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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: a_bear_irl on November 25, 2011, 09:15:44 am

Title: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: a_bear_irl on November 25, 2011, 09:15:44 am
when the archer changes happened i realized immediately that they were the worst, but i didn't realize how they'd change the archer metagame. i haven't played in a little while (skyrim, SR, space station) but i'm going to assume little has changed since there hasn't been a balance patch since i last played.  here is a short list of why arrow type determining damage type is dumb

a) it happened without much internal rebalance of the bows meaning there is little to no reason to use anything other than a horn bow. before, there was some reason to use other bows - longbow if you wanted to kill tin-cans, rus bows if you wanted to kill peasants, horn if you wanted to kill peasants/annoy tincans/play more of a support role. now, the horn bow is so much better than the others there isn't much of a reason to use anything but it. some still use loomed longbows and some use rus but overwhelmingly, it's hornbow.

b) it fucked up melee. prepatch you couldn't really get into the main melee area without getting run off or killed. because the longbow was so slow you had to stay away from the fight or you'd be ineffective because you ended up spending 95% of your time drawing, getting interrupted, redrawing, repeat. the hornbow is so fast you can stand in nearly melee range and fire into the enemy line. in melee i find myslef worrying more about archers than the guy a foot away swinging an axe at me.

your typical archer sees melee players complaining about archers and assume they're getting shot standing around or something, if an experienced melee player gets shot they're either fighting another melee or trying to get to archers after winning a melee fight.

c) it made all arrows but bodkins worthless. ideally you'd have a few viable arrow choices, instead you have one. anyone not using bodkins is either new, dumb, or poor. the response to this is "it's balanced around strat" but strat itself is so fucked up it's going to be months before anyone has enough armor to warrant pierce damage of any kind. to be honest i see little point in balancing the main mod around strat until strat is more developed. balancing around what strat is now, "A", when the finished product is going to be "B" does not make sense.

d) most importantly - archery is not fun to play against. this is a game based around sweaty men killing each other with pointy pieces of metal. the archery system is straight out of the 90's, the last game i played with a cone of fire system for anything was planetside and that system sucked in 2003. archers can kite forever and can kill you incredibly quickly from far away and you can't do anything to respond. archers want their class to be able to take on melee players 1v1 and the devs have obliged, but that is retarded. it's like their class balance completely ignores their most important trait of "from far away". you get to hurt me without me being able to hurt you back that means everything else about you is shittier. that's how that shit would work normally. instead, archers are more dangerous and influential than melee players. melee is the weakest class type in a game about melee combat.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Cepeshi on November 25, 2011, 09:41:21 am
Hi,
it is signed,
i can only approved.

Tepes
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Digglez on November 25, 2011, 11:20:32 am
2 options to actually balance game

(1)  Revert archery dmg back to bow type, longbow being the only pierce dmg bow.

(2)  Update ranged armor penetration values to current melee armor soak/resist values
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 25, 2011, 11:31:39 am
I can tell you don't play an archer... Everything but bodkins are useless? Loled hard... So... Hard... Bodkins are a bit OP thpugh. I did prefere it when longbows were the only pierce, and rus and horns were best against light cavalry and light infantry and laying down hailstorms.

Point b nothing has changed... I still use my rus bow in the thick of melee prepatch and post patch, what are you even trying to say there?

In point a, the hornbow was always the best overall bow... The only time it ever dipped in popularity was when longbows were first given pierce... And even then it was still the most common bow...

Point d people have always said that, post patch or pre patch... Nothing changed. And last I checked Warband was supposed to represent a proper slice of medieval warfare, hence why there are not only two handers, but also polearsm, throwing, crossbows, horses, lances, bows and shields... This is not an anime fighting game where everyone two hands each other to death cuz it looks kewl.

Worthless QQ thread written by a melee is worthless...

Say, when did your mute wear off? Welcome back!

Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking ter
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on November 25, 2011, 11:48:01 am
Quote from: Digglez on November 25, 2011, 11:20:32 am
2 options to actually balance game

(1)  Revert archery dmg back to bow type, longbow being the only pierce dmg bow.

(2)  Update ranged armor penetration values to current melee armor soak/resist values

1. Devs said they wouldnt revert it back

2 Paul said it was fine and there was no reason to change it

conclusion : we're doomed to run around after fairies
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Smoothrich on November 25, 2011, 11:48:25 am
The problems are an ever increasing fast rate of fire archer population that are now so comfortable with their ability to kite, they scuttle just to the flanks or rear of melee engagements and just spam arrows into people.  Often, servers turn into horrible range fests where one team is 50 percent archers with imbalanced positioning on the map with high ground or a nice flank and just destroy the fun of the server.

What was good before the bodkins thing, even if the damage increase is more perceived then real, is that heavy hitters against melee went Long Bow, and faster types did up the Horn Bow.  Fast RoF bows helped take out light cav and the heavy archers, while the slow heavy archers took out the infantry.  It had nice internal balance, but thats gone and has been completely replaced with bows that fire at least twice as fast and with builds that allow every archer to have plenty of power strike and use OP shit like the 1 slot 2hander mace to stomp in melee.

Bows are the most expensive looms.  Archers dominate strategus.  The speed that they take out horses and infantry is silly with the high rate of fire pierce.  The ability to kite is extremely unpleasant to deal with.

Suggestions:  the missile speed nerf was a good start, but now everyone adjusted.  Recommend making the rate of fire of all bows much worse.

incentivize the Long Bow again, but not by merely straight buffing the Long Bow, because the Rus Bow is already  OP as shit.  The damage should prob be dropped a couple points on all bows or the effect of PD on damage lessed/effect on accuracy greatened.

Archer kiting:  this is probably the most frustrating shit to deal with and every cRPG player knows how it is.  You wreck your way through a melee line, woops there's 6 archers in the outskirts of the town, you have been focus fired and instantly killed.  Pursing and juking or shielding any 1 archer doesn't matter to all the rest.  So I think archers are too fast, and bow weights should be dramatically increased to remove the silly mobility foot archers have, unless they dedicate themselves to high AGI
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Tzar on November 25, 2011, 02:16:43 pm
cRPG is turning into native..............
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking ter
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on November 25, 2011, 03:24:00 pm

I love when people say be happy in crpg in native archery is far worser

i find that dumb, its like saying :

Iranians should be happy, its worse in north korea

Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Elmokki on November 25, 2011, 03:37:50 pm
Archery is so very broken right now. This stuff has been said already in the thread but let's go anyway!

1) Rate of fire
Long bow used to be the bow most used and since it's slow it didn't interrupt blocks and attacks or slow you down due to getting hit so often. Of course you aren't able to take that many arrows anyway, but it's frustrating when archer can shoot rather many shots at very short range when you try to approach him to kill him. As a side effect fast shooting means you can shoot very close to someone coming at you and then take the melee weapon before they are chopping you with their melee weapon. So very often in my light armor I've dodged and arrow and thought I surely can at least barely run 5 meters and whack the archer with a relatively long weapon before they get a second shot off. Well, too bad, the rate of fire is just too sick.

2) Kiting
My last gen was a shielder. It was absolutely useless against archers. Sure, I could block arrows coming from one direction fairly well, but there was no way I could ever kill an archer who wanted to run away. Sure, I only had 5 athletics, but you need something like 7 and fairly light armor to have a chance catching most archers, and for a shielder that's a rather low damage build sacrificing a lot for the speed. The steel pick builds probably have a shot at archer killing at least though!

The most ridiculous part of this kiting is just the running part. With my current character (Ath 6 at the moment, armored with kaftan and kettle helmet) I chased an archer for like 5 minutes. I had no chance of catching him. Sure, I was fast enough to not allow him shoot often, but he could get shots off once in a while.  If you can run as a footman from an another footman, you sure as hell should be unable to fight back while running for your life. At least if you aren't running from a tin can but only slightly more armored person than you.

Like Smoothrich suggested, slow down the bows. Even more than that, nerf the damage of bows other than longbow and maybe in turn buff the non-bodkin cut damage. If an archer can be a Legolas like now, at least make them sacrifice piercing damage. Bow weight increasing is also a very good idea.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Cup1d on November 25, 2011, 05:06:59 pm
Quote
The most ridiculous part of this kiting is just the running part. With my current character (Ath 6 at the moment, armored with kaftan and kettle helmet) I chased an archer for like 5 minutes. I had no chance of catching him. Sure, I was fast enough to not allow him shoot often, but he could get shots off once in a while.  If you can run as a footman from an another footman, you sure as hell should be unable to fight back while running for your life. At least if you aren't running from a tin can but only slightly more armored person than you.

If you wanna be fast and catch archers - make fast character.

something like this:

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 15
Agility: 24
Hit points: 50
Skills to attributes: 8
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 5
Shield: 5
Athletics: 8
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 5
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 146
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

Works good enough with longsword and fast shield. Use Boom-Zoom tactic at battlefield. You choose - will you fight this opponent or go for another.

P.S. This game not about classes (there are no one) but about good or bad builds, awareness, style of gameplay, positioning, tactics.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Xant on November 25, 2011, 05:12:06 pm
You'll hit like a bitch with that build, plus 5 shield skill and a fast(i.e small) shield means you can be shot in the legs and head.

A 15-24 build with steelpick and 8 shield and athletics is better, but like... you have a chance of catching archers, you have no HP so two or more archers = death, not much punch in melee etc
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Blondin on November 25, 2011, 05:22:02 pm
Completly agree with OP, once again, the problem is the number of archer, because it's easy mod.

Even before january patch when archer could wear heavy armor it was not that pew pew madness, and we were crying at that time, now, i just don't play anymore in battles.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: a_bear_irl on November 25, 2011, 08:51:08 pm
Quote from: Tears of Destiny on November 25, 2011, 11:31:39 am
I can tell you don't play an archer... Everything but bodkins are useless? Loled hard... So... Hard... Bodkins are a bit OP thpugh. I did prefere it when longbows were the only pierce, and rus and horns were best against light cavalry and light infantry and laying down hailstorms.

Point b nothing has changed... I still use my rus bow in the thick of melee prepatch and post patch, what are you even trying to say there?

In point a, the hornbow was always the best overall bow... The only time it ever dipped in popularity was when longbows were first given pierce... And even then it was still the most common bow...

Point d people have always said that, post patch or pre patch... Nothing changed. And last I checked Warband was supposed to represent a proper slice of medieval warfare, hence why there are not only two handers, but also polearsm, throwing, crossbows, horses, lances, bows and shields... This is not an anime fighting game where everyone two hands each other to death cuz it looks kewl.

Worthless QQ thread written by a melee is worthless...

Say, when did your mute wear off? Welcome back!

if you use anything but bodkins you are dumb or have a non-bodkin arrow loom you haven't been able to turn into a bodkin loom. no not-terrible archer uses anything but bodkins. prepatch the hornbow was not the most common bow, it was longbow by far. you had some people (mostly fallen iirc) doing the kiting thing that is common now but they were much less effective because they could only do cut.

you hardly play and are bad and i don't care how you play in any case, the archer norm now is stand just behind melee with a hornbow and bodkins. your use of a non-horn bow doesn't change that.

i also don't care about realism, if we were going for realism the only thing that would pierce plate/scale armor would be a crossbow. if we were going for realism 5% of the battlefield would be in plate and 95% would be peasants. ~*~ my realism ~*~ means nothing

in short, go away you're dumb and nobody likes you
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: a_bear_irl on November 25, 2011, 08:53:13 pm
Quote from: Cup1d on November 25, 2011, 05:06:59 pm
If you wanna be fast and catch archers - make fast character.

something like this:
terrible build

Works good enough with longsword and fast shield. Use Boom-Zoom tactic at battlefield. You choose - will you fight this opponent or go for another.

P.S. This game not about classes (there are no one) but about good or bad builds, awareness, style of gameplay, positioning, tactics.

that's the worst build i've ever seen, all of the shields weigh too much for you to have a hope of catching archers even if you somehow got up to 10 ath and some archer builds now are going to have equivalent IF/PS
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Lech on November 25, 2011, 08:56:21 pm
Quote from: Xant on November 25, 2011, 05:12:06 pm
You'll hit like a bitch with that build, plus 5 shield skill and a fast(i.e small) shield means you can be shot in the legs and head.

A 15-24 build with steelpick and 8 shield and athletics is better, but like... you have a chance of catching archers, you have no HP so two or more archers = death, not much punch in melee etc

I use ironflesh on 15-24, 2 points (instead of weapon master). 54 hit points with 60 body armor is not that bad.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Thomek on November 25, 2011, 10:03:10 pm
It's what I always said.

Prime reasons for always having the nerf archers button ready is not balance, but amount of Archers. If it increases above a threshold it destroys the gameplay.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Chasey on November 25, 2011, 10:08:37 pm
Quote from: Thomek on November 25, 2011, 10:03:10 pm
It's what I always said.

Prime reasons for always having the nerf archers button ready is not balance, but amount of Archers. If it increases above a threshold it destroys the gameplay.

^
This, its not that archery is seriously OP its the amount of archers there  is that is making them such a problem
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: a_bear_irl on November 25, 2011, 10:11:02 pm
well, i'd say archery being broken like it is currently is the root cause of the number of archers. people get 3shot in plate -> get mad -> say "i'm gonna do an archer gen" -> repeat
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Gnjus on November 25, 2011, 10:11:06 pm
Quote from: Blondin on November 25, 2011, 05:22:02 pm
the problem is the number of archer, because it's easy mod.

Quote from: Thomek on November 25, 2011, 10:03:10 pm
Prime reasons for always having the nerf archers button ready is not balance, but amount of Archers. If it increases above a threshold it destroys the gameplay.


These things have been said ages ago and no one cared back then so why should they care now when they finally got what they wanted - best medieval fantasy shooter out there ? So many newer games with awesome graphics and all of the other improvements still can't beat this.......
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Elmokki on November 26, 2011, 12:25:46 am
Having to go to a 15-24 build or something with even more agility AND having a shield to be able to catch an archer is ridiculous. It's a VERY specialized build, especially if it's not steel pick + shielder.

To effectively counter archers you need to have a ridiculously specialized build. There is no other role in the game with the same issue. Horse archers and horse crossbows might be close, but they are far more niche builds in performance too and ranged can shoot down non-armored horses and fast cavalry can lance down slow armored horses fairly easily.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Siiem on November 26, 2011, 06:27:58 am
Quote from: Digglez on November 25, 2011, 11:20:32 am
(2)  Update ranged armor penetration values to current melee armor soak/resist values

And nerf armour looms!
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Siboire on November 26, 2011, 09:14:33 am
Devs will wake up only when 99,99% of servers will be noobs pewpewing and melee (real) fighters will have left cRPG. The mod is dying fast: strat is shit, battle server are heavy cavs (no upkeep exploit)/longspear/archer fests, and siege server have shitty (most of the times) unbalanced maps.

GG

-off playing skyrim and BF3 for a while...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: B3RS3RK on November 26, 2011, 01:47:42 pm
Quote
To effectively counter archers you need to have a ridiculously specialized build. There is no other role in the game with the same issue. Horse archers and horse crossbows might be close, but they are far more niche builds in performance too and ranged can shoot down non-armored horses and fast cavalry can lance down slow armored horses fairly easily.

I catch them just fine with 18/21.Just dont wear heavy armor
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Gnjus on November 26, 2011, 01:53:20 pm
Quote from: B3RS3RK on November 26, 2011, 01:47:42 pm
I catch them just fine with 18/21.Just dont wear heavy armor

If you weren't a former Bandit I'd give you an epic gnjuspalm right now.....one that might even offend you.  :wink:
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: B3RS3RK on November 26, 2011, 01:59:57 pm
:(

I was just saying, if you WANT to catch Archers, which are mostly light armored with at least 6 athletics, you need to either put on very light armor or do a 15/24 build.Or rely on me to take out those friendly archers :D

Although I think shooting while moving should slow archers down EXTREMELY, like walking up the steepest hill ever.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: MaHuD on November 26, 2011, 02:09:23 pm
Kill looms and archery is fine.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Gnjus on November 26, 2011, 02:11:51 pm
Quote from: MaHuD on November 26, 2011, 02:09:23 pm
Kill looms and archery is fine.

I'd rather they kill all the archers IRL, then archery will be 100% fine.  :wink:
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: B3RS3RK on November 26, 2011, 02:13:38 pm
At least kill 75% so we can have balanced teams.Not too many archers in each one :D
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 26, 2011, 03:49:04 pm
Archers look good because there should be alot more shielders so people dont get butchered by arrows.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Torp on November 26, 2011, 04:02:11 pm
The biggest problem is your 'D' - archery ruins the fun in many cases.
Of course archers shoukld help and interrupt fights, support melee and stuff, but it's simply too much. Especially because the archers often survive so in the final phase of a pretty even battle, one team just gets shot over and over again with noting to do about it, which is in no way fun.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: BADPLAYERold on November 26, 2011, 04:43:31 pm
Also, Archers have no natural counter except other archers. Most people assume the counter to Archery is Cavalry but that couldn't be further from the truth, I have played cavalry for a long time and trust me when I say that archers beat Light Cavalry 1v1 100% of the time assuming they are of the same skill. The only way Light Cav can beat archers is by stabbing them from behind and if that isn't a 1hit kill (Which alot of the time now it isn't) you just have to run away and hope the archer doesn't shoot your horse taking off a huge amount of it's health (Rounceys can be 2shot, Coursers 3shot, Destriers 3-4 shot, not taking into account speed bonus of course, if you charge right into the archer and he manages to shoot you it will do alot more damage).

Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Arrowblood on November 26, 2011, 04:56:52 pm
i havent read all this here, but dont kill my longbow.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 26, 2011, 05:02:59 pm
I blame bodkins for a bit of this. In some ways it makes a lot of sense from a technical perspective, perfect sense really, to have arrow types dictate bow damage, but from a game balance perspective it did not work out smoothly (in my glorious opinion mind you). Returning Long Bow to pierce would make me happy, this way the heavier armours feel more proper... (And for the love of all that is holy, leave the Rus Bow cut!)

Though there is an insane amount of heavy cav spam for NA servers (Unlike EU where there is only a few... What is up with that?), last night out of 50-ish there was I think a dozen heavy cav?. So in some ways I am a little glad for so many bodkins, but still... Unfair is Unfair.
Next problem, and in my eyes the main problem, is that balance sometimes puts a discrepancy of classes on one side. Having one side have a cavalry or archer superiority by a noticeable amount is not very fun, though I am not sure of the cRPG team can find a way to fix this issue.
Pew Pew Pew.
Last point (and some of you may not want to hear this) is that if you allow archers to wear heavier armor, this might encourage a few to wear it and thus be substantially easier to catch (yes they will take more hits but at least you can get to the point to lock them silly). I admit I am not sure how good of an idea this is though, it is a double-edged sword so to speak.
Just remember that when nerfing something, don't do a shotgun approach and blast everything. Instead of tweak one or two select things and have it gently settle down to a good point. Demanding Overnerfing because you as a player are overreacting is just sad.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: BADPLAYERold on November 26, 2011, 05:16:32 pm
Quote from: Tears of Destiny on November 26, 2011, 05:02:59 pm
Though there is an insane amount of heavy cav spam for NA servers (Unlike EU where there is only a few... What is up with that?), last night out of 50-ish there was I think a dozen heavy cav?. So in some ways I am a little glad for so many bodkins, but still... Unfair is Unfair.

That is because people go cavalry to kill archers, realise light cavalry are useless for that and then start using the overpowered heavy horses.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Kophka on November 26, 2011, 05:39:02 pm
My crazy suggestion of the week is that we stack a shit-ton of random plains maps into the server rotation. Then cavalry actually CAN be a counter to ranged, while ranged can be a counter to shieldless infantry, and polearms (and pole-swords, lol)  can continue being a counter to cav. Right now, the only counter to ranged is range, since they can shoot from safety with out being in danger until the round is nearly done.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 26, 2011, 06:07:47 pm
I really enjoy the random plains maps in all honesty. I notice that even randomers stick together after the first round and really make good team work with one another.

Random Hilly Plains though are the devil... Too much camping.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: B3RS3RK on November 26, 2011, 06:14:41 pm
Quote from: Kophka on November 26, 2011, 05:39:02 pm
My crazy suggestion of the week is that we stack a shit-ton of random plains maps into the server rotation. Then cavalry actually CAN be a counter to ranged, while ranged can be a counter to shieldless infantry, and polearms (and pole-swords, lol)  can continue being a counter to cav. Right now, the only counter to ranged is range, since they can shoot from safety with out being in danger until the round is nearly done.

Dude you crazy?

Random Plains always mean that half of the Teams consist of Cavalry, leaving the Infantry basically no chance.

or even worse, one team with a lot of cav and one with almost none.Guess who will win,
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: BADPLAYERold on November 26, 2011, 06:30:32 pm
Quote from: Kophka on November 26, 2011, 05:39:02 pm
My crazy suggestion of the week is that we stack a shit-ton of random plains maps into the server rotation. Then cavalry actually CAN be a counter to ranged, while ranged can be a counter to shieldless infantry, and polearms (and pole-swords, lol)  can continue being a counter to cav. Right now, the only counter to ranged is range, since they can shoot from safety with out being in danger until the round is nearly done.

Random plains maps are hilariously good for archers, they have a COMPLETE view of the map and can shoot at anyone, i'm not saying they are bad for cavalry but if your goal is to make cavalry better against archers this wouldn't fufill it. All the archers do is group together in 1 place making it impossible for cavalry to get near without being shot to pieces.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Gheritarish le Loki on November 26, 2011, 06:31:30 pm
Same problem that one year ago : numbers of archer, that's all...
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: B3RS3RK on November 26, 2011, 06:35:46 pm
They are like roaches, no matter what you do to them, the population increases.

If we implemented Nuclear bombs into cRPG Archers would be the only one surviving them.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Kophka on November 26, 2011, 06:51:27 pm
Quote from: Tears of Destiny on November 26, 2011, 06:07:47 pm
I really enjoy the random plains maps in all honesty. I notice that even randomers stick together after the first round and really make good team work with one another.

Random Hilly Plains though are the devil... Too much camping.

Exactly. Every build has it's place in a random plains map. No one is useless.

Quote from: B3RS3RK on November 26, 2011, 06:14:41 pm
Dude you crazy?

Random Plains always mean that half of the Teams consist of Cavalry, leaving the Infantry basically no chance.

or even worse, one team with a lot of cav and one with almost none.Guess who will win,

This is completely wrong. Guess what kills cavalry? Ranged, Polearms, long 2 handers, other cavalry. How does infantry have no chance against cav? All they have to do is not scatter like ants when you kick the ant-hill. I've watched infantry dominate on random plains, it's pretty cool to see. I've also seen ranged and cavalry dominate on them. Just depends on what the team decides to do or not do.

Quote from: BADPLAYER on November 26, 2011, 06:30:32 pm
Random plains maps are hilariously good for archers, they have a COMPLETE view of the map and can shoot at anyone, i'm not saying they are bad for cavalry but if your goal is to make cavalry better against archers this wouldn't fufill it. All the archers do is group together in 1 place making it impossible for cavalry to get near without being shot to pieces.

It's good for everyone that's on a team that is playing together to win. Shieldless people follow the shields until it's time to strike, the cavalry screen against cav, polearms ward off the ones that get through, ranged takes down stray cav and other range, and cavalry provides a distraction while infantry maneuver. Sounds like a battle to me. :D
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Paul on November 26, 2011, 06:56:29 pm
It's only a battle if sweaty men with long 2 handed weapons fight each other, undisturbed by ranged or cavalry.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Kalam on November 26, 2011, 07:01:32 pm
I've always had a personal vendetta against archers. Back in the day, I did it by backstabbing them and dodging arrows. These days, I handle it with 8 shield and 8 athletics. Still, I rarely two-shot them with an italian sword stab to the head from behind, and they tend to run away from me despite the fact that I have more athletics and wear a gambeson + padded coif. It's the weight of the shield that's the issue here, and as always, you can't really advance on an archer if he's got more ranged friends ready to shoot you in the side. I could use the buckler, but they tend to just shoot my feet.

I'm not saying that playing an archer is easier, but they are definitely playing a different game here. Individual balance is fine at the moment, but the group dynamics are annoying. All those heavy cavalry and all those archers make it ridiculous to try and fight alongside a pubbie team.

This is also one of the reasons you see nothing but round shields (they offer better protection vs. projectiles for some reason) out there- but that's another issue.

tl;dr
There are lots of archers. Do something to make them run more slowly without +7 athletics and make several of the bows fulfill different roles.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Xant on November 26, 2011, 07:03:09 pm
Quote from: Paul on November 26, 2011, 06:56:29 pm
It's only a battle if sweaty men with long 2 handed weapons fight each other, undisturbed by ranged or cavalry.

Sweaty oiled men.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Kafein on November 26, 2011, 08:07:02 pm
Quote from: BADPLAYER on November 26, 2011, 04:43:31 pm
Also, Archers have no natural counter except other archers. Most people assume the counter to Archery is Cavalry but that couldn't be further from the truth, I have played cavalry for a long time and trust me when I say that archers beat Light Cavalry 1v1 100% of the time assuming they are of the same skill. The only way Light Cav can beat archers is by stabbing them from behind and if that isn't a 1hit kill (Which alot of the time now it isn't) you just have to run away and hope the archer doesn't shoot your horse taking off a huge amount of it's health (Rounceys can be 2shot, Coursers 3shot, Destriers 3-4 shot, not taking into account speed bonus of course, if you charge right into the archer and he manages to shoot you it will do alot more damage).

This.


Quote from: Kophka on November 26, 2011, 05:39:02 pm
My crazy suggestion of the week is that we stack a shit-ton of random plains maps into the server rotation. Then cavalry actually CAN be a counter to ranged, while ranged can be a counter to shieldless infantry, and polearms (and pole-swords, lol)  can continue being a counter to cav. Right now, the only counter to ranged is range, since they can shoot from safety with out being in danger until the round is nearly done.


Although I absolutely love random plains, it doesn't help cav against archers at all. Maybe against inf but I think the inf already are the most struggling on open plains. Even if the map is flawlessly flat, it's very hard to kill archers as cav when there's nothing to hide behind. Cav are ninja, and therefore are paradoxically advantaged by buildings (when the enemy isn't over them ofc.), as long as there isn't a single bump in the ground. When the map isn't flat, the archers just camp on a hill and cav can't do anything (when a horse has to go up or down a 5° slope, he stops just like in real life).


The only counter to archers are shielders. But the main problem with shields is that the so called "forcefield" has been "fixed" long ago and therefore arrows can go through many shields easily. You have to spend at least 6 points in shield to get your real shield coverage. And even with 6, some shields (board and heather mainly) still don't match with the model. However, some other shields (autoblock bucklers for example) still have a ridiculous force field.
Furthermore, a shield slows you down a lot. So it's either being a turtle or hitting like a sissy. Even if you are a sissy and able to catch archers (except when there are more than one of them, in that case you are shot in the back and dead), you aren't very likely to escape the enemy inf or cav. Shielders are very weak against cav, especially the str shielders that take the shortest route and might not die in the main clash.

So yeah, shielders are the only non-ranged counter to ranged, but they are very weak. Even worse, they do a lot better against infantry than against archers. 1h do the fastest feints and are just sub-par compared to most 2h and polearms.


The main balance problem is that infantry is the easiest prey for literaly any class, including itself.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: a_bear_irl on November 26, 2011, 08:22:45 pm
Quote from: Paul on November 26, 2011, 06:56:29 pm
It's only a battle if sweaty men with long 2 handed weapons fight each other, undisturbed by ranged or cavalry.

surely you see an issue with archers being more dangerous than melee units up close
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Dezilagel on November 26, 2011, 08:25:15 pm
Quote from: a_bear_irl on November 26, 2011, 08:22:45 pm
surely you see an issue with archers being more dangerous than melee units up close

Yep, that's weird. Even when I tried shielder I still feared archers more then melee. When fighting.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 26, 2011, 08:28:29 pm
Quote from: Dezilagel on November 26, 2011, 08:25:15 pm
Yep, that's weird. Even when I tried shielder I still feared archers more then melee. When fighting.
Weird... as my shielder I don't mind archers at all... maybe it is because I spend so much time as an archer I know what they can or can not do... Well... Actually in truth my Huscarl shielder does not fear archers, my lulzy 4 shield skill shielder actually has real issues against archers unless I am absolutely on my toes. But my real shielder is comfortable against everything but hiltslashing two handers, or certain cav.

Pew Pew Pew!
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Dezilagel on November 26, 2011, 10:00:57 pm
Quote from: Tears of Destiny on November 26, 2011, 08:28:29 pm
Weird... as my shielder I don't mind archers at all... maybe it is because I spend so much time as an archer I know what they can or can not do... Well... Actually in truth my Huscarl shielder does not fear archers, my lulzy 4 shield skill shielder actually has real issues against archers unless I am absolutely on my toes. But my real shielder is comfortable against everything but hiltslashing two handers, or certain cav.

Pew Pew Pew!

Aah, but then you have no idea just how comfortable I am in melee  :twisted:

Seriously though, it's because when they launch stunning arrows of massive damage (thx to extra_penetration), they just give you no options. Either you chase them in which case they just run away and you get slashed in the back or you continue fighting in which case they stun you to death.

Well sometimes they hit their teammate instead but then you just feel sorry for your opponent for dying in such a lame way.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Teeth on November 26, 2011, 11:14:29 pm
What is it with archery that everyone wants to be one, it is not really that easy a class, it's upkeep heavy, still further nerfing is required cause of the sheer amount of archers. Individually archery isn't OP. But if 30% of the server is archer it is horrifying.

You play a game with an outstanding melee system, and there you go shoot stuff, like in every other fucking game. What the hell?
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 26, 2011, 11:21:31 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on November 26, 2011, 11:14:29 pm
You play a game with an outstanding melee system, and there you go shoot stuff, like in every other fucking game. What the hell?

Well... I do play a lot of melee (have played more melee then range to be honest), but this is the only online game with a nice archery system that does not suck.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: PieParadox on November 26, 2011, 11:29:10 pm
I like being an archer except when there are other archers or crossbowmen. Then sometimes I die.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Lech on November 27, 2011, 01:25:00 am
Quote from: Tears of Destiny on November 26, 2011, 11:21:31 pm
Well... I do play a lot of melee (have played more melee then range to be honest), but this is the only online game with a nice archery system that does not suck.

Well, you have the point.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Overdriven on November 27, 2011, 03:33:57 am
Lol melee complaining as usual.

Dumb thread.

Fact is, bodkins aren't really that more lethal than my barbs. I maybe have to use 1 arrow more with barbs than I do with bodkins. Ooooo big deal. On both my foot archer and horse archer char I use barbed arrows. More ammo to fire at you for FAR cheaper and the damage difference is so insignificant I don't really notice the difference in the number of arrows it takes to kill you when I'm in the middle of a game and there's certainly no difference in the number of kills I get either way.

The only time bodkins are useful is against the very highest tier armour, because barbs bounce. But against the vast majority they really aren't needed or matter that much.

Horn bows have always been the most popular bow even before the arrow determining damage.

Archers really aren't that lethal. Melee just aren't happy unless cav/ranged are given a very background roll and told to watch a (not so) epic duel between 2 nub melee guys.

Fact is, the only reason you guys notice archers atm is because there are a lot of them. Does that mean they should be changed? Not at all. There are several theories as to why there are so many archers atm *cough* strat mains *cough* but the fact is archers actually get relatively few kills in comparison to cav/melee except for the best archers. It's just there are a lot of them to annoy you.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: a_bear_irl on November 27, 2011, 08:38:28 am
the only people arguing the changes make sense are archers

Quote
bodkins aren't really that more lethal than my barbs


nope bodkins kill about twice as quickly as the other arrows (that is, in half the arrows)

Quote
The only time bodkins are useful is against the very highest tier armour, because barbs bounce

flat out wrong

Quote
Horn bows have always been the most popular bow even before the arrow determining damage.
also wrong

Quote
Archers really aren't that lethal
a hornbow archer with bodkins and a decent build will kill me in less hits than pretty much all cut weapons

Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Elmokki on November 27, 2011, 11:30:29 am
I switched AWAY from 1h + shield since all it did was possibly save me from arrows coming from one direction. 2h/polearm build has to avoid archers more, but what does it matter since it's not like the shield build could do anything to archers either. Better to just avoid them regardless of your melee build :D

Seriously, saying that archers are fine when people start bringing more shields is bullshit. You need to slow down archers and give shields larger coverage for that to help.

Next gen I think I'll make a thrower if I can figure out a satisfying enough build.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Dezilagel on November 27, 2011, 01:07:58 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on November 27, 2011, 03:33:57 am

IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE YOU ARE A HORRIBLE MELEE PLAYER.

ALSO: HAVE YOU SEEN THE STATS FOR DAMAGE TYPE ARMOR PENETRATION WHEN IT COMES TO ARROWS? (WELL, IF YOU HAD YOU WOULDN'T POST SUCH STUPIDITY AS "BODKINS ARE USELESS).

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Teeth on November 27, 2011, 01:15:12 pm
You would do well not to listen to Overdriven in any balance discussion. First of all half his statements are untrue and make no sense, he is also completely biased. I must confess I am too, but atleast I try to get my facts right.

Give ranged the same armour penetration values as melee, or the other way around. As Dezilagel has perfectly pointed out in the past. Armour is vastly more effective versus melee, which has lead to the sluggish ten hit combat we have nowadays. Ranged ignores a ton more armour than melee, while ranged is the main reason I clad myself in heavy armour.

Which doesn't make sense in my opinion, make armour equal vs ranged and melee.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Overdriven on November 27, 2011, 01:21:57 pm
Quote from: a_bear_irl on November 27, 2011, 08:38:28 am
the only people arguing the changes make sense are archers
 

nope bodkins kill about twice as quickly as the other arrows (that is, in half the arrows)

flat out wrong
also wrong
a hornbow archer with bodkins and a decent build will kill me in less hits than pretty much all cut weapons

Exactly...which is the way it was always going to be. Same thing happened with cav :rolleyes:

It largely depends on who you are shooting. Light armoured people really don't die any faster with bodkins. You'll notice it very slightly against medium armour, but you'll only REALLY notice it when you're shooting against heavies. I don't care if you insist they kill twice as quickly, because they definitely don't against the vast majority of targets. When it comes to medium armour, I would have to use 4 arrows instead of 5 with bodkins. I used them for a good amount of time and they didn't hurt as much as you'd think, certainly not enough to out weigh the cost and lack of ammo. And when it comes to lighter armour they aren't worth it.

As for the Horn Bow. Not wrong. Horn bows have been the most popular bow for a while since before the change was made. You see always see floods of them. Far more than long bows or war bows.

Quote from: SgtTeeh on November 27, 2011, 01:15:12 pm
You would do well not to listen to Overdriven in any balance discussion. First of all half his statements are untrue and make no sense, he is also completely biased. I must confess I am too, but atleast I try to get my facts right.

Give ranged the same armour penetration values as melee, or the other way around. As Dezilagel has perfectly pointed out in the past. Armour is vastly more effective versus melee, which has lead to the sluggish ten hit combat we have nowadays. Ranged ignores a ton more armour than melee, while ranged is the main reason I clad myself in heavy armour.

Which doesn't make sense in my opinion, make armour equal vs ranged and melee.

Hmm yes you always come out with correct, factual statements  :rolleyes:

I still say that archers are only annoying because there are a lot of them. When I play my horse archer they are a pain in the arse for me to. But I think the problem is in the number of them rather than in the way they work. And like I said, I think there are other reasons for that.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Lech on November 27, 2011, 01:51:48 pm
They can run away against melee, this is not right. Increase weight of bows and arrows. I can even don't mind about outrageous damage they deal, but fact that they can run away from infantry and shoot the horses make them only vulnerable to other ranged, which leads to ranged spam that is obvious for everyone that play the game and isn't retarded.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Teeth on November 27, 2011, 02:14:51 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on November 27, 2011, 01:21:57 pm
As for the Horn Bow. Not wrong. Horn bows have been the most popular bow for a while since before the change was made. You see always see floods of them. Far more than long bows or war bows.
This is just not true, before the patch it was warbow and a few chose the slow pierce of the longbow. Barely any strongbows at all.

Quote from: Overdriven on November 27, 2011, 01:21:57 pm
I still say that archers are only annoying because there are a lot of them. When I play my horse archer they are a pain in the arse for me to. But I think the problem is in the number of them rather than in the way they work. And like I said, I think there are other reasons for that.
I actually agree with you on this, archery is very popular for some reason. Individually they are not overpowered, the problem is there are a lot of them. Currently it is not all that bad, archery is fine as soon as ladders are removed from battle and some maps are fixed to disencourage roofcamping.

But, buffing archery slightly will not make the individual archer OP, but will increase the number of archers to game breaking levels. Archery needs to be underpowered to prevent that there are too much archers. Stop liking archery and it might get buffed.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking ter
Post by: Arrowblood on November 27, 2011, 02:30:35 pm
I still say that we have more elite archers than elite melee. Invite some rl friends, give them some mw melee stuff and the problem is solved .                                                                                                                                     Ok not really .  Give the pierce dmg to the bodkins if its a +2 . Trust me this will reduce the archer population for some month.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Tzar on November 27, 2011, 05:22:17 pm
Before archers topping the score board was rare since it required aimed shots to leg and head... watch jambi play an see how he works he did just fine before the buff...

Now every1 can do it you just gotta spam arrows and hit your target 3 or 2 times and voila your a pro archer u dont even have to aim for legs or head with bodkins...

Thus we now have a shitload of archers since its easy to play the class an top the scoreboard....

Its unavoidable unless they make archers support classes again an not a medieval rambo class as we have now....


Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: MrShine on November 27, 2011, 08:00:51 pm
To quote myself: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,18247.msg260709.html#msg260709

"Bodkins will kill tin cans in about 5 or 6 hits on the average.
Bodkins will kill mid-heavy troops in about 4 hits on the average.
Bodkins will kill lighter troops in about 2-3 hits on the average."

^ that's with a MW horn bow and MW bodkins, and 5 PD.  That's the basic complaint, right?  The fast shooting horn bow?  Well mine was fully masterworked, and granted I only had 5 powerdraw for this test this probably represents standard hornbow/bodkin users with 6 (maybe 7 ) PD scenarios.  Are there archers who do more damage than me?  Of course.  But on the average I doubt things will change very much. 


I've had very few problems with archers in my last two gens (2H and this one Polearm).  Last gen I put 1 point into shield skill so I could bust out a plain board shield if the enemy team was flush with archers, this gen I skipped it entirely.  Pick your battles and be aware of your surroundings and archers aren't nearly as much of a problem.

If you're bee-lining it for GLORIOUS MELEE COMBAT and are bitching about getting shot by the enemy archers who have an easy shot that's your fault.  If you're really concerned about it I'm going to say what everyone says: get some damn shield skill.  Honestly even with a crappy plain board shield archers would simply refuse to shoot at me when I had it out and would focus squishier targets. 

TLDR- adapt your playstyle
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Taggerung on November 30, 2011, 08:37:39 am
Quote from: Tzar on November 27, 2011, 05:22:17 pm
Before archers topping the score board was rare since it required aimed shots to leg and head... watch jambi play an see how he works he did just fine before the buff...

Now every1 can do it you just gotta spam arrows and hit your target 3 or 2 times and voila your a pro archer u dont even have to aim for legs or head with bodkins...

Thus we now have a shitload of archers since its easy to play the class an top the scoreboard....

Its unavoidable unless they make archers support classes again an not a medieval rambo class as we have now....

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Konrax on November 30, 2011, 08:07:39 pm
Maybe shields are looking a little more useful now?
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on December 01, 2011, 06:29:36 pm
Nerf the skill points available to power draw. Double the req for bows, then archers can't be inert hybrids. Or double the agi requirment per pd. So, 6 agi per pd. They tried this with cav and really put a hamper on skill point allocation.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Paul on December 01, 2011, 06:34:11 pm
Quote from: Spa_geh_tea on December 01, 2011, 06:29:36 pm
Nerf the skill points available to power draw. Double the req for bows, then archers can't be inert hybrids. Or double the agi requirment per pd. So, 6 agi per pd. They tried this with cav and really put a hamper on skill point allocation.

Ye, agi per pd... Maybe try playing an archer before suggesting stuff? Also, archers already have the least hybrid ability. Probably that's even part of the problem.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: mandible/splinteryourjaw on December 01, 2011, 08:09:39 pm
Quote from: Paul on December 01, 2011, 06:34:11 pm
Ye, agi per pd... Maybe try playing an archer before suggesting stuff? Also, archers already have the least hybrid ability. Probably that's even part of the problem.

This

to be effective an archer has very little choice in point allocation.

Horn bows were and still are the most popular (with longbow reaching that level for a short time and the rus bow enjoying some success now)
why: because of the amount of ammo you can carry:  maybe melee should be limited to 15 swings per slot.

Say what you want about bodkins vs others...I personally carry a quiver of bodkins early too shoot the heavier armored guys/horses and then fill my slots with reg arrows (sometimes tartars.)  Sometimes, when I'm being greedy and looking to just get kills, I will fill all my slots with tartars NOT BODKINS!!!  I find the cut damage does what I want...and its just plain ignorant to think a bow should determine damage type, though you are correct when you say the longbow should be the most powerful  (ooohhh look it is...hhhhhhmmmmmmmm!)

Archers are simply  more noticeable because they hit you when you don't expect it and YOU CAN"T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT!!!  and that makes you angry.  Just remember you were shot by that archer because of a battlefield error you made, and that makes you angrier.  Shocktroopers, guerillas, 2nd line offence are what archers are and you shouldn't be able to reach them w/o killing all the melee between.

If you want to complain about things that seem absurd then complain about tincans jumping 8 ft in the air to hack a knight off his horse, or cav climbling a ladder and walking rooftops killing archers, or facehugging a polearmer who is repeatedly stabbing you with the end of his pole (which is 6ft behind you.)  Archers are doing what they are built to do.

If you think archery is easy then try it,  I've did the others and I like the constant awareness, thinking, plotting, planning, running for a specific angle, just constant readjusting you have to do to stay alive in archery.  If an archer lets his guard down for one second he is dead.  Melee you just run in with your guard down and spam most of the time, though some will try to out-think the other player, most run in and spam.   yyyeeee-hhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwww now thats what I call fun.  I bet cav use/cover the biggest part of the field, followed by archers, and then way behind you will find the straight line running melee players (TTHHHWWAACCCKKK!!!   eeewww looks like one less melee player!)
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Dezilagel on December 01, 2011, 09:07:00 pm
Quote from: mandible/splinteryourjaw on December 01, 2011, 08:09:39 pm
(click to show/hide)

Oh look, it's that guy again.

(click to show/hide)

Not going to bother with making a proper reply, but I made some diagrams to help explain how to do that "running for a specific angle" thing:

(click to show/hide)


Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: mandible/splinteryourjaw on December 01, 2011, 09:54:52 pm
OHHH poor thang!!!  What made poor little Dezi (http://cdn.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/child-drawing.jpg) do this (http://cdn.madamenoire.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/slide-424.jpg) to herself.

Could it be:  ? (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yCgDDY54Y-8/Tfwp0vhUJjI/AAAAAAAAASo/XaFs5d2Xt1o/s1600/practce.png)
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Lech on December 01, 2011, 10:02:32 pm
I got killed several times by just BODY 2 arrows from archermy old friends. I have lordly Heraldic Mail with Tabard and Lordly Mail Mittens. Something is wrong with archery. I got one hit killed in the body  by xbow.

Seriously, nerf ranged.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Jarlek on December 01, 2011, 10:52:24 pm
Quote from: Lech on December 01, 2011, 10:02:32 pm
I got killed several times by just BODY 2 arrows from archermy old friends. I have lordly Heraldic Mail with Tabard and Lordly Mail Mittens. Something is wrong with archery. I got one hit killed in the body  by xbow.

Seriously, nerf ranged.
Lech. Aren't you a high athl with a light and fast shield? What should be one of the BEST builds to kill archers? Look, it's not 2hs that whine about ranged in this thread. It is EVERYONE, 2h, pikemen, hoplites, shielders and agi shielders. Archery is BS right now.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Tzar on December 01, 2011, 11:00:29 pm
Buuu!! buU!!!! Nerf range plOx!!!

Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Lech on December 02, 2011, 12:09:20 am
Quote from: Zapper on December 01, 2011, 10:52:24 pm
Lech. Aren't you a high athl with a light and fast shield? What should be one of the BEST builds to kill archers? Look, it's not 2hs that whine about ranged in this thread. It is EVERYONE, 2h, pikemen, hoplites, shielders and agi shielders. Archery is BS right now.

15-24, and light shield. It's not good for archer hunting, they can still run away from me freely even with just 18 agi like bagge. Problem is, shield and 1h affect movement a lot, while bows and arrows don't affect it so much, and archers can use lighter armor as they don't have to go into melee and don't have to worry so much about stray bolts, arrows and horses.

I'll go 15-27 or even 15-30, just to counter those my old friends. If it's not enough, i'd go 12-33 or 9-36.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: hippy_with_a_scimi on December 02, 2011, 12:43:56 am
Quote from: Lech on December 02, 2011, 12:09:20 am
15-24, and light shield. It's not good for archer hunting, they can still run away from me freely even with just 18 agi like bagge. Problem is, shield and 1h affect movement a lot, while bows and arrows don't affect it so much, and archers can use lighter armor as they don't have to go into melee and don't have to worry so much about stray bolts, arrows and horses.

I'll go 15-27 or even 15-30, just to counter those my old friends. If it's not enough, i'd go 12-33 or 9-36.

Shielder here too , im 18/24 and once i hit 35( in the next life) ill be 18/27 , when there is alot of archers i usually go studden coat and murder the kiters

in short  8 ath low armor is optimal for theses fuckers ! :D they underestimate the acceleration !
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Cup1d on December 02, 2011, 12:50:48 am
wait, you do not need 12 athletics to catch archer? But how you can do it if everyone think that it's impossible Balbaroth?
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Xant on December 02, 2011, 12:59:21 am
Yes, well, if you have to wear 6.6 weight armor and have 8 athletics to catch archers then it's pretty much impossible for 99% of shielders. And that's only the lower athl archers, of course.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 02, 2011, 01:34:39 am
Quote from: Cup1d on December 02, 2011, 12:50:48 am
wait, you do not need 12 athletics to catch archer? But how you can do it if everyone think that it's impossible Balbaroth?

On NA our agi shielders manage to heavily disrupt and even kill archers. *shrugs* Matey is a prime example of a smart shielder who also has a good build for such a thing.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Lech on December 02, 2011, 10:11:41 am
Quote from: hippy_with_a_scimi on December 02, 2011, 12:43:56 am
Shielder here too , im 18/24 and once i hit 35( in the next life) ill be 18/27 , when there is alot of archers i usually go studden coat and murder the kiters

in short  8 ath low armor is optimal for theses fuckers ! :D they underestimate the acceleration !

weight: 6.6 compared to heraldic mail with tabard weight: 12.2. Thats why i need 27 agi to kill those fuckers.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Cup1d on December 02, 2011, 12:48:31 pm
Quote from: Lech on December 02, 2011, 10:11:41 am
weight: 6.6 compared to heraldic mail with tabard weight: 12.2. Thats why i need 27 agi to kill those fuckers.

No, thats why there are «Smart» and «Meat» shielders.
No offense mate, but math is simple  - if weight of your overall equipment less than opponent's weight - you'll catch opponent.

Archer mininum equipment overall weight:
Armor - 5
boots - 0,5
bow - 1,5
2 quivers of arrows - 6 at least

No hand armor
No head armor
No backup weapon
______________________
= 12



Xant

Quote
Yes, well, if you have to wear 6.6 weight armor and have 8 athletics to catch archers then it's pretty much impossible for 99% of shielders. And that's only the lower athl archers, of course.

Can you show me 30 level archer build with 6 PD, at least 150 wpf in archery and 8 athletics?
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Dezilagel on December 02, 2011, 12:59:24 pm
Quote from: Cup1d on December 02, 2011, 12:48:31 pm

Xant

Can you show me 30 level archer build with 6 PD, at least 150 wpf in archery and 8 athletics?

herpdiderp...
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Xant on December 02, 2011, 01:08:14 pm
Quote from: Cup1d on December 02, 2011, 12:48:31 pm

Xant

Can you show me 30 level archer build with 6 PD, at least 150 wpf in archery and 8 athletics?

Cupid

Can you show me a level 30 shielder build with 6 PS, at least 150 wpf in 1 handed and 8 athletics?
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Cup1d on December 02, 2011, 01:17:33 pm
Xant

There are so many 1H weapons with 18 str requirement?
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Dezilagel on December 02, 2011, 01:20:37 pm
Quote from: Cup1d on December 02, 2011, 01:17:33 pm
Xant

There are so many 1H weapons with 18 str requirement?

You're missing the point; the point is that currently having light armor and little str is pretty damn gimp for melee chars.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Xant on December 02, 2011, 01:21:22 pm
Quote from: Cup1d on December 02, 2011, 01:17:33 pm
Xant

There are so many 1H weapons with 18 str requirement?

You can use a hornbow with 15 strength, and thanks to pierce damage you'll do well.

Wearing 6.6 weight armor for melee means you'll die if someone sneezes on you - ranged from behind or sides, or when you're attacking in melee, or you get kicked, or you just fail once..
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: hippy_with_a_scimi on December 02, 2011, 08:23:02 pm
Quote from: Xant on December 02, 2011, 01:21:22 pm
You can use a hornbow with 15 strength, and thanks to pierce damage you'll do well.

Wearing 6.6 weight armor for melee means you'll die if someone sneezes on you - ranged from behind or sides, or when you're attacking in melee, or you get kicked, or you just fail once..

sadly its true , but the laws of physics cannot be mended, the archer is in clothing or leather at best , he will run faster than a plated guy `:<

Also as much as i love my leather outfit my team usually tk me in the process  :)
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Tzar on December 03, 2011, 09:56:26 am
Increase the weight on the bow kiting archers be gone....
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Rumblood on December 03, 2011, 01:16:04 pm
Quote from: Tzar on December 03, 2011, 09:56:26 am
Increase the weight on the bow kiting archers be gone....

Or decrease the WPF penalty on weight for archers, which will lead to more archers actually wearing heavier armor that slows them down to speeds where they can be caught. Oh, and that armor might at least make them consider a bit of melee where they wont die from a glancing blow.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Tzar on December 03, 2011, 01:44:45 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on December 03, 2011, 01:16:04 pm
Or decrease the WPF penalty on weight for archers, which will lead to more archers actually wearing heavier armor that slows them down to speeds where they can be caught. Oh, and that armor might at least make them consider a bit of melee where they wont die from a glancing blow.

Fail suggestion do i need to explain why or can you figure that one out for yourself? let me know if you figure it out or else ill explain it too you but the amount of fail in that post of yours should ´nt take long to figure out whats gonna go horrible wrong here.

I do see the point your trying to make but archers pack so much dmg all ready on their bows that they dont benefit from using a melee weapon in the first place even if u gave em armor they wouldnt borther since they can outrun melee with their current setup an kite evryone to death unless their target have 9 ath..

Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: MrShine on December 03, 2011, 05:07:10 pm
You could cut off archer's legs and make them stationary turrets and melee units who fail at adapting will still complain.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Taggerung on December 08, 2011, 05:59:02 am
Most archers are 24/18 at level 31.

8 Power Draw
6 Athletics
6 Weapon Master

This obviously varies per player, as some go 18/24 instead or throw points into IF/PS to defend themselves.

Pretty much all agi builds can catch an archer, and any single dedicated shield player can kill a single archer. The problem is that you idiots on the pub servers go after a group of 3 or more archers and they run to have you shot up by their friends.

What you idiots want to nerf is team work done by archers because you're two handed/polearm spam class gets shot up by archers when you approach them...well here s a bit of news. There is no single archer built or player that is OP....there hasn't been one since they changed the level system.

What's sad is that you would still get people complaining about archers even if they did exactly what MrShine said.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: To Kill A Dead Horse on December 08, 2011, 06:56:36 am
I used to think that archery was balanced, then i took an arrow in the knee.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on December 08, 2011, 07:01:47 am
why all cry about archery? i think it is now so- 80% ranged on server are xbow, and only 20% archers, from this 20% 1-2 maybe skilled archers, other are just free kill.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Tzar on December 08, 2011, 07:57:51 am
Quote from: Sir_Agor on December 08, 2011, 07:01:47 am
why all cry about archery? i think it is now so- 80% ranged on server are xbow, and only 20% archers, from this 20% 1-2 maybe skilled archers, other are just free kill.

How would you know  :?: all you do is camp a roof or some hay stack for 7 min each round......
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on December 08, 2011, 08:00:45 am
because this gen i was horseman and then shielder, come on you shoud see it by yourself, far more xbowmans then archers today, or melee with xbows as second weapon
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Elmokki on December 08, 2011, 06:20:15 pm
There are lots of melee with crossbows since:

1) You can get a decent weapon with arbalest and bolts
2) You can get a good weapon you'd use even normally with a normal crossbow and bolts
3) You can get decent accuracy for shooting to even some distance by just investing a couple of points to weapon mastery
4) Even with almost zero accuracy you can get a shot off at close range before swapping to your main weapon.

My two last generations had a normal crossbow with profiencies ranging 80-120. Compared to the investment it was a ridiculously useful weapon. Current gen if I had made a bit different build I might have an arbalest since the 1 slot options for 2h wpf are my favourites anyway.

Bottomline is, at this rate my next gen will definitely be an arbalestman with enough 2h wpf and full ps to be perfectly viable in melee either with a short weapon or if I survive for long (far more likely as a ranged!) I can loot a longer weapon since 2h is so very common weapon type.

Throwing and archery both need a lot more investment in them to be useful thanks to power throw / draw.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 12, 2011, 12:27:51 am
Saying that only bodkins are useful is comeplete rubbish and show you are no archer.

I have masterwork bodkins and at the moment I often use nonloomed barbed arrows, because of money issues (bodkins are very expensive and together with longbow you lose all your money if you haven't constant x3 or higher).
With my loomed bodkins I need 2 shots for a guy in light or medium armour, except for those with very light armour and 0 IF.
With my nonloomed barbed arrows I need exactly the same amount of arrows for those targets --> 2

So other arrows are actually not useless. And now if you have for example loomed tatar arrows, you will probably oneshot most people with light or medium-light amour.

Bodkins only advantage is against heavy armour, plate etc, because for such guys I need 4 or 5 of my nonloomed barbed and they still walk^^
But against lightly armoured targets using bodkins is actually a waste of good ammo, because the amount of ammo is small and you still need 2 for most guys.

Cool would be having one stack of pierce and one stack of cut arrows and then changing the shot type by pressing x for alternative mode^^



Fighting archers is no fun?  Orly?  Fighting shielders for an archer is also no fun, especially not with a hammer, 0 ps and almost no athletics :/
Fighting cav is also no fun since jumpshooting doesn't exist anymore.
Fighting Xbows is also no fun, because they can aim as long as they want and when they reload they can just hide and then step out of cover with their xbow ready to shoot :/
Fighting throwers is no fun as well, because they can walk with their weapon ready, almost not losing accuracy and they can as well hold their "draw"/aim/whatever forever :/

So you continue whining?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Lech on December 12, 2011, 06:03:06 pm
Quote from: Taggerung on December 08, 2011, 05:59:02 am
Most archers are 24/18 at level 31.

8 Power Draw
6 Athletics
6 Weapon Master

This obviously varies per player, as some go 18/24 instead or throw points into IF/PS to defend themselves.

Pretty much all agi builds can catch an archer, and any single dedicated shield player can kill a single archer. The problem is that you idiots on the pub servers go after a group of 3 or more archers and they run to have you shot up by their friends.

What you idiots want to nerf is team work done by archers because you're two handed/polearm spam class gets shot up by archers when you approach them...well here s a bit of news. There is no single archer built or player that is OP....there hasn't been one since they changed the level system.

What's sad is that you would still get people complaining about archers even if they did exactly what MrShine said.
Dedicated shield can't catch the archer, and archer can just run away leaving shield user vulnerable to other archers (and if shield user stop the pursuit, archer just turn and shoot him dead). And dedicated shield user is the only infantry that have some chances (to survive) against multiple ranged.

It's hardly teamwork, it's extremely easy to crossfire when so many players have some ranged weapon. Xbows at least have to reload from time to time and can't just kite, throwers have limited ammo. Archers can just play like pussies and it need to be nerfed - it should be like it was irl - if they want to run away and survive, ok. But throw away your bow first.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 13, 2011, 10:55:37 am
Quote from: Taggerung on December 08, 2011, 05:59:02 am
Most archers are 24/18 at level 31.

8 Power Draw
6 Athletics
6 Weapon Master

This obviously varies per player, as some go 18/24 instead or throw points into IF/PS to defend themselves.

Pretty much all agi builds can catch an archer, and any single dedicated shield player can kill a single archer. The problem is that you idiots on the pub servers go after a group of 3 or more archers and they run to have you shot up by their friends.

What you idiots want to nerf is team work done by archers because you're two handed/polearm spam class gets shot up by archers when you approach them...well here s a bit of news. There is no single archer built or player that is OP....there hasn't been one since they changed the level system.

What's sad is that you would still get people complaining about archers even if they did exactly what MrShine said.

I have no idea where you got that from that most archers have 24/18 at lvl 31.  I couldn't name anyone who would use such a build. You know you would hit almost nothing with 8 pd but only 6 wm?^^

But I really agree with the rest of what you wrote man :)

Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Wrenaq_Lars on December 14, 2011, 01:11:45 am
Quote from: Sir_Agor on December 08, 2011, 07:01:47 am
why all cry about archery? i think it is now so- 80% ranged on server are xbow, and only 20% archers, from this 20% 1-2 maybe skilled archers, other are just free kill.
This, if anything nerf xbows, How many two handers carry an xbow as a side arm? Loads do,Heck I hate xbows cos you can use them with just str and I get one shotted all the time from them.
  This game is a little like rock paper scissors in a way and Iam sick of reading that everyone hates archers, look at the score boards and its the two hander/polearm users who top the boards all the time.
I made a new main and respected at level 16-18 to see what all thew classes are like, Two handers I got a positive score at level 12 but as an archer (which I have gone back to) at level 20 Iam lucky if I can break even in the scores.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Rogue_Eagle on December 14, 2011, 10:12:40 am
I used to melee more as archer when I could carry a half decent melee weapon. The nerfing of amount of arrows carried has forced me to carry a 0 slot weapon if I want to do any decent damage with a bow. I have been forced to kite.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Cup1d on December 14, 2011, 12:31:55 pm
Quote from: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 13, 2011, 10:55:37 am
I have no idea where you got that from that most archers have 24/18 at lvl 31.  I couldn't name anyone who would use such a build. You know you would hit almost nothing with 8 pd but only 6 wm?^^

But I really agree with the rest of what you wrote man :)

Dude, it's mericans builds. you know they like builds like those:

Heavy infantry
36 str \ 3 agi, 0 athletics, black armor

Medium infantry
36 str \ 3 agi, 1 athletics, milanese plate

Merican ninja
33 str \ 6 agi, 2 athletics, heavy strange armor

Merican kiter-archer
27 str \ 9 agi, 3 athletics, bride dress


Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Jambi on December 14, 2011, 02:27:44 pm
Nerf archery more, im still topping the scoreboards. QQ
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 14, 2011, 05:45:26 pm
Having done an 24/18 8Pd 6WM 3ATHL build at level 30, I assure you that it is extremely possible to hit things even far away (at least with a WM Rus bow), that was my basis for my 33 build (Thank goodness I finally leveled higher into more athletics and such). Other people I know tried it out (for level 30) and with standard rus bows attained positive KDs their first swing. All it takes is supportive clan mates and you paying very close attention to avoid being overrun.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking ter
Post by: Arrowblood on December 14, 2011, 06:13:28 pm
NERF THE JAMBIBOW BUFF THE LONGBOW
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Taggerung on December 15, 2011, 07:57:01 am
Quote from: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 13, 2011, 10:55:37 am
I have no idea where you got that from that most archers have 24/18 at lvl 31.  I couldn't name anyone who would use such a build. You know you would hit almost nothing with 8 pd but only 6 wm?^^

But I really agree with the rest of what you wrote man :)

Most of the Fallen is where I got those #'s at lol. I hit things just fine with only 6wm, even at extreme ranges, and with 8pd, I hit them with some force.
Title: Re: can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl
Post by: Templar_Ratigan on December 15, 2011, 06:56:57 pm
Quote from: Tzar on November 25, 2011, 02:16:43 pm
cRPG is turning into native..............

Did you play from the very first patches? Crpg WAS native, it has in fact become less like native as it has gone along, although at the cost of the more entertaining weapons/armours and crossdressing.

It is more like native in appearance now, but less like it when you are playing it.