Athletics for archers

[Gurnisson]

Use the gay mace along with the fast horn bow and you'll have no problem taking down a couple of polearm/two-handed guys.

[Konrax]

This thread has quite clearly derailed, I am a 2h and don't mind being raped by archers, they are meant to. My problem with archery is nothing to do with my class but it is that shielders can't kill them alone due to most archers kiting. I find this incredibly silly from a balance perspective since most of this game works of a counter system, which is the reason archers should "pwn" me, yet the counter to ranged (shielders) is no longer a counter. The way I play archer and have always done is that when the last alive, if the person reaches me I have failed. If the player is a shielder I will ready my bow and attempt to sidestep the shield which works if the shielder doesn't anticipate it. But after that I will enter melee combat with them, I have my tiny 1h hammer and 3 PS but I can manual block for a long time and can actually sometimes win. I will actually kite too if and only if I have team mates alive, since I can run to them for protection and this should be possible.

To summarise, archery isn't inherently overpowered, it's just the way it is sometimes played. A mechanic needs to be thought up on how to stop the archer (who is the last alive) from kiting an infantryman until he is out of arrows. This is not the way archery should work. But as for nerfing athletics for archers, just no, since that will have far too many repurcussions.

As stated again:

My suggestion is to put a delay on the athletics skill on all range characters that triggers when they aim/draw their range weapon until they release a range attack. Something like 3-5 second delay before athletics is triggered after a shot is fired.

This doesn't mean that kiting is impossible, but instead a range character being rushed needs to select either a) run, or b) shoot, but not both in a short period of time since they WILL get caught and run over by melee.

At the melee front line where throwers provide support shouldn't be effected too easily and should also help with back peddling throwers also.

[CaptainQuantum]

As stated again:

My suggestion is to put a delay on the athletics skill on all range characters that triggers when they aim/draw their range weapon until they release a range attack. Something like 3-5 second delay before athletics is triggered after a shot is fired.

This doesn't mean that kiting is impossible, but instead a range character being rushed needs to select either a) run, or b) shoot, but not both in a short period of time since they WILL get caught and run over by melee.

At the melee front line where throwers provide support shouldn't be effected too easily and should also help with back peddling throwers also.

You suggestion would encourage the only part of archery which needs to be addressed, which is when they just run at the end of the round until they have 10-20 metres and shoot another arrow and just repeat until out of arrows.  In all honesty this is almost never done, so I don't think archery needs any more nerfs. Your "fix" would be a bigger nerf than all of the others combined due to the archers having the inability to dodge, which although is not realistic makes archery interesting.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

Use the gay mace along with the fast horn bow and you'll have no problem taking down a couple of polearm/two-handed guys.

True dat, but what with those who don't want to use a bow they don't like so they have to stick to a shitty 1h hammer or 1h pickaxe?

[Konrax]

You suggestion would encourage the only part of archery which needs to be addressed, which is when they just run at the end of the round until they have 10-20 metres and shoot another arrow and just repeat until out of arrows.  In all honesty this is almost never done, so I don't think archery needs any more nerfs. Your "fix" would be a bigger nerf than all of the others combined due to the archers having the inability to dodge, which although is not realistic makes archery interesting.

How you can still move? This means that when their counter (shields) reach them finally, they don't scatter like a bunch of cockroaches.

The biggest problem with range is that its too hard for ANY melee to catch range because of weights and armour. I don't care if archers can run faster than I can, the problem is when they can run faster AND shoot me the entire time. Not only this but the second there is any danger range is easily able to slip away and escape while the rest of us who actually play M&B for what it was designed for (melee combat) do our thing.

I think range NEEDS to be aware when they are shooting, and not just spamming shots all the time while moving around faster then most infantry.

[Gurnisson]

True dat, but what with those who don't want to use a bow they don't like so they have to stick to a shitty 1h hammer or 1h pickaxe?

Either use those shitty weapons or 'do a Tenne'. He's doing quite fine with one stack of arrows, I would say.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

Either use those shitty weapons or 'do a Tenne'. He's doing quite fine with one stack of arrows, I would say.

Yeah, but he gets most his kills by meleeing people.
If I want to play melee, I change to my melee chars. But as an archer I want to shoot people. I will stick to my little short shitty weapon,  no problem, but don't change athletics for archer.
This is a pathetic suggestion just because one person has a personal problem with a special class. It is the same like if I would start a thrae about reducing horsespeed by 50% or to change their movement so they can't change dirctions so quuckly, just because I don't like cav and they are hard to kill for me

[Konrax]

Yeah, but he gets most his kills by meleeing people.
If I want to play melee, I change to my melee chars. But as an archer I want to shoot people. I will stick to my little short shitty weapon,  no problem, but don't change athletics for archer.
This is a pathetic suggestion just because one person has a personal problem with a special class. It is the same like if I would start a thrae about reducing horsespeed by 50% or to change their movement so they can't change dirctions so quuckly, just because I don't like cav and they are hard to kill for me

Your opinion is heavily biased.

The core of this thread is that range has no other real counter except for range, thus we have the current state of CRPG.

The goal is to make it so range doesn't need to be directly nerfed in its effectiveness, but is instead forced to either fight or run, but not both. Range characters have some of the best mobility for the reasons I listed, and their primary counter (shields) are unable to actually counter them because they just kite.

The problem isn't killing range characters in melee, the problem is actually getting them to engage in melee, whether willingly or forcefully.

[Osiris]

just remove ladders from battle they cant kite forever as most of the maps are not massive open spaces.

Stop with the realism crap please sure you cant pick up any shield like in rl. but in rl would you survive a bodkin from a longbow in the face? no odd that would you be crippled if hit in the body from a bodkin/longbow while wearing mail in rl? sure <3 and in RL archers didnt have to carry a little hammer or only a few arrows

[Konrax]

just remove ladders from battle they cant kite forever as most of the maps are not massive open spaces.

Stop with the realism crap please sure you cant pick up any shield like in rl. but in rl would you survive a bodkin from a longbow in the face? no odd that would you be crippled if hit in the body from a bodkin/longbow while wearing mail in rl? sure <3 and in RL archers didnt have to carry a little hammer or only a few arrows

In real life actually shooting a bow, especially the high poundage bows requires very exact breathing techniques to be even remotely accurate at a short range. After firing a few shots in quick succession its highly unlikely that you would be able to just turn and sprint away at full speed. I am speaking from experience, as an archer who uses a recurve bow IRL and goes shooting on a regular basis.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

Your opinion is heavily biased.

The core of this thread is that range has no other real counter except for range, thus we have the current state of CRPG.

The goal is to make it so range doesn't need to be directly nerfed in its effectiveness, but is instead forced to either fight or run, but not both. Range characters have some of the best mobility for the reasons I listed, and their primary counter (shields) are unable to actually counter them because they just kite.

The problem isn't killing range characters in melee, the problem is actually getting them to engage in melee, whether willingly or forcefully.

Total crap that archers have nothing to counter them or whatever.

Just make chadz remove ladders or make ladders fixed for everyone or whatever and you have half as many problems as now.

How often do you see an archer really kiting someone? Just beacuse an archer turns around to run 10 meters doesn't mean he is kiting

I can play many hours of crpg and I maybe see kiting happen for 3 times 

[Konrax]

Total crap that archers have nothing to counter them or whatever.

Just make chadz remove ladders or make ladders fixed for everyone or whatever and you have half as many problems as now.

How often do you see an archer really kiting someone? Just beacuse an archer turns around to run 10 meters doesn't mean he is kiting

I can play many hours of crpg and I maybe see kiting happen for 3 times 

Every time I rush a group of archers, they immediately run away 10 feet, and continue to shoot at me.

Thus kiting.

Happens to me almost every round.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

Every time I rush a group of archers, they immediately run away 10 feet, and continue to shoot at me.

Thus kiting.

Happens to me almost every round.

Oh yeah sure, cause they don't stay when a melee guy is charging them, we should just nerf their chance of running

[Konrax]

Oh yeah sure, cause they don't stay when a melee guy is charging them, we should just nerf their chance of running

Its not their chance of running, they have plenty chance to run still (even with my proposed changes), but if they want to run and continue to put range pressure on my team immediately after then something in not balanced.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

Its not their chance of running, they have plenty chance to run still (even with my proposed changes), but if they want to run and continue to put range pressure on my team immediately after then something in not balanced.

So a horse having the chance to turn around and run, directly after it stopped due to bumping into a house should also be forbidden then correct?
I mean, you can hardly get the horsy, while it can always charge you and run away again.

And horsearchers omg! They should ride turtles now instead of fast horses