cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: STR_KpuBopyk on January 04, 2012, 05:46:03 am
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U can give archers more damage, more arrows etc but don't give them athletics, so they should teamplay with infantry if they want to survive. sry for my engl.
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I've been saying for a long time now that all range should have an athletics delay anytime they draw/aim their weapon.
Would fix the shoot and run problem at least.
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I've been saying for a long time now that all range should have an athletics delay anytime they draw/aim their weapon.
Would fix the shoot and run problem at least.
A problem in who's opinion eh? Naturally as an archer I have the opposite reaction and I have invested an entire 8 athletics into my build and light armour goes hand in hand with that however I don't see it anymore of a problem as I do that most melee based characters can one hit me, the same that xbows can one shot me.
I don't understand why there is a massive amount of these "ranged shouldn't be able to kite" just because someone has gotten a little annoyed over an archer who is out running them, if you're silly enough to chase them, you deserve to get shot. It's much much much easier to avoid range (archers in particular) by running the other way and weaving, the more time that person takes, the less of a chance they have to hit you because their target gets smaller all the time they wait.
Archers kite because it's a valid tactic against players who are either too thick to understand that running away is the better option, kill hungry or just down right persistant.
I hardly see anyone do this and honestly, it's rather disturbing how people have a willingness to chase something faster than themselves that can hit them from a range. I can't quite believe that I have had to 1, type this again, 2, people still haven't worked out that it works and 3, there are advantages and disadvantages to every class, they're the most balanced they have ever been, just because Robin Hood can move quicker than Monty Python's Black Knight doesn't mean that it's a problem; that's a matter of opinion.
EDIT: You're not bloody AI, you don't have a fixed list of commands that start and end with "must chase archer".
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Tenne,
so yr saying that the general tactic of a melee infantry for fighting archers should be - run and hope they die of a heart attack?
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you want kill archer? then go high ath with low armor, it is stupid when some 2h want have 50 or more armor, deadly hits and run faster then archer? fu
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The difference being that archers can wear light armor because they can use ranged attacks. Melee wearing light armor has to go to, surprise surprise, melee range to attack.
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Are you the same people that chase me when I trot around on horse thrusting a sword into the air?
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Give them more melee power or IF and take away their ath/running power.
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And give them a proper melee weapon. They really need to be punished for not having a melee weapon. Just like the old days, every archer had a back up weapon. No, I don't count the hammer as a proper melee weapon, nor do the archers themselves, cause most of em with this weapon just flee.
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Just make all the bows double their weight, then amake weight affect speed more.
Problem solved.
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Just make all the bows double their weight, then amake weight affect speed more.
Problem solved.
I like your suggestion.
But you must understand, that this will hit all «I wanna catch an archer» builds even harder.
Because people with 7 athletics and light gear CAN run faster than archer right now. so they don't whine.
Some people wanna have 55+ armor, decent shield, 6-8 ps and still be able to chase archers\xbowmans.
Next time they'll whine - HA on courser still faster than me.
Take away silly slot system. Make 2 quivers limit. This will solve problem.
Leave Flamberge unsheatable, because some people think that archer with flamberge is worse than apocalypse rider.
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A problem in who's opinion eh? Naturally as an archer I have the opposite reaction and I have invested an entire 8 athletics into my build and light armour goes hand in hand with that however I don't see it anymore of a problem as I do that most melee based characters can one hit me, the same that xbows can one shot me.
I don't understand why there is a massive amount of these "ranged shouldn't be able to kite" just because someone has gotten a little annoyed over an archer who is out running them, if you're silly enough to chase them, you deserve to get shot. It's much much much easier to avoid range (archers in particular) by running the other way and weaving, the more time that person takes, the less of a chance they have to hit you because their target gets smaller all the time they wait.
Archers kite because it's a valid tactic against players who are either too thick to understand that running away is the better option, kill hungry or just down right persistant.
I hardly see anyone do this and honestly, it's rather disturbing how people have a willingness to chase something faster than themselves that can hit them from a range. I can't quite believe that I have had to 1, type this again, 2, people still haven't worked out that it works and 3, there are advantages and disadvantages to every class, they're the most balanced they have ever been, just because Robin Hood can move quicker than Monty Python's Black Knight doesn't mean that it's a problem; that's a matter of opinion.
EDIT: You're not bloody AI, you don't have a fixed list of commands that start and end with "must chase archer".
Are you seriously stating that infantry should RUN away from ranged to survive and hope that his ranged troops do the job ?
Kiting shouldn't be valid tactic, this was main reason why this game become more and more ranged-oriented, do you know why so many people have xbow nowadays ? Yep, because of archers who can kite. And few infantry who don't have one of the following: shield, high athletics, plat.
You know what is problem, too ? I, with 53 body armor and 18str and 2 ironflesh, am 2 hit killed by some stupid archer who have just 18/21 str. Maybe i'm even 2 hit killed by guy who have just 15 or even 12 strength, i don't know for sure. So you as an archer can totally agiwhore and still kill your targets with ease.
It's not like archers can't fight back, even with minimal investment they can be deadly in melee (just take mace instead of one pack of ammo, you don't even need much ps, if any at all to fight back).
I'm ok with archers who want to run away, but i think that he should drop his bow to do it successfully. And make all bows unsheatable and with 3x their weight (before you say it's unrealistic, shield weights are unrealistic too - it's called game balance). Make all arrows 2x their weight. Reduce damage of arrows by 2, bodkins by 3. Reduce looms effects on bows and arrows. Problem solved.
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And who tells you this archer just has 6 powerdraw?
There are soo many archers out there going for 7 or even 8 powerdraw nowadays, that you can never be sure about your statement :rolleyes:
I for example have 7 pd and 8 wm. That gives massive damage, a good drawspeed and good accuracy. But on the other hand I'm more like a turtle when it comes to running :/ So I try to keep the distance between me and my targets before they come so close that I would have to run ;)
You have heavy armour and more life and a big weapon for melee. Go hide a bit and kill me from the side or just dodge my arrows or wait for cav/ shielders to attack me.
You can't have everything you know?
And usually archers were not attacked by a straight forward charge of stubborn infantry :rolleyes:
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Noticed the other day that 1 bodkin arrow took 80 % off my health. 57 body armour, 21 strength and 5 Ironflesh. Now that is ludicrous!
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Noticed the other day that 1 bodkin arrow took 80 % off my health. 57 body armour, 21 strength and 5 Ironflesh. Now that is ludicrous!
PD 9 MW Longbow with MW Bodkins, maybe?
With 30 Body armor Normal Hornbow users take like 1/6 or maybe 1/5 of my life.
You need a very specialized build to hit so hard as archer.
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And who tells you this archer just has 6 powerdraw?
There are soo many archers out there going for 7 or even 8 powerdraw nowadays, that you can never be sure about your statement :rolleyes:
I for example have 7 pd and 8 wm. That gives massive damage, a good drawspeed and good accuracy. But on the other hand I'm more like a turtle when it comes to running :/ So I try to keep the distance between me and my targets before they come so close that I would have to run ;)
You have heavy armour and more life and a big weapon for melee. Go hide a bit and kill me from the side or just dodge my arrows or wait for cav/ shielders to attack me.
You can't have everything you know?
And usually archers were not attacked by a straight forward charge of stubborn infantry :rolleyes:
Forgetting a thing called roof camping?
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And who tells you this archer just has 6 powerdraw?
There are soo many archers out there going for 7 or even 8 powerdraw nowadays, that you can never be sure about your statement :rolleyes:
I for example have 7 pd and 8 wm. That gives massive damage, a good drawspeed and good accuracy. But on the other hand I'm more like a turtle when it comes to running :/ So I try to keep the distance between me and my targets before they come so close that I would have to run ;)
You have heavy armour and more life and a big weapon for melee. Go hide a bit and kill me from the side or just dodge my arrows or wait for cav/ shielders to attack me.
You can't have everything you know?
And usually archers were not attacked by a straight forward charge of stubborn infantry :rolleyes:
Asking works wonders, you know?
I don't have heavy armor, i have mail with mail mittens. I don't have big weapon, i have a shield and 7 athletics.
I can't have everything, i am countered by cav and by archers, i don't even have edge in melee thanks to using puny 1h. You on the other hand would, with 7 ath 7 wm 7ps, outrun me and 2h freaks (or shoot them and kite me), dismount cav and kite them, and the only things you have to worry is enemy ranged and tank-horses (and your own stupidity).
It's funny because straight forward charge was effective against archers not protected by other troops, and even in crpg it should be viable tactic. Archers should rely on teammates, not going rambo and do fine with it.
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it is just lol) if archer is so super good and just easy best build, then why we have not 100% of they? i know just maybe 5-10 good archers, all other are lame as hell. When you spawn just look how many archers in your team, and ofc it is not a problem, i think we have more cav players then archers.
and Lech it is just wow, you are shielder and cry about archers) when nowadays all take axes or mauls)
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infantry and archer
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVVmNcqVqWI
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infantry and archer
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVVmNcqVqWI
ahaha awesome)) :D
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The only change I would like to see to ranged play is the disabling of all ranged weapons once one team is down to 10% (rounded up) of its starting players. So if its 30v30 then as soon as 1 team is down to 3 players, both teams are forced to use melee weapons only. 9v9 would mean disabling ranged when down to 1 player on either team.
It is a simple change that doesn't nerf specific builds, means servers can continue to use the full range of siege equipment and tactics available to them and means the end of rounds are no longer dragged out by archer duels, roof campers or HAs.
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:|
How would that not completely destroy ranged troops?
Considering as a dedicated archer or HA one has usually no points in melee, it would be essentially auto-killing any ranged troops towards the very end of a round. Similarly, by the very nature of the leveling and requirements for weapons all players are limited in what equipment or things they can use.
All that is required to prevent delays(roof camping, runners, etc) is an active admin, killing of an entire group of classes ability to fight seems rather silly.
It would be similar to suggesting that for the first 30-40% of casualties on a server melee combat was disallowed to simulate the skirmishing period of a battle. :?
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Also it would be neat to disable shields, horses, armors, 2H, polearms and 1H, if only 10% of enemy is alive.
True warriors will fight naked with dicks fists only.
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Shield is supposed to be the range counter, but really all it does it just buy the shield user time to stay alive, while his teams range kills the other teams range.
So that means that range is the counter to range.
Range needs to be move slowly during and after they fire their weapons, or kiting is always going to be what the best archers do.
Its poor game mechanics, and its not realistic. I know people frown on the realism argument but its quite fitting for this situation.
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Tenne,
so yr saying that the general tactic of a melee infantry for fighting archers should be - run and hope they die of a heart attack?
Not in the slightest... :|
Infantry aren't cut out to take down archers if they are outrun by them. Archers can't out run other archers, xbowmen & cavalry.
The whole point of this thread was that athletics for archers is "too high" and the fact that they're complaining that they're killed is what I was addressing, if you don't want to be killed by a kiting archer, you run in the other direction, it's not difficult. Play a little bit more tactfully and you'll live through the arrow spam, don't and you'll be using that chainmail to hold his arrows...
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Forgetting a thing called roof camping?
I'm all for removing it
I don't have heavy armor, i have mail with mail mittens. I don't have big weapon, i have a shield and 7 athletics.
Tell me how that is possible with lvl 30 or below?
Only lvl 32 archers or above can get such a build and that kind of archer of course exists, but it is so rare that I wonder why you whine about a special high lvl type of archer? o.O
Btw, as Agor mentioned: You have shield and cry about archers?
:lol: <-- All I can do about that
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Not in the slightest... :|
Infantry aren't cut out to take down archers if they are outrun by them. Archers can't out run other archers, xbowmen & cavalry.
The whole point of this thread was that athletics for archers is "too high" and the fact that they're complaining that they're killed is what I was addressing, if you don't want to be killed by a kiting archer, you run in the other direction, it's not difficult. Play a little bit more tactfully and you'll live through the arrow spam, don't and you'll be using that chainmail to hold his arrows...
By your logic, the best thing melee could do, is camp/hide for the first 3 minutes of a round till the archers either run out of ammo or die. If melee aren't cut out to take down archers, they should be trying to ensure that they, at the very least, don't die to them until they can ensure their ability to overwhelm them with sheer numbers.
In real life if you're wearing so much shit that it's somehow slowing you down enough to not be able to catch someone, you can just remove whatever it is that is slowing you down. In real life you don't have to put points into shield skill before you're able to pick one up and use it to block arrows. Sadly we're not going to get either of these in cRPG so you're always going to see complaints like this until archers can no longer kite. Meaning they may be able to run, but kiting becomes impossible.
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^^^^^
Athletics delay!
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Tenne didn't say best for melee is to hide.
Read properly
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By your logic, the best thing melee could do, is camp/hide for the first 3 minutes of a round till the archers either run out of ammo or die. If melee aren't cut out to take down archers, they should be trying to ensure that they, at the very least, don't die to them until they can ensure their ability to overwhelm them with sheer numbers.
In real life if you're wearing so much shit that it's somehow slowing you down enough to not be able to catch someone, you can just remove whatever it is that is slowing you down. In real life you don't have to put points into shield skill before you're able to pick one up and use it to block arrows. Sadly we're not going to get either of these in cRPG so you're always going to see complaints like this until archers can no longer kite. Meaning they may be able to run, but kiting becomes impossible.
Either i'm failing to get across what i'm trying to say or you don't follow my logic at all.
I'll keep it really really simple this time round, "Use your brain, adapt to the situation, think about what you're doing and don't blindly follow the spikey shooty thing."
You are human, you can change what you do, you have a brain that has many many different functions, don't just charge them, don't chase them, you don't charge head on towards a charging lancer do you? You move out of the way and then try something. It's the same thing, it's changing what you're doing to make sure that you murder them rather than them murdering you.
I completely agree with your second paragraph to an extend, i'd love to see someone try and run after something while taking off a set of full plate. :lol:
However, as much of the game can be modeled around realism, it's a game, it's about game balance, about making sure that the classes are even enough to make each one viable, to increase the number of people who play and that will always make some angry because "their class has a weakness against blah blah blah". I may rage and swear about cavalry and their odd hit boxes etc but I'm not calling for nerfs because they are my bane.
In short, as I have said, use your brain and adapt, don't blindly run after them and then complain because they took advantage of that and as another point, it's not all archers that can outrun you, there are plenty of high strength and therefore high power draw archers same as there are plenty of high agility infantry.
I can't stress more that you should be the one to adapt and not the game, I dont' know who it was, but someone quite recently said something similar.
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Either i'm failing to get across what i'm trying to say or you don't follow my logic at all.
I'll keep it really really simple this time round, "Use your brain, adapt to the situation, think about what you're doing and don't blindly follow the spikey shooty thing."
You are human, you can change what you do, you have a brain that has many many different functions, don't just charge them, don't chase them, you don't charge head on towards a charging lancer do you? You move out of the way and then try something. It's the same thing, it's changing what you're doing to make sure that you murder them rather than them murdering you.
I completely agree with your second paragraph to an extend, i'd love to see someone try and run after something while taking off a set of full plate. :lol:
However, as much of the game can be modeled around realism, it's a game, it's about game balance, about making sure that the classes are even enough to make each one viable, to increase the number of people who play and that will always make some angry because "their class has a weakness against blah blah blah". I may rage and swear about cavalry and their odd hit boxes etc but I'm not calling for nerfs because they are my bane.
In short, as I have said, use your brain and adapt, don't blindly run after them and then complain because they took advantage of that and as another point, it's not all archers that can outrun you, there are plenty of high strength and therefore high power draw archers same as there are plenty of high agility infantry.
I can't stress more that you should be the one to adapt and not the game, I dont' know who it was, but someone quite recently said something similar.
I don't mean to sound like an arrogant asshat, but your full of it.
The only real counter to range in this game is more range. Horses can't do it because they can't really protect them selves on approach, they can only ambush. Shielders can't do it because archers(xbowmen or back pedaling throwers) just run and shoot (assuming I use your strategy I will now be fleeing to the nearest bush) so really what other option is there, but to have MORE range in this game?
Your logic is flawed.
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Shield is supposed to be the range counter, but really all it does it just buy the shield user time to stay alive, while his teams range kills the other teams range.
So that means that range is the counter to range.
Range needs to be move slowly during and after they fire their weapons, or kiting is always going to be what the best archers do.
Its poor game mechanics, and its not realistic. I know people frown on the realism argument but its quite fitting for this situation.
As a shielder, the only players other than mauls amongst a group I worry about are ranged. Shields protect in front of you pretty decently, but even if you're slightly off center of an archer, you can get hit. Not that bad, but when your shield is up, you move more slowly, so it's also easier for an archer to hit you somewhere anyways.
Only things I could think of would be to nerf ranged weapon users' kiting abilities, or increase the speed on shielders or mess with how shields work so they can better cope. A shielder can barely beat 1 (kiting) archer, let alone 2. There are many gaps where arrows and bolts can land, even 30 degrees off. I think both might overly nerf or buff these characters against other classes they were previously neutral against. Increased movement with shield up or increased coverage might be too advantageous towards other melee, for instance.
I only see shielders beat archers if one of them decide to approach and engage in melee, or if they sneak up on archers distracted by something else (something any class can do).
I feel more comfortable in melee than doing 360s as archers circle me in shield, since getting hit by an arrow stuns me long enough to get hit by anything else. It's easier to find cover behind a building as long as ranged aren't shooting at you over your shield on the rooftops.
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PD 9 MW Longbow with MW Bodkins, maybe?
With 30 Body armor Normal Hornbow users take like 1/6 or maybe 1/5 of my life.
You need a very specialized build to hit so hard as archer.
Doubt it, only people using cut arrows seem to that that kind of damage these days.
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I don't mean to sound like an arrogant asshat, but your full of it.
The only real counter to range in this game is more range. Horses can't do it because they can't really protect them selves on approach, they can only ambush. Shielders can't do it because archers(xbowmen or back pedaling throwers) just run and shoot (assuming I use your strategy I will now be fleeing to the nearest bush) so really what other option is there, but to have MORE range in this game?
Your logic is flawed.
I could have sworn that the topic of this thread was high athletics archers..? The whole reason I tend to keep away from threads like this is that they're very quickly derailed and people completely miss what you're saying.
From the word go, i've been trying to give my opinion on how not to die, I don't see how so many people can constantly tell me my logic is flawed by pulling in things that bend the target of the topic.
I'll make it even more simple, on the point of high athletics archers, don't chase them, adapt, do something different, make them think more than just "w, hold mouse, move mouse, release mouse". That has nothing to do with anything else, purely about high athletics archers that kite their enemies.
Please take that as for what it literally means, not adding other things. My attempts at trying to give a valid response have clearly been taken out of context. I can't make it any clearer for what I mean.
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Please don't take it as a personal attack, I respect your opinions and that your trying to give your point of view as a range character.
However,
Your tactics might work on a small scale where the environment has some options to work with, but in a battle situation with 50+ people in an open field the only option is the "w" key for us shielders.
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you want kill archer? then go high ath with low armor, it is stupid when some 2h want have 50 or more armor, deadly hits and run faster then archer? fu
nobody can run away faster then u :P
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The only change I would like to see to ranged play is the disabling of all ranged weapons once one team is down to 10% (rounded up) of its starting players. So if its 30v30 then as soon as 1 team is down to 3 players, both teams are forced to use melee weapons only. 9v9 would mean disabling ranged when down to 1 player on either team.
It is a simple change that doesn't nerf specific builds, means servers can continue to use the full range of siege equipment and tactics available to them and means the end of rounds are no longer dragged out by archer duels, roof campers or HAs.
What a retarded suggestion :rolleyes:
Make all people who are ranged unperilous by destroying their weapons at the end of the round and feed them to the melees, as they have no real chance to defend themselves :rolleyes:
Some people write first and think....never?
Range needs to be move slowly during and after they fire their weapons, or kiting is always going to be what the best archers do.
Its poor game mechanics, and its not realistic. I know people frown on the realism argument but its quite fitting for this situation.
As stated in another thread, give me a bow and arrow, I'll draw it for you and show you, how fast I will still be able to run ;)
Btw Siiem, I once took more than 60% of a guy's life with one random shot with +3 longbow and +3 bodkins, 7 pd and 8wm, although he had a fully loomed transitional and much ironflesh.
These things can happen, but very rarely. It's the same with 2h. SOmetimes it happens that a 2h guy with 7ps onehits a guy in medium/heavy armour, sometimes he needs 2-3 hits. Depends on the exact point you hit (although I have no idea how all of that works, but it seems some parts of your body are weaker than others^^ And I don't talk about head :P )
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Please don't take it as a personal attack, I respect your opinions and that your trying to give your point of view as a range character.
However,
Your tactics might work on a small scale where the environment has some options to work with, but in a battle situation with 50+ people in an open field the only option is the "w" key for us shielders.
Trust me, I know it's not a personal attack, i'm not meaning to come across as "full of myself" because honestly, my entire intention of posting in this thread was to try and say that literally, it seems that most people just blindly follow the kiting archers and should adapt.
As I originally said, the smaller the target, the harder it is for the person to shoot so technically, it has it's advantages but the main point I keep stressing is that you should adapt, adapt, adapt, adapt, adapt. :rolleyes: :wink:
As stated in another thread, give me a bow and arrow, I'll draw it for you and show you, how fast I will still be able to run ;)
Try aiming at a target properly. ;) It's game balance mr Gisbert, and you know that! ^^
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Try aiming at a target properly. ;) It's game balance mr Gisbert, and you know that! ^^
I didn't talk about the aiming afterwards. I just talked about the running, as people always tend to say it is unrealistic to run with a drawn bow at such a speed. Actually running with such a light gear and a drawn bow is very slow in crpg, but hey, it's balance :)
I don't request faster runningspeed, but decreased runningspeed is by no means needed for any balance atm
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In short, as I have said, use your brain and adapt, don't blindly run after them and then complain because they took advantage of that and as another point, it's not all archers that can outrun you, there are plenty of high strength and therefore high power draw archers same as there are plenty of high agility infantry.
IRL Infantry don't have brain. They have sergeant's order instead.
But in our game infantry do not have sergeant's aswell.
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IRL Infantry don't have brain. They have sergeant's order instead.
But in our game infantry do not have sergeant's aswell.
I knew what your second sentence will be the moment I saw the first one :lol:
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Noticed the other day that 1 bodkin arrow took 80 % off my health. 57 body armour, 21 strength and 5 Ironflesh. Now that is ludicrous!
This, I have 60 body armour, I get body shot and lose more than half of my hp quite often.
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it is just lol) if archer is so super good and just easy best build, then why we have not 100% of they? i know just maybe 5-10 good archers, all other are lame as hell. When you spawn just look how many archers in your team, and ofc it is not a problem, i think we have more cav players then archers.
and Lech it is just wow, you are shielder and cry about archers) when nowadays all take axes or mauls)
Because many people play the game for it's melee system ? Because some people dislike playing runaway bundle of stickss ? I know less than 5 good archers, all other are lamers who just exploit the fact they have nice escape system thanks to high agi and easy kills with no chances to strike back (unless they face ranged or cav in some situations).
Kid, first of all i don't "cry" about ranged. I merely discuss the game balance issues. I have way wider view about the issue than you, and current balance paradigm will lead to even more ranged and tankcav on the battlefield. Good players will still do just fine, because they are good, but most of people will just shift to most rewarding playstyle that don't require much skill.
As a shielder i don't have problem dealing with maul and axe users.
@Tenne, i get it: you just want to keep your easy mode. Just a tip, before the big patch plate users on plate horses said the very same thing to every other player, i wish your class will be just as nerfed as platecav was (but in different manner, lowering damage so you need 5 arrows to kill anyone if you have less than 7 pd, lowering your speed with bow so ath 4 people will outrun you). Then i'll give you tips to adapt and l2p.
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@Tenne, i get it: you just want to keep your easy mode. Just a tip, before the big patch plate users on plate horses said the very same thing to every other player, i wish your class will be just as nerfed as platecav was (but in different manner, lowering damage so you need 5 arrows to kill anyone if you have less than 7 pd, lowering your speed with bow so ath 4 people will outrun you). Then i'll give you tips to adapt and l2p.
You know that you just want the easy mode for yourself? :rolleyes:
There are so many shielders who can hunt down and kill archers, sometimes they die, sometimes they succeed. Imagine all of them would start whining about it....why do you have to do it?
And if you didn't recognise it, archers belong to the classes that received most nerfs in crpg.... :rolleyes:
Because many people play the game for it's melee system ? Because some people dislike playing runaway bundle of stickss ? I know less than 5 good archers, all other are lamers who just exploit the fact they have nice escape system thanks to high agi and easy kills with no chances to strike back
Where does all that shit always come from? o.O
First: There are many people who play this game because of it's archery system, I even go so far to say that the number of people playing it because of that is more or less equal to the number of people who play it because of melee.
Stop throwing such stupid arguments into discussions. I really can't read that stupid argument anymore :rolleyes:
I've never played a game that has a multiplayer and such a nice system of ranged shooting and I suppose many others haven't as well, so please quit that blabla
Second: You should really wake up if you know less than 5 good archers who do not belong to the runaway-type :rolleyes:
If I take maybe half a minute I could at least name 10
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Where does all that shit always come from? o.O
First: There are many people who play this game because of it's archery system, I even go so far to say that the number of people playing it because of that is more or less equal to the number of people who play it because of melee.
Stop throwing such stupid arguments into discussions. I really can't read that stupid argument anymore :rolleyes:
I've never played a game that has a multiplayer and such a nice system of ranged shooting and I suppose many others haven't as well, so please quit that blabla
I know many persons who play the game for the very reason, heck even i play it for the very reason. Why do you think it's stupid argument, it's very good answer why not 100% play ranged shit.
Second: You should really wake up if you know less than 5 good archers who do not belong to the runaway-type :rolleyes:
If I take maybe half a minute I could at least name 10
Do it.
You know that you just want the easy mode for yourself? :rolleyes:
There are so many shielders who can hunt down and kill archers, sometimes they die, sometimes they succeed. Imagine all of them would start whining about it....why do you have to do it?
And if you didn't recognise it, archers belong to the classes that received most nerfs in crpg.... :rolleyes:
No, i wan't fair mode for him. Less ranged equals more 2h, cav and Poles so harder for 1h. Those archers can use teamwork to kill those shielders - shield don't protect 360 degrees. Why you expect that 1 ranged should have edge over every other class.
Archers also get many indirect and direct buffs.
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Archers also get many indirect and direct buffs.
Tell me, maybe I learn something I don't know yet after playing more than a year as an archer
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Tell me, maybe I learn something I don't know yet after playing more than a year as an archer
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Increase weight of shields, raising shield requirements, implementing upkeep, heirlooms, nerfing armor heirlooms, special penetration for ranged that is more beneficial for them, nerfing melee weapon heirlooms, raising weapons requirements, giving them option for piercing damage, nerfing heraldic mail with tabard, wpf reduction thanks to armor. Need more ?
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Increase weight of shields, raising shield requirements
Steel shield
Pre January
weight 12
difficulty 6
hit points 225
body armor 69
spd rtng 61
shield width 40
Now
weight: 12.5
body armor: 74
difficulty: 6
hit points: 236
speed rating: 61
shield width: 31
10,422
implementing upkeep, heirlooms, nerfing armor heirlooms
Pre january lordly armor receive 6 additional points of body\leg armor
Now lordly armor receive 6 additional points of body\leg armor
special penetration for ranged that is more beneficial for them
Ranged always have Extra Penetration flag.
nerfing melee weapon heirlooms
This is clearly biggest buff to archers. This buff make every archer twice as big, and we receive possibility to kill enemy with lightnings from our arses.
raising weapons requirements
Side Sword
Pre January
weight 1.3
difficulty 10
spd rtng 99
weapon length 95
swing damage 31 cut
thrust damage 25 pierce
Now
Side Sword
weapon length: 95
weight: 1.2
difficulty: 10
speed rating: 100
weapon length: 95
thrust damage: 28 pierce
swing damage: 27 cut
slots: 1
giving them option for piercing damage
Looks like you mean - some arrow now can do pierce damage, yes?
Pre january
Longbow
weight 1.75
difficulty 6
spd rtng 69
shoot speed 63
thrust damage 30 pierce
accuracy 96
Now
weight: 1.7
accuracy: 100
difficulty: 6
speed rating: 50
missile speed: 40
thrust damage: 31 cut
slots: 2
nerfing heraldic mail with tabard
What did you talk about?
wpf reduction thanks to armor
Even more fun
Conclusion
Don't know about others, but I can't take serious any of your suggestions from now.
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rofl, check your post Cupid
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Damn, I didn't know that 27 cut is more than 31 cut. Learn something new every day when Cupid is around to educate.
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Tennenoth, you make it seem like archers are either some sort of stationary turret until they're approached by melee or are so stupid as to always find themselves in melee positions. If you're not suggesting that melee just doesn't chase ranged, ever, which is completely unreasonable, then you're assuming something equally ridiculous; that if you just leave the archer alone, there will always be someone else to take care of him(assuming a best case scenario of only a single archer...). You keep spouting this "adapt, adapt, adapt" stuff yet have never once offered examples or explanations as to what this might entail. Adapting, could be melee waiting for ranged to kill each other off, which is probably the safest thing melee could ever do. Yet when I suggested this, you claimed I somehow missed your point.
When the objective is to kill each other off, there is nothing any melee can do that won't eventually result in the melee player chasing the ranged. Assuming all, or most of the enemy's melee is dead, you can stand behind a tree(very narrow, will only provide cover so long as the only thing engaging you is a single archer, doesn't grant any means of ever being able to kill the archer), hide behind a house(more cover, but will only allow you to hide from a single archer and won't grant you any means of killing the archer), possibly find some sort of crevice that would only allow the archer to shoot at you if he got into melee range (thus resulting in a stalemate until MotF, at which point you'd either have to give up or chase the archer).
Maybe I am missing something though. Maybe there is some sort of magical method to taking out archers without outnumbering them. Maybe EU has a bunch of maze like maps with narrow corridors that allow melee to pop out of nowhere and backstab archers. Or maybe the EU rotation is exactly like the NA one, in that it's a bunch of fields with some trees and a few buildings every map that are spectacularly setup in favor of a running/kiting ranged player.
Don't take this the wrong way just because I'm posting in this thread and am objecting to your suggestions. There are so many things wrong with your posts in this thread, that I had to post. I don't think ranged should have to just flop over and die any time melee so much as looks at them. In fact, I've always supported archer's ability to run and kite. Even before I became an admin I would argue with current administrators on the ATS/Hospitaller servers that were threatening running/kiting ranged.
So really, what are you suggesting? What qualifies as adapting?
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Tennenoth, you make it seem like archers are either some sort of stationary turret until they're approached by melee or are so stupid as to always find themselves in melee positions. If you're not suggesting that melee just doesn't chase ranged, ever, which is completely unreasonable, then you're assuming something equally ridiculous; that if you just leave the archer alone, there will always be someone else to take care of him(assuming a best case scenario of only a single archer...). You keep spouting this "adapt, adapt, adapt" stuff yet have never once offered examples or explanations as to what this might entail. Adapting, could be melee waiting for ranged to kill each other off, which is probably the safest thing melee could ever do. Yet when I suggested this, you claimed I somehow missed your point.
When the objective is to kill each other off, there is nothing any melee can do that won't eventually result in the melee player chasing the ranged. Assuming all, or most of the enemy's melee is dead, you can stand behind a tree(very narrow, will only provide cover so long as the only thing engaging you is a single archer, doesn't grant any means of ever being able to kill the archer), hide behind a house(more cover, but will only allow you to hide from a single archer and won't grant you any means of killing the archer), possibly find some sort of crevice that would only allow the archer to shoot at you if he got into melee range (thus resulting in a stalemate until MotF, at which point you'd either have to give up or chase the archer).
Maybe I am missing something though. Maybe there is some sort of magical method to taking out archers without outnumbering them. Maybe EU has a bunch of maze like maps with narrow corridors that allow melee to pop out of nowhere and backstab archers. Or maybe the EU rotation is exactly like the NA one, in that it's a bunch of fields with some trees and a few buildings every map that are spectacularly setup in favor of a running/kiting ranged player.
Don't take this the wrong way just because I'm posting in this thread and am objecting to your suggestions. There are so many things wrong with your posts in this thread, that I had to post. I don't think ranged should have to just flop over and die any time melee so much as looks at them. In fact, I've always supported archer's ability to run and kite. Even before I became an admin I would argue with current administrators on the ATS/Hospitaller servers that were threatening running/kiting ranged.
So really, what are you suggesting? What qualifies as adapting?
First off, i'm not sure how i've made it seem like they're stationary turrets, and the adaption is down to you, there are going to be flaws with whatever I say as a solution because quite simply they will be adapting to what you're doing but if you keep mixing things up, it'll make them think and therefore will increase your chances of surviving/killing said archer.
Your first paragraph, I have suggested one, and that's to stop chasing and run away, which you even stated an adaptation/extreme version. Your suggestion wasn't the focus of that reply and I apologise if that one came across as if I read and debunked it, that wasn't meant.
Secondly, of course the overall objective is killing each other off however how you go about that has many variables, one of those is archers, the whole original focus of this thread was high athletics archers, and I will answer talk purely about that;
I can't cover every posibility, it's what you have to do on the fly, as you learn how to play, you know what to do in different situations, correct? When I say adapt, I mean change how you play, change to the variables, i'm sure that point hasn't been missed and those variables are different per each situation, whether or not you're in a town map, an open plains or a moutain overlooking something.
Whatever the situation is, there isn't one godlike method of dealing with them, there just can't be, that's what i'm getting at, there will be situations where nothing you can do will work, but there will be situations where you can coax the archer into a false sense of security and jump on him when he gets cocky, or maybe there is more cover that you can use to avoid them, as you said on the subject of NA maps, the maps on EU appear to have quite a nice variation.
In my previous posts i've not been talking from a "kill it" perspective which I gathered the original poster was getting at due to his particular statement about athletics (which for archers is more regularly used to out maneuver enemies and therefore have a higher chance of surviving and dealing with their aggressor) and as such I have said run away.
Adaption applies to everything really, because no matter what class you are, you can't do things someone else can and therefore you need to make yourself do something different in order to have the desired effect, play to their strengths and to their enemies weaknesses, exploit every pitfall that you can find (naturally I mean intended areas such as high swing speed of a weapon or crushthrough). That's adaptation, that's what i've been calling out. Stop playing to their advantages (their high athletics) and outsmart them, make them trip up by using your advantages, such as your surroudings, your allies, and even sometimes, yes, it is better to wait for the MotF flag because at least then you have a chance of being closer to it in a stalemate situation.
I restate, I can't give you a godsend because there isn't one I can only give you rough ideas, as I've also said, you've got a brain, use it. I know it's vague, I know you don't like it, I know most people want someone to come along and just stop this but I also want cavalry to not be able to stab me with a lance after they've bumped me.
There will be times when there is nothing you can do, everything you try it doesn't work, just accept the fact that you got unlucky and try not to get into the same situation again.
I hope that answers your question of "what qualifies as adapting".
I hope it's satisfactory, the problem I have is that there are no solid answers to this, the whole reason I said adapt was because as an archer, the number of people who just follow me as I run off is astonishing, and it's the same people over and over. When I am on my 2 hander alt, I have a real fear of ranged because I know what they can do, I know the mentality of most archers and I guess it's easier for me to think of how best to outsmart myself or simply carry over my run away state of mind into my melee play as well.
EDIT: Don't make me write anymore as each time I write, the posts are getting longer and longer and are more than likely becoming harder to understand. Plus when I started it was roughly 5:30pm and now it's 6:30am.
EDIT again: Most of what I have typed above relates to a single archer in respect to kiting.
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Increase weight of shields, raising shield requirements, implementing upkeep, heirlooms, nerfing armor heirlooms, special penetration for ranged that is more beneficial for them, nerfing melee weapon heirlooms, raising weapons requirements, giving them option for piercing damage, nerfing heraldic mail with tabard, wpf reduction thanks to armor. Need more ?
You want me to start telling you everything that has been changed about archery in a negative way?
Btw, upkeep isn't really something you can post, as archers lose more money than all other people, except for those with heavy plate stuff or high tier horses. Shows me you don't really know what you are talking about :rolleyes:
And don't forget that with the armour nerf in the prelast patch, the arrowdamage was also reduced
Oh and yes for sure, the only class that benefits from heirlooms are archers xD :rolleyes:
So it seems that only half your arguments count as an indirect buff to archers, whereas the rest doesn't. If I start now with stating all the stuff that has been nerfed, you poor arguments will vanish into nowhere
And btw, check Cup1d's post, he got some nice numbers for you ;)
Damn, I didn't know that 27 cut is more than 31 cut. Learn something new every day when Cupid is around to educate.
You mean xD
Poor Cup1d puts such effort in his post and you pick on him^^
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These types of threads are why i went heavy cav. Tanks can rule the battlefield all day and nary a thread, yet heaven help the archer that actually plays his role.
Some people openly state they won't be happy until archery is completely removed, yet their suggestions on "balance" are bandied about every time any thread about archery comes up. It's almost a sad joke at this point.
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These types of threads are why i went heavy cav. Tanks can rule the battlefield all day and nary a thread, yet heaven help the archer that actually plays his role.
Some people openly state they won't be happy until archery is completely removed, yet their suggestions on "balance" are bandied about every time any thread about archery comes up. It's almost a sad joke at this point.
Solution?
NERF CAV! :twisted: :lol:
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Pre january lordly armor receive 6 additional points of body\leg armor
Now lordly armor receive 6 additional points of body\leg armor
Ranged always have Extra Penetration flag.
I don't know where you pull this data from. But I believe these statements are plainly false. Or armor heirlooms got buffed earlier these years, cause all I know is they got nerfed a few months ago. Heavily. A lot of people lost 10 armor points.
Also, 60 body armor gets me killed in two bodyshots.
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Cup1d's talking out of his ass, as usual. Lordly armor just got nerfed. And I "somehow" doubt that Lordly armor was +1 armor before this supposed "pre-january" buff. Other things about his post:
Steel shield
Pre January
weight 12
difficulty 6
hit points 225
body armor 69
spd rtng 61
shield width 40
Now
weight: 12.5
body armor: 74
difficulty: 6
hit points: 236
speed rating: 61
shield width: 31
10,422
You're using xmasRPG stats. Shield weight change was done before that. And that's just one shield. He didn't say ".. steel shield.."
Pre january lordly armor receive 6 additional points of body\leg armor
Now lordly armor receive 6 additional points of body\leg armor
As noted before, this is just wrong.
Ranged always have Extra Penetration flag.
He means that ranged still uses the old soak values while melee doesn't.
This is clearly biggest buff to archers. This buff make every archer twice as big, and we receive possibility to kill enemy with lightnings from our arses.
It's a nerf to melee killing power. Not much to do with ranged, though.
Side Sword
Pre January
weight 1.3
difficulty 10
spd rtng 99
weapon length 95
swing damage 31 cut
thrust damage 25 pierce
Now
Side Sword
weapon length: 95
weight: 1.2
difficulty: 10
speed rating: 100
weapon length: 95
thrust damage: 28 pierce
swing damage: 27 cut
slots: 1
Derp.
Conclusion
Don't know about others, but I can't take serious any of your suggestions from now.
It's like you said that to yourself to save us the trouble. (Not that anyone with a brain took your suggestions seriously before this, either.)
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Well Xant, my bad with Side Sword swing damage, but Lech write about increased requirements.
Yes, I'm using Xmas statistics, because we need reference point with all this «nerfs» and «buffs».
It's like you said that to yourself to save us the trouble. (Not that anyone with a brain took your suggestions seriously before this, either.)
Bah, do you really think that I care about people with brain? They can take care yourself obviously.
I don't know where you pull this data from. But I believe these statements are plainly false. Or armor heirlooms got buffed earlier these years, cause all I know is they got nerfed a few months ago. Heavily. A lot of people lost 10 armor points.
Also, 60 body armor gets me killed in two bodyshots.
As I said before, this data from Xmas version. Good old version of cRPG without upkeep. In this version +3 armor receive 6 armor points.
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Not a single example of what he's supposed to do
Y'know, trying to prove a point it might actually be useful to show that your point is provable.
I can't cover every posibility, it's what you have to do on the fly, as you learn how to play, you know what to do in different situations, correct? When I say adapt, I mean change how you play, change to the variables, i'm sure that point hasn't been missed and those variables are different per each situation, whether or not you're in a town map, an open plains or a moutain overlooking something.
Adaption applies to everything really, because no matter what class you are, you can't do things someone else can and therefore you need to make yourself do something different in order to have the desired effect, play to their strengths and to their enemies weaknesses, exploit every pitfall that you can find (naturally I mean intended areas such as high swing speed of a weapon or crushthrough). That's adaptation, that's what i've been calling out. Stop playing to their advantages (their high athletics) and outsmart them, make them trip up by using your advantages, such as your surroudings, your allies...
I mean look at your statements, they're really not saying anything. Politician irl? :lol:
There will be times when there is nothing you can do, everything you try it doesn't work, just accept the fact that you got unlucky and try not to get into the same situation again.
And then you conclude with this, bravo. saying that he should just man up and not get into the situation again while he has explicitly stated that sooner or later unless you get lucky with having ranged superiority you ARE going to get into that situation.
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saying that he should just man up and not get into the situation again while he has explicitly stated that sooner or later unless you get lucky with having ranged superiority you ARE going to get into that situation.
Know what?
Life sucks sometimes :)
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This thread has quite clearly derailed, I am a 2h and don't mind being raped by archers, they are meant to. My problem with archery is nothing to do with my class but it is that shielders can't kill them alone due to most archers kiting. I find this incredibly silly from a balance perspective since most of this game works of a counter system, which is the reason archers should "pwn" me, yet the counter to ranged (shielders) is no longer a counter. The way I play archer and have always done is that when the last alive, if the person reaches me I have failed. If the player is a shielder I will ready my bow and attempt to sidestep the shield which works if the shielder doesn't anticipate it. But after that I will enter melee combat with them, I have my tiny 1h hammer and 3 PS but I can manual block for a long time and can actually sometimes win. I will actually kite too if and only if I have team mates alive, since I can run to them for protection and this should be possible.
To summarise, archery isn't inherently overpowered, it's just the way it is sometimes played. A mechanic needs to be thought up on how to stop the archer (who is the last alive) from kiting an infantryman until he is out of arrows. This is not the way archery should work. But as for nerfing athletics for archers, just no, since that will have far too many repurcussions.
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What do people actually want here???
Some people seem to want every class to be the perfect counter to every other class. Its daft, why not just scrap all the classes except 2H and make everybody use the same build, armour and weapon. Then the game will be balanced!
Classes have weaknesses, they are part of the game. The fact is that if you name the regular EU1 table toppers you can name people from every class. Chase (2H), Polepoop, Bazinga and Tor (Polearm), Torben & Leed (Cav), Tuonela (HA), Tenne & Tamerlan (Archer), DaveUKR (Xbow), Cyber & Ramses (1H/Shield). In fact the only class I can't name someone for is throwing but that's hardly surprising as throwers only get limited ammo before having to switch to melee. Sorry to some of the Nord, 22nd, Grey, Bashibazouk and DRZ players that haven't been named above but deserve to be. Names are escaping me :(
The main problem with archers seems to be that they tend to survive until the end of rounds (either by camping or kiting) and then drag them out whilst all those dead melee players have to sit there and watch. This isn't the archers fault though and they certainly don't deserve to be constantly nerfed for it. The best solution I can think of is to just disable ALL ranged weapons once a certain % of the server has died. 80% dead would prob work, although 20% still alive might be easier to code.
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Some people seem to want every class to be the perfect counter to every other class. Its daft, why not just scrap all the classes except 2H and make everybody use the same build, armour and weapon. Then the game will be balanced!
I don't think anyone wants the latter, but the earlier I see a lot of people wanting, certainly not me since that would not be a challenge.
Sorry to some of the Nord, 22nd, Grey, Bashibazouk and DRZ players that haven't been named above but deserve to be. Names are escaping me :(
Shame on you, how can you forget Phyrex & Phase & Rantrex (2h), Jambi (archer), LoR & Dahli (1h). I also believe Chase is 1h now so he is in the wrong section. As for throwers MrFasole and Locco are deadly with throwing since they almost never miss.
The main problem with archers seems to be that they tend to survive until the end of rounds (either by camping or kiting) and then drag them out whilst all those dead melee players have to sit there and watch. This isn't the archers fault though and they certainly don't deserve to be constantly nerfed for it. The best solution I can think of is to just disable ALL ranged weapons once a certain % of the server has died. 80% dead would prob work, although 20% still alive might be easier to code.
Started off correct, suggestion is completely silly, that would mean just by chance if you were an archer left at the end of the round you would now have no use. I just think there needs to be about running and shooting until you are out of arrows, I do not mind running whilst drawing a bow and shooting. It's the people who just run for a while then shoot when they have 10 m (rinse, repeat) which bothers me, but to be honest I haven't seen anything like this for a long time. Maybe a rule could be made against the latter kind of kiting, and only if the player is the last alive because as stated earlier ranged should be able to kite people back to their team mates as I sometimes do with 2h.
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posting in what is now an e-peen thread
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Btw, upkeep isn't really something you can post, as archers lose more money than all other people, except for those with heavy plate stuff or high tier horses.
What are you on about? I have alts for almost every class and was archer on my main for a generation too, and I've always been swimming in money as archer. My archer makes more than my thrower, my two-hander, my polearm, my one-hander, my cav, my horse archer and my horse xbow, by far. :lol:
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if u use gaybow or no bodkins :mrgreen:
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My archer alt has both bodkin and tatars, as well as the top three bows. Change according to number of enemies and their armour. Used tatar arrows and rus bow when I was archer on my main.
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What are you on about? I have alts for almost every class and was archer on my main for a generation too, and I've always been swimming in money as archer. My archer makes more than my thrower, my two-hander, my polearm, my one-hander, my cav, my horse archer and my horse xbow, by far. :lol:
Play with longbow and bodkins the whole time and then be unlucky with multis ;)
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Play with longbow and bodkins the whole time and then be unlucky with multis ;)
Don't whine about upkeep when you use the most expensive weapons for your class.
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posting in what is now an e-peen thread
Oh sorry I missed Xant/Siiem(CM now) and Kansuke for 1h. ("Xant/Siiem" because I am pretty certain you guys are quite literally stuck together with some adhesive)
As for the topic on bodkins I don't seem to have problems too often maintaining them on my archer, I switched between using bodkins and barbed the whole generation (equal times on each) and had earned 80000 when I hit level 30. I may get a slightly higher multipliers though since I play this alt more when the 22nd are in full force (benefits of being in the 22nd :)).
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And then you conclude with this, bravo. saying that he should just man up and not get into the situation again while he has explicitly stated that sooner or later unless you get lucky with having ranged superiority you ARE going to get into that situation.
I have no problem with archers running and kiting but to say that there's really anything melee can do that doesn't just amount to chasing them, is ridiculous.
There are only poor and better ways of chasing archers.
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Shame on you, how can you forget Phyrex & Phase & Rantrex (2h), Jambi (archer), LoR & Dahli (1h). I also believe Chase is 1h now so he is in the wrong section. As for throwers MrFasole and Locco are deadly with throwing since they almost never miss.
I can't keep up with chase these days - last week he was a Crossbowman but he still topped the score board. Just proves the point even more though :D
Started off correct, suggestion is completely silly, that would mean just by chance if you were an archer left at the end of the round you would now have no use.
Right now if a 2H is left alone against 3 archers then the 2H has practically no use so i don't think this point is particularly valid. Also, most archers responce to whinging 2Handers is to tell them to "stick a point in shield skill and grab a shield", the same can be said of archers - with my idea implemented they will just need to make sure they can melee
The point is that as it is a game mechanic change, it is constant and everybody is free to alter their builds/playstyle to adapt as they wish. Perhaps after the dust settles the devs might decide to un-nerf ranged a bit, perhaps not but in the meantime the idea speeds up the end of rounds, solves the roof camping problem (unless the entire team does it), gets people to respawn quicker and therefore people more time actually playing rather than watching kiting archers for 2 mins
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I'm not whining about the bodkin upkeep, it's fine.
But stating upkeep as something that buffed ranged is just ridiculous ;)
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Right now if a 2H is left alone against 3 archers then the 2H has practically no use so i don't think this point is particularly valid. Also, most archers responce to whinging 2Handers is to tell them to "stick a point in shield skill and grab a shield", the same can be said of archers - with my idea implemented they will just need to make sure they can melee.
There is a large difference in the response to the 2h and yours to archers though, for 2h with 1 point in shield skill it's likely you took that from IF and so the 2h lost 2 HP, which is not that major. Now for ranged doing this would be asking them to go up against at the worst a 2h/pole with a 1h hammer, now thats a major change to their play style. I play 2h most of the time and I struggle against even moderate 2h/polearm player with the archer hammer especially if the 2h/pole backwalks, imagine what it would be for an archer unskilled in melee to face a good duelist in melee? That is completely unfair on the archer, it's a very bad idea since forcing an archer in to melee is silly, they just shouldn't be able to run once someone gets into melee range when they are the last alive.
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Use the gay mace along with the fast horn bow and you'll have no problem taking down a couple of polearm/two-handed guys.
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This thread has quite clearly derailed, I am a 2h and don't mind being raped by archers, they are meant to. My problem with archery is nothing to do with my class but it is that shielders can't kill them alone due to most archers kiting. I find this incredibly silly from a balance perspective since most of this game works of a counter system, which is the reason archers should "pwn" me, yet the counter to ranged (shielders) is no longer a counter. The way I play archer and have always done is that when the last alive, if the person reaches me I have failed. If the player is a shielder I will ready my bow and attempt to sidestep the shield which works if the shielder doesn't anticipate it. But after that I will enter melee combat with them, I have my tiny 1h hammer and 3 PS but I can manual block for a long time and can actually sometimes win. I will actually kite too if and only if I have team mates alive, since I can run to them for protection and this should be possible.
To summarise, archery isn't inherently overpowered, it's just the way it is sometimes played. A mechanic needs to be thought up on how to stop the archer (who is the last alive) from kiting an infantryman until he is out of arrows. This is not the way archery should work. But as for nerfing athletics for archers, just no, since that will have far too many repurcussions.
As stated again:
My suggestion is to put a delay on the athletics skill on all range characters that triggers when they aim/draw their range weapon until they release a range attack. Something like 3-5 second delay before athletics is triggered after a shot is fired.
This doesn't mean that kiting is impossible, but instead a range character being rushed needs to select either a) run, or b) shoot, but not both in a short period of time since they WILL get caught and run over by melee.
At the melee front line where throwers provide support shouldn't be effected too easily and should also help with back peddling throwers also.
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As stated again:
My suggestion is to put a delay on the athletics skill on all range characters that triggers when they aim/draw their range weapon until they release a range attack. Something like 3-5 second delay before athletics is triggered after a shot is fired.
This doesn't mean that kiting is impossible, but instead a range character being rushed needs to select either a) run, or b) shoot, but not both in a short period of time since they WILL get caught and run over by melee.
At the melee front line where throwers provide support shouldn't be effected too easily and should also help with back peddling throwers also.
You suggestion would encourage the only part of archery which needs to be addressed, which is when they just run at the end of the round until they have 10-20 metres and shoot another arrow and just repeat until out of arrows. In all honesty this is almost never done, so I don't think archery needs any more nerfs. Your "fix" would be a bigger nerf than all of the others combined due to the archers having the inability to dodge, which although is not realistic makes archery interesting.
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Use the gay mace along with the fast horn bow and you'll have no problem taking down a couple of polearm/two-handed guys.
True dat, but what with those who don't want to use a bow they don't like so they have to stick to a shitty 1h hammer or 1h pickaxe?
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You suggestion would encourage the only part of archery which needs to be addressed, which is when they just run at the end of the round until they have 10-20 metres and shoot another arrow and just repeat until out of arrows. In all honesty this is almost never done, so I don't think archery needs any more nerfs. Your "fix" would be a bigger nerf than all of the others combined due to the archers having the inability to dodge, which although is not realistic makes archery interesting.
How you can still move? This means that when their counter (shields) reach them finally, they don't scatter like a bunch of cockroaches.
The biggest problem with range is that its too hard for ANY melee to catch range because of weights and armour. I don't care if archers can run faster than I can, the problem is when they can run faster AND shoot me the entire time. Not only this but the second there is any danger range is easily able to slip away and escape while the rest of us who actually play M&B for what it was designed for (melee combat) do our thing.
I think range NEEDS to be aware when they are shooting, and not just spamming shots all the time while moving around faster then most infantry.
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True dat, but what with those who don't want to use a bow they don't like so they have to stick to a shitty 1h hammer or 1h pickaxe?
Either use those shitty weapons or 'do a Tenne'. He's doing quite fine with one stack of arrows, I would say. :wink:
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Either use those shitty weapons or 'do a Tenne'. He's doing quite fine with one stack of arrows, I would say. :wink:
Yeah, but he gets most his kills by meleeing people.
If I want to play melee, I change to my melee chars. But as an archer I want to shoot people. I will stick to my little short shitty weapon, no problem, but don't change athletics for archer.
This is a pathetic suggestion just because one person has a personal problem with a special class. It is the same like if I would start a thrae about reducing horsespeed by 50% or to change their movement so they can't change dirctions so quuckly, just because I don't like cav and they are hard to kill for me :rolleyes:
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Yeah, but he gets most his kills by meleeing people.
If I want to play melee, I change to my melee chars. But as an archer I want to shoot people. I will stick to my little short shitty weapon, no problem, but don't change athletics for archer.
This is a pathetic suggestion just because one person has a personal problem with a special class. It is the same like if I would start a thrae about reducing horsespeed by 50% or to change their movement so they can't change dirctions so quuckly, just because I don't like cav and they are hard to kill for me :rolleyes:
Your opinion is heavily biased.
The core of this thread is that range has no other real counter except for range, thus we have the current state of CRPG.
The goal is to make it so range doesn't need to be directly nerfed in its effectiveness, but is instead forced to either fight or run, but not both. Range characters have some of the best mobility for the reasons I listed, and their primary counter (shields) are unable to actually counter them because they just kite.
The problem isn't killing range characters in melee, the problem is actually getting them to engage in melee, whether willingly or forcefully.
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just remove ladders from battle :D they cant kite forever as most of the maps are not massive open spaces.
Stop with the realism crap please :D sure you cant pick up any shield like in rl. but in rl would you survive a bodkin from a longbow in the face? no odd that :D would you be crippled if hit in the body from a bodkin/longbow while wearing mail in rl? sure <3 and in RL archers didnt have to carry a little hammer or only a few arrows :)
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just remove ladders from battle :D they cant kite forever as most of the maps are not massive open spaces.
Stop with the realism crap please :D sure you cant pick up any shield like in rl. but in rl would you survive a bodkin from a longbow in the face? no odd that :D would you be crippled if hit in the body from a bodkin/longbow while wearing mail in rl? sure <3 and in RL archers didnt have to carry a little hammer or only a few arrows :)
In real life actually shooting a bow, especially the high poundage bows requires very exact breathing techniques to be even remotely accurate at a short range. After firing a few shots in quick succession its highly unlikely that you would be able to just turn and sprint away at full speed. I am speaking from experience, as an archer who uses a recurve bow IRL and goes shooting on a regular basis.
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Your opinion is heavily biased.
The core of this thread is that range has no other real counter except for range, thus we have the current state of CRPG.
The goal is to make it so range doesn't need to be directly nerfed in its effectiveness, but is instead forced to either fight or run, but not both. Range characters have some of the best mobility for the reasons I listed, and their primary counter (shields) are unable to actually counter them because they just kite.
The problem isn't killing range characters in melee, the problem is actually getting them to engage in melee, whether willingly or forcefully.
Total crap that archers have nothing to counter them or whatever.
Just make chadz remove ladders or make ladders fixed for everyone or whatever and you have half as many problems as now.
How often do you see an archer really kiting someone? Just beacuse an archer turns around to run 10 meters doesn't mean he is kiting :rolleyes:
I can play many hours of crpg and I maybe see kiting happen for 3 times :rolleyes:
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Total crap that archers have nothing to counter them or whatever.
Just make chadz remove ladders or make ladders fixed for everyone or whatever and you have half as many problems as now.
How often do you see an archer really kiting someone? Just beacuse an archer turns around to run 10 meters doesn't mean he is kiting :rolleyes:
I can play many hours of crpg and I maybe see kiting happen for 3 times :rolleyes:
Every time I rush a group of archers, they immediately run away 10 feet, and continue to shoot at me.
Thus kiting.
Happens to me almost every round.
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Every time I rush a group of archers, they immediately run away 10 feet, and continue to shoot at me.
Thus kiting.
Happens to me almost every round.
Oh yeah sure, cause they don't stay when a melee guy is charging them, we should just nerf their chance of running :rolleyes:
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Oh yeah sure, cause they don't stay when a melee guy is charging them, we should just nerf their chance of running :rolleyes:
Its not their chance of running, they have plenty chance to run still (even with my proposed changes), but if they want to run and continue to put range pressure on my team immediately after then something in not balanced.
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Its not their chance of running, they have plenty chance to run still (even with my proposed changes), but if they want to run and continue to put range pressure on my team immediately after then something in not balanced.
So a horse having the chance to turn around and run, directly after it stopped due to bumping into a house should also be forbidden then correct?
I mean, you can hardly get the horsy, while it can always charge you and run away again.
And horsearchers omg! They should ride turtles now instead of fast horses :rolleyes:
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Join a clan and learn tactics and be in a team, or die alone trying to counter everything by yourself while midst randomers or in rambo play.
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So a horse having the chance to turn around and run, directly after it stopped due to bumping into a house should also be forbidden then correct?
I mean, you can hardly get the horsy, while it can always charge you and run away again.
And horsearchers omg! They should ride turtles now instead of fast horses :rolleyes:
Horses already have counters, such as RANGE and pikes. Thus changing their speed and other factors is MOOT because we aren't talking about them in this thread.
Stop dodging the point, you brought up the same point several times and I have addressed it with the exact same answer that systematically labels your points irrelevant and based on nothing but comparative analysis of other game mechanics not being questioned. Poor game mechanics make the only counter for one class the exact same class, thus we have exactly what the CRPG dev team has been trying to fix for months now, the RANGE PROBLEM.
EDIT: All this change would do is make it so that when range is using their super amazing advantage, they have a disadvantage for a short period of time that leaves them vulnerable to being assaulted in melee. If they choose to disengage in range attacks, and relocate to a new firing position, they will have full advantage of athletics and be completely unhindered as they are now.
Join a clan and learn tactics and be in a team, or die alone trying to counter everything by yourself while midst randomers or in rambo play.
If this is directed at me, I assume by team you mean get range on your side to counter the other teams range.
CRPG has never been more balanced then it is now, and from what I have seen the WPF curve is going to be addressed since they have adjusted the combat animations to a point the devs are happy with. Next would be properly adjusting range to fit into this game so that it isn't the rambo class.
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If this is directed at me...
Nope.
I assume by team you mean get range on your side to counter the other teams range.
Interesting assumption but that is pleb style, and not at all what I meant.
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Nope.
Interesting assumption but that is pleb style, and not at all what I meant.
My apologies then, its tough to see what is troll and what isn't in threads like this.
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Konrax I could just quote what you said and refer with that to your arguments ;)
I really don't unterstand why there are maybe 3 or 4 people here complaining about bad kiting archers who can't be killed by any melee guy, whereas meanwhile I see many archers being killed by melee infantry on server 1 just now :shock:
Must be some kind of parallel univers I'm playing in, as they do not complain about archers running away and as most of them usually kill archers with their melee weapons while being on foot.
Weird..... :/
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Any class can kill any other class in this game, its what makes CRPG so awesome.
I won't go on another rant as to why the words I said about your points can't be applied to what I am saying, but at the end of the day numbers don't lie, and if you look at the severs you can see just how much range exists in this game now.
Horse archers can essentially do the same thing as the standard archer when facing melee infantry, however they need to invest all their points into becoming an effective archer on horseback, and have a giant target they ride that when its killed heavily cripples their capabilities.
Despite both classes serving the same function you don't see too many of them.
IMHO if you want to be a range character and kite, you should HAVE TO BE a mounted range character, if you want to have range superiority, you need to be a foot range class. At the end of the day though both types can outpace the foot melee troops.
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Any class can kill any other class in this game, its what makes CRPG so awesome.
I won't go on another rant as to why the words I said about your points can't be applied to what I am saying, but at the end of the day numbers don't lie, and if you look at the severs you can see just how much range exists in this game now.
Well, Cmp's numbers say there are still many more melee players than ranged, but hey, you seem to know it ;)
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Well, Cmp's numbers say there are still many more melee players than ranged, but hey, you seem to know it ;)
They don't , one can argue that they show that ranged players use melee and kill with it. They also don't factor kills that was done thanks to ranged stunning melee fighting melee and ranged that hit but don't land killing blow.
I would address cup1d (lack of) points, but i don't have much time to waste, i forget to mention gauntlet nerf, too. About nerf of heirloom weapons, it forced melee to go higher PS, thus lower ATH, which buffs archers indirectly. Also Knightly Kite Shield went from 3 shield skill required to 4 shield required which means shielders have to go higher shield skill thus lower ath (and lowest tier shields require more shield skill in general). The steel shield he mentioned in his post had weight increased by 0.5, which means the guy carrying it is slower (buff for archers).
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Also Knightly Kite Shield went from 3 shield skill required to 4 shield required which means shielders have to go higher shield skill thus lower ath (and lowest tier shields require more shield skill in general).
The Knightly is so dismally small that with just 3 shield skill you are a dead man walking anyways to any range user. Even with 4 you will still get your legs shot out from you. I don't think this changed much of anything.
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We are not talking about kills but about the number of ranged players
And btw, last time I saw the numbers the amount of melee kills was so much higher than archers, than you can hardly say it was influenced by archers killing someone in melee :rolleyes:
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The Knightly is so dismally small that with just 3 shield skill you are a dead man walking anyways to any range user. Even with 4 you will still get your legs shot out from you. I don't think this changed much of anything.
I use it with 4 shield skill and i don't get shoot much, unless i screw up with my positioning. I would totally use my MP KKS with just 3 shield skill.
We are not talking about kills but about the number of ranged players
And btw, last time I saw the numbers the amount of melee kills was so much higher than archers, than you can hardly say it was influenced by archers killing someone in melee :rolleyes:
You are pretending that they don't have melee abilities ? Yeah, some of them decide to forfeit melee power to be even more powerful at range and carry even more ammo. But some can kill in melee, and do it.
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Of course some can do it. But open your eyes when you are on a server. Most archers have shitty melee weapons and most have no or just a few points in melee skills.
And even hybrid archers tend to shoot and only melee if they run out of arrows or have no other chance because they were surprised by incoming enemies.
Thus the number of melee kills among archers is quite small and has only a small influence on the statistics.
Or do you want to tell me, that most hybrid archers melee people down instead of shooting them? :lol:
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Either use those shitty weapons or 'do a Tenne'. He's doing quite fine with one stack of arrows, I would say. :wink:
Oh you. Always the charmer.
Yeah, but he gets most his kills by meleeing people.
If I want to play melee, I change to my melee chars. But as an archer I want to shoot people. I will stick to my little short shitty weapon, no problem, but don't change athletics for archer.
This is a pathetic suggestion just because one person has a personal problem with a special class. It is the same like if I would start a thrae about reducing horsespeed by 50% or to change their movement so they can't change dirctions so quuckly, just because I don't like cav and they are hard to kill for me :rolleyes:
That's a so-so for the top part, it depends on how I need to play and who I have with me, when I've got Bifi/Gurni/Faarn as pikeman covering me, i'm very much range based with the odd switch out to pull some of the agro away from my fellow. When i'm playing alongside you, i'm more melee based since you're a better shot, I have less arrows and you're worth more as a ranger than as a melee than I am. When I was playing alongside Xant & Siiem, both shielders, I played half-and-half, range to cover them but I'd also use my melee to distract the enemy so that they could get nice clean hits in.
Obviously, you are correct for the most part with my melee kills, I have put more effort into melee so I have higher survivablility and chance of killing off the infantry I know I can take/can't get away from.
It does appear that this thread is going no where like most of the other ones though, it just becomes a large argument.