cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Joker86 on September 27, 2011, 05:34:34 pm

Title: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Joker86 on September 27, 2011, 05:34:34 pm
Hi there!

I play (and have played) quite a lot of multiplayer games, and there has always been a lot of whining about balance, other classes and similar stuff, but not a single game came even close the the level of whining in cRPG.

Don't get me wrong, I don't call every critics whining (in fact I hate people doing so), I just use it to describe the enormous hate some classes have towards others.

I ask myself, where this comes from, because if we can localize the problem, we have better chances solving it and perhaps achieve a balance that pleases everyone and thus improve the overall atmosphere in the community.


I am far away from the answer of this question, but I think the problem comes from the personal perception, that other players need less effort to kill you than your effort to kill others. Which, on one hand, probably comes from the rock-paper-scissors-system, on the other hand from the big impact of player skill on the game. If this is true, I don't know how to solve this...  :?

What do you think?

I would appreciate very much if people could limit their trolling in this topic. It's a serious question, and I think the matter is really interesting, because if there is anything you associate with the cRPG community, then it's complaining about other classes. 90% (felt value) of all discussions is about nerfing other classes. Why?

And no, "whiners whine" doesn't help...

Sure there will be some very funny guy who quotes this anyway. If he does so he just humiliated himself in my eyes for having literally no sense of humour at all.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: played on September 27, 2011, 05:39:03 pm
There is not more whining here, then in your average MMO game.
 For me, the rage & whine usually happens when something i consider lame, kills me. (cav, most archers, long-axe, polearms, xbow etc)

Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Joker86 on September 27, 2011, 05:40:05 pm
Okay, how do you consider what's lame and what not?
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Torben on September 27, 2011, 05:42:20 pm
Why is there so much whining in cRPG?

manifest noobness and acute gayness.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Penitent on September 27, 2011, 05:48:41 pm
Like it or not, I hold the position that the classes are pretty much balanced.  I don't see one class or one gear layout over-used or consistently topping the score boards.

Sure, there can still be some balance tweaks, but I don't know where the whining comes from.  I've played pretty much all classes (2h, pole, shield, cav, archer) and they are all different, but one is not significantly easier or harder than the others.

The reason for whining?  I think people just get caught up in multiplayer games, especially ones where you play the same character and build that character (mmorpg's and such, which crpg has elements of).  I think we should just /ignore them.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Torben on September 27, 2011, 05:51:25 pm
Like it or not, I hold the position that the classes are pretty much balanced.

this.

I think we should just /ignore them.

and this.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Penitent on September 27, 2011, 05:59:50 pm

 For me, the rage & whine usually happens when something i consider lame, kills me. (cav, most archers, long-axe, polearms, xbow etc)

Respectfully, I think that's part of the problem the OP is referring to.  Some weapons/classes are "lame."  Why, because you were killed by something besides a 1h or 2h weapon?  You basically named all play styles except those two...LOL. 

Instead of rage & whine, just learn from it and adapt for the next spawn.
Bring a long spear, shield, or adapt footwork for those polearms!
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Teeth on September 27, 2011, 06:02:36 pm
This game is the most frustrating piece of shit ever.  You keep getting killed without you being able to anything. Huge issues get overlooked or accepted. It's the hardest game there is.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Snoozer on September 27, 2011, 06:08:57 pm
hmm i am a pole(<i geuss our position should be stated in the crpg ecosystem lol)


from what ive gathered pretty much eveyone agrees that this game requires alot of skill
(meaning its not completely about some sort of stats or lvl though god forbid i lvl 14 kills u n tells u hes 14.ive seen DL_kryser do that its mean Q_Q)

so people think if there strictly skilled enough they can win anything anywhere

but THERE IS a sort of "paper rock scissors" system

certain classes by default are naturally weaker to other classes in slight ways

simple examples strong vs weak:
poles vs cav
cav vs archer
shield vs archer
archer vs non-shielder
2h vs general all rounder class imo

so whenever u meet your natural enemy in the crpg ecosystem it is harder to survive

^and also maybe because the skill of this game requires more tactics that the average player is not use to

ex:if one is a 1H+shield it does not mean hes going to run directly towards the archers on a roof, he still has to avoid fire by dodging or going around buildings to sustain the shields hp for when he really needs it
(ei when he is so close the archers CANT miss him or when he has to go up a ladder)

ex2:or if you are a pole even though u can kill horses it doesnt mean u run into the middle of the courtyard surrounded by cav u have to put yourself in a position where its harder for them to couch and surround u

it doesnt mean u CANT kill them but its certainly harder to survive with them around you. if an archers pelting me i have to either get cover or dance like Michael Jackson not walk in a straight line just saying.

but when this happens what if he is just as skilled as you?or better yet even more skilled your odds of survival plummet
^thats when the QQ begins(or atleast the logical QQ sometimes people r just mad they lost)
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Raki on September 27, 2011, 06:13:48 pm
Well...there are times where you would usually be able to win a fight, but are unable to because of some reason. One that causes a lot of rage to especially melee users without shields (pole & 2h) would be running archers, shotgunning crossbowmen or throwers practicing a combination of both.
You "know" you would be able to kill that person if you were only one step closer, but you get killed because of a trick that seems cheap at that time.
Also, horsebumping can be quite rage-inducing as the rider effectively allows someone, possibly inferior in skill, to kill you easily while you are stunned. The same can be said for pikes/long spears as they can force you to block down, where you actually want to block the person right in front of you.
That said, people are whining because they're losing a fight they could have won because they're either unaware of their environment or they're underestimating the other team.
Myself, I'll try to whine less about people and learn to dodge point blank shots and bolts shot from mid-close range.
(Also, I'll get me a flamberge to prevent cavbumps  :twisted:)
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Kafein on September 27, 2011, 06:15:40 pm
Whining happens more when people can't easily change and adapt their build and equipment to what they whine about.

In Native, there is whining about the amount of ranged because some players want to play melee yet it's not optimal, even for them. In cRPG, on top of that you have the char inertia. You can't switch class like in Native, thus the whine is worse.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: RandomDude on September 27, 2011, 06:19:28 pm
well its been a long while since i played a MMORPG and i cant really remember going on to the forums to whine in an mmorpg.

i used to make guides, write stories and talk about stuff etc but i cant remember changes being made that I felt really affected me in any way

in crpg people give a shit about losing 1 damage on their weapon of choice or an extra 1 dmg on weapons they hate because they feel it really affects them in-game
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: MrShine on September 27, 2011, 06:28:38 pm
I don't think the whining is any more or less prevalent in CRPG than other multiplayer games with 'classes'.

One thing I do find funny is how some people *coughGORATHcough* seem to believe that a certain class *coughRANGEDcough* has a certain mentality that is exclusive only to those players *coughPUSSIEScough*.

I've played a bunch of classes, from ranged to melee to cav (I'm a terrible cav) and it's funny how complaints change.  It's like people think that only real men play class XYZ, while pansies play class ABC, without realizing that most people play a bunch of different ones.

So I'd say it is false perception of classes that one isn't familiar with that leads to whining.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Torben on September 27, 2011, 06:32:17 pm
This game is the most frustrating piece of shit ever.  You keep getting killed without you being able to anything. Huge issues get overlooked or accepted. It's the hardest game there is.

haha
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Joseph on September 27, 2011, 06:47:23 pm
People rage because they simply can.

It's not like raging to Blizzard or something, but on cRPG, they know chadz can do something about it if they whine hard enough.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Leshma on September 27, 2011, 06:51:13 pm
Exactly. And that's the reason why I don't play some smelly mainstream game made by Blizz :)
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Penitent on September 27, 2011, 07:01:06 pm
It's not like raging to Blizzard or something, but on cRPG, they know chadz can do something about it if they whine hard enough.

I think we are getting to a major point here...in such a small game with a known developer/overseer there is a better chance of your "whining" making a difference.  So if there is a perceived imbalance or a hated class, it might be "worth it" to these people to rage hard and actually attempt to get something changed.

I bet this is one of the underlying reasons that addresses the OP's question "why so much rage/whine?"  A possible answer: because it might actually work.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: LordBerenger on September 27, 2011, 07:08:37 pm
Remove Two-Handed weapons and i GUARANDAMNTEE that if you wait 2-4 weeks all whiners will be gone from cRPG. Trust me.  :shock:
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Teeth on September 27, 2011, 07:22:53 pm
Cause everyone will be gone?
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: The_Angle on September 27, 2011, 07:25:36 pm
Remove Two-Handed weapons and i GUARANDAMNTEE that if you wait 2-4 weeks all whiners will be gone from cRPG. Trust me.  :shock:
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: SchokoSchaf on September 27, 2011, 07:26:08 pm
Remove Two-Handed weapons and i GUARANDAMNTEE that if you wait 2-4 weeks all whiners will be gone from cRPG. Trust me.  :shock:
You forgot OttomanSniper.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Phazey on September 27, 2011, 07:32:01 pm
...but not a single game came even close the the level of whining in cRPG.

That's odd. I seem to perceive the opposite.

I remember forums in World of Warcraft to be full of whine and flaming and almost unusable because of that. But a better example would be APB. I've spent a few hours trying to read the APB forums, but my god... most of it is whine and the rest is flaming and cheat accusations.

I think the crpg community is pretty good compared to others.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Dexxtaa on September 27, 2011, 07:38:52 pm
That's odd. I seem to perceive the opposite.

I remember forums in World of Warcraft to be full of whine and flaming and almost unusable because of that. But a better example would be APB. I've spent a few hours trying to read the APB forums, but my god... most of it is whine and the rest is flaming and cheat accusations.

I think the crpg community is pretty good compared to others.

TF2 has a much better community than cRPG. If you hit the clan servers, people are a lot nicer, outgoing and supportive on there. The nublet servers are just quiet, cos no one has a mic. And they're morons.

While cRPG doesn't have the worst community ever, it certainly has a few outstanding characters who draw from the dredges of society.

APB is actually worse than this community. APB has cheat accusations flying in real time, and all around morons, idiots, whiners and ragers.

I can't say anything about WoW, I don't play it. But I like the MnB community. You gaise aren't half bad assholes <3
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Leshma on September 27, 2011, 07:42:19 pm
That's odd. I seem to perceive the opposite.

I remember forums in World of Warcraft to be full of whine and flaming and almost unusable because of that. But a better example would be APB. I've spent a few hours trying to read the APB forums, but my god... most of it is whine and the rest is flaming and cheat accusations.

I think the crpg community is pretty good compared to others.

WoW have so many kids playing it, that why so much whine.

APB is the worst game I ever "tested" so even if I've never read their forums I bet all that whine is justified.

C-RPG has a lot more mature community and that's why so much whine seems odd.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Lichen on September 27, 2011, 07:44:47 pm
I play (and have played) quite a lot of multiplayer games, and there has always been a lot of whining about balance, other classes and similar stuff, but not a single game came even close the the level of whining in cRPG.
Same here. Only in many of those other games there is little to NO whining. Here it's crybaby central though.


I've played a bunch of classes, from ranged to melee to cav (I'm a terrible cav) and it's funny how complaints change.  It's like people think that only real men play class XYZ, while pansies play class ABC, without realizing that most people play a bunch of different ones.
I have played ALL classes myself and I can assure the crybabies they can do well in ANY class if they are skilled. I could bring out my alt thrower RIGHT NOW. Go on siege or battle. Do very well, then have all the morons bitching about throwing being 'OP'. I could do the same with any other build/class. The common ingredient in success is 'skill'. It's NOT the classes or weapons that are the problem.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Phazey on September 27, 2011, 07:46:23 pm
TF2 has a much better community than cRPG.

True, but you are talking about alltalk servers like Festers place. That's not a forum. Not a fair comparison.

But i agree that TF2 also has a fantastic community. GoT for the Dutchies, Festers for the Brits.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Leshma on September 27, 2011, 07:56:00 pm
I have played ALL classes myself and I can assure the crybabies they can do well in ANY class if they are skilled.

That is true. But that's not the problem, that's how it should be.

Problem is that someone who's crappy at any form of melee could pick some ranged class and pwn people. That's not cool.

Or he's just not made to be man at arms? :lol:
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: played on September 27, 2011, 07:59:11 pm
Same here. Only in many of those other games there is little to NO whining. Here it's crybaby central though.

I have played ALL classes myself and I can assure the crybabies they can do well in ANY class if they are skilled. I could bring out my alt thrower RIGHT NOW. Go on siege and top the scoreboard very likely then have all the morons bitching about throwing being 'OP'. I could do the same with any other build/class. The common ingredient in success is 'skill'. It's NOT the classes or weapons that are the problem.

Im willing to bet all my crpg gold, on you using fotm builds and equipment on all those characters.
 Its easy to top the scoreboard, doing it with sub-par items and experimental builds takes skills.
Mala is a great example of a good player using sub-par equipment, much respect toward him for sticking with his style for over a year, regardless of build/eq efficiency.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: LordBerenger on September 27, 2011, 08:02:31 pm
AND SO THE WHINERS COMES OUT. THE RACISTS CLASSISTS HATING EVERYONE EXCEPT THE SWORDYAN RACE CLASS!
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Lichen on September 27, 2011, 08:03:50 pm
Problem is that someone who's crappy at any form of melee could pick some ranged class and pwn people. That's not cool.
So what? Also I'd disagree if you are saying that any player can just go archer and immediately 'own'.

Im willing to bet all my crpg gold, on you using fotm builds and equipment on all those characters.
 
What's fotm?
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: played on September 27, 2011, 08:05:54 pm
So what? Also I'd disagree if you are saying that any player can just go archer and immediately 'own'.
What's fotm?

Flavor of the month, or in cRPG's case flavor of the patch. Aka items/build that have been tested and 'verified' to be effective.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 27, 2011, 08:07:40 pm
People rage because they simply can.

It's not like raging to Blizzard or something, but on cRPG, they know chadz can do something about it if they whine hard enough.

This all the way.

We have a lot of whine because the Devs interact a ot with the community and people know this so they raise their voices.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: LordBerenger on September 27, 2011, 08:18:15 pm
This all the way.

We have a lot of whine because the Devs interact a ot with the community and people know this so they raise their voices.

You should've seen the day Red Orchestra 2 was released. Tripwire have a good connection with the playerbase but DAMN i haven't seen so much whine and anger in a long time on Steam Forums lol. Each thread = REFUUUND FAK THIS PIECEOF CRAP! ITS SO SLOOOW AND BUGSSS!!! RAGEEEE
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Bowl_of_Cereal on September 27, 2011, 08:20:06 pm
It's obviously because crpg isn't forgiving, it has balance issues (lol cudgel knockdown and murder tincan, so real) and is also very unforgiving.

People get frustrated and since there's a chat, why not express it to your fellow crpg players who don't really care about what you're talking about anyway.

I mean, have you ever injured yourself, like stubbed your toe and not swore or at least made an angry expression on your face? Losing in crpg is sort of like stubbing your toe.

It hurts.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Lichen on September 27, 2011, 08:26:40 pm
Flavor of the month, or in cRPG's case flavor of the patch. Aka items/build that have been tested and 'verified' to be effective.
Oh ok. So you say using sub par items and experimental builds is the more 'skilled' method. So when I go on siege and get rock kills while wearing only the lightest tunic(s) is that skilled enough? When one of my past characters wearing only leather jerkin + a shield and 1h managed to survive in the chaos of siege while getting a good number of kills is that skilled enough? When I purposely hybridize (or tribridize) to gimp myself in part so I don't have to hear the bitching anytime I'm TOO effective (and also keep things more interesting to play) is that skilled enough? When I hit a moving target from far away going at compound angles (think cavalry as it's maneuvering) that many archers can't is that skilled enough? Seriously I don't hate on other builds at all no matter WHAT they are. Because it's none of my business what OTHER people find fun and want to play. I just take it as a challenge which I enjoy anyway.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Bowl_of_Cereal on September 27, 2011, 08:28:20 pm
I just take it as a challenge which I enjoy anyway.

/thread
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Snoozer on September 27, 2011, 08:38:40 pm
People rage because they simply can.

It's not like raging to Blizzard or something, but on cRPG, they know chadz can do something about it if they whine hard enough.
thats not true at all those raging little bitch need to get there ass beat for how much shit they rage about in WoW U WOULD BE AMAZED HOW MUCH SHIT HAS BEEN CHANGED in WoW because of Q_Q little bitches whining about a class and geting it nerfed half way to death
(^im totally raging btw u dont need to ask)

I don't think the whining is any more or less prevalent in CRPG than other multiplayer games with 'classes'.

One thing I do find funny is how some people *coughGORATHcough* seem to believe that a certain class *coughRANGEDcough* has a certain mentality that is exclusive only to those players *coughPUSSIEScough*.

I've played a bunch of classes, from ranged to melee to cav (I'm a terrible cav) and it's funny how complaints change.  It's like people think that only real men play class XYZ, while pansies play class ABC, without realizing that most people play a bunch of different ones.

So I'd say it is false perception of classes that one isn't familiar with that leads to whining.
^i sorta noticed that too,but the strange thing is once they change their class there perceptions change and thus hate other classes based off there class EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE JUST THAT OTHER CLASS!!!its kinda funny when u think about it
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Malaclypse on September 27, 2011, 08:44:23 pm
I have said this before, and I will say it again: it's not that there are a lot of people whining, it's that you don't notice the multitude who aren't whining because they are not whining.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: justme on September 27, 2011, 08:45:28 pm
people whine  because they make high lvl builds, make dedicated mw weapons for it, and suddenly it magicly dissapears... ofcourse they are mad
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Bonze on September 27, 2011, 08:54:19 pm
REASON:
The devs are a chaotic bunch of lobbyist and noobs with no destination route :twisted:
Good example is archery since  one year they buff or nerf bundle of sticksery with  every patch.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Ylca on September 27, 2011, 09:34:31 pm
A lot of people have only played one class and believe that class to be superior. Most of the whining comes from people with certain builds more than any others, for some reason i don't hear a lot of archers speak up about melee but boy do 2handers who chose not to take a shield love to talk about how all ranged should be nerfed.

Some people choose builds that are suboptimal for their playstyle, for instance 2handers are incredibly vulnerable for obvious reasons but people who like to be at the head of the charge seem not to understand this before they create one. After creating this class they then proceed to zerg in the front lines, then wonder why they are filled with those "cheap" ranged.

Very few people will comment while they spectate archers and watch arrows miss over and over, but get one good headshot and archery most certainly needs to be nerfed.

Have you noticed the most and loudest complaints come from people who are facing their counter? 2hers complain about ranged, cav complains about ranged, shielders complain about crush through, tincans complain about knockdown, etc.

Basically for some people their class should do everything at once and be near untouchable, and anything that stops them from killing is automatically "cheap". The irony of a guy with 9IF in Black armor mobile tank mode calling the archer who just headshot him from across the map "an unskilled noob" is lost on most of these people.

e: Hell, look at the sig for the post above mine for an example.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Momo on September 27, 2011, 09:54:38 pm
OMG your post is totally retarded - go suck one and die.
Never heard more bullshit in one single post, seriously.

Are you mentally challenged or what?!
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: LordBerenger on September 27, 2011, 09:57:20 pm
OMG your post is totally retarded - go suck one and die.
Never heard more bullshit in one single post, seriously.

Are you mentally challenged or what?!

I like challenges for my mentality.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 27, 2011, 09:57:46 pm
OMG your post is totally retarded - go suck one and die.
Never heard more bullshit in one single post, seriously.

Are you mentally challenged or what?!

And a wild Momo appears, devoid of all reason or purpose.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Momo on September 27, 2011, 09:59:17 pm
*sarcasm*
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Digglez on September 27, 2011, 10:01:50 pm
every game has whiners, the same amount.

every game has some whiner whining about why theres so many whiners
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Joker86 on September 27, 2011, 10:05:14 pm
every game has whiners, the same amount.

every game has some whiner whining about why theres so many whiners

Every game has trolls trolling around and thinking they are smart/funny/whatever (and they are definitely not), not knowing their miserable real life and pathetic existance make them troll in the internet.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Bonze on September 27, 2011, 10:10:00 pm


A lot of people have only played one class and believe that class to be superior. Most of the whining comes from people with certain builds more than any others, for some reason i don't hear a lot of archers speak up about melee but boy do 2handers who chose not to take a shield love to talk about how all ranged should be nerfed.

Some people choose builds that are suboptimal for their playstyle, for instance 2handers are incredibly vulnerable for obvious reasons but people who like to be at the head of the charge seem not to understand this before they create one. After creating this class they then proceed to zerg in the front lines, then wonder why they are filled with those "cheap" ranged.

Very few people will comment while they spectate archers and watch arrows miss over and over, but get one good headshot and archery most certainly needs to be nerfed.

Have you noticed the most and loudest complaints come from people who are facing their counter? 2hers complain about ranged, cav complains about ranged, shielders complain about crush through, tincans complain about knockdown, etc.

Basically for some people their class should do everything at once and be near untouchable, and anything that stops them from killing is automatically "cheap". The irony of a guy with 9IF in Black armor mobile tank mode calling the archer who just headshot him from across the map "an unskilled noob" is lost on most of these people.

e: Hell, look at the sig for the post above mine for an example.


newbie ...
 
people complaining  since  1 year about ranged css shiit .The old forum was full with topics about bundle of sticksery.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 27, 2011, 10:11:05 pm


newbie ...
 
people complaining  since  1 year about ranged css shiit .The old forum was full with topics about bundle of sticksery.

People have also been complaining about every other class since year one.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Kafein on September 27, 2011, 10:17:51 pm
Have you noticed the most and loudest complaints come from people who are facing their counter?

True but you lack to see what counters what :


2hers complain about ranged, cav complains about ranged, shielders complain about crush through ranged, tincans complain about knockdown ranged, ranged complain about nothing, apart the occasional nerf to range.

I fixed it for you.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 27, 2011, 10:19:53 pm
Range counters shielders?

Fuck yeah, I am the master class.... BOW TO ME!

Honestly though as a shielder I hate fighting cav the most. I used to fear crushthrough until I learned how to properly use footwork, and now even with just 5 ATHL I can usually take them out assuming equal skill.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Ylca on September 27, 2011, 10:22:00 pm
True but you lack to see what counters what :



Yeah most people whine about their counter.

Yeah, you're right back on target about what i'm talking about and have given a great example. People will take one aspect they don't like and doggedly pursue its destruction despite the case. Kafein above me just listed ranged as the counter to shielders, yet still could go on to be taken seriously in another balance topic somewhere else on the forum. This kind of one-tracked mindedness is not only rarely called out, but actually given credence and seemingly used in design decisions.

I'll just point that out again, this guy is claiming that ranged is a counter to shielders. Sadly enough, if there's ever a poll on how ranged should progress his "ranged is the only killer, arrows and bolts cause cancer"-style mentality will still have the same vote as someone who, say, understands mechanics and how to block an arrow with a shield.

It's a sad state, really.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: MrShine on September 27, 2011, 10:28:18 pm
Yeah, you're right back on target about what i'm talking about and have given a great example. People will take one aspect they don't like and doggedly pursue its destruction despite the case. Kafein above me just listed ranged as the counter to shielders, yet still could go on to be taken seriously in another balance topic somewhere else on the forum. This kind of one-tracked mindedness is not only rarely called out, but actually given credence and seemingly used in design decisions.

I'll just point that out again, this guy is claiming that ranged is a counter to shielders. Sadly enough, if there's ever a poll on how ranged should progress his "ranged is the only killer, arrows and bolts cause cancer"-style mentality will still have the same vote as someone who, say, understands mechanics and how to block an arrow with a shield.

It's a sad state, really.

We don't take kindly to your type here pardner.  Git to the back of the bus.

If only we could separate the forums for different classes.  We could keep them equal of course... but separate.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Kafein on September 27, 2011, 10:30:34 pm
Yeah, you're right back on target about what i'm talking about and have given a great example. People will take one aspect they don't like and doggedly pursue its destruction despite the case. Kafein above me just listed ranged as the counter to shielders, yet still could go on to be taken seriously in another balance topic somewhere else on the forum. This kind of one-tracked mindedness is not only rarely called out, but actually given credence and seemingly used in design decisions.

I'll just point that out again, this guy is claiming that ranged is a counter to shielders. Sadly enough, if there's ever a poll on how ranged should progress his "ranged is the only killer, arrows and bolts cause cancer"-style mentality will still have the same vote as someone who, say, understands mechanics and how to block an arrow with a shield.

It's a sad state, really.


So let's discuss things very rationnally then.

What happens to two shielders trying to kill two archers on a perfectly flat map ?
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: MrShine on September 27, 2011, 10:33:48 pm

So let's discuss things very rationnally then.

What happens to two shielders trying to kill two archers on a perfectly flat map ?

The shielders wait for MOTF and win the round.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Ylca on September 27, 2011, 10:39:55 pm
The shielders wait for MOTF and win the round.

Or they work together and isolate the archers from each other then slaughter them. Archers are not exactly known for shining in melee. 2 shielders stick next to each other, when the archers split one covers one direction the other covers the other, the two surround one archer and murder him then go on to the other. I watch archers die this way every round, i'm not sure how this is even a  theoretical question so much as a daily occurrence.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Penitent on September 27, 2011, 10:41:07 pm

So let's discuss things very rationnally then.

What happens to two shielders trying to kill two archers on a perfectly flat map ?

The shielders stay together and Block/dodge all their arrows until they run out.  Then [Q, A, X] CHARGE!
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Joker86 on September 27, 2011, 10:47:26 pm
Or they work together and isolate the archers from each other then slaughter them. Archers are not exactly known for shining in melee. 2 shielders stick next to each other, when the archers split one covers one direction the other covers the other, the two surround one archer and murder him then go on to the other. I watch archers die this way every round, i'm not sure how this is even a  theoretical question so much as a daily occurrence.

It is not easy to always cover your shield mate (who is moving) from an archer (who is also moving). And he has to do the same with yet another archer. This won't work. Yes, on maps with obstacles like houses it works by standing at a corner and preventing the archer of looking (and shooting) around, but not on flat, open maps. (And such maps do exist).
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: BranStark on September 27, 2011, 10:47:38 pm
lol this is nothing.

Go back in time and visit the Starcraft 2 forums in the weeks after it's release. Holy mother of god.

I left them then, and still haven't gone back.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: duurrr on September 27, 2011, 10:54:47 pm
i would be totaly fine about sitting on a duel server all day and not dealing with the bullshit battle has, but you cant since so often of the time there's nobody on duel or people there are terrible it feels like a waste of time, other time theres huge armor derp crutch who close to 1shot you and take literaly 10 hits to kill

i personally think range need a total rework, accuracy should be like native and you should be able to manual block with your bow but you also should be able to parry arrows, armored cavs shouldnt exist at all and neither should full armor heirlooms  :rolleyes:

whoever above said theres so many situations where you cant do shit about anything so you just die, thats what the frustration is about, is totally right
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Bryggan on September 28, 2011, 01:07:45 am
Ha ha, a thread about whiners has turned into whining about balance- like all threads in this forum do.

I love everything about CRPG.  I don't give a damn about balance, I just like playing my char the way he is, but then again my entire self worth is not dependent on my kill/death ratio.  True, it sucks when you get a random head shot when you charge up a hill, but that sorta seems historically accurate- that shit did happen (ask King Harald), and it was even worse for them- and they never whined (well, their widows might have).
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Brrrak on September 28, 2011, 01:23:35 am
I'm just angry I suck.

What the fuck's anyone else's problem?

EDIT:  Oh yeah, make the fucking plated charger eight riding, ffs! 
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: spacebug on September 28, 2011, 02:28:35 am
You should've seen the day Red Orchestra 2 was released. Tripwire have a good connection with the playerbase but DAMN i haven't seen so much whine and anger in a long time on Steam Forums lol. Each thread = REFUUUND FAK THIS PIECEOF CRAP! ITS SO SLOOOW AND BUGSSS!!! RAGEEEE

don't you think a consumer has the right to complain about the product they purchased if it's not working as intended/should be? There is a fine line between complaining without a legitimate reason and complaining with one. Games, when released, should at the very least work with some mediocum of stability. And it's the apologists that allow for continued release of slipshod half assed jobs that barely pass for a beta. Let's be realistic; expecting optimization of a game to be complete is hardly setting the bar high. When a game comes out with terrible frame lag and littered with a plethora of bugs, I say they are completely in the right to ask for a refund (even though they will never get it). 

complaining for the sake of complaining is just annoying, I agree..

To everyone -

When it comes to mods you have to lower the expectations, clearly, but...... As a new player it's just so frustrating to run around completely ineffective regardless of what equipment you have. I don't give up easily so I'll keep plugging away until I get to a level where I can compete... But most people don't have that patience and long term success will depend on attracting and keeping new players. If you can accomplish this without dumbing down the game play then I say any and all questions of balance should be at least tested out before they are dismissed out right.

The servers I play on it's just people of high levels running around in their underwear one shotting people.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Smoothrich on September 28, 2011, 03:00:13 am
How to get around all whining:

Become good 2 hander and good cav, alternate between these with generations, congratulations you are the one who causes the whine
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Herald_Hardrata on September 28, 2011, 03:07:56 am
People are "whining" because, as has been said elsewhere, the devs and admins are becoming less and less concerned with the perspective of the general player base, and the quality of the game is generally diminishing over time.

- There are no patch notes. The devs do very little to try and communicate changes and their overall vision for the mod with the rest of the community, and as of last patch, it actually broke more things then it fixed.

- As has been brought up elsewhere, the devs blatantly ignore great looking, historically relevant items that the community spends countless hours making for arbitrary and unknown reasons. (Byzantine armor.)

- Refusal to add Roman armor because its "not from the correct historical period", but then they go and add 17th century armor. There are vikings, knights, conquistadors, ninjas, samurai, but when it comes Roman and greek armor which wouldn't cause balancing issues, they just flat out say no. I have yet to hear a reasonable answer from a dev about why they keep refusing to allow such a popular request which wouldn't damage the look and feel, or balance of the game. Still waiting...

People are "whining" more because the devs have stopped caring about what the community wants, or at least are extremely selective in what they actually work on while ignoring anything they don't want to do.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Dede on September 28, 2011, 07:03:43 am
- Refusal to add Roman armor because its "not from the correct historical period", but then they go and add 17th century armor.

I've already corrected you on another topic (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,16702.msg237889.html#msg237889). Please stop spreading out your false information about the "turkish Chichak". It doesn't become true the more time you repeat it.
The polish winged hussar capeline in "With Fire and Sword" is from 17.c. not the turkish Chichak. 
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Kabookie on September 28, 2011, 08:32:42 am
Whine with spam... what more could you want?  :lol:
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Espu on September 28, 2011, 09:49:15 am
People are "whining" because, as has been said elsewhere, the devs and admins are becoming less and less concerned with the perspective of the general player base, and the quality of the game is generally diminishing over time.

[...]

You're obviously new if you see the game "generally diminishing over time". The stuff we've accomplished with very little resources during the last year are pretty amazing. There are of course shortcomings for example in communicating stuff to the community, but these have had some attention directed at them too during the last few months. "There are no patch notes" is simply not true any more. There are notes and their quality has improved significantly (we actually pay attention to the notes nowadays).

I would like to see you give some proper concrete examples of this diminishing quality or ignoring the community. If your 17th century thing (invalidated elsewhere already) and our refusal to add some Byzantine items really are the biggest problems currently then it seems to me that situation is quite good.

Last patch broke some stuff (like all major version patches) which were then rapidly fixed in the hotfix. As discussed over 9000 times before, the community is also the testing crew. This obviously means some amount of bugs are discovered when thousands of people start poking at the new code, but seeing how most of the major bugs are usually fixed within hours of release makes you seem quite unreasonable to demand more.

Concrete feedback is always appreciated but expectations need to be adjusted to available resources. To me it seems like you're a new player who's used to commercial-grade games with actual paid development and management teams. Also, most commercial teams break stuff too at patch day and release fixes slower than we do despite their paid testing teams and quality assurance policies and whatnot.

(This was more or less directed at the whole community, your post just managed to taunt me into writing an actual reply)
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Snoozer on September 28, 2011, 10:15:18 am
personally i side with the devs on alot of things its not that they do not listen its just they have a lot on their plate

my point on this thread was how people somehow ignore the fact that maybe its because its there natural enemy that is the reason why things are "OP" or there strategy is not being adapted to the situation
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: chadz on September 28, 2011, 10:27:51 am
I think the biggest reason for whine is the combination of:

a skill based game,
that also has character stats,
paired with a rather persistant environment.

When you get whacked in a normal MMO where it's about clicking hotkeys and letting the char do the rest, it's easier to calculate why it happened. People can really figure out if that was happend was unbalanced or not.

In here, you get whacked, and now you don't know what to blame:
your own lack of skill how totally skilled the opponent was,
the ping,
the recent change in weapon stats that gave his weapon +1 damage,
the recent change in armor stats that gave your armor -1 defense,
a random factor?

It could be all, some or something totally different. Which makes it complicated. And because of the persistancy, you cant just say "hey, i'll just see and give it a try from the other side" in an instant.

If that is a desired effect or not is subject of a long discussion, I guess. I personally like it, because it means less game-calculating(excel sheets) and more game-feeling for players. I want people to know that weapon xyz will smash some heads, without being able to actually say why. Feeling. I'm still lobbying to hide the item stats altogether and replace them with a generic "low/medium/high" :)
(click to show/hide)

And then it's probably also what was said many pages ago - that you can actually communicate with us, so it might actually have impact. Need to think about that :).
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Corwin on September 28, 2011, 10:42:02 am
I love the idea of hiding weapon stats.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Vibe on September 28, 2011, 10:43:17 am
I hate it. Petition to remove chadz from devs.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Snoozer on September 28, 2011, 10:45:38 am
I hate it. Petition to remove chadz from devs.
^who else will do this for free?

I love the idea of hiding weapon stats.
^idk people will then just randomly hate on weapons that good players use rather then having any facts to back up there case(then again they do that anyways).........maybe...but still i would hate to not know what the stats of weapons are
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Vibe on September 28, 2011, 10:50:07 am
^who else will do this for free?

This guy. (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php?action=profile;u=698)
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Christo on September 28, 2011, 11:31:52 am
This guy. (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php?action=profile;u=698)

Win
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Snoozer on September 28, 2011, 11:53:24 am
i could not say i would not know if he can code or not so how can i argue?

so i admit defeat per say
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Vibe on September 28, 2011, 11:54:45 am
oh you
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Herald_Hardrata on September 28, 2011, 12:57:49 pm
I've already corrected you on another topic (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,16702.msg237889.html#msg237889). Please stop spreading out your false information about the "turkish Chichak". It doesn't become true the more time you repeat it.
The polish winged hussar capeline in "With Fire and Sword" is from 17.c. not the turkish Chichak.

You came in and shouted "no" about one stupid nit picky detail even though it made no difference regarding the original point of the thread, which I'm not sure you even grasped.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Joker86 on September 28, 2011, 01:23:24 pm
If that is a desired effect or not is subject of a long discussion, I guess.

Well, this is why I opened this topic, so it's okay to discuss it  :wink:


I think one of the biggest issues in cRPG is the fact, that it contains some kind of rock-paper-scissors-system. I say some kind of, because the game was not designed around it but rather around historic medieval warfare. And medieval warfare (or warfare in general) is not designed as rock-paper-scissors, it's more like rock-paper-shotgun, and everyone tries to be the shotgun. This is why I don't like to talk about "counters" in cRPG, never mind if soft or hard, because counters imply some kind of
intention behind them, which is wrong in our case.

What do I mean?

We have several classes in cRPG:

1hd + shield
2hd (halberd, axe, sword, mace)
Polearms (spearlike weapons with stab as main attack)
Crossbowmen
Archers
1hd cavalry
lancers
horse archers
throwers

Now if you would compare the stregthes and weaknesses of all classes against the other ones, give them values on how likely it is to kill the other class (for example from -5 to +5), and add all those values, I bet you would have different results.

For example compare archers to spearmen. An archer basically has good chances against anyone without a shield. Only shields make archers really helpless. In the worst case chances are about even (against crossbowmen and so on)

But now take a spearman, most likely a pikeman with a two slot weapon that can't be sheathed. All he can do really effectively is threatening cavalry (a stopped horse isn't a dead cavalryman neccessarily) and supporting other melee fighters. He is really vulnerable to enemy fire (and we know cRPG is a range fest), and if he is on his own he also has little chances against melee classes, too. So basically only melee cavalry is left. (And now remember that the balancing team planned on removing the block from pikes - no comment needed about their competence...  :? )

So in short: archers have only one weakness (shields), spearmen have only one strength (cavalry).

Things like this, basic balancing issues, can cause a lot of anger and grief, resulting in whining. And I didn't even start about different maps favouring certain classes, and the percentages of map "types" in the rotation.


Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: okiN on September 28, 2011, 01:26:16 pm
Actually, you just said "no" without providing any counter evidence that states that the Turkish version of the Capeline came from an earlier century and then wasted two paragraphs ranting about semantics. I responded to your "correction" and asked you for a credible source that tells us the turks were using their chichak helmets before the 17th. century - you never replied, instead choosing to start stalking me on other threads.

He already gave you that in his first reply.

Do you actually read the links you post?

It's a fair question.

Quote from: the exact same wikipedia page you linked to
Turkish chichak helmets (16th century), ancestral to the later capeline. The cheekpieces are missing on these specimens (Topkapi Museum Istanbul).
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Herald_Hardrata on September 28, 2011, 01:28:15 pm
You're obviously new if you see the game "generally diminishing over time". The stuff we've accomplished with very little resources during the last year are pretty amazing. There are of course shortcomings for example in communicating stuff to the community, but these have had some attention directed at them too during the last few months. "There are no patch notes" is simply not true any more. There are notes and their quality has improved significantly (we actually pay attention to the notes nowadays).

I would like to see you give some proper concrete examples of this diminishing quality or ignoring the community. If your 17th century thing (invalidated elsewhere already) and our refusal to add some Byzantine items really are the biggest problems currently then it seems to me that situation is quite good.

Last patch broke some stuff (like all major version patches) which were then rapidly fixed in the hotfix. As discussed over 9000 times before, the community is also the testing crew. This obviously means some amount of bugs are discovered when thousands of people start poking at the new code, but seeing how most of the major bugs are usually fixed within hours of release makes you seem quite unreasonable to demand more.

Concrete feedback is always appreciated but expectations need to be adjusted to available resources. To me it seems like you're a new player who's used to commercial-grade games with actual paid development and management teams. Also, most commercial teams break stuff too at patch day and release fixes slower than we do despite their paid testing teams and quality assurance policies and whatnot.

(This was more or less directed at the whole community, your post just managed to taunt me into writing an actual reply)

- I started playing when this mod first came out and stopped because of the poor quality with your site, so I've seen the progress you've made in a year, and while yes there's something to be said for it, I feel it's not nearly where it could be, and it feels like the devs have lost their original enthusiasm for the mod. The whole you-don't-know-what-you're-talking-about-because-you're-new argument is such a lazy personal attack, are you seriously going to go that route?

- Glad at least I got a response out of someone, though it's pretty clear you didn't actually bother to go read any of the other threads completely before commenting.

- Last patch broke a lot of stuff. No patch notes that I, or anyone else I talked to the following couple days, had heard of. Where's the official patch notes page? Please provide the url, as I'm guessing a large proportion of the crpg community has no idea what changes until they actually go and play the game.

- If you had actually bothered to keep up with your own game's forums and read the entire thread regarding the chichak helmets, you will see I was the only one to actually provide a credible source on that thread, while the person who "corrected" me just said "no", provided failed to provide a credible source that contradicted my own source, and then started talking semantics and posted a picture as if no one already knew what the helmets looked like. He came in and ignored the original point of the thread, which was to point out the historical inconsistencies of the mod, and based on these inconsistencies, rejecting some armors and accepting others based on historical relevance was hypocritical.

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,16702.0.html
(Please read the entire thread before responding instead of just the first page please.)

- Ignoring the player base. Refusing to add armor with no reasons given. Ujin's case is just one of many, if you want more, just try searching "roman" and do some reading and you'll see a lot of enthusiastic people who aren't trolling who are just ignored.

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,16346.0.html

I won't be surprised if you don't respond to this, as I'm sure you're much more comfortable with one way conversations with  "new" players...
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Herald_Hardrata on September 28, 2011, 01:31:51 pm
Misread the original post. Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: okiN on September 28, 2011, 01:34:30 pm
Wow. Apparently you not only didn't read the full wikipedia article, you're also incapable of reading to the end of my post.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Oberyn on September 28, 2011, 01:34:39 pm
ITT butthurt cause items he wanted didn't get added. I think it's hilarious the way you're talking about cRPG dev's PR as if it's been on a downward spiral, when it pretty much started at the bottom and has sulked there ever since. Booohooo they don't listen to the playerbase. Yes, and they mostly never have, except selectively. That's because most of the playerbase is self-entitled selfish whiners. Just look at this anti-crpg dev crusade of yours as an example. It was set off by the addition of some armors, or more importantly the lack of addition of certain others. That's really the main crux of your whining. You didn't get the toy you wanted, so devs are all meanies who don't listen.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Herald_Hardrata on September 28, 2011, 01:38:00 pm
He already gave you that in his first reply.

It's a fair question.

- Dede completely missed the point of my thread, as it seems everyone else is to.

- This mod has no historical coherence to it. Rejecting Roman armor on the grounds that it doesn't fit the historical feel of the game is bullshit.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Leesin on September 28, 2011, 01:38:24 pm
Well, this is why I opened this topic, so it's okay to discuss it  :wink:


I think one of the biggest issues in cRPG is the fact, that it contains some kind of rock-paper-scissors-system. I say some kind of, because the game was not designed around it but rather around historic medieval warfare. And medieval warfare (or warfare in general) is not designed as rock-paper-scissors, it's more like rock-paper-shotgun, and everyone tries to be the shotgun. This is why I don't like to talk about "counters" in cRPG, never mind if soft or hard, because counters imply some kind of
intention behind them, which is wrong in our case.

What do I mean?

We have several classes in cRPG:

1hd + shield
2hd (halberd, axe, sword, mace)
Polearms (spearlike weapons with stab as main attack)
Crossbowmen
Archers
1hd cavalry
lancers
horse archers
throwers

Now if you would compare the stregthes and weaknesses of all classes against the other ones, give them values on how likely it is to kill the other class (for example from -5 to +5), and add all those values, I bet you would have different results.

For example compare archers to spearmen. An archer basically has good chances against anyone without a shield. Only shields make archers really helpless. In the worst case chances are about even (against crossbowmen and so on)

But now take a spearman, most likely a pikeman with a two slot weapon that can't be sheathed. All he can do really effectively is threatening cavalry (a stopped horse isn't a dead cavalryman neccessarily) and supporting other melee fighters. He is really vulnerable to enemy fire (and we know cRPG is a range fest), and if he is on his own he also has little chances against melee classes, too. So basically only melee cavalry is left. (And now remember that the balancing team planned on removing the block from pikes - no comment needed about their competence...  :? )

So in short: archers have only one weakness (shields), spearmen have only one strength (cavalry).

Things like this, basic balancing issues, can cause a lot of anger and grief, resulting in whining. And I didn't even start about different maps favouring certain classes, and the percentages of map "types" in the rotation.

All builds have their strengths and weaknesses, it's down to the players own skills to make the best of those, whilst on paper I would agree it seems archers have the least weaknesses, it must be remembered that it is all subjective to the situation at hand.

 It is only logical to assume any build with a ranged weapon is going to have an advantage over any build that does not have a ranged weapon, in a ranged situation, up to any distance where the melee guy is not in range to hit the archer.

That being said, I feel right now the balance of the actual builds themselves are pretty decent, ranged builds are always going to dominate a decent portion of the battlefield, because that's just how it is, the only way to ever obtain a 'true' balance is having no ranged builds at all and tbh, that would be boring.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Herald_Hardrata on September 28, 2011, 01:40:03 pm
Wow. Apparently you not only didn't read the full wikipedia article, you're also incapable of reading to the end of my post.

It's 5 in the morning here and I haven't slept yet. Yeah I'm fucking tired, I'm going back and editing what I said now.


Go ahead and discount everything else I've said though. Don't bother reading the rest of that thread.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Joker86 on September 28, 2011, 01:49:39 pm
The Chichak and any similar helmet did NOT exist in the middle ages, they were an invention of the early renaissance. And if gunpowder weapons are not desired in this mod, then the question why helmets from the gunpowder era are, is valid.



All builds have their strengths and weaknesses, it's down to the players own skills to make the best of those, whilst on paper I would agree it seems archers have the least weaknesses, it must be remembered that it is all subjective to the situation at hand.

 It is only logical to assume any build with a ranged weapon is going to have an advantage over any build that does not have a ranged weapon, in a ranged situation, up to any distance where the melee guy is not in range to hit the archer.

That being said, I feel right now the balance of the actual builds themselves are pretty decent, ranged builds are always going to dominate a decent portion of the battlefield, because that's just how it is, the only way to ever obtain a 'true' balance is having no ranged builds at all and tbh, that would be boring.

I would love that. If you want to shoot then go and play Call of Duty, M&B is so special because of its melee system with the speed calculation. Playing Warband to shoot is like playing Serious Sam to sneak around or Splinter Cell to go rampage with the F2000.  :wink:

And yes, of course there are a lot of more factors than only those on the paper, but still my point is valid.

All builds have their strengths and weaknesses, it's down to the players own skills to make the best of those

Yes, but some have more strengthes and/or less weaknesses than others. This would mean, that two players of totally equal skill but with different classes would have different success. Which must not be.

And don't tell me a skilled pikeman or a thrower can have the same success like a skilled cavalryman, 2-hander or archer.  :P
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Ylca on September 28, 2011, 01:53:44 pm
Stats are great because it's an instant way to tell who knows what they're talking about or not. When someone says "hey it's only +3 extra damage not that much" without acknowledging that PS/PD multiply that small change by a great deal one can easily tell they don't know what they're talking about and can be ignored.

e:

Quote
So in short: archers have only one weakness (shields), spearmen have only one strength (cavalry).

Q: What does a dedicated archer do against an equally skilled dedicated melee in melee combat?
A: Get rocked.

I love how you indicate shields are the only weakness archers have without acknowledging that archers are in deseperate need of melee support. How many arrows can you shoot while there is a guy with a spear directly behind you? One if you're lucky. This is the sort of thing i talk about, people make statements that have to do with perceived balance, yet the ignore all sorts of other factors.

Archers weakness is shielders but also, and quite obviously, anyone getting into melee range against them.

Ranged have an advantage at range. Melee  has an advantage in melee- go firgure. To hear some melee talk though you'd think they have no recourse against the horrible archers who are invincible in melee combat and never can be caught or harassed to the point where they can no longer shoot.

Sometimes i feel that i'm playing a different game than some of the people who post.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Teeth on September 28, 2011, 02:25:51 pm
Archers weakness is shielders
I see everyone throwing this one in, but archers are faster than shielders when they hold their shield up. They almost always just run away. Mostly in an outward direction where the cav dominates, and I don't feel like going into the cav alley with my puny 1h. I turn around and he starts shooting me.

I really don't feel like the counter of archers now that I'm a shielder. As a 2h I felt it was easier to kill them, cause they are more compelled to risk their lives for trying to get a few arrows in me. Dodging as a 2h is quite effective and only the best can shoot you down before you reach them. Sure as a shielder I can mess up their game, but killing them, not so much.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Rhombeus on September 28, 2011, 02:26:02 pm
This game is the most frustrating piece of shit ever.  You keep getting killed without you being able to anything. Huge issues get overlooked or accepted. It's the hardest game there is.


I have only been playing this game for 3 months.

It is the hardest battle game I have ever played.

At first I thought it was impossible to play. Then I got a bit better, then a bit more, now I  nearly manage to kill more than I die.
But only after lvl 25 say.

I understand the frustrating comments.

Here is why I love this game and why I feel people moan so much.

After playing games for 25 odd years, I have never played a game where when you are killed it really feels like you have been Killed.
With blade, maces, axes, lances and bows it feels more personal. Getting shot in a game does not feel so personal.

Needless to say this game has ruined it for me playing fps games. I just can't play them anymore.. Guns are for girls lol
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Rhombeus on September 28, 2011, 02:28:47 pm
I see everyone throwing this one in, but archers are faster than shielders when they hold their shield up. They almost always just run away. Mostly in an outward direction where the cav dominates, and I don't feel like going into the cav alley with my puny 1h. I turn around and he starts shooting me.

I really don't feel like the counter of archers now that I'm a shielder. As a 2h I felt it was easier to kill them, cause they are more compelled to risk their lives for trying to get a few arrows in me. Dodging as a 2h is quite effective and only the best can shoot you down before you reach them. Sure as a shielder I can mess up their game, but killing them, not so much.

As they run away and give you their back, you can pull out an xbow or dart, spear whatever and kill them.
You get a choice of weapons, maybe if people didn't specialise so much they could have a more rounded char??
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Joker86 on September 28, 2011, 02:31:03 pm
I love how you indicate shields are the only weakness archers have without acknowledging that archers are in deseperate need of melee support. How many arrows can you shoot while there is a guy with a spear directly behind you? One if you're lucky. This is the sort of thing i talk about, people make statements that have to do with perceived balance, yet the ignore all sorts of other factors.

Archers weakness is shielders but also, and quite obviously, anyone getting into melee range against them.

Ranged have an advantage at range. Melee  has an advantage in melee- go firgure. To hear some melee talk though you'd think they have no recourse against the horrible archers who are invincible in melee combat and never can be caught or harassed to the point where they can no longer shoot.

Sometimes i feel that i'm playing a different game than some of the people who post.

I love how you indicate that melee spawn right behind enemy archers/have a teleport function.

Most of the time on a server archers will NOT have enemy melee fighters within 10m, which means that most of the time your scenario doesn't apply, which means most of the time the ranged fighter has the upper hand.

It's easy as that: have the best archer and the best pikeman spawn on any map which isn't a maze of backalleys or castle hallways, and in most cases the archer will win. Why? Because there is FIRST the distance, THEN the melee. If at all.

Perhaps we can argument about the definition of "weakness", but there are undenyable facts stating that archers are way more versatile in their choice of targets than melee fighters, and that the survival of archers mainly depends on positioning and awareness against flanking "Ninjas"/cavalry and other archers, while the survival of infantry depends on their skills to block and awareness against... EVERYTHING?

I see everyone throwing this one in, but archers are faster than shielders when they hold their shield up. They almost always just run away. Mostly in an outward direction where the cav dominates, and I don't feel like going into the cav alley with my puny 1h. I turn around and he starts shooting me.

I really don't feel like the counter of archers now that I'm a shielder. As a 2h I felt it was easier to kill them, cause they are more compelled to risk their lives for trying to get a few arrows in me. Dodging as a 2h is quite effective and only the best can shoot you down before you reach them. Sure as a shielder I can mess up their game, but killing them, not so much.

This is just another point how the archer's "weakness" is to be defined: you just can't harm him, because most of the time he can't harm you either.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Christo on September 28, 2011, 02:33:14 pm
As they run away and give you their back, you can pull out an xbow or dart, spear whatever and kill them.
You get a choice of weapons, maybe if people didn't specialise so much they could have a more rounded char??

Haha. Were you here at the era where everyone was a hybrid of some-sort?

There was a patch that just gave the finger to specialists. Imagine the battlefield where EVERYONE had a crapton of throwing weapons to backpeddle with (mostly shielders who you couldn't kill even up close), or everyone had an arbalest.

From experience I say that the "lolwearehybrids" era of cRPG was one of the worst.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Teeth on September 28, 2011, 02:36:07 pm
Ranged have an advantage at range. Melee  has an advantage in melee- go firgure. To hear some melee talk though you'd think they have no recourse against the horrible archers who are invincible in melee combat and never can be caught or harassed to the point where they can no longer shoot.

Sometimes i feel that i'm playing a different game than some of the people who post.
I have no recourse against the horrible archers who are invincible in melee combat and never can be caught or harassed to the point where they can no longer shoot.

I don't know how things go in battle at the other side of the ocean, but in EU 1, there is almost always a roof that is being camped. Ranged roofcampers exactly fit the above sentence. I do not understand the slightest why ladders haven't been removed from battle.

Also the way things go in EU might be considerably different from the way things go in NA, not every aspect of the game is the same. Like roofcamping for instance, in my roofcamping whine thread I saw a lot of NA that didnt think there was an issue.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Ylca on September 28, 2011, 02:46:53 pm
Man i guess all those rounds where i watch as mostly melee/cav duke it out or the lone archer gets run into the ground are flukes then. Who knew that when i played a shielder and laughed as i advanced on archers I was actually one of the most competent shielders in all of CRPG.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Dexxtaa on September 28, 2011, 02:51:44 pm
Farmer Nate.

That is all.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: v/onMega on September 28, 2011, 03:12:01 pm
Whine:

Total lag of "personal component".

You type / whine towards your screen, not to a person in real life.

I want to see Panos whining the way he does online.....in RL...hahaha

Huge difference. Huuuuuuuuge difference.

Gamewhise:

You start playing, you like the game, you are overwhelmed, you take many things as a given fact.

The more you play, the more you are able to determine if things are unbalanced, how balance or gameplay have changed....and most crucial...how things maybe have gone for the worse in your own opinion.

Now, mankind is always the strongest in telling HOW BAD THINGS GO OR WENT FOR HIM....

If u take all this into account, maybe add that people tend to go for easy, temporarily overpowered solutions...you ll get certain groups:

The ones refusing to go for something unbalanced --> whining about it

The ones actually using unbalanced stuff till it gets changed -> the next group to start whining.

A third group that actually is pissed about everything and everybody and forgot why they play the game......or basically is just mentally retarded (maybe as an addition). Constant whine.

Its a circle.
A thing which is living in perfect symbiosis with the on going process of BALANCING.

We all know, there is no perfect balance.

So whine will always be a part...always.

Last but not least there surely is a huuuuuuge part of ppl. you wont see or notice:

Ppl. that quietly enjoy the game and wont get noticed :-)
Humanbeings tend to keep good feelings for themselfs (to busy enjoying mostly)

(Tell 10 ppl. bout something good, maybe 2 will remeber and spread the news

Tell 10 ppl. something that went wrong, they ll spread it 100 times.)


Its just the whine that gets into public, hence this is what you notice...but the situation surely isnt as bad as you could think xD
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Gorath on September 28, 2011, 04:33:35 pm
One thing I do find funny is how some people *coughGORATHcough* seem to believe that a certain class *coughRANGEDcough* has a certain mentality that is exclusive only to those players *coughPUSSIEScough*.

The truth hurts eh?
However I don't believe it's exclusive, and it's not "pussies" it's "bundle of stickss".  You could at least get it right.   :wink:
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 28, 2011, 04:59:54 pm
Not adding roman items is a lie.
Last patch added a Eastern Roman Empire (AKA Byzantine if you want to use the out dated term) helmet. We also have an extremely small selection of other gear used by them as well.

The reason why you do not see Classical Roman Empire gear is.... how many times do I have to explain this?
It shows skin.
Think on it.
If someone makes Classical Roman Empire armour, and I put it on my main, due to the way armor is textured, I will have white legs and arms, but a black face and feet and hands. Armor in warband does not overlap your Character body, nor lay on top of it. It replaces it entirely, so if you want the armor to show skin then you have to draw on the skin.

This is the same reason why you do not see Kilts in this game, and never will.

Watch as I will have to repeat this again next month, Like I do every month, to the exact same people...

TL:DR
You don't get the stuff you want because Coding is harder then you think, so shush.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: dreadnok on September 28, 2011, 05:13:30 pm
Whining happens more when people can't easily change and adapt their build and equipment to what they whine about.

In Native, there is whining about the amount of ranged because some players want to play melee yet it's not optimal, even for them. In cRPG, on top of that you have the char inertia. You can't switch class like in Native, thus the whine is worse.

you cant adapt to bullshit mechanics. christ how many people run around with a polearm, theres a reason. also on native people complain about archers vbecause there machine guns and absolutely silly as shit.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 28, 2011, 05:15:00 pm
As many people run around with a two hander as they do a polearm, counting even cavalry. Server statistics show near identical percentage of kills for both...

How is that making polearms over powered?

Even one handers come very close, which makes sense for balance as they trade offensive power for defensive capabilities.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Herald_Hardrata on September 28, 2011, 05:27:03 pm
Not adding roman items is a lie.
Last patch added a Eastern Roman Empire (AKA Byzantine if you want to use the out dated term) helmet. We also have an extremely small selection of other gear used by them as well.

The reason why you do not see Classical Roman Empire gear is.... how many times do I have to explain this?
It shows skin.
Think on it.
If someone makes Classical Roman Empire armour, and I put it on my main, due to the way armor is textured, I will have white legs and arms, but a black face and feet and hands. Armor in warband does not overlap your Character body, nor lay on top of it. It replaces it entirely, so if you want the armor to show skin then you have to draw on the skin.

This is the same reason why you do not see Kilts in this game, and never will.

Watch as I will have to repeat this again next month, Like I do every month, to the exact same people...

TL:DR
You don't get the stuff you want because Coding is harder then you think, so shush.


You can put a black or red linen shirt under the roman armor if it's really a big deal. I'm sure it'd look fine. (add long sleeves, really not that hard a work around...)
http://getasword.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Roman-legions-lorica-segmentata-vs-chain-armor.jpg

It looks like it's already been done anyway. I didn't see any black characters but I'm sure you could make a model option for each skin type, wouldn't be that hard once you have the thing built, just a matter of changing texture colors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w0B2LL6IPA


Considering how big the Byzantine empire was during the middle ages, only having one poorly named helmet that the current patch actually caused to no longer show up is pretty ridiculous. I guess if you count the cataphract horses and some of the generic lammellar armor horses that's a couple more items, but there isn't very much that's actually specifically Byzantine. The Byzantine army was highly advanced, with some of the best military technology and arms until the Ottomans came around, it only makes sense they should be paid more credit considering their role in history.

I'm not familiar with the armor design process for this mod, but I doubt there's any hardcore coding involved. Maybe modifying a few stats in notepad, and working with a 3-D modelling tool (I've used solid works before, so I have a grasp on how those work), but I doubt it's really that complicated, just time consuming.
 
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Leesin on September 28, 2011, 05:34:16 pm



I would love that. If you want to shoot then go and play Call of Duty, M&B is so special because of its melee system with the speed calculation. Playing Warband to shoot is like playing Serious Sam to sneak around or Splinter Cell to go rampage with the F2000.  :wink:

And yes, of course there are a lot of more factors than only those on the paper, but still my point is valid.

Yes, but some have more strengthes and/or less weaknesses than others. This would mean, that two players of totally equal skill but with different classes would have different success. Which must not be.

And don't tell me a skilled pikeman or a thrower can have the same success like a skilled cavalryman, 2-hander or archer.  :P

How exactly are you determining this success? in my eyes success is when your team wins, not how high your k/d is. As a pikeman, bringing down or halting cavalry is a major part of your job, regardless of what your k/d is, you can still be a very successful pikeman and have a very average k/d.

K/D does not judge how successful everyone is IMO, just because someone on the scoreboard has say a 14-2 score, chances are he would have not got alot of those kills if it wasn't for a team mate or many other factors that are produced by the actions of his team. There are plenty of people who have wounded, trapped, halted other players for them to be killed in the first place.

Same with a thrower, you get cavalry coming to the side of your force, he will avoid the pikes, but once he starts getting heavy throwing axes in his horse it'll either die or he'll retreat, that in my opinion, is success.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Kafein on September 28, 2011, 05:37:26 pm
The thing that people forget about counters is that in cRPG they are extremely situational.

When a cav is charging towards an unaware archer, he obviously is the counter to that archer. However, when the cav is 100m away and has no way to reach the archer alive, then the archer is obviously the counter to cav.

The same goes for every class vs any other class.



On another topic, I see Ylca failed to answer my little test with facts from the game.

When the round ends in 2 shielders vs 2 archers, what can happen ?

1° each shielder follows one archer. Each archer shoots the shielder following the other archer. Shielders die.

2° Both shielders concentrate on one archer. As they are slowed down by the shield weight, they can run all they want but they will never force the archers to move somewhere, especially the one they aren't following. Even if both shielders protect each other, the free archer can still come close, aim carefully for the shielder not facing him and bam.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Siiem on September 28, 2011, 05:38:40 pm

A third group that actually is pissed about everything and everybody

 :(
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: The_Angle on September 28, 2011, 06:15:36 pm
This whole thread is the epitome of all of the cRPG whine. I swear.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Espu on September 28, 2011, 06:17:52 pm
- I started playing when this mod first came out and stopped because of the poor quality with your site, so I've seen the progress you've made in a year, and while yes there's something to be said for it, I feel it's not nearly where it could be, and it feels like the devs have lost their original enthusiasm for the mod. The whole you-don't-know-what-you're-talking-about-because-you're-new argument is such a lazy personal attack, are you seriously going to go that route?

Sure, other devs might have got a lot further, some not even this far. Speculating on what could have been is not very beneficial, better would be to provide useful feedback about what could be done better in the future (hint: saying something sucks is not useful feedback).

If you make a ridiculous claim about things going generally downhill when they obviously have not, what do you expect to receive in reply? A detailed report of stuff that has improved in the last year?


- Last patch broke a lot of stuff. No patch notes that I, or anyone else I talked to the following couple days, had heard of. Where's the official patch notes page? Please provide the url, as I'm guessing a large proportion of the crpg community has no idea what changes until they actually go and play the game.

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/board,31.0.html

Patchnotes and 30 pages of discussion about 0.240. Patchnotes for 0.241 (2 hours after the patch) with 17 pages of discussion.

(click to show/hide)

Well done ignoring the point of my reply (unrealistic expectations, limited resources, indie mod vs. commercial, community as testers) and focusing on the helmet/roman item issue which I was trying to leave to a sidetrack with a simple mention cause I really don't see it's relevance in the big picture. Some items have been added, some have not. You seem to mistake "the people" to the loud minority that posts all kinds of requests to various boards and then gets mad when they are not all implemented.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Ylca on September 28, 2011, 06:28:27 pm
On another topic, I see Ylca failed to answer my little test with facts from the game.

Wow, i answer your question and you move the goalposts. Way to middle school debate it up there buddy.

"Oh you answered it, but your answer didn't support my point so your answer was wrong." Doesn't work that way, buddy.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Snoozer on September 28, 2011, 06:41:49 pm
im off subject but where are these statistics you speak of? i would love to see them i nevernew such a thing existed

back to subject its perception, i did not make that one clear as well. because of different perceptive's we have different views (ex like a shielder has different priorities then a pole arm therefore different successes and challenges)
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 28, 2011, 06:43:18 pm
Fasader has posted server statistics a couple of times, check through his posts and you shouldfind them, or ask for a new set from him.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Joker86 on September 28, 2011, 06:51:24 pm
How exactly are you determining this success? in my eyes success is when your team wins, not how high your k/d is. As a pikeman, bringing down or halting cavalry is a major part of your job, regardless of what your k/d is, you can still be a very successful pikeman and have a very average k/d.

K/D does not judge how successful everyone is IMO, just because someone on the scoreboard has say a 14-2 score, chances are he would have not got alot of those kills if it wasn't for a team mate or many other factors that are produced by the actions of his team. There are plenty of people who have wounded, trapped, halted other players for them to be killed in the first place.

Same with a thrower, you get cavalry coming to the side of your force, he will avoid the pikes, but once he starts getting heavy throwing axes in his horse it'll either die or he'll retreat, that in my opinion, is success.

I appreciate very much that you are not one of those who say "only players with a good k/d are good players" (and there are many who think this way), but nonetheless killing someone is a central part of the fun in cRPG, and ultimatively it wins you the round. Noone likes to be the "helper", at least not all the time. Of course Frankenstein could never have created artificial life without his Igor, but still Frankenstein is the Genius and Igor is the hunchbacked servant.

This makes me wonder about the "balancing"-team deciding to take way the blocking ability from pikes. Do they want to demote an entire class even more to "dependand extras" in the battle? Having to stick to others all the time, hoping they can defend you, and once a cavalryman approaches it's your job to stop the horse or bring it down and then watch your protector finishing off the fallen enemy? And on the other hand buffing the archers, who can basically attack anyone whenever they want, unless he hides somewhere or keeps up his shield, which makes him harmless for all of his enemies while doing so. And often enough they can be immune to 50-66% of all players by camping on a roof without ladder, unless the round is close to an end. All of this for the tradeoff of having to watch out (sometimes) for enemies approaching and probably killing you in melee. Really, developers?
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Ylca on September 28, 2011, 06:54:47 pm
Having to stick to others all the time, hoping they can defend you,

You just described a day in the life of a dedicated archer. A lone archer is a dead archer. Same goes with dedicate crossbowmen, though to a much lesser extent since they often actually have points left over to put into PS so they can actually hurt people in melee instead of simply blocking and frantically searching for an escape route.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: v/onMega on September 28, 2011, 07:00:26 pm
:(

I count me and you in mostly.... Xant 100% xD
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Dede on September 28, 2011, 07:09:17 pm
@Herald_Hardrata
- Dede completely missed the point of my thread, as it seems everyone else is to.

- This mod has no historical coherence to it. Rejecting Roman armor on the grounds that it doesn't fit the historical feel of the game is bullshit.

Well the title of your topic was:
Quote
You guys do know that what we have as the "Chichak" hemets are from 17c. right?

And I wrote "no" and have also explained why its wrong.

Well hope this sources are enough for you (15.c.):
(click to show/hide)


This is from the panoramic Museum 1453 from Istanbul:
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7752/panorama145301.jpg
(click to show/hide)
Source: http://www.panoramikmuze.com/en/index.php


This is the Hussar helmet, you are confusing it with.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thoog/1430262415/


And as for the Byzantine models, I dont think the devs are against them.
It just takes to long to get the items added.That would be the only thing I could criticize.

If I had enough time, I would also love to model some Byzantine items.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Joker86 on September 28, 2011, 07:40:26 pm
You just described a day in the life of a dedicated archer. A lone archer is a dead archer.

You still don't give it up, do you?

A dedicated archer can still shoot anybody who is approaching him over distance, while a pikeman can't do anything but either wait or charge himself. (next to the option for both to run away, where the archer will have the better chances again). Let alone if the attack does not contain mele but... range?
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Herald_Hardrata on September 28, 2011, 07:41:30 pm
@Herald_Hardrata
Well the title of your topic was:
And I wrote "no" and have also explained why its wrong.

Well hope this sources are enough for you (15.c.):
(click to show/hide)


This is from the panoramic Museum 1453 from Istanbul:
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7752/panorama145301.jpg
(click to show/hide)
Source: http://www.panoramikmuze.com/en/index.php


This is the Hussar helmet, you are confusing it with.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thoog/1430262415/


And as for the Byzantine models, I dont think the devs are against them.
It just takes to long to get the items added.That would be the only thing I could criticize.

If I had enough time, I would also love to model some Byzantine items.

These look great. It sure looks like a Byzantine cataphract. Did the Ottoman's use cataphracts?
I'm not seeing any "lobster tails" on the turkish examples you've provided though. Do you have any with them, because if I remember correctly the item models in game have lobster tails (the segmented neck piece on the rear of the helmet).

Sorry if I titled my original post in a confusing way, I was just trying to make the point that we were using helmets from a period much later than the medieval period and warband is originally a medieval themed game 1257 c.e. if I remember correctly. Sense I didn't read the captions on the pictures for the wikipedia article, I didn't see that the turks had been using the chichak helmet for a while before it was adopted by Europeans in the 17th c. My bad.

More Byzantine armor would be very nice to see in this game, I agree 100% with you there. Some seljuke Turkish items along with more mamluk armor would be pretty cool as well (the stock armor is nice, but it would look really nice with enhanced textures, shimmering with diamonds the way they're described from historical accounts instead of just that dull grey color).

Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: The_Angle on September 28, 2011, 07:42:36 pm
This man is obsessed with the Chichak.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 28, 2011, 07:43:18 pm
It is a pretty big deal.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Kafein on September 28, 2011, 08:46:17 pm
This man is obsessed with the Chichak.

It's sad. (http://twitter.com/#!/chichak)
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Brrrak on September 28, 2011, 11:10:18 pm
It's sad. (http://twitter.com/#!/chichak)

Words do not express my mad.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Snoozer on September 28, 2011, 11:30:17 pm
You still don't give it up, do you?

A dedicated archer can still shoot anybody who is approaching him over distance, while a pikeman can't do anything but either wait or charge himself. (next to the option for both to run away, where the archer will have the better chances again). Let alone if the attack does not contain mele but... range?

yes yes....i think understand archers shoot arrows from far away.....and in order to make them stop you must.....kill them? that is the equivalent or archers saying

 "DONT YOU GET IT MELEE HIT YOU WHEN THEY ARE CLOSE TO YOU THE ONLY THING YOU CAN DO IS SHOOT THEM FROM FAR AWAY!!!!!!!!!"

maybe its because i left or i am on medication but something is wrong in your argument but i am certain you will explain my void and null logic in explicit detail.....
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Bryggan on September 29, 2011, 01:00:28 am
yes yes....i think understand archers shoot arrows from far away.....and in order to make them stop you must.....kill them? that is the equivalent or archers saying

 "DONT YOU GET IT MELEE HIT YOU WHEN THEY ARE CLOSE TO YOU THE ONLY THING YOU CAN DO IS SHOOT THEM FROM FAR AWAY!!!!!!!!!"

maybe its because i left or i am on medication but something is wrong in your argument but i am certain you will explain my void and null logic in explicit detail.....

It's always a good feeling to flank archers and send them running into my comrade's arms- unless they're on a rooftop without a ladder.  As for pikemen, can't they drop their pike for a minute and attack with an awlpike or something? Re-equip it after you manage to kill your attackers?  And, not sure about this, but do you need much polearm profficiency to stop a horse?  If not, switch to one or two handers and kill.  Re-equip pike after.  Rinse and repeat.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Gristle on September 29, 2011, 01:17:41 am
I sometimes bring a pike (with 0 wpf) to stop horses, and switch to sword & board when it's time to melee fight. Not hard at all to pick it back up again. Also, pikes can still block.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Dede on September 29, 2011, 01:21:18 am
@Herald_Hardrata
These look great. It sure looks like a Byzantine cataphract. Did the Ottoman's use cataphracts?
The ottoman heavy cav looked like the mamluk horse in cRPG.
(click to show/hide)
The central asian turk/persian empires usen cataphracts (for example the Timurid dynasty).
Most of the Eastern Empires used similar Weapons and Equipment and have also influenced each other.

I'm not seeing any "lobster tails" on the turkish examples you've provided though. Do you have any with them, because if I remember correctly the item models in game have lobster tails (the segmented neck piece on the rear of the helmet).
There are many different version of this helmet. Some of them have lobster tails, and some are single plated. I have listed the ones that I found from google in an image file.(most of them are ottoman, some russian and one magyar)
(click to show/hide)

This is the Mughal version:
(click to show/hide)

Sorry if I titled my original post in a confusing way, I was just trying to make the point that we were using helmets from a period much later than the medieval period and warband is originally a medieval themed game 1257 c.e. if I remember correctly.
I didnt play native Warband that much, and I am not in a position to say what timeperiod cRPG is about, but the medieval timeperiod is from 5c.to the 15c.
And we already have many plated body armors and weapons, which belong to the time after the 13 th.Century. I think nobody wants them removed?
The only thing that I dont want to see in this mod would be gunpowder weapons.

More Byzantine armor would be very nice to see in this game, I agree 100% with you there. Some seljuke Turkish items along with more mamluk armor would be pretty cool as well (the stock armor is nice, but it would look really nice with enhanced textures, shimmering with diamonds the way they're described from historical accounts instead of just that dull grey color).
Yeah, hope we can see Byzantine items along with other new stuff in the next patch.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Oberyn on September 29, 2011, 01:24:09 am
Cataphracts are much older even. Scythians and Parthians in antiquity. Roughly equivalent to Roman Empire times.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Herald_Hardrata on September 29, 2011, 01:53:51 am
Cataphracts are much older even. Scythians and Parthians in antiquity. Roughly equivalent to Roman Empire times.

Yeah, I think Parthian Cataphracts were my favorite units when I played Rome Total War. I wish taleworld would go back a period and do classical combat.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Joker86 on September 29, 2011, 03:41:38 am
yes yes....i think understand archers shoot arrows from far away.....and in order to make them stop you must.....kill them? that is the equivalent or archers saying

 "DONT YOU GET IT MELEE HIT YOU WHEN THEY ARE CLOSE TO YOU THE ONLY THING YOU CAN DO IS SHOOT THEM FROM FAR AWAY!!!!!!!!!"

maybe its because i left or i am on medication but something is wrong in your argument but i am certain you will explain my void and null logic in explicit detail.....

I won't discuss any longer to people who are somehow biased. There is a reason why ranged fighting finally got the upper hand in warfare, and in this case you can very well use real life as argument. Killing someone over range has some undeniable advantages.

I think my point of view can be described best by one fact, from which you can easily lead to all my other arguments:

People are meant to play as much as possible. Spending a lot of time in the spectator screen doesn't really mean you are playing. That's one of the reason why I hate if people delay a round, even if they have a chance to win, because imho a won round for one team < more time to play for both teams. Following this philosophy, and concerning that Warband is a fighting game, only fighting represents "real" playing.

During a round, an archer can spend much more time actually fighting than an infantryman. From which all the other benefits archers have, derive.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Thucydides on September 29, 2011, 03:51:16 am
I won't discuss any longer to people who are somehow biased. There is a reason why ranged fighting finally got the upper hand in warfare, and in this case you can very well use real life as argument. Killing someone over range has some undeniable advantages.

I think my point of view can be described best by one fact, from which you can easily lead to all my other arguments:

People are meant to play as much as possible. Spending a lot of time in the spectator screen doesn't really mean you are playing. That's one of the reason why I hate if people delay a round, even if they have a chance to win, because imho a won round for one team < more time to play for both teams. Following this philosophy, and concerning that Warband is a fighting game, only fighting represents "real" playing.

During a round, an archer can spend much more time actually fighting than an infantryman. From which all the other benefits archers have, derive.

Thats only because infantrymen can't destroy the archer's home and slaughter their families. We'll see how long he runs when we threaten his livelihood!
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Snoozer on September 29, 2011, 11:20:33 pm
how am i biased to archers?im a polearm i messed with range but unless u go pure u cant do shit with it
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Joker86 on September 30, 2011, 12:05:29 am
Yes, but as soon as you go pure you can intervene into the fight... well, not neccessarily better, I would say "more"... that's what I am poiting at mostly. It leaves you more choices.

The other thing I menitoned, that a Pikeman will probably always have worse stats than an equally skilled other class is not the problem of the archery which I took as an example, it's a problem of the pikeman as class itself.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Leshma on September 30, 2011, 12:09:05 am
This man is obsessed with the Chichak.

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Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Kafein on September 30, 2011, 12:27:20 am
Thats only because infantrymen can't destroy the archer's home and slaughter their families. We'll see how long he runs when we threaten his livelihood!

I'd like to see this implemented. Some sort of social network shit mixed up with the mod.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on September 30, 2011, 12:48:01 am
People rage because they simply can.

It's not like raging to Blizzard or something, but on cRPG, they know chadz can do something about it if they whine hard enough.

this.

and whining is sorta of fashion here. back in warband beta there was threads about game balance. people argued and debated balance between playstyles to see their favorite gameplay buffed. nothing changed, nothing will ever change.

oh and the fact chadz and devs actually are worried about balance and try to improve the game by trying good points from the community, parse kill stats, average k/d of a certain build/weapon, keeps improving and polishing the mod (most of the time).

and we're taking this game so much seriously that some people need to try to light some "flaws" or "gamebreaking" gameplay parts.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Prpavi on September 30, 2011, 03:27:10 pm
We whine because we care and want to stay, much better than just quitting in silence.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: The_Angle on September 30, 2011, 04:41:50 pm
We whine because we care and want to stay, much better than just quitting in silence.
This.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Blondin on September 30, 2011, 05:00:50 pm
I guess because it's a beta, and devs ask for feedback, so feedback could be positive but could be whiny.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Rogue_Eagle on September 30, 2011, 10:48:46 pm
I think if we listened to the whiners all the time we'd have noone left playing.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Kafein on September 30, 2011, 10:51:56 pm
We whine because we care and want to stay, much better than just quitting in silence.

This. Be happy, we actually give a shit about the mod. Whining about it is the best proof of love
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Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Nasturtium on October 01, 2011, 05:42:19 am
The reason there is so much whining in crpg is because the devs are not pro game devs by any stretch of the imagination, and as such the game is a diamond in the rough. As such, the devs listen to the whiners, wich makes them whine even more.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: HistorianDude on October 01, 2011, 07:05:16 pm
I do not whine as an archer because I expect to get mowed down as an archer. If I don't get horribly destroyed, I consider that a win. I consider it a mega win if I have in some small way ASSISTED in the team's killing (i.e. taking out a horse, wounding armored guys, etc.)

Hence, no whining. It's not because of UBER, it's because of a different (team-oriented) mindset.

OK, I should say, very little whining. I will whine a bit if the nerf is so bad I can't help the team at all, because then it starts to feel like salt in the wound.

Edit to add:

I'm a bit confused about the OP in this thread. I was very impressed with the opening discussion, it seemed fair and asked some fair questions. Then as the thread progressed, the OP took the opportunity to whine about archers, with arguments that really showed me that the OP doesn't understand at all what it is like to be a dedicated archer. At least it did prove to me some of the early thoughts about what generates whine are true - that mostly it is about ignorance and/or misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Why is there so much whining in cRPG?
Post by: Uther Pendragon on May 03, 2013, 01:53:06 pm
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This game is the most frustrating piece of shit ever.  You keep getting killed without you being able to anything. Huge issues get overlooked or accepted. It's the hardest game there is.