanic.

Then why bother changing it? Or have you pushed the needs and wants of the community aside for your own desires?

chadz has said from the start that he is developing the mod to what he wants it to be, not what the community wants it to be. Paraphrased.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 12, 2012, 05:43:35 pm
Huseby, what is the message you are trying to convey?

You are saying that changes need to be made in some cases, but not others and that there is a need to balance but balance can never be fully achieved. You don't like that people have to adapt to changes but tell the devs to focus on changing things.

I am not understanding what you are getting at.

I'm saying it's cool that they have implemented some features to the game that otherwise wouldn't be there.  These obviously cause classes to be stronger and weaker, but not a direct nerf or buff. I'm okay with those changes.  I don't think they should be tweaking item stats, and trying to actively balance classes (forcing people to change their builds, and making their equipment they've loomed obsolete compared to other items and equipment). 

An example that I know of that recently fucked over a lot of people was changing the difficulty of horses.  Coursers went from 4 to 6, and my bro (TommyHu) who has retired 6 or 7 times was never going to retire again, and he was riding his +3 courser with 4 riding.  When it went up to 6 difficulty, this long time player who never was going to retire again, was forced to retire or respec just to use the equipment he's been building up for, for months and months (more likely years).  And ended up just saying fuck c-rpg for about 3 months.

That's just one example, I don't think the balance needs to be constantly tweaked.  I think the classes all have strengths and weaknesses, and people need to exploit them, and use tactics to counter them (not rely on the dev's to nerf something). 

I don't like how they nerf something (like say making arrows go from pierce to cut) and then they scratch their head when everyone's running around in tin cans.  Or they nerf pikes/long spears from 2 to 3 slots, and then they scratch their head when there's now way more horses on the servers.  And then to fix the tin cans, they nerf plated armor.  And to fix the cav issue they'll probably think nerfing cav is the solution.  Nerfs on top of nerfs seem to be the way c-rpg has been headed for a long time, and I think it's a bad idea.

chadz has said from the start that he is developing the mod to what he wants it to be, not what the community wants it to be. Paraphrased.

I generally think that's a good idea.  But they really should have a handful of their most trusted, respected, and "smart" players, on some sort of "steering" committee to brain storm pro's and con's before they make real big "balance" changes.  Basically a cross-section of players, dev's, admins, etc who can give their input (and the dev's and chadz specifically can take it or leave it). 
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: cmp on January 12, 2012, 05:48:55 pm
I generally think that's a good idea.  But they really should have a handful of their most trusted, respected, and "smart" players, on some sort of "steering" committee to brain storm pro's and con's before they make real big "balance" changes.  Basically a cross-section of players, dev's, admins, etc who can give their input (and the dev's and chadz specifically can take it or leave it).

We have that, it's called item balance team.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 12, 2012, 05:50:57 pm
Glad to see you have that cross-section to give input...but do items really need to be constantly balanced and re-balanced?  Is there ever going to reach a state of "good enough" and let the players adapt to the settings you choose?  Or will players constantly have to change their builds to adapt to the new stats/difficulty of items with every patch?
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Prinz_Karl on January 12, 2012, 06:02:49 pm
Instead of nerfing every type of weapon that is better (the way I see it) you could improve the other weapons.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Xant on January 12, 2012, 06:14:40 pm
We have that, it's called item balance team.

He said most trusted, respected and smart players.

what you have is fasaderp, okin and shik.
Title: Re: Please stop complaining about the combat
Post by: B3RS3RK on January 12, 2012, 06:39:19 pm
Combat is getting closer to our vision with each new patch.

Snail races are your Vision?:D

Just kidding.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: ArchonAlarion on January 12, 2012, 06:40:25 pm
Every time you add a game feature, the balance will be changed. it's either more features or a stagnant balance. Old players need to stop confusing their previous expectations with the direction the mod should go. It's like childhood music with these people, whatever they heard in their teenage years is "great" everything after sucks.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Vodner on January 12, 2012, 07:19:21 pm
At the moment, melee is so slow that it is trivially easy to block a single player indefinitely, no matter what weapon they are using (this was an issue before the right-swing nerf too). This pretty much turns melee fights into a test to see who gets bored first.

I would have hoped that the developers would have been focused on making player skill more important, rather than less.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Osiris on January 12, 2012, 07:22:00 pm
well there are many classes that have been heavily nerfed before. The game isnt 2h vs everyone else.

2h got a tiny nerf compared to what throwers took and you think losing a little speed was harder to take then lancers losing most of their range. and yes lancers still pwn but so do 2h. Your class hasnt suddenly been nerfed to the ground..
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Vodner on January 12, 2012, 07:23:38 pm
well there are many classes that have been heavily nerfed before. The game isnt 2h vs everyone else.

2h got a tiny nerf compared to what throwers took and you think losing a little speed was harder to take then lancers losing most of their range. and yes lancers still pwn but so do 2h. Your class hasnt suddenly been nerfed to the ground..
I'm not a 2h. I play every weapon class. My problem is that every single weapon class is easy to block at the moment - even 101 speed one-handers. Reducing the right swing speed just made this even worse.

Every fight should be exciting. You should be on the edge of your seat, constantly a split second away from certain death. At the moment, it's far more dull than that.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Phew on January 12, 2012, 08:06:45 pm
Slower combat just increases the importance of teamplay.

Here's a pro tip: Attack people that are fighting someone else. You will probably kill them.

There might be a valid argument for increasing combat speed on the duel servers, and the devs might be receptive to that. You are just looking for a venue to show off your l33t swordplay, right?
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Vodner on January 12, 2012, 08:10:50 pm
Slower combat just increases the importance of teamplay.
Teamplay remains important irrespective of whether or not individual combat is slow. Reducing combat to backstabbing is neither fun nor particularly interesting.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Xant on January 12, 2012, 08:13:52 pm
Reducing combat to backstabbing is neither fun nor particularly interesting.

This. It's not there yet, but that's basically what Phew is saying is ideal (apparently?). Making it a numbers game, all about backstabbing, would be the most boring thing ever.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Huey Newton on January 12, 2012, 08:14:15 pm
Dear Devs,

                  Please continue nerfing cav. Cav is only getting easier for players such as myself and it is only becoming more and more of a problem.

           
Teamkills and Homosexuality

Cavalieres_Huey_Newton
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: BADPLAYERold on January 12, 2012, 08:33:49 pm
Dear Devs,

                  Please continue nerfing cav. Cav is only getting easier for players such as myself and it is only becoming more and more of a problem.

           
Teamkills and Homosexuality

Cavalieres_Huey_Newton

this but unironically
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Phew on January 12, 2012, 08:37:24 pm
This. It's not there yet, but that's basically what Phew is saying is ideal (apparently?). Making it a numbers game, all about backstabbing, would be the most boring thing ever.

The most effective combat tactic since the beginning of warfare has been flanking (which is what you refer to as backstabbing, I believe). M&B is meant to roughly capture the essence of medieval combat, where most battles were probably decided by whichever side had numbers and/or the most effective flanking maneuvers, not who had the one guy with the best fencing skills.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: dynamike on January 12, 2012, 08:38:46 pm
(click to show/hide)

Maybe where you are wrong is: there is no big red button labeled "BALANCE" and when you push it the game is all of a sudden balanced.

Balance requires changing little things, one or a few at a time. When the effects are as desired, move on to the next changes. When the aftermath is lacking (e.g. a change is abuse able or imbalances something else), the change needs to be reverted or something else changed accordingly.

This all takes time an effort and I say:

Draw your verdict of the game when everything is set and done and the dev team releases the mod. Everything before that is just irrelevant.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Vodner on January 12, 2012, 08:42:34 pm
The most effective combat tactic since the beginning of warfare has been flanking (which is what you refer to as backstabbing, I believe). M&B is meant to roughly capture the essence of medieval combat, where most battles were probably decided by whichever side had the most effective flanking maneuvers, not who had the one guy with the best fencing skills.
Sorry, but reducing things to the point where player skill has little impact on victory makes for a terrible game. If you minimize the effect of individual skill, there is literally no reason to play the game - you may as well just have every battle autoresolve based on class composition.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 12, 2012, 08:45:45 pm
(click to show/hide)

Maybe where you are wrong is: there is no big red button labeled "BALANCE" and when you push it the game is all of a sudden balanced.

Balance requires changing little things, one or a few at a time. When the effects are as desired, move on to the next changes. When the aftermath is lacking (e.g. a change is abuse able or imbalances something else), the change needs to be reverted or something else changed accordingly.

This all takes time an effort and I say:

Draw your verdict of the game when everything is set and done and the dev team releases the mod. Everything before that is just irrelevant.

It's been around for what, 2 years now?  I don't think they will ever achieve a perfect balance.  I'm just against nerfs in general, I don't see anything as being so unbalanced it breaks the game.  Continual tweaking of item stats and difficulties (not to mention direct class changes) mean that at the beginning of your current generation char you are basing your build on one set of game settings, and then at the end it could be completely different. 

I say let people get used to the settings, and if you deem a balance issue to be very necessary in fixing, then tread lightly.  If the change you implement daisy chains a bunch of other issues, revert the change and come up with a better solution.  Daisy chaining a nerf to fix a balance issue a previous nerf caused is a downhill slope that never ends.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Phew on January 12, 2012, 09:00:33 pm
Sorry, but reducing things to the point where player skill has little impact on victory makes for a terrible game. If you minimize the effect of individual skill, there is literally no reason to play the game - you may as well just have every battle autoresolve based on class composition.

Tactical aptitude is a 'skill' just like twitch reflexes. Up combat speed, and you over-emphasize the twitch reflex skill while under-emphasizing good tactics. I think the current combat speed strikes a good balance between the two. Up the combat speed, and whichever team lucks into getting the one guy with Jedi-like reflexes is nearly assured victory. The slow combat speed puts a cap on how much impact those Jedi can have on the overall battle, allowing a team with superior tactics but inferior reflexes to have a chance.

Increased combat speed could result in every battle being "autoresolved" just based on whichever team has the best ping values. Do you want that?
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Dezilagel on January 12, 2012, 10:21:55 pm
Maybe us duelists want our skills to count in battle too?

Yes, I am aware of the ping problem, and it's a legitimate one, but I'm sitting on ~65-70 ping and I can handle the current speed with ease.

We already got stat/number dependent classes (ranged and cav), can't we keep melee more about duel skill? There are tons of options if you want to teamplay; pikeman, cav, twatcher, x-bow, crushthrough who can all kill "jedi" players without getting touched themselves.

These are all classes that tremendously reduce duel skill impact, but when regular melee becomes just a teamplay element as well... Well, where are the options? Warband has the most awesome melee combat system ever developed imho, let us develop and use it!

Let close combat regular melee be for the *duelists* (there are awesome melee players who almost don't duel at all), for those who want to develop and get really good at it.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Leshma on January 12, 2012, 10:28:49 pm
Tactical aptitude is a 'skill' just like twitch reflexes. Up combat speed, and you over-emphasize the twitch reflex skill while under-emphasizing good tactics. I think the current combat speed strikes a good balance between the two. Up the combat speed, and whichever team lucks into getting the one guy with Jedi-like reflexes is nearly assured victory. The slow combat speed puts a cap on how much impact those Jedi can have on the overall battle, allowing a team with superior tactics but inferior reflexes to have a chance.

Increased combat speed could result in every battle being "autoresolved" just based on whichever team has the best ping values. Do you want that?

We need more of both, more twitch reflex tricks and more mind tricks. Because in the end everyone will become good at everything and game will become boring as hell.

But I agree that mind wins over muscle and that smart play is a lot more important than twitch reflex.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Vodner on January 12, 2012, 10:39:58 pm
Up the combat speed, and whichever team lucks into getting the one guy with Jedi-like reflexes is nearly assured victory.
A group of players can kill an individual player regardless of how fast the game speed is. A single player isn't going to kill forty other players.

Either way, if one team has a bunch good players, and the other team doesn't, then the latter team should lose most of their rounds. The autobalance ideally should prevent situations like this from being commonplace, however.

Quote
Increased combat speed could result in every battle being "autoresolved" just based on whichever team has the best ping values. Do you want that?
Native 'faster' speed is perfectly playable at 80 ping. There really isn't much point in balancing the game past that point.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Phew on January 12, 2012, 10:46:31 pm
Many of us quickly reach a cap where continued practice does not improve our 1v1 combat ability; our reflexes and hand-eye coordination simply do not allow further improvement. I understand that for an elite few, that cap is not imposed by their reflexes, but by the game mechanics.

When I hit my reflex cap, I just decided to focus on improving my tactical awareness. So I respecced to shield (to help overcome my reflex handicap), and now focus on being in the right place at the right time.

There are several 'Jedi' duelists that usually provide zero contribution to their team's objectives. Perhaps they should focus on honing their tactical awareness instead of mastering the latest abuse of melee mechanics (hiltslash, spinthrust, etc).

For those of you that have mastered both the twitch reflex and tactical awareness elements of this game: Congrats, you won the game. Now let the other 99% of us try to improve and have fun at the current combat speed.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Teeth on January 12, 2012, 11:10:41 pm
Been playing for a year, still improving.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: duurrr on January 12, 2012, 11:24:20 pm
Many of us quickly reach a cap where continued practice does not improve our 1v1 combat ability; our reflexes and hand-eye coordination simply do not allow further improvement. I understand that for an elite few, that cap is not imposed by their reflexes, but by the game mechanics.

When I hit my reflex cap, I just decided to focus on improving my tactical awareness. So I respecced to shield (to help overcome my reflex handicap), and now focus on being in the right place at the right time.

There are several 'Jedi' duelists that usually provide zero contribution to their team's objectives. Perhaps they should focus on honing their tactical awareness instead of mastering the latest abuse of melee mechanics (hiltslash, spinthrust, etc).

For those of you that have mastered both the twitch reflex and tactical awareness elements of this game: Congrats, you won the game. Now let the other 99% of us try to improve and have fun at the current combat speed.
When i play on siege i rarely go for flag (unless really necessary)

i just have way more fun trying to fight other smaller scale fights then just zerging everyone at the flag down ;) going for objectives isnt always the most fun thing even thought getting pixel xp is fun for some people  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Vodner on January 12, 2012, 11:24:38 pm
Quote
Many of us quickly reach a cap where continued practice does not improve our 1v1 combat ability; our reflexes and hand-eye coordination simply do not allow further improvement
This is a cop-out. Even at 'faster' speed, the reaction time required is still nowhere close to human limits. The vast, vast majority of players are perfectly capable of becoming really good given enough practice.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: cmp on January 12, 2012, 11:43:38 pm
This is a cop-out.

Exactly like claiming that you can duel anyone indefinitely.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: a_bear_irl on January 12, 2012, 11:50:38 pm
that's saulcanner, he can

probably the top 10% of players can block standard attacks indefinitely at this point, maybe occasionally falling for a hold or weird feint, the top ~3% have to be gangbanged or they don't die

basically the problem with the direction combat is heading is that it's becoming easier and easier to not die, duels between good players last forever, and there's not really a point to doing anything other than basic attacks, footwork and hoping someone else can get a poke in while he's blocking you.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: cmp on January 12, 2012, 11:59:41 pm
that's saulcanner, he can

I've seen him lose against EU players, on the NA duel server, so no, I don't think so.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Miley on January 13, 2012, 12:00:28 am
I don't remember what was wrong with last patch.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Vodner on January 13, 2012, 12:08:55 am
I've seen him lose against EU players, on the NA duel server, so no, I don't think so.
I've also beaten quite a few EU players on the EU server :D

Either way, when I die, it's usually because I've gotten bored and decided to take a risk which didn't pay off. I'll either go for a chamber, or go for a double-swing, or try to outrange the other guy. If I play defensively, I (and a great many other players; this isn't a difficult thing to do) can pretty much drag the duel out for a good minute and a half at least.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Kafein on January 13, 2012, 12:09:43 am
that's saulcanner, he can

probably the top 10% of players can block standard attacks indefinitely at this point

Until you fall asleep, that is.

Personally, I have the delightment of still having things to learn and improve quite fast, and the nostalgia of the long gone days I could keep up with the best. Worse yet, I used to really like everything about warband melee combat, but hiltslashes, spam and over-footwork is polluting it more and more, at least in cRPG.

What we need isn't making the game faster, it's making blocking harder. The average player developped his blocking skill way over what was intended when Taleworlds released the game. It will be quite interesting to watch how this issue will be resolved in M&B 2. They'll have to both make it possible for newcomers to start playing multiplayer together with the experienced population, and fix the problems that emerged with the increase in skill on warband. If they do not, they'll risk either alienating their fanbase, or making the game prohibitively hard for new players. And it will probably be a very complicated issue that will require a lot of creativity from the developpers.

I don't think simply increasing the speed will fix anything. EU_1 already has trouble keeping up with 100 players. Furthermore, it won't shift the melee towards blocks/feints again, since movement will be faster too. The only positive effect I see is making it harder for ranged to track targets.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Tydeus on January 13, 2012, 12:20:40 am
Tactical aptitude is a 'skill' just like twitch reflexes. Up combat speed, and you over-emphasize the twitch reflex skill while under-emphasizing good tactics.

When I hit my reflex cap, I just decided to focus on improving my tactical awareness. So I respecced to shield (to help overcome my reflex handicap), and now focus on being in the right place at the right time.

Twitch? I was unaware cRPG was a Quake mod. Reflex cap? That's your excuse for giving up on bettering your abilities? Pretty shitty reason, that's not to say that everyone has to take M&B/cRPG seriously and duel for at least an hour a day, but you might as well come up with an actual reason for your laziness. Median human reaction time to visual stimuli is about 215ms.

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php

From Waltf4's post, you can estimate that a full swing with 100 wpf and a 93 speed weapon (Greatsword speed) that the full swing would take about 1.08 seconds on a thrust, which is your fastest swing. Counting the chamber animation and the time it takes to get far enough into the swing to actually do damage, you're looking at a good 400ms at least, to block the swing, more for side slashes and overheads. That's not even close to "twitch" speeds. http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2531.0.html



Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Xant on January 13, 2012, 12:26:36 am
Yeah, M&B doesn't really require good reflexes. At least on medium combat speed in native and c-RPG. More about having the correct reactions.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: a_bear_irl on January 13, 2012, 12:31:34 am
I've seen him lose against EU players, on the NA duel server, so no, I don't think so.

you kinda missed the point, the point wasn't to argue about how good saul is but that  two very good players can extend duels for a very long time, because of a combination of increasing player skill (which is basically unavoidable, play a game for a long time and you get better at it) and decreasing "ceiling" through combat slowdowns. to keep the game "challenging" you either have to make it more complex (lots of shit to master, takes longer) which i don't think is really possible since you're locked into 4 directions, or make it faster, since past a certain speed you can't physically  keep up, as you approach that speed more mistakes get made and the "ceiling" is raised.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: cmp on January 13, 2012, 12:32:31 am
OK, noted.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Vodner on January 13, 2012, 01:02:40 am
Here (http://www.xfire.com/video/52dda5/) is a video of me trying to block as best I can with the 25 FPS my video recording software gives me. My opponent is using a masterwork longsword.

Note that this isn't a brag video - I'm sure there are at least 100 people in the NA servers alone who can block better than this at this point, and that number is only going to get higher as time goes on. I just wanted to demonstrate how easy blocking has become, even vs a weapon that should be very difficult to block.

I apologize for the framerate / audio sync - my hard drive was grinding like mad while I was recording this.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Chris_P_Bacon on January 13, 2012, 01:05:41 am
The only exception to fixing the combat is making longspears/pikes make sense.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: cmp on January 13, 2012, 01:06:51 am
Here (http://www.xfire.com/video/52dda5/) is a video of me trying to block as best I can with the 25 FPS my video recording software gives me. My opponent is using a masterwork longsword.

Good blocking. A bit boring, but mostly because that guy's attacking style is even more boring.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Paul on January 13, 2012, 01:10:15 am
The good thing now is that if wearing heavy gauntlets one can just drop one's weapon and knock the motherfondling blocker out. Unless he blocks the punches.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Vodner on January 13, 2012, 01:12:25 am
Good blocking. A bit boring, but mostly because that guy's attacking style is even more boring.
I'm fairly certain he was just getting bored stiff by the end of it.

You can make it slightly harder to block by mixing holds, quick feints, slow feints (letting the swing almost complete), twirls, chambers, and a few other tricks. Even then, none of those things are going to consistently let you get hits on somebody who is focused on blocking - they are able to pretty much always spot your attack direction, they know to wait for the blocking 'ding' sound, and they are almost always able to block non-thrust chambers.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: cmp on January 13, 2012, 01:16:45 am
I'll give that to you, that kind of duels can be very boring and long lasting. But the thing is, we don't balance based on dueling, we balance based on battle, where playing defensively might not always be a good idea (e.g. if you are fighting someone and two more are coming towards you, it's probably best to kill the guy before you find yourself in a 3v1).
Of course we could have different values for duel servers, but that's a lot of effort and it's confusing as well (practicing at a certain speed, then battling at a different one).
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: ManOfWar on January 13, 2012, 01:21:57 am
That is why I do not duel anymore on Crpg

Meh, do as you like CMP, well as long as you stay away from my damned 1H


Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Zerran on January 13, 2012, 01:38:19 am
The only exception to fixing the combat is making longspears/pikes make sense.

Why is it that people have such hate towards these weapons? Yes, they can do some strange things, but they are not as easy to use as they may look. They don't work like any other weapons, and so many people who haven't used them just consider them to be bugged, messed up, or just unpredictable. Try using one for a gen, they're incredibly fun, though difficult to get used to.

People suggest removing their ability to block - instantly dead support, GL continuing your fight then.

People suggest removing pike wiggle - even worse, this is the ONLY way to get hits in 95% of the time. This isn't some trick pike users do as a fancy move, it's absolutely vital for their ability to hit anything. Imagine if 2 handers suddenly couldn't move, turn, or feint while attacking.

People suggest removing jump thrusts - This isn't something difficult to counter or predict. If you run up to a pike user and start to spam, this is the only move they can really make.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: cmp on January 13, 2012, 01:40:56 am
That is why I do not duel anymore on Crpg

Yes, but you can't only blame the slow combat, if you're not willing to try something different. Have you ever considered mastering an offensive style too? Might not be as effective as yours, but maybe, just maybe, it could be more fun?
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Kato on January 13, 2012, 01:41:44 am
Meh, do as you like CMP, well as long as you stay away from my damned 1H

I can see coming a lot whining about 1h(left swing) in next few months, after 2h/pole right swing nerf and incoming archery nerf is 1h new op thing.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Zerran on January 13, 2012, 01:42:57 am
I can see coming a lot whining about 1h(left swing) in next few months, after 2h/pole right swing nerf and incoming archery nerf is 1h new op thing.

This is quite possible, and would be a very sad thing. 1h is, imo, the most balanced class right now.

EDIT: Just remove the swing nerf on 2H and then LEAVE MELEE ALONE. There are a few funny things in it right now, such as the 2H mace, but nothing gamebreaking.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: cmp on January 13, 2012, 01:43:41 am
If you haven't heard the 2h/pole right swing nerf is getting changed for something different, that will affect 1h as well. I think Urist posted about it in this thread.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Allers on January 13, 2012, 01:55:22 am
Ban all new players and revert to old crpg thats what i say
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Kato on January 13, 2012, 01:57:27 am
So this change - bigger stun for attacker after he is blocked will prevent 2h, pole castor swings and 1h left swing spam.
Hope this changes will be done on very sensitive way or dueling in crpg will die.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Zerran on January 13, 2012, 01:59:27 am
So this change - bigger stun for attacker after he is blocked will prevent 2h, pole castor swings and 1h left swing spam.
Hope this changes will be done on very sensitive way or dueling in crpg will die.

wat... Some weapons already get stunned for long enough that it's not always possible to even be able to throw up a block after the strike before you get hit...
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: cmp on January 13, 2012, 02:00:26 am
So this change - bigger stun for attacker after he is blocked will prevent 2h, pole castor swings and 1h left swing spam.
Hope this changes will be done on very sensitive way or dueling in crpg will die.

It won't prevent anything, it will make them harder (less hard then the current change, probably).
And no, it won't give free hits when blocked.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Zerran on January 13, 2012, 02:02:12 am
Guess we'll just have to wait and see for ourselves then.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Huey Newton on January 13, 2012, 03:14:19 am
just for future reference, saul blocks better than the best autoblock program.

get out
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Vodner on January 13, 2012, 03:28:43 am
It won't prevent anything, it will make them harder (less hard then the current change, probably).
And no, it won't give free hits when blocked.
Will this make sideswing chamberblocks more likely to hit? Because that would be awesome.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Dezilagel on January 13, 2012, 08:28:51 am
No, I don't think balanced should be based on duel; but I think the option of becoming a successful duelist should be there.

Problem is now that higher-level play is so drawn out that any kind of solo work as a melee guy becomes pretty useless.

My style in battle has almost always been the same:

Flank a little, and draw the good enemy players out into duels.

Problem is, duelling the *good* players today doesn't make for that much intense gameplay (which is what it should do imo), but rather we're like two walls for eachother.

This has led to most good players just bringing one or two teammates (often with long weapons) instead to fix the problem - boring imho.

Hiltslashing was a way to lessen the problem a little, and while I personally never bothered to learn it (I instead focused on countering it, twas fun) I just thought it was great fun as only a few people did it well enough to make it work good, and even those people could be countered so I didn't see any problem other that that there were very few other mechanics that rewarded an offensive duelling style.

If I meet someone who is clearly better than me, then I want to get facerolled, instead of just blocking him for couple of minutes like every other sob.

Balanced shouldn't be based on duelling, but getting good in melee should be rewarding. As said, we already have ranged and cav if you want ot play easymode, let melee be a little more hc.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Gomer on January 13, 2012, 08:58:38 am
Problem is, duelling the *good* players today doesn't make for that much intense gameplay (which is what it should do imo), but rather we're like two walls for eachother.
You have a large ego.... Put it back in ur paints man. Also it takes one Bolt to tumble that wall.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Vibe on January 13, 2012, 09:09:40 am
Have you ever considered mastering an offensive style too? Might not be as effective as yours, but maybe, just maybe, it could be more fun?

Offensive style is great fun, if you're dueling another offensive master. But once you're dueling a defensive player you'll just get bored and start spamming and throwing all kinds of shit on your target just to finish the duel before you die of boredom.

My view.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Gomer on January 13, 2012, 10:07:42 am
Offensive style is great fun, if you're dueling another offensive master. But once you're dueling a defensive player you'll just get bored and start spamming and throwing all kinds of shit on your target just to finish the duel before you die of boredom.

My view.
There are no duels only dead archers (unless your in a duel server)
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: cmp on January 13, 2012, 01:50:23 pm
Offensive style is great fun, if you're dueling another offensive master. But once you're dueling a defensive player you'll just get bored and start spamming and throwing all kinds of shit on your target just to finish the duel before you die of boredom.

My view.

Yes, but that might also be because you can still improve. Many of the top players (at least on the EU side) use an offensive playstyle and they don't seem to have too much trouble dealing with defensive players (apart from some block machines... cough... Urist... cough..., but that's an anomaly).
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Vibe on January 13, 2012, 02:45:51 pm
Yes, but that might also be because you can still improve. Many of the top players (at least on the EU side) use an offensive playstyle and they don't seem to have too much trouble dealing with defensive players (apart from some block machines... cough... Urist... cough..., but that's an anomaly).

I have yet to duel a player that I couldn't block when I was playing completely defensive. Not even those 16 ping fancy uberfeints get me (Atze style).
PS: I'm saying this because I'm an "average" blocker and I can still block best players completely. I'm definitely no Paul.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Xant on January 13, 2012, 02:48:44 pm
Many people have offensive playstyles simply because those used to be a lot better in the past, for two reasons. One, people had a harder time blocking. Two, gamespeed was faster (in general and insta-thrust etc). There's pretty much no benefit in being offensive against a good player, you're just making it harder for yourself to see what's going on by doing some kind of a feint combo that gets blocked anyways. That's not a good direction for a game to go in, but it's not as awful currently as some people would have you believe.. there's still only a few players capable of truly boring someone to death by blocking.

Slowing down the rightslash was a step in the wrong direction, IMO, but that's getting reverted so good. I still think the game could be made 10-20% faster without it drastically changing for mid-level play, but it's OK now. Might not be OK in a few months+ when more and more people get good, but who knows.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: cmp on January 13, 2012, 02:57:22 pm
I have yet to duel a player that I couldn't block when I was playing completely defensive. Not even those 16 ping fancy uberfeints get me (Atze style).

Don't believe you, sorry.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Gomer on January 13, 2012, 04:03:14 pm
Don't believe you, sorry.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Leshma on January 13, 2012, 06:47:10 pm
just for future reference, saul blocks better than the best autoblock program.

get out

Most top grade duelists block better than autoblockers.

Autoblockers can't block held attacks, good blockers can.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: cmp on January 13, 2012, 07:21:58 pm
Not true, autoblock has a mode that can block everything, even 5 guys attacking you at once (as long as you turn towards them). It's "a little bit" easy to notice, though.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: karasu on January 13, 2012, 07:22:48 pm
Not true, autoblock has a mode that can block everything, even 5 guys attacking you at once (as long as you turn towards them). It's "a little bit" easy to notice, though.

OMG HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS?! GOTCHA!  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Christo on January 13, 2012, 07:23:55 pm
 :lol:

Probably, because it's similar to the built-in Autoblock feature?
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: karasu on January 13, 2012, 07:27:51 pm
.oO(shhh don't ruin it!)
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: cmp on January 13, 2012, 07:29:20 pm
:lol:

Probably, because it's similar to the built-in Autoblock feature?

It is the built-in autoblock feature. The program you download just forces enabling it and continuously fakes defend key presses, to update your defense direction often.
Or at least this was how it worked it months ago... haven't really needed to check it again, since the author is unable to bypass detection anyway. :lol:
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Christo on January 13, 2012, 07:30:49 pm
Is that it?

That's lame.

Learning to actually block/parry is more fun than that. :3
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Joker86 on January 13, 2012, 07:47:20 pm
Next to all it's work. And there are lazy people out there.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: woody on January 13, 2012, 08:01:27 pm
Used to use CRPG as training for native 2h, now its almost a different game.

Its actually ruining my native play, the dynamics and speed are so changed. I've been playing native more lately and thats buggered up my crpg.

Going to have to choose between two now.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: Xant on July 30, 2019, 09:51:34 am
At the moment, melee is so slow that it is trivially easy to block a single player indefinitely, no matter what weapon they are using (this was an issue before the right-swing nerf too). This pretty much turns melee fights into a test to see who gets bored first.

I would have hoped that the developers would have been focused on making player skill more important, rather than less.
Yes indeed, and these developers who consistently over the years made the game slower and slower, easier and easier, are to be trusted with making a new, skill-based combat system in Last Oasis? When in cRPG, they had a good foundation from Warband, and eroded the skill in it as best they could? No, I thinks not.
Title: Re: Please stop trying to "fix" the combat
Post by: IR_Kuoin on July 30, 2019, 05:04:57 pm
Crusading Fin.