cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Thomek on December 13, 2011, 01:33:41 pm
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Alright, here goes something that cannot really be measured in numbers, and is going to be subjective for every single player out there, boiling down to why people play the class they do.
I want to look at the collective "Fun" as if you summed up the fun every player had in a round of cRPG.
So I'll start with my subjective experience in this.
To start with the good things:
For me, personally, the only element of fun crpg has on all other games I know that is truly unique is that it's capable of giving me an adrenaline rush. Not often, not every map, but often enough, fighting multiple enemies, getting out of a hairy situation etc.. Also, a great part of it is the funny or absurd situations happening to me, or other players. Most maps bring a good laugh!
The tactical perspective of tricking or outsmarting the opponent also brings satisfaction, as does the measure of skill that dueling mostly is. The scoreboard and the occasional leading your team can also be a nice satisfying element. Friends and knowing the other players by style or rumour is an additional bonus that comes with time.
All this is good.. But. There are some very frustrating sides, some connected with the fun and feeling of achievement, some not.
The negatives:
Getting teamkilled (Cursing yourself for being near a reckless player. Worst is perhaps a friendly cav bump or couching.)
Getting 1-shot by xbows. (Your brain and eyes are connected to movement. In a lot of action it is very hard, nigh on impossible to see a static xbowman. Mostly it's just a gigantic anticlimax to get shot by them, and I doubt it's extremely satisfying for them too.)
Getting 1-shot by cav. Either couched or simple thrust, or even bump slashed. The "get some awareness" crowd can stfu, the best players gets jumped by cav, even some of the best cav players themselves are often hopeless little rabbits once they are on the ground.
What is the worst about this, is that I cannot in my wildest imagination understand what makes it FUN for the cav player to ride around in circles and stab targets of opportunity. No effort no reward. Same with xbows and Archers. Of course it is satisfying to kill players no matter what, but I think we can talk about degrees of satisfaction.. On the other hand it is extra satisfying to kill the low effort players for some perverted reason.
So what you guys think?
What class get's the most and least satisfying kills.
To what class is it lamest to die, and to what class is a good way to die.
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I think you're very biased.
As for me, although it can get frustrating (mostly depends on MY mood), I don't usually mind getting teamkilled, oneshot by xbow or oneshot by cav.
What's really lame is the entire archer team on a roof pinning down half of the map while being unreachable because their team has 2-3 melee teammates left on the ground (thus making the "unreachable rule" not count in their case).
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What is the worst about this, is that I cannot in my wildest imagination understand what makes it FUN for the cav player to ride around in circles and stab targets of opportunity. No effort no reward.
You have no clue. For me its very satisfing to kill an enemy as cav. But I suck at the game so we might have a rather different point of view :wink:
Most satisfing for me is killing an enemy lance cav in a head on head combat, esp as I use the short Light Lance.
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The adrenaline rush of a melee fight is what keeps me playing this game
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What class get's the most and least satisfying kills.
backstabbing ninjas ^^
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Just responding so i get this to Unread replies to your post section, gonna elaborate once i get home :)
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Stabbing people with a long spear/pike/long awlpike, riding them over with cav of any kind, maybe getting off a really good shot from a longbow - these are satisfying for me. I have an alt in just about every class.
Others feel just meh.
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backstabbing ninjas ^^
Well I am a backstabber, but I often have to run around half the map and sneak like hell just to get in position for the backstab.. Survive cav and archers on the way etc.. :) It's like a mini-game for me..
And let's be honest, the real backstabbers in this game are the cav..
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The adrenaline rush of a melee fight is what keeps me playing this game
Same thank god for cRPG melee server only thing along strat that keeps me from not playing bf3 with the rest of the world.. :lol:
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Where is the infantry kills cav option? Thats the most satisfying kill for me
Edit: added 8-)
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As an archer, hitting is not too hard, but actually getting the kill is what makes satisfaction. On the other hand, frustration is when you put 3 arrows to an enemy and then the filthy 2her comes and gets the kill. Or someone who outruns you when you flee :) or throwers. Cav are fine
As a shielder, being in an open plains map in a shield wall and getting 10 arrows to your shield is good. Also getting some kills, especially against annoying 2hers.
Frustrating: hitslashing, hitting through the shield (when the enemy suddenly gets into your model and theres nothing you can do), cav raping.
As a 2her:
fun: Getting in a group and getting a couple of kills or even dying instantly.
frustrating: projectiles, ninjas, agi whores, str stackers (i have a balanced build and would love everyone to have one, and bad ping so i cant even see let alone block spamitars or katanas).
As cav i dont know, i tried it, sucked hard and qqed.
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dude i was trolling a bit. ofc everyone hates getting backstabbed n shit, but i know you always put up a good fight and arent just about the sneaky backstab.
the minigame in it. thats a good point and might make you understand why I love cav: the successful kill is merely the pinnacle of high speed maneuver, keeping momentum where needed, terrain reading and using, applied stealth, perfect timing when countering multiple cavs, chasing horse archers, successfully helping out infantry wherever they are outnumbered, bla bla .
ofc you see my class from the recieving pov, but there is so much more to it.
agreed that some people just ride around in circles and stab here and there or spawnrape the shit out of you. but its way more to everyone who is dedicated.
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Same thank god for cRPG melee server only thing along strat that keeps me from not playing bf3 with the rest of the world.. :lol:
coming to the tournament?
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Include Horse archer in the poll.
I would have voted for Archers kills Horse-Archers but it wasn't on the list.
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The reason I played around with archery and crossbows for so long is that you can always improve. I loved making headshots halfway across the map, be it on other archers, running infantry or high-speed cavalry. I always found headshots the most satisfying kills, and I still do, even if I only have an archer alt these days.
As for being infantry with a long lawlpike, I hate dying to 'friendly' cav who continuously bump me, making me vulnerable to enemy hits. I usually have full control until those guys come and ruin it all, and that's the sort of deaths that leaves me ridiculously frustrated, especially when they fuck up a 1 vs. 1. Also, I don't mind dying to archers, but I'm not a fan of losing all my health to the same one over a few rounds (targeted) or dying without having been in any kind of melee combat in a round.
Still, the most frustrating part of this came is seeing your team being raped by enemy cav when trying to guard them or spamming chat doesn't work. These rounds usually ends up with your team being massively undermanned, and you'll probably get couched when you're fighting several guys at once.
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you dont need a pole to show that everyone loves to kill archers!
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And let's be honest, the real backstabbers in this game are the cav..
Which is fucked up. Badly. Cav shouldn't be forced to backstab.
Actually, killing infantry as cav is probably the least satisfying on average, because of the difficulty of cav vs cav, and the absolute stupidity of cav vs archer bazooka-enabled fairy. Even if the chances are slim, it's still a lot harder to kill aware archers than aware infantry as cav, which makes 0 sense.
I don't really get your cav hate (or isn't it hate ?), thomek. We (light cav) are ninjas like you, but just clumsier and faster. Our satisfaction is akin to yours when you backstab someone. It depends on who died.
When I die to cav as a footman, I always end up thinking about all the troubles my enemy had to get through to kill me. Ranged don't need to go through 2h, polearms and arrowstorms to get their kills.
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Removing cav and ranged next patch so Thomek can live his dream of taking on men piles from behind undisturbed.
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Removing cav and ranged next patch so Thomek can live his dream of taking on men piles from behind undisturbed.
Psychorigid much ?
You could try to answer in a rational way, for a change ?
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Thomek hates cav cause he flanks, the flanks are cav territory, as a flanking ninja you need to consistently deal with cavalry. Although I expect cav to get scared away by Thomek's damn throwing.
Worst ways to get killed:
-You are zigzagging your way to a crossbowmen, you lift your sword and then a millisecond before you hit him his bolt goes off and kills you.
-You are fighting a worthy opponent for about a minute now, you hit him once, he hit you once. Epic standoff. Then anarcher shoots you in the ass, if its a friendly its even worse. Or even when an archer shoots your opponent in the ass. Just the pinnacle of cRPG epicness, ruined.
- Shot by roofcamping archers, theres just nothing I can do.
- Get killed by a noob spammer that crutches on armour. Like this Ivani4 guy. I hit him like 5 times, then I glance. His str warcleaver oneshots me. Urgh!
Most satisfying kills:
- Beating a gamechanger 1 on 1.
- Sneak up on an archer and stab him in the head with a long dagger. Probably wont kill him in 1 hit, but eh, archers cant block long daggers.
- Spinthrusting a lancer of his horse that thought you were unaware of him.
- When you are in crazy berserk mode and kill people with 360 jump slashes.
-That reminds me off surprising constant 2h stabbers in duel, with a quick jump slash to the head.
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True the adrenaline rush is rare in gaming, and i've experienced it in cRPG more than in any other game. As for me, the things that makes me rage quit:
Losing a x5 because a clan roof camped (or did not participate in any way) and let their teammates die outnumbered.
Cav backstab
Early death
Roof campers in general
Bad maps
I used to hate archery/xbowmen shooting me early in a round... then I bought a Xbow. Upkeep is nasty but jesus christ: some of those god damn backstabbing Cavs got a Steel Bolt in the face a few times already. That is reeeally satisfying to me ;)
Xbow long shots are also very fun to land, or a facelift to a opponent closing in for what he though was a sure kill.
But nothing beats a melee win against a duelist with similar or superior skill level.
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I think you're very biased.
/Close thread.
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Getting 2 hit killed by a hilt slash from a super fast katana - lame
Being killed by 2h cav - Good
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Lamest Death: Archers kills Infantry
Most satisfying kill: Infantry kills Infantry
I like to feel in control of the way I die. If I can feel like I screwed up in some way then fine, I have no problem dying at all. If I fail to block or make a bad move I should die. Similarly if I get a kill against another infantry I find it pretty satisfying. I don't really mind dying to cav because at least they have to get up close and you can block them, and hear them coming usually. You can see the skill some cav players have too. But if a pack of archers shoot me, especially in the middle of a fairish fight I kinda feel cheated. I have an archer alt and I just find it boring. I can even choose 10 more points in melee with my 2 hander (at 150 odd atm) or 80 odd in crossbows, and not have any balancing factor to stop me whipping out a crossbow when I feel like it. I use a shield but that can only help so much. I can wait for half the round until there are fewer archers or more opportunities to flank, but thats half a round wasted. It just slows the whole gameplay down imo.
I don't even think removing ladders is the way to fix it. It could help, but then you will just get people standing at medium range doing the same thing, while having easier shots and being lower down so more likely to hit a team mate. If their team mates are smart they will have infantry guarding them too and then if you over extend you will die shortly after possibly killing something
The ranged mechanics in the game are just too simple when you have awesome depth elsewhere. Not enough arc on the shots and too much damage, plus the debilitating stun when hit which is independent of the damage. Needs an overhaul imo. Oh, and the effort they put in for the payoff in damage is pretty comical to me. Shouldn't be piercing
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Infantry fights are always the best. While it can be satisfying to cut down a rider and see his horse run off into the distance, or to plough through a group of archers (Damn the archers that are good at melee!), there's nothing as fun as a fight between infantry. As a shielder, taking on a group of enemies always feels good. Blocking attacks coming at you from all around, striking at some unaware guy who's running towards you aimlessly with his weapon chambered. Those are fun moments. Having a shield break and having to manual block is exciting as well.
The worst deaths are the ones where I do something stupid. Like block when there's an enemy with a crush-through weapon. Or letting go of block when the animation looks finished, rather than when it actually hits.
Also, tkers who don't apologize.
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One tactic i really hate and is very cheap is the bumpslash. I can't see how satisfying that is.
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One tactic i really hate and is very cheap is the bumpslash. I can't see how satisfying that is.
Thats another one - people who play like they're driving a 4x4 and just plough right into people. Riding into someone isn't really skillful if you do that just for the impact damage. Getting knocked over is realistic, but theres no way you could do that repeatedly with a horse without it getting injured or becoming out of control. I know realism isn't 100% important, but if you're going to have knockdowns for realism you could have some other realism to balance that. At least when you fall off a horse you should take decent amounts of damage when you face plant into the ground, or slow the horse down more when it hits a player or do damage the horse.
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It's funny to see how far people are willing to go in order to seem objective while at the same time have the game adapt to their_playstyle.
What gives me a good adreneline rush is being in a good duel. Be that against an archer, a horseman or an infantry.
But as Teeth said, if you learn to read the way a battle develops neither cav, nor archers are especially powerful.
As the statistics fasader provided the other day show, more than 70% of all kills are made by melee classes.
I believe that all the whining against archery stems from the fact that we see far more 2h/polearmers who wants to be able to run around without thinking, staying cover and play smart.
Personally I am not a great fan of ladders though. Might be good to see them go away.
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Removing cav and ranged next patch so Thomek can live his dream of taking on men piles from behind undisturbed.
Yes I am biased, like every other player. (not ironic here)
That's why I made a poll, explained my personal biased position, and asked players how they feel about this.
I do it because cRPG has devs who listens to and interacts with the playerbase, and because thinking of how cRPG could be better has become a kind of hobby of mine. :) I may be wrong, but sometimes sharing ideas spins into new ideas with devs that are open and not completely pigheaded, and the mod eventually gets better. Starting out a few "philosophical" threads now and then just to measure where cRPG is at this moment, and what it can or should be is OK right?
I DO realize cav and ranged are needed in cRPG dear Paulus. They are a part of the dynamic mix of massed high speed fighting going on. I'm just asking the question whether it is FUN that they are so many, so good and so powerful as they are.
Let me ask some questions:
Do you think it could be a connection between the amount of ranged, the roofcamping and the power of cav?
Do you think dying by huge amounts of cav or arrows is fun? (Because as with projectiles, cav becomes unproportionally stronger in numbers)
Do you think these trends could actually be self-reinforcing?
If can you answer yes to these questions, perhaps it is time to think about IF and HOW we would want to try and reverse it.
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I do it because cRPG has devs who listens to and interacts with the playerbase,
This is where you're wrong. They don't care if the community screams for something, they'll do whatever they want, which isn't always for the best cause they don't play their own game. At best you can get a sarcastic comment from Paul, which makes me have so much respect for the dev team.
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I find Killing Cav as Infantry the best because It somewhat feels like you killed 2 instead of just one(The horse).
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Wait? You people get satisfaction out of this game? :shock:
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For each hundred hours played 1 hour satisfaction.
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This is where you're wrong. They don't care if the community screams for something, they'll do whatever they want, which isn't always for the best cause they don't play their own game. At best you can get a sarcastic comment from Paul, which makes me have so much respect for the dev team.
Nah.. the devs are soft on the inside like most of you.. But this is internet and they got to keep up appearances.
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As the statistics fasader provided the other day show, more than 70% of all kills are made by melee classes.
I believe that all the whining against archery stems from the fact that we see far more 2h/polearmers who wants to be able to run around without thinking, staying cover and play smart.
Personally I am not a great fan of ladders though. Might be good to see them go away.
I think this only tells part of the story. You don't have to get the killing blow or hit for you to have had a big influence on the fight. An archer will have to hit at least twice to kill usually, most often it takes several hits. Each one will put the player in a bad situation in melee where he will be more likely to be finished off due to lower HP and being stunned by an infantryman.
If you have 5 bad archers one of them will hit something while standing in safety on a building, it only takes 1 hit to screw someone up in melee or put him at a disadvantage. 1 good archer and he will wreck a team, like Camperus or Jambi (?), they can play melee as good as a pure infantryman so they also get melee kills often
Remember why people play M&B. Its famous for its melee combat. So most people will want to play melee therefore most kills should should be from melee anyway. Those statistics lump cav kills with melee too right?
Ranged and Cav server a purpose though for sure. They add to the tactical way you approach situations. It makes it a bit less "rushy", you have to think about your positioning and whether assaulting areas is a good idea. But you can have that without 10 Legosas' on roofs or spamming shots into melee. Just needs a higher skill floor and maybe lower damage. If you had to score a headshot that would set the bar way higher for archers for eg. You would not mind if someone managed a headshot, but standing spamming easy shots with piercing damage from safety, with the stun is kinda OTT. I know there is skill of course, but you aren't under pressure to perform, and can take several tries over and over to get it right. If you make 1 mistake in melee you can die because its real PVP
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As for actual solutions, not just whining :)
My position is that ladders in battle has to be limited. Perhaps 3 or even 4 slots for all ladders in battle only, perhaps removal in battle.
That will bring the ranged down on the floor, and the consequence would be a gift to cav. Therefore cav would have to be nerfed again..
A better solution would be a total reworking of how cav works. Long time ago I proposed that cav, and perhaps the cav-infantry symbiosis should be drastically changed. I would make them heavier, more solid, buff charge damage, keep the speed, but nerf maneuver hard. Perhaps the stalling of horses should be removed even by pikes. (Or at least the heavier ones) And in stead introduce deployable pikes.
I would want to soft-force cav to cooperate with each other. Making it so that a single cav is not as powerful, but 2-3 or more together could make devastating charges in favourable terrain.
That way, cav would have to cooperate to have success, but so would infantry. The deployable pikes could be 0 slot but heavy as hell, and stop and damage any cav running into them. Another change would be nerfing the damage of lances from low speed and standstill, but multiplying it further if the cav is riding at high speed.
Guess it would take some coding.. but would be awesome.
Thing about such a change, is that it wouldn't work if it was done in small incremements. It would have to be designed from the start.
Anyway.. I'm derailing my own thread here..
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The reason why ranged is on roofs is ladders. I'm for removing them from battle, chadz is not. He wins. And yes, I have fun dying to arrows because I'm Native-hardened and I know that it is usually my fault if I die to ranged. I remember a Native battle training with my clan where I was circling as a horseman about 50m or more away from enemy archers. I was speaking on TS, forgot to do the dodge movement for a sec and got an arrow to the face. I am to blame and gratz to the skilled archer, who had btw like tenfold the powerlevel of CRPG archers now.
Of course this is perceived differently by many melee-centristic cRPG players who think of taking an arrow to the knee as being highly unfair, injust and certainly not their own fault. Getting told to buy a shield is racism while hatin archers for being archers is fine.
Some time ago if someone whined about cav and ranged he was told to toughen up and adapt. But now, even after ranged and horsemen continuesly lost power over the course of crpg development, melee peps whine more and worse than ever. I don't get it.
And no, if I play battle I don't think there is too much ranged or cav. Most of my chars are inf. I don't like roof camping and turn&run archers and I suggested solutions for that. I'm also aware that cav mostly lives of backstabbing, but I haven't seen a good solution suggestion for that yet. Imo mostly the inf is to blame because of the lack of awareness. Actually making cav stronger in 1on1 against an aware oponent is the only I see, but most of 'em dirty-boots would hate that. I suggested a spawn delay for cav to at least lessen spawn and late spawner rape. I also suggested a 50% damage reduction for horses against arrows/bolts to encourage cav to go for ranged.
But I will oppose all attemps of turning cRPG into the melee only perversity some people seem to dream of.
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I for one always enjoy a good duel, be it against one or several people.
I also enjoy fighting in small melee scrims and against "non-my old friendgy" cav. (i.e cav that actually tries to go for it and not just scurries away at the first tiny hint of awareness to go backstab peasants) One time I met a cav that tried to lance me from behind and when that failed stopped, dismounted and gave me a good duel, that was really cool!
Archers are for the most part, well, boring. Boring to get shot by, boring to run after for minutes, and boring to kill since there's usually no skill involved as you just backstab them. That is not to say that there aren't good archers that I respect, Inhumane for example is excellent and fun, both as a teammate and as an opponent.
X-bows I find more tolerable, since they put out less total damage and cannot kite although some of them also run which is weird.
Now there are some mechanics that I think are bullshit (kiting, roofcamping, CT, archersdoingfucking100piercedamage etc.), but ignoring that there are some ways of dying that are "extra-lame":
1. Friendly arrow in melee fight.
This is my top annoyance since it happens so often, and the archers (well, and xbowmen and throwers, but they're less common) seem to never learn. DON'T STUPIDLY FIRE INTO MELEE! Getting a friendly arrow in the back is not only very frustrating but also devastating to a melee player b/c of damage and the stagger. Most of the time when they stagger you to death, they don't even apologize as well. "Fucking bullshit"
2. Friendly cav in melee fight.
Some cav tk:s are understandable, but a lot of them are just stupid. Like today I managed to dehorse a guy who carried nothing but a heavy lance. Moving in for the kil.... Couched by friendly. It's a bit the same as with archers, cav teamhits are more devastating than melee ones. Knockdown is a bitch, couch is almost always insta-death and well speed bonus tends to cause "fun" things to happen.
3. Rage teamhits.
This is not as common as the other ones but these "eye for an eye" guys who slash you back if you accidentally hit them really need to lay it off.
That said, I'd like to see cav with more 1v1 and head-on power but less backstab mechanics, horses with more ability to survive ranged, more shield survivability vs arrows, less runners and no ladders. Oh, and no polestagger.
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I don't think anyone suggested removing archers or gimping them into uselessness, Paul. Dodging is a fair point, but that can only go so far - you're still just seeing if the archer will miss. You can't force him miss if he's good, and if theres more than 1 the chance of something hitting gets to the point where you will get hit no matter what.
People use shields, but you can't have it out all the time and its only got limited area of effect. If an archer doesn't want to be caught he won't be since he wears lighter gear and has high athletics. Or is hiding on a roof in the first place ofc.
You can't expect people to simply hide all game. You have to make a push at some point, especially on uncoordinated pubs. I don't think melee fights should be decided too much based on people not even having to risk themselves in combat
I regularly see even the best melee players getting stomped by repeated bow hits and I just feel bad for them, especially when its just after an epic fight with another good melee player. Its just too easy to play archer/crossbowman and too safe
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I'm for removing them from battle, chadz is not.
Why? Donkeylord, please explain!
who had btw like tenfold the powerlevel of CRPG archers now.
Thats the reason why I am here. Native threw away the gem of a combat system they created, by making ranged so powerful that actually using this combat system was neigh impossible. Just can't understand that. cRPG made shieldless infantry playable. Other things made me stay, but thats the main reason I came to this mod.
Getting told to buy a shield is racism while hatin archers for being archers is fine.
Thats cause buying a shield barely helps anything. 80% of my time in battle is spent either in combat or dangerously close to combat. I can't have my shield in my hands during that time, cause I have to fight.
The other 20% of the time ranged doesn't trouble me much, I just dodge with my mouse.
Shield is useless when archers are spread out and shooting from different angles (from different roofs) Catching archers with my shield out slows me down, so not much use for it there either.
I think the few times I've tried a 2h and a shield I died more times due to getting caught in melee with my shield out than that the shield saved me.
Paul you seem to have the right ideas for how to fix ranged. Now just drug chadz or something.
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Just rename every thread title to "Debate about archers and ladders".
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Just rename every thread title to "Debate about archers and ladders".
There is a reason that always happens. It is the most urgent problem in cRPG, and one of the easiest to fix. Seems like most of the devs are on board. Now we just need to convince chadz.
Get your torches and pitchforks!
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You forgot to put "Lamest Death: FRIENDLY Archer kills Infantry" and "Lamest Death: FRIENDLY Cav kills Infantry." :mrgreen:
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There is a reason that always happens. It is the most urgent problem in cRPG, and one of the easiest to fix. Seems like most of the devs are on board. Now we just need to convince chadz.
Get your torches and pitchforks!
How about an ingame protest? STF archer/crossbowmen them into submission. Could you do that with infantry? Doubt it. If the server is full of ranged they will do something
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Ok what you say makes overall sense Paul.
The awareness argument is partly invalid though, as the best players fall for the washing machine that is cav in numbers (from inf pov) Sooner or later they will get you, and If they don't they are just about to ride past 40 of your teammates in the next 8 seconds. There is always a chance to catch someone unaware or let's call it "busy with something else", and sooner or later it will be you. BAM you are dead. (Not to say that many does need more awareness.. But cut them some slack, not everyone had the best day, the best ping, had an archer duel then, maybe they are tired from work, just retarded or whatnot. I do believe most players reach an unprecedented personal MAX when it comes to awareness after a month of cRPG.)
Tell chadz that I told him to limit ladders in battle. Let them take 3 slots, then no one can carry 2, and since (almost) no one uses just a 1h it will force cooperation. Overall only real teamplayers will use it, and it will be much less common than now. (More like a breath of fresh air, a moment of relaxation, and a break from the constant paranoia the heavy weed smoking archers would normally experience when not on a roof)
Otherwise I understand chadz argument. Ladders are a cool element, makes stuff creative, makes us use the environment etc..
The "Thoughen up you pussies" is just a retarded argument.. OK some people need to hear it, but generally it's just retarded when trying to share ideas about the game.
Anyway.. What I understand, but also what I think was a mistake, was to remove the Pike in your Pocket mechanism we had before. It was always a fun game between cav and infantry, whether they had a long one in their pants. Did the cav spot it? I just loved to pull out my bamboo and stick it in the horses face.. Cav was much more powerful then, but so were our counters!
I don't think I want those unrealistic spears back, but that means we need an alternative ways to stop cav, and then to once again buff cav.. Or just rethink the whole thing.
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Reduce cav maneuver, but buff hitpoints and armour rating, maybe speed too.
Less maneuver means less unpredictable. Which makes the player with suckish awareness more able to predict the direction of nearby enemy cav. Cav will need to plan ahead, cause they can't get out of hairy situations as easily anymore. Still they get a little more room for mistake with more hitpoints, also making up for being less able to dodge ranged fire.
Also, how bout them deployable stakes? I don't mind if they can't actually damage cav, stopping is enough. Could provide a nice tactical element and some safeguarding for archers if they can't roofcamp anymore.
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for me killing archers pleases me because they are hard to kill espically when they run around your horse
Most annoying and lame death is when I get LOL stabbed by a 2her when I try and lance them...the LOL stab out ranges the HL as many of you know and I find it lame how it does so :?
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for me killing archers pleases me because they are hard to kill espically when they run around your horse
Most annoying and lame death is when I get LOL stabbed by a 2her when I try and lance them...the LOL stab out ranges the HL as many of you know and I find it lame how it does so :?
Only if we aim for the horse. We can hit the horse before you hit us, we can't hit you before you hit us. Funny thing is, that when I stab a horse in the face with it moving in full speed towards me, it survives, even the arabian, leaving the horseman still able to splatter my brain all over his lance.
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Lamest way of dying: Getting shot, because I cannot defend myself.
Favourite kills: Killing another infantry. 1-5 vs. me. Teammates just take away from my fun, really, they get in the way.
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The only solution is to buff heavy cav.
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Worst way to die, being bumped by a team mate whilst he is trying to help you, instead he bumps you and the enemy kills you whilst you're on the floor, i'd rather be team killed...
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Lamest Death, HOW one class kills another.
I have no problem getting headshot, but a luckshot killing someone 10 seconds into a match at the other spawn is bullcrap.
For me, it is topped by being bumped to death by a maneuverable cav or two, where there is literally nothing you can do and die a slow and painful death.
So in essence, I don't mind being killed by any class, I mind HOW they kill me.
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Also adding to that, spawning and instanly having a lance in your face, that's damn annoying...
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Also adding to that, spawning and instanly having a lance in your face, that's damn annoying...
Just push tab and see if Maganda is in server :wink:
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Also adding to that, spawning and instanly having a lance in your face, that's damn annoying...
This! On my old computer I always had a 2-5 second freeze when I spawned after just joining. I have been couched within that freeze multiple times. Mostly by some GK. They should permaban anyone that comes near the other spawn within 20 seconds.
Or if you spawn and there are about 6 enemy cav trying to kill you, with you being all alone and having to walk a 100m till the first cover. Very satisfying though if they bump into eachother and you manage to kill a few.
Ah thanks Dezi, Maganda indeed, ban that guy, such behaviour is just despicable.
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It happens on every single map and for every single round, fair enough, i used to do something similar when i played as cav, but i usually liked to come up from behind the main group, but you usually get around 10 cav charging directly to the enemys spawn for the purpose of catching late spawners, wouldn't be a problem if i still played as cavalry, i'd fuck up every single one of those spawn rapers... :D
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Maganda is the king of spawn rape.
Fucking coward...
The only way to play cavalry with dignity is to very slowly charge towards the mob of enemies flailing a morningstar and screaming god wills it.
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Most honorable way of playing cav is slaughtering all those other cav cunts on the opposite team. Only the righteous shall ride! And if you manage to get cav superiority for your team that can very often guarantee a win.
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Like many, I am most annoyed when I am killed by some sort of ranged as an infantry player. The most fun, though, probably comes when I'm trying to lance multiple enemy cavalry.
Second to that would probably be backstabbing crossbowmen as an infantry player. Archers just don't die to backstabs any more, but dedicated crossbowmen can be relied on to have less IF.
Taking on multiple melee players as a melee player is always satisfying, too, whether you win or lose. Unless more than one of them have pikes or something.
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Which is what the poll says.
11 of 20 cav says killing cav is most satisfying. 7 Find killing archers most satisfying and 2, 2 find killing infantry most satisfying. Cav likes killing cav and archers. Which means cav is the last class to complain about the amount of cav and archers :)
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Which means cav is the last class to complain about the amount of cav and archers :)
Then why does LLJK Heavy Cav bitch about them so often despite still topping the scoreboards -_-
Whiny no-skill NA cav... Says something when Torben comes over and steam rolls the team despite high ping...
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Not really. We like killing them because they're the ones that most often kill us. It's self explanatory.
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Then why does LLJK Heavy Cav bitch about them so often despite still topping the scoreboards -_-
Whiny no-skill NA cav... Says something when Torben comes over and steam rolls the team despite high ping...
Sometimes, I have trouble not assuming you're some sort of misanthrope.
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Sometimes, I have trouble not assuming you're some sort of misanthrope.
<3
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Most honorable way of playing cav is slaughtering all those other cav cunts on the opposite team. Only the righteous shall ride! And if you manage to get cav superiority for your team that can very often guarantee a win.
A wise man.
You still using the arab warhorse ? Good choice there. I still have mine I think. Best horse for taking out other lancers.
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You still using the arab warhorse ? Good choice there. I still have mine I think. Best horse for taking out other lancers.
true. shes a pain in the butt. but a sexy one.
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true. shes a pain in the butt. but a sexy one.
The price went up again right ? I remember it was 780k for a champ arab not so long ago.
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ya, still a bit less than they should be due to 7riding skill shortage, but they managed to be worth over a million for sure.
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I find it extremely satisfying to kill footmen as cavalry (1h cav here), and I find it challenging to do so most of the time. Everybody seems to pack a spear these days.
Horse archers annoy me, but I either avoid them or team up with other cavalry.
I try to avoid complaining on how I die, as I know the vast majority of the time it was my fault.
The most fun for me comes from the ragdoll models, wish more games had them, and the plain fact that I'm playing a FPS-like action game but it's third-person and has swords.
As for the ladders, I think certain buildings in each map should have hollowed-out, "inside" models with staircases to the roof and windows, and ladders are removed. That way, archers can stay up high if they like, yet frustrated melee can at least die throwing themselves at a possible-to-kill enemy camping a staircase, rather than an unscalable building. I have no idea if there are models already made for some of the building interiors, so this may not work.
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Upon round start I run off to whichever field the cavalry congregates and jump slash them down to size. I dislike mounted.
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Upon round start I run off to whichever field the cavalry congregates and jump slash them down to size. I dislike mounted.
actually i love doing the same with my pilgrim disguise and my lhb : )
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Lamest Death: Archers kills Infantry
Most satisfying kill: Infantry kills Infantry
I like to feel in control of the way I die. If I can feel like I screwed up in some way then fine, I have no problem dying at all. If I fail to block or make a bad move I should die. Similarly if I get a kill against another infantry I find it pretty satisfying. I don't really mind dying to cav because at least they have to get up close and you can block them, and hear them coming usually. You can see the skill some cav players have too. But if a pack of archers shoot me, especially in the middle of a fairish fight I kinda feel cheated. I have an archer alt and I just find it boring. I can even choose 10 more points in melee with my 2 hander (at 150 odd atm) or 80 odd in crossbows, and not have any balancing factor to stop me whipping out a crossbow when I feel like it. I use a shield but that can only help so much. I can wait for half the round until there are fewer archers or more opportunities to flank, but thats half a round wasted. It just slows the whole gameplay down imo.
I don't even think removing ladders is the way to fix it. It could help, but then you will just get people standing at medium range doing the same thing, while having easier shots and being lower down so more likely to hit a team mate. If their team mates are smart they will have infantry guarding them too and then if you over extend you will die shortly after possibly killing something
The ranged mechanics in the game are just too simple when you have awesome depth elsewhere. Not enough arc on the shots and too much damage, plus the debilitating stun when hit which is independent of the damage. Needs an overhaul imo. Oh, and the effort they put in for the payoff in damage is pretty comical to me. Shouldn't be piercing
agreed with every single point of the statement
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Paul, do something with run away archers. They 2 hit me and i can't catch them with my 8 athletics (i have 3 if and 15 str and +3 armor and gloves), it's not cool anymore. Decrease their speed so people with 5 athletics can catch archers in light armor and then i can deal with getting 2 hit killed - if they want run away they should throw away their bows/xbows.
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For me lamest would be couch killing as you only need to be accurate or lucky to score a free kill.
Many times I see people fall for the cheap trick at the start of every fucking round and they still keep on moving forward as if nothing happened....
"Oh the pal next to me just died hmm must be magic let's keep on moving forward without looking at my back"
So I blame stupidity too but still I hate couch kills.
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My option for lamest death is not on there, which is getting run over by a cav, dying to the player you were fighting, or getting run over and shot by multiple archers with the arrow stun so you can't dodge anything.
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Paul, do something with run away archers. They 2 hit me and i can't catch them with my 8 athletics (i have 3 if and 15 str and +3 armor and gloves), it's not cool anymore. Decrease their speed so people with 5 athletics can catch archers in light armor and then i can deal with getting 2 hit killed - if they want run away they should throw away their bows/xbows.
Have you ever tried running at a Cav? ;)
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Most satisfying kill: Jumpstabbing/slashing cav as inf
Lamest death: Get backstabbed by a cav when you fight in melee as inf :rolleyes:
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I just hate dying to weapons of which I was sure that they couldnt reach me...
Also, dying right after a lagspike, when those 1-2 seconds without control bring me into a totally fucked up situation
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I suffer from those 1-3 sec microfreezes aswell, did not had problem with it before, but now :( Usually when i meet group of enemies or in other unconventional ocassions this happen, like, riding on a horse couched on enemy, then freeze, TK on my list, enemy walks free and shit...damn annyoing
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Then why does LLJK Heavy Cav bitch about them so often despite still topping the scoreboards -_-
Whiny no-skill NA cav... Says something when Torben comes over and steam rolls the team despite high ping...
Archers are unarguably the worst part of the game, and as the class's popularity soars with each patch, enthusiasm for the game and Strategus gets quite noticeably less and less.
Where small nerfs here and there might be given to Archery, the meta game consistently keeps Archers in a nearly untouchable position. Strategus is the absolute worst example. With nerfed armor and no heavy cav (or cav at all for that matter) archers have free reign to take the most sloped hill or unreachable roof and rain 2 shot death down on everyone with bolt action like accuracy and stopping power. Before this Strat went live, I heard chadz mention a rework of archery to make it less accurate but faster firing, however instead he just nerfed the fuck out of everything but bows and Strategus is, for all intents and purposes, completely dead. The dynamics of Strat battles that I've grown to love, the skirmishing, pushes, asserting cav superiority, has been nerfed away and replaced with battlefields where PD stacked archers scavenge over masterwork bows to ensure their sweet KDs as peasants charge with cardboard shields into the slaughter.
This overwhelming power advantage bleeds into our typical battle server brawls, and what do you know archery, because of the (mostly placebo) bodkins buff and Strategus, is more popular than ever before. I admit plenty of people make low content shit posting about "lol nerf ranged" but many players who understand balance and enjoyment the game have been vocal about their issues, mostly the kiting the playstyle promotes, to keep the game accessible and popular. I know archery has been continuously nerfed, but people find new ways to work in the system to really ruin the game's enjoyment for the other classes.
Very unsurprisingly here, Archers killing infantry is the most popular response, and probably causes the most people to rage quit cRPG, only so many times most players will quit the server in disgust at ranged spam until they just uninstall the game entirely.
Heavy Cav is certainly OP and requires merely a modicum of skill to outperform the other classes. Unfortunately you are gonna see nothing but heavy cav as the game continues along these lines because they are the closest thing we have as a counter to archery, even if PD stacked MW Bodkin MW Rus Bow archers can 3 shot a Cataphract.
In essence, I am trying to say to you Tears, "Deal With It." Also, Fallen archers are bad but their cav is worse, USA is the greatest country on earth and best clan in calradia, ranged spam is almost as trash as your posting, etc etc
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USA is the greatest country on earth and best clan in calradia
Double-LOL
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Then why does LLJK Heavy Cav bitch about them so often despite still topping the scoreboards -_-
Whiny no-skill NA cav... Says something when Torben comes over and steam rolls the team despite high ping...
yes because no other cav can do that oh wait
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
SUCK IT 8=====D~~~~
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Ez mode. Tank with lance on tank.
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Best mood killer for me is getting one shotted by arbalest before ever getting even close to melee. One bolt to toe and that's all it takes.
Imho the biggest problem for archers or cav being the problem, is all the open maps that are made for those two types to dominate. Most maps are pretty much just open plains with few houses for archers to climb on and to shoot miles away in every direction, cav circling around below and eating anything that still moves. There are only few maps that I can think of, that are pretty much always fun for weak melees like myself. One of them is just thick forest where it's sometimes hard to see banners, so it's rare to get one shotted across the map except by accident... more maps like that for diversity would be nice. :D
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"What is the worst about this, is that I cannot in my wildest imagination understand what makes it FUN for the cav player to ride around in circles and stab targets of opportunity."
NERF CAVV
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/raises hand, "yes, I too am a recovering former-Cav."
Cav is pretty much a wet dream for any noob. When I very first picked up this title I started out as Cav, and racked up ridiculous scores basically not even knowing how to play the game. Once I got tired of the complete lack of challenge to cav, I finally got rid of the horse and got into melee, and have never looked back since.
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I really and honestly don't find any death cheaper or lamer than any other.
The only time I feel slightly annoyed is if I die to my own stupidity, greed or mistakes. I like a challenge and I find it interesting as long as my opponent did something clever to get me.
A kill is a kill in my book, even if it is by a cav, archer, infantry(1H, 2H, Polearm, Shielder, Thrower, Hybrid), Horse Archer, Horse Xbowman...Backstab, ranged shot or bump. (I cannot seriously say I feel more happy to be stabbed in the face by someone with a 2H than I do being shot from 30m by an archer for instance.)
It is all the same shit when it comes down to it. :lol:
*Side note, limiting or removing ladders in battle would be cool...
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I wanted to check off all the options for awesome ways to kill because I've played as many classes with many alts. I have yet to make a pure xbowman or HA though. However, its fun to headshot someone and its fun to beat someone in an epic duel.
I also make lol alts. I know many people have. Eventually you just want to mess around even if the alt has almost no chance of actually doing well, like if you make an alt that only uses a torch. I think people get too frustrated with ranged and cav when they die to them. I hate being lanced from behind but it was my own fault for not paying attention, for not having battle awareness. I enjoy the game regardless.
Although being bumped by a friendly cav who either is a good cav and messed up or a noob that doesn't even know or care he did it is annoying as hell when you die because of their mistake.
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satisfying: 1shotting archers on unreachable roof with my arbalest or killing enemy inf/cav just before they close in on a backstab
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Personally im all about the hilarious kills and deaths, like the really heavy infantry man on a tiny bit of health who gets killed by a peasant with a club on a whiff.
Or people shooting each other at the same time. Or people hitting each other in midair then as they land they both die.
Things like that are awesome ways to die.
Basically if I can laugh at my death then to me it was completely worth it.
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I suffer from those 1-3 sec microfreezes aswell, did not had problem with it before, but now :( Usually when i meet group of enemies or in other unconventional ocassions this happen, like, riding on a horse couched on enemy, then freeze, TK on my list, enemy walks free and shit...damn annyoing
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,19037.new.html#new
ignore the smart guys and try this.