cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Jago on January 29, 2011, 05:58:04 pm

Title: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 29, 2011, 05:58:04 pm
Bastard Sword
Price 3086
weight 1.8
requirement 9
spd rtng 99
weapon length 101
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 23 pierce
Secondary Mode

Katana
Price 8212
weight 1.25
requirement 9
spd rtng 102
weapon length 95
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 18 pierce

Hand and a half swords all provide the same leverage, use the same swinging techniques, and are similarly balanced, at least in Mount and Blade. By comparing the weight of the swords to each other, we can determine their speed, or vice versa. Differences in length can also effect the speed of the sword.

The ratio between the weight of the katana and the bastard sword is approximately 0.6944. Using that ratio to find the katana's speed in relation to the bastard sword, we find a speed of 142.56. A speed of 102 is much less than the expected speed of 142.56.

The ration between the speed of the katana and the bastard sword is approximately 1.03. Using this ration to find the weight of the katana in relation to the bastard sword, we find a weight of approximately 1.7475. A weight of 1.25 is much less than the expected weight of 1.7475.

The length of the katana is also 6 cm shorter than the bastard sword. The shorter length of the katana should make it have a slightly higher efficeincy ratio than the bastard sword. By dividing the length of the katana by the length of the bastard sword, and then dividing 1 by the quotient, we can find the expected efficeincy ratio of the katana. It is approximately 1.063. By dividing the actual weight or speed value by the expected value, we can determine the actual efficeincy ratio of the weapon. The actual efficeincy ratio of the katana is 0.715. The katana is 34.8% less efficeint than the bastard sword.

The katana is more than 2.5 times as expensive as the bastard sword, and is only 71.5% as efficeint. The katana is a far worse sword than the bastard sword and is more than twice as expensive.


Weight of Bastard Sword * speed ratio * efficeincy ratio = katana weight of 1.97

If we restrict the weight of the katana to that of the bastard sword, we get a speed rating of 105.

Katana 3086
weight 1.97
requirement 9
spd rtng 102
weapon length 95
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 18 pierce

Katana 3086
weight 1.8
requirement 9
spd rtng 105
weapon length 95
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 18 pierce

Either of these two katanas are balanced in relation to the bastard sword, except for thrust damage, which also should be higher for the katana do to its higher speed and heavier weight. Does the katana have a rubber ball on the tip? By multiplying the weight and speed ratios of the katana to bastard sword with the thrust damage of the bastard sword, we get a thrust damage of roughly 26.

Either of the two katanas below are balanced in relation to the bastard sword. Still though, the bastard sword does have a secondary use mode while the katana does not. This should also be addressed at some point.

Katana 3086
weight 1.8
requirement 9
spd rtng 105
weapon length 95
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce

Katana 3086
weight 1.97
requirement 9
spd rtng 102
weapon length 95
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: serpus on January 29, 2011, 06:04:31 pm
This.  This is the nerdiest fucking thread.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Thtb on January 29, 2011, 06:30:06 pm
His math is wrong, so combined with Serpus statement, double fail good sir.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Punisher on January 29, 2011, 06:39:05 pm
Deal with it.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 29, 2011, 07:34:35 pm
I already had this thread. But the speed was increased by 1 so I can't complain too much.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Dunecat on January 29, 2011, 07:46:23 pm
I think there will be always someone, complaining about katanas, due to popularity of this weapon.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Memento_Mori on January 29, 2011, 07:51:14 pm
26 pierce on the katana that'd be hilarious, katana is fine, if you want to buff it just lower it's cost a tiny bit more. But really I think it's quite alright the way it is, 8k is a little expensive but that is the price of style :P
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: EponiCo on January 29, 2011, 08:50:47 pm
Zen question:
How fast can you swing when you are not holding a sword at all?
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Brutal on January 29, 2011, 11:07:08 pm
My conclusion from OP  0.17weight = 3 speed  :shock: what the....


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Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 03:19:27 am
Hopefully my post will be seen by a developer who can understand what I have written.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Patricia on January 30, 2011, 03:30:12 am
By this logic I suggest we change the katana to 500 blunt damage but reduce the speed rating to 1.

What I'm getting at is you try to look at stuff too much with "ratio", sure in RATIO both weapons are different but as actual weapons in technical details or whatever they're pretty different.

it would be gay if weapons had to go by a certain ratio so le't say:

this weapon has 100 cut and 50 speed
so this weapon should have 50 cut and 100 speed to be equal, or something.

I'll just go the asshole way and tell you to learn to play, I can kill and do decently with a practice longsword so why you would complain about the katana is over me, implying 102 speed isn't enough to begin with for a 2 hander.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 03:48:05 am
Most of what you wrote is garbage. The one point that swords are different, is addressed in the first paragraph of my post.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: cmp on January 30, 2011, 04:00:25 am
Hopefully my post will be seen by a developer who can understand what I have written.

Sorry, we don't do balance by math. Also, your "formula" is questionable at best.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Tristan on January 30, 2011, 04:05:04 am
I felt like commenting on this thread. Just really don't know what to say... either like... no.. just... wait... rly? or...

I am just going with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYuA2KD7jpA&feature=related
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 04:12:11 am
Don't balance by math? Then what can you balance on. The entire game is run on math. There has not been a single insightful or constructive comment made by the community to my post. Just a bunch of groundless statements.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: cmp on January 30, 2011, 04:18:34 am
Don't balance by math? Then what can you balance on. The entire game is run on math. There has not been a single insightful or constructive comment made by the community to my post. Just a bunch of groundless statements.

Certainly not the kind of math that says a katana should have a speed of 142. :lol:
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Fasader on January 30, 2011, 04:19:06 am
okay, next patch katana 142 speed. only fair. also, most of the <1.25 weight weapons getting 150+ speed
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 04:30:47 am
I can swing a weapon that weighs half as much as another much quicker. Your strawmen arguements can not change the laws of physics.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Vexus on January 30, 2011, 04:32:18 am
This is a game not reality.

Balances are made around fairness not what physics says.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 04:32:37 am
Physics is fair.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Tristan on January 30, 2011, 04:33:40 am
Jago... You win this years price for best troll post.

YOu are awarded this price because:

1) you worked hard (math and stuff)
2) We almost believed you
3) I lolled in the end!
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 04:35:29 am
Another garbage post that contributes nothing. Slightly creative, but joking around at my expense doesn't prove anything.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: EponiCo on January 30, 2011, 05:40:13 am
If physics would just say it in the first place.
But let's be fair, make the katana and bastard sword competitive. How about this:

Katana
3086
weight 1.8
requirement 9
spd rtng 99
weapon length 101
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 23 pierce
Secondary Mode (Sepuku Mode, the katana is so sharp you'd just hurt yourself while halfswording)
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: POOPHAMMER on January 30, 2011, 05:48:52 am
You sound like a butthurt loser
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Gorath on January 30, 2011, 06:26:07 am
Certainly not the kind of math that says a katana should have a speed of 142. :lol:

This

Good troll though.  *By your math my military cleaver should be omfgodly*
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Kalam on January 30, 2011, 06:35:13 am
You're forgetting curvature and whatever else makes katanas harder for the run of the mill player to block, in addition to the fact that it snakes around shields with the ease of a polearm.

That, that's priceless.

And why I'd use a katana over a bastard sword.

Also: Prophecy of Pendor seems to have the highest speed weapons of any mod I've played. Raising any speed past 110 brings us into the realm of 'omfg, my only way to deal with this is back pedal and spam more'.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 07:46:31 am
Some actual discussion about the mathematics of the system would be good.  Explain how the system works and how my analysis is wrong and I will listen. Be constructive, not condescending, and I will listen. Please don't be insulting.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Mattressi on January 30, 2011, 08:18:55 am
By comparing the weight of the swords to each other, we can determine their speed, or vice versa. Differences in length can also effect the speed of the sword.

No, you cannot. Grab a pen (do it!) and swing it as fast as you can through the air. Now, grab 5 pens (same make/model) and swing them through the air. Did you swing 5 times slower? Our arms have a maximum speed at which they can swing. At low weights your arm will swing objects at roughly the same speed. Even if your muscles were able to contract at an infinite speed (again, they cannot), you'd need to take the weight of your arm(s) into account (including armor).

These sources (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/262346.html) indicate that the average weight of a human arm is 5% of the person's body weight. The average male weighs around 190 lbs (let's keep it in the ridiculous Imperial system because I believe that's the units Mount and Blade uses for weight). That means the average arm weighs 9.5 lbs. That means two human arms weigh 19 lbs. So, the ratio of the moving weight difference between the katana and the bastard sword is ACTUALLY 19 + 1.8 vs 19 + 1.25. That gives a ratio of 1.0272, which means the speed of the katana (given the bastard sword has a speed of 99) should be approximately 101.7 (102 rounded up). Obviously this speed difference would reduce further as more weight is added to the arm due to armor.


This is completely ignoring that your concept of physics is "it is heavier, therefore slower". Grab a hammer by the head and flick it with your wrist. How fast does it swing? Now, grab the hammer by the bottom of the handle and flick it with your wrist. Notice that it swings considerably slower? Weight distribution greatly affects the speed of an object being swung.

As for the thrust; have you ever tried stabbing a tree with an axe (as in, grab it by the head and push)? Try the same thing with a knife (real knife, not a kitchen one, lest you break it). You'll notice the knife penetrates much further. The katana was designed for cutting, while hand and a half swords were designed for cutting AND stabbing. They have a very pointed tip, while the katana essentially has a a cutting edge for a tip. Because the bastard sword's tip has a much smaller surface area, much more pressure is applied to the area it contacts than would occur if the katana was used.

Please, come back when you've learnt some basic physics.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 08:26:28 am
I appreciate the effort to have a mathematic backing to your argument. If you take out the condescending tone, it would be perfect! Almost there, thanks for having the best reply yet.

Still, consider that a pen weighs about an ounce, while bastard swords and katanas weigh 3 pounds, in real world situations. that is roughly 50 times as heavy. Again, another strawman argument.

Your example of the hammer is good, but actually works against you because the katana is the shorter weapon. My calculations actually include this effect.

Oh, and as far as the shape of the tip is concerned for thrusting, the difference is slight, and the advantage of weight and length would go to the katana. Conversely in the game, the bastard sword is the better thrust weapon. A dagger is a better thrust weapon in cRPG though it is one handed. Absurd.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Mattressi on January 30, 2011, 08:32:57 am
I appreciate the effort to have a mathematic backing to your argument. If you take out the condescending tone, it would be perfect! Almost there, thanks for having the best reply yet.

Still, consider that a pen weighs about an ounce, while bastard swords and katanas weigh 3 pounds, in real world situations. that is roughly 50 times as heavy. Again, another strawman argument.

Your example of the hammer is good, but actually works against you because the katana is the shorter weapon. My calculations actually include this effect.

The condescending tone is there because you seem to be under the impression that your application of physics is correct enough to call other people 'douchebags' for not responding with further nonsense science.

Please reply to my calculations when the weight of the two arms is included. The fact that you didn't makes me further believe that you're just trolling. To prove me wrong, reply to it. Where do you see the flaw in the logic?

As for length, it is irrelevant. Weight distribution is what is relevant. Hell, a sword that is longer is technically travelling faster (at the tip) than a shorter sword: the angular velocity is similar, but the point velocity is greater (point velocity = angular velocity multiplied by the length).
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Mattressi on January 30, 2011, 08:35:03 am
Oh, and as far as the shape of the tip is concerned for thrusting, the difference is slight, and the advantage of weight and length would go to the katana. Conversely in the game, the bastard sword is the better thrust weapon. A dagger is a better thrust weapon in cRPG though it is one handed. Absurd.

You're arguing that the katana should be faster than the bastard sword because it has less weight AND it should have more thrust damage because it has less weight?? More weight = greater momentum = greater penetration.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 08:39:21 am
Yes but the weight of the tip adds more momentum ot the blade than the weight near the hilt. A shorter blade has a more efficeint weight to speed ratio that is included in my calculations. Length of arm is irrelevant because it is assumed to be weilded by the same person.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 08:42:31 am
You're arguing that the katana should be faster than the bastard sword because it has less weight AND it should have more thrust damage because it has less weight?? More weight = greater momentum = greater penetration.

No, it is after the modifications. Don't take my studies out of context. Please reivaluate my original post.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Mattressi on January 30, 2011, 08:44:22 am
Yes but the weight of the tip adds more momentum ot the blade than the weight near the hilt. A shorter blade has a more efficeint weight to speed ratio that is included in my calculations. Length of arm is irrelevant because it is assumed to be weilded by the same person.

Again, address my calculations regarding the inclusion of the weight of the arms (their weight must be included, as they are part of the moving weight when a sword is swung). Otherwise, take your troll physics elsewhere.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 08:47:52 am
The weight of the arms is irrelevant because they are the means inwhich the impulse is implied to the vehicle (the sword).
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Mattressi on January 30, 2011, 08:55:03 am
The weight of the arms is irrelevant because they are the means inwhich the impulse is implied the the vehicle.

The weight of the arms is irrelevant if they are not being moved. As they're swinging with the sword, their weight must be considered. The shoulder muscles (as well as any muscles that may be used in the body if it is twisted) are the primary energy suppliers for the motion of the sword (and arms). To a lesser extent, the muscles in the arm will be used to move the forearm, meaning that a small amount of the weight can be ignored (because these muscles would not be moving that weight). However, if you want to argue over this negligible detail, you'll also have to come back and talk about the moment of inertia of each weapon and consider the energy output of each muscle.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 09:02:53 am
The calculation of adding arm weight to weapon weight has already been done and is static. Adding arm weight to weapon weight and then recalculating the speeds would actually be adding the weight of the arm in twice.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Mattressi on January 30, 2011, 09:08:47 am
The calculation of adding arm weight to weapon weight has already been done and is static.

Where? By whom? Currently the weapon weights shown in the menu are only of the weapons themselves. If you're implying that your calculations somehow include the weight of the arms, you are wrong. The weight of the arms certainly does not change, as you have already stated. However, to compare the ratio of moving weights of the two weapons, the weight of the arms must be included (again, [19 + 1.8]/[19 + 1.25]), as I have already said.

Adding arm weight to weapon weight and then recalculating the speeds would actually be adding the weight of the arm in twice.

So, you're saying that the weapon weights already include the arm weight (meaning that you think that a human's arms weigh less than 1 pound, given that some weapon in game weigh this little or less)?
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 09:10:15 am
It is automatically factored in by the game engine. Every character in the game is swinging swords with the same arms.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Mattressi on January 30, 2011, 09:16:12 am
It is automatically factored in by the game engine. Every character in the game is swinging swords with the same arms.

The base speed is the speed rating, then the character's WPF and agi are taken into account. So, to be 'automatically factored in', it means that the speed rating you're posting about has already taken into account the weight of the arms (which is exactly what my post showed). I'm glad we agree. Please troll elsewhere.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 09:19:51 am
More condescension and bullshit from you.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: ITHROWSHIT on January 30, 2011, 09:20:56 am
By this logic I suggest we change the katana to 500 blunt damage but reduce the speed rating to 1.

actually weapon damage values cannot exceed 255, so 500 wraps around to 0 and back up to 245
so 245 blunt damage and speed rating 1
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Fasader on January 30, 2011, 09:52:12 am
okay, so the item team has come up with new katana stats:
["strange_sword"],   "Katana"   [("katana",0),("katana_scabbard",ixmesh_carry)],   itp_type_two_handed_wpn| itp_primary   itc_bastardsword|itcf_carry_katana|itcf_show_holster_when_drawn,weight(1.25)|difficulty(9)|spd_rtng(142) | weapon_length(95)|swing_damage(45, piercing) | thrust_damage(35 , pierce)   
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 09:59:45 am
Wow, 35 pierce damage and 142 speed. I can understand now why the mod is so poorly balanced.  The developers are incompetent, or maybe they are being sarcastic and childish to a member who is trying to help them balance the game.

Either way, it doesn't look good.

Try rereading my original post Fasadar, let me know what parts you don't understand and I will help you.

Let us have an actual discussion, this childish bullshit is becoming old.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Fasader on January 30, 2011, 10:27:31 am
I cannot be arsed, Jego.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 10:59:19 am
Of course I can't. Who can arse the biggest arse of them all? Not that I even tried. You were the one with the sarcastic comment. My original post is simply an analysis. If you disagree with it, a statement as to why would be more helpful than  a snide remark. All you do is make yourself look like an asshole.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Magikarp on January 30, 2011, 11:17:12 am
You forgot the golden rule: don't feed the troll.

Just don't.

Even Fasader, the filthy peasant thief.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Paul on January 30, 2011, 11:35:50 am
We are already using this equation to determine the stats of weapons:

speed * weight * ( damage_swing * damage_type_factor_swing + damage_thrust * damage_type_factor_thrust)  * price * length * difficulty * weapon_type_modifier * weeaboo_penalty_modifier * ugly_model_modifier = secret_weapon_related_constant

Of course the secret_weapon_related_constant is different for every item and a secret.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 11:42:27 am
Nice Paul. I especially like the weeaboo_penalty_modifier, the ugly_model_modifier. Good to know that the developers of this mod are slightly skilled at trolling. Next time, I would rather have some actual content and feedback to your replies instead of gibberish.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 11:42:43 am
You forgot the golden rule: don't feed the troll.

omnomnom
thanks i was starving!

also balancing a game by applying math is just not going to work.

Of course the secret_weapon_related_constant is different for every item and a secret.

i need to know!
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 11:45:42 am
Haha Meow.

Just so you know, the game mechanics are all driven by math. Can't have a game without math. WHOOPS.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Paul on January 30, 2011, 11:51:13 am
Too bad that the weeaboo_penalty_modifier is reality(kinda) and the reason why Japanese weapons will be less "efficient" than the other stuff. This way we try to keep their number down.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 11:52:41 am
Haha Meow.

Just so you know, the game mechanics are all driven by math. Can't have a game without math. WHOOPS.

"balancing a game by applying math" does not equal don't use math for games...
but then again maybe you applied too much meth right?  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 30, 2011, 11:53:53 am
Yup, ninjas pay an import tax. Can't say it matters much.
You pay more for Prada aswell. Style costs.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 11:55:56 am
balancing a game by applying math is just not going to work.

Can you back this up some how? No you can't. this is the same as saying that you cannot balance a game by using logic. Math is logic.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Brutal on January 30, 2011, 12:04:42 pm
Quote
balancing a game by applying math is just not going to work.

Quote from: Jago
Can you back this up some how? No you can't.
oh yes we can you've demonstrated it enough, at least with the kind of math you're using !


Using that ratio to find the katana's speed in relation to the bastard sword, we find a speed of 142.56. A speed of 102 is much less than the expected speed of 142.56.

we find a speed of 142.56
we find a speed of 142.56
we find a speed of 142.56
we find a speed of 142.56
we find a speed of 142.56
we find a speed of 142.56

need more ?

Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 12:06:20 pm
Repeating yourself doesn't strengthen your argument. What is your argument again? Oh thats right, that my math is wrong. Prove it.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 12:07:27 pm
yes i can back this up some how.
game balancing does require devs to keep an eye on the overall gameplay and adjust stuff that seams out of place.
this sure is done by changing numbers but the reason for those changes are often unrelated to the values but mostly to the use and whining of / about it.

people are whining about spamming because they don't understand gameplay mechanics so they want it nerfed.
people get killed by throwers so they want it nerfed.

balancing is a ongoing process which will not just end because you find the perfect values for the mathematical variables but will always be about how people use stuff ingame which in no way is related to math except for the part that computers do nothing else but math... so yes you are right, all games are driven  by math still most balancing is not.

EDIT: forgot to troll =/

GIEF 142 speed Katanas!
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 12:10:52 pm
yes i can back this up some how.
game balancing does require devs to keep an eye on the overall gameplay and adjust stuff that seams out of place.
this sure is done by changing numbers but the reason for those changes are often unrelated to the values but mostly to the use and whining of / about it.

people are whining about spamming because they don't understand gameplay mechanics so they want it nerfed.
people get killed by throwers so they want it nerfed.

balancing is a ongoing process which will not just end because you find the perfect values for the mathematical variables but will always be about how people use stuff ingame which in no way is related to math except for the part that computers do nothing else but math... so yes you are right, all games are driven  by math still most balancing is not.

EDIT: forgot to troll =/

GIEF 142 speed Katanas!

What you are talking about is balancing a game by what the mob demands. While this may be a good way to find unnoticed problems, it is not a scientific way to balance a system.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 12:13:06 pm
no what i am talking about is balancing by killing the flavor of the month.
read - think - reply
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 12:16:40 pm
Trying to balance by "flavor of the month" will only create a see-saw effect.

Taking parts of my analysis out of context does not strengthen your argument, it shows your lack of understanding of the topic.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 12:18:26 pm
yeah in case you missed the last 10 years of gaming that is how balancing works.
there is no perfect balance as long as you have a player factor.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 12:24:34 pm
The difference is that as apposed to most games, we are simply balancing the speed and weight of a weapon, not how good a warrior's charge ability is as compared to a wizards fireball spell. This is much less abstract and can be balanced by applying math and physics. Math is a much more accurate tool than listening to the complaints of the loud minority.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 12:35:09 pm
yes you can use math for stat balancing but it will fail.
if you want it balanced you need to give all items the same stats or just make it one item for each category and be done with it.
just because the game is not your basic mmorpg doesn't mean balancing is any different.
actually it's way more complex.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Leshma on January 30, 2011, 12:46:19 pm
The developers are incompetent.

You realize this mod is free and without these "incompetent" developers you wouldn't be able to play it at all. Someone isn't doing his job properly and they aren't developers. Moderators shouldn't allow little twats like you to trash talk people who work hard and give their best so we could continue playing this wonderful mod.

Why don't you find another free2play online game where you can role play Ninja and save us all from your stupid comments.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 12:47:40 pm
Hey Leshma, the developers were being rude to me so I was rude back. Now you are being rude to me.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Babelfish on January 30, 2011, 12:58:00 pm
Jago, did you just start physics this semester? You should do some more reading and solving tasks, instead of writing up that mess you did on the first page.

Anyway, Mattressi raised some valid points which you ignored for most parts, why would anyone else be arsed to give you feedback, if thats how your going to respond?

Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 01:07:01 pm
Babelfish, the weight of the arms, according to Mattressi of 9.5 lbs, cannot proportionally be added to the weight the weapon to calculate weight and speed ratios. Wave your arms back and forth as fast as you can, it is almost instantaneous. The arms are applying the impulse to the sword, they are not part of the ratio.

Which points did I ignore? How many comments have completely ignored my points. It is simple math. Prove me wrong.

Perhaps if people addressed my post in a more civil and constructive manner, in a friendly debate, rather than insulting me and being rude, things would be going more smoothly. In any event, look at my first posts, I started this out in a civil manner, the members of this community have pulled it down to its.. pedestrian level.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Vexus on January 30, 2011, 01:07:58 pm
I didn't say anything to not be an ass but katana is already too much fast 5 length is irrelevant and hard to calculate while playing.

All ninjas (You had ninja sig and ninja_jago dunno if it's true) have high agility AND athletics this 5 length different doesn't mean shit when you can outrun most people.

Learn to block and stop whining.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 01:11:56 pm
Where were the whines in my original post? There were none. It is a simple analysis. Your statements are simple speculation on your part with no facts to back them up. Also, more rudeness directed at me for my mathematical analysis. Didn't know math could piss people off so much. Next time I want to start a fight I'll start talking about Algebra.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Vexus on January 30, 2011, 01:13:45 pm
I don't think anyone's pissed here apart of you (5 pages saying why your maths should be used)
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 01:15:47 pm
5 pages and still not one good argument against my calculations. Just a bunch of rudeness directed at me. Matt argued from a decent perspective, but was still rude.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 01:21:52 pm
yeah it might look like that for you if you take every counter argument as rudeness.

for everyone else there was no argument in here in the first place but some random math about stuff that can't be balanced purely by numbers...
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 01:24:32 pm
Right, because according to you, you can't use math to balance a game.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 01:29:01 pm
dude in case you didn't notice by now. no one agrees with anything you said so far.
now that might either be everyone else being an idiot or it's just you...

just because you open up a thread about something doesn't mean people have to agree with you, also they will be assholes if you just go on and on and on about the same stuff people stopped carring about after your first post.

just saying.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 01:30:45 pm
Prove me wrong.  Still not a single effort to prove my calculations wrong. Just a bunch of harassment and poorly developed arguments to make sure the katana remains only 70% as good as other swords.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 01:32:03 pm
this is not about proof but about everyone disagreeing with your idea of balancing in case you still didn't get it...
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 01:33:05 pm
Just because the mob wants to burn the witch, doesn't mean that the mob is right.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 01:33:49 pm
true but the witch will burn  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 01:34:51 pm
Probably, but the mob is still wrong.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 01:35:27 pm
at least that's what the witch thinks.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Mattressi on January 30, 2011, 01:51:14 pm
Babelfish, the weight of the arms, according to Mattressi of 9.5 lbs, cannot proportionally be added to the weight the weapon to calculate weight and speed ratios. Wave your arms back and forth as fast as you can, it is almost instantaneous. The arms are applying the impulse to the sword, they are not part of the ratio.

Let's break it down: the 3 joints involved are the wrist, elbow and shoulder joints. When you say "the arms are applying the impulse", which set of muscles around a joint are you specifically referring to as 'the arms'? Unless you believe the only muscles used to move the sword are those in the wrist joint, you must account for the weight of at least half of the arm (even then, you would still need to a account for the weight of the hands). You can't just decide that you can't be bothered to work out what is happening within the arm/shoulder and say that the arm's weight can be left out.

As for the instantaneous bit, let's start again. Swing your arm. Measure the time it took to complete the swing. Pick up a pen and swing your arm. Measure the time it took to complete. Pick up a 1 litre (screw it, you can convert it to whatever ridiculous measure of volume you might choose to use) container of water and swing it. Measure the time it took to complete. You'll notice that the time's are all remarkably similar. Even though it feels like the bottle of water is slower, you'll notice almost no increase in time taken (unless you can't use a stop watch and are unsure of what 'repetition' is). There was certainly not a linear difference in the time taken to complete a swing based on the weight ratio. For me, the water bottle took exactly the same time (average of 0.31 seconds) to complete an ~180 degree swing from the right side of my body to the left side of my body. The pen weighs about 0.3 lbs while the 1 litre bottle weighs 2.2 pounds. Shouldn't that mean that I swing the bottle 7.33 times slower than the pen (i.e. it should take me 2.27 seconds to swing the bottle)? Or will you finally concede that, perhaps, the weight of the pen is negligible (as well as the weight of the bottle) because the arm weighs significantly more?

Regardless, while you can balance a game on mathematics, you can't balance it based on real life physics. If we did, shielders would be able to attack while blocking, their shields would rarely break and nothing but blunt weapons would work against plate armor. But please, if you're going to reply only to this paragraph and ignore the rest of my post, just pretend that you didn't read this.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 01:53:03 pm
Too bad that the weeaboo_penalty_modifier is reality(kinda) and the reason why Japanese weapons will be less "efficient" than the other stuff. This way we try to keep their number down.

Yeah but only 71% as efficient as a sword that is 2.5 times cheaper? That's pretty extreme.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 01:59:29 pm
(click to show/hide)

Regardless, while you can balance a game on mathematics, you can't balance it based on real life physics. If we did, shielders would be able to attack while blocking, their shields would rarely break and nothing but blunt weapons would work against plate armor. But please, if you're going to reply only to this paragraph and ignore the rest of my post, just pretend that you didn't read this.

+1 also i'm mighty impressed that you actually took the time to write it down although that dude obviously just wants his katana buffed because he fails at melee  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 02:04:27 pm
Sorry Mattresi, I'm not buying your argument. A medieval man trained in combat can flail his arms about effortlessly, it is when those arms have to overcome the inertia of 4 foot long, three pound weapons where the torque is against them that they begin to slow down. Acceleration is the main consideration. 1.25 pounds will accelerate much quicker than 1.8 pounds, especially when the 1.25 pounds is subject to less torque than the longer 1.8 pound blade. Again, my original calculations already account for this.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 02:06:47 pm
Another stupid comment by Meow, they never end.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 02:17:15 pm
dude you still keep claiming stuff you don't have any proof for yet you demand people prove that you are wrong...
that might be how stuff works in your head but it's not how everyone else does it which mean BURN THE WITCH!
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Mattressi on January 30, 2011, 02:20:27 pm
+1 also i'm mighty impressed that you actually took the time to write it down although that dude obviously just wants his katana buffed because he fails at melee  :mrgreen:

Thanks lol. It doesn't really take me any effort to go through it: I type reasonably quick and I'm in my final year of uni, majoring in mechanical engineering, so this type of simple dynamics problem isn't exactly difficult for me.

Sorry Mattresi, I'm not buying your argument. A medieval man trained in combat can flail his arms about effortlessly, it is when those arms have to overcome the inertia of 4 foot long, three pound weapons where the torque is against them that they begin to slow down. Acceleration is the main consideration. 1.25 pounds will accelerate much quicker than 1.8 pounds, especially when the 1.25 pounds is subject to less torque than the longer 1.8 pound blade. Again, my original calculations already account for this.

Your original calculations account for nothing. They are based on no laws of physics, except your law of 'speed is linearly proportionate to the weight of an object, regardless of any other bodies involved in the motion'. As I've said before, you must take the weight of the arms into account (unless you think that something other than the muscles in the shoulder and arms are accelerating them). 20.25 lbs accelerates marginally faster than 20.8 lbs. I'm getting deja vu; I could have sworn I've said this multiple times before  :rolleyes:

Try reading this article on the motion of a sword: http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/GTA/motions_and_impacts.htm
Hopefully it will clear up your vague understanding of torque and your currently unknown understanding of the moment of inertia, centre of gravity and centre of percussion.

Edit: I'm not sure why I persist, I mean I previously conclusively showed by theory and experiment why he is completely wrong. I think I'm addicted to feeding trolls :O
Now just watch as he ignores the body of my post and comments on this last bit.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Bothersome_Aldryk on January 30, 2011, 02:27:16 pm
I believe that what this post has taught me is that we need a .1 weight weapon for me to swing so fast that it GOES BACK IN TIME, to hit before the person blocks.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 02:29:53 pm
Edit: I'm not sure why I persist, I mean I previously conclusively showed by theory and experiment why he is completely wrong. I think I'm addicted to feeding trolls :O
Now just watch as he ignores the body of my post and comments on this last bit.

but at the same time you feed the good trolls by making him reply and those good trolls make everyone happy  :mrgreen:

I believe that what this post has taught me is that we need a .1 weight weapon for me to swing so fast that it GOES BACK IN TIME, to hit before the person blocks.

pure win! all for it.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 02:30:13 pm
LoL Aldryk. :) That cracked me up.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Mattressi on January 30, 2011, 02:31:17 pm
I believe that what this post has taught me is that we need a .1 weight weapon for me to swing so fast that it GOES BACK IN TIME, to hit before the person blocks.

But remember it has to be short, otherwise the torqueses and accelerations will hold it back in the present!
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 02:33:06 pm
Still Matt, the weight of the arms, even if we factored them in, which we might as well factor in the weight of the body at this point because that is also propelling the blade, would not have much of an effect on the speed of the swing as the weight of the weapon because of the arms closer proximity to the center of rotation. The sword has a much higher torquing effect.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 02:36:18 pm
Obviously my general and simple calculations aren't perfect, but they are very close. A katana in cRPG is basically a Short 2H sword, couple that with a ridiculously low weight, and we should have a speed demon.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 02:39:03 pm
The two katanas that are modified by my calculations at the end of my post are very similar to the stats of a bastard sword. Their only advantage is a slight boost to speed because of the shortness of the blade. The bastard sword still has the longer reach.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 02:39:58 pm
spam more?

also we all know that slight errors in calculations have almost no impact EVER!

please link us info about your very close to correct calculations so even we uneducated people can understand how they are almost right.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Bothersome_Aldryk on January 30, 2011, 02:41:56 pm
Regardless of what mathematics says, in this situation you run into the honest problem of human reaction time. As the speed of the weapon increases, the difficulty of blocking increases significantly due to the decreased time to react and block. Many players had issues from high speed weapons in the hands of extremely high WPF characters pre-patch. Low weight weapons would be the same sort of thing, but of a greater magnitude. If one were to have speed differentials this large, it would be necessary to slow down all weapons, but that would cause issues by making manual blocking significantly easier against most weapons, potentially making anything but fast weapons unfeasible, due to the ease of blocking.

This is all disregarding whether or not the math is correct, of course.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 02:46:21 pm
Aldryk, the speed of the katana can be lowered by increasing the weight. By referencing the speed and weight of the bastard sword, accounting for the difference in length, the katana can keep its current speed of 102 with a weight of 1.97. That is .17 pounds heavier than the bastard sword. No where did I ever say that the katana should have a speed of 142. That was taken out of the context of my post.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Bothersome_Aldryk on January 30, 2011, 02:48:42 pm
Weight balancing would likely cause issues with some of the lower weight weapons as well. It would likely require a massive amount of rebalancing, which is likely more work than the developers would like to put forth for this.

All this once again is assuming that the math is correct. I'm too lazy to worry about physics and math unless it's for a class or something else that I have to do, so I'll leave those arguments to others and focus entirely on the problem from a game balance standpoint.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Mattressi on January 30, 2011, 02:49:44 pm
Still Matt, the weight of the arms, even if we factored them in, which we might as well factor in the weight of the body at this point because that is also propelling the blade, would not have much of an effect on the speed of the swing as the weight of the weapon because of the arms closer proximity to the center of rotation. The sword has a much higher torquing effect.

It most certainly does! The main issue, however is that the sword does not weigh very much, plus its centre of gravity is usually at the cross guard, which is roughly twice the distance of the centre of gravity of the arm, meaning the torque on the blades will roughly be 2*1.25 (i.e. 2.5) lb.units and 2*1.8 (3.6) lb.units, while the torque on the arm will be 19 lb.units (done in units because the length really doesn't matter for the purposes of this argument). Again, the arm is still a very important factor. You can't keep saying 'oh, well it's sorta close to where the energy comes from, so we can just ignore it'. It's there, it has an effect.
Seeing as you seem to be struggling with the theory, you might want to try conducting an experiment. If you're an American, find a baseball bat and give it a swing and record the time taken. They're usually close to 2 pounds (though they have a bad weight distribution for a sword-like object, but that would work in your favour). If you're elsewhere, grab a cricket bat or some other piece of sporting equipment roughly similar in weight to a longsword.

Someone stop me, please! I think I need to ban myself from this thread! All of this debating is just because his physics is wrong, but even if it were right, that wouldn't mean the game would be balanced. Must...stop...feeding...troll...
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 02:54:58 pm
Oh, please, stop insulting me by calling me a troll. You may disagree with me, but that doesn't mean I am a troll. Just stop.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Xant on January 30, 2011, 02:57:36 pm
Jago, you are a troll.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 02:59:30 pm
Oh, please, stop insulting me by calling me a troll. You may disagree with me, but that doesn't mean I am a troll. Just stop.

at least you don't try to make us believe you math was correct anymore  :mrgreen:

also it's not just disagreeing but he actually proved you wrong so you might just move along mr. troll.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 03:00:53 pm
Yes, here I am, trolling my own thread. I made you all come and post in it and now I am keeping you here by explaining my logical arguments and disregarding your insulting comments. The only one that has brought any actual discussion to this thread has been Matt, and even he can't help but insult me.

Thanks for contributing nothing Xant.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 03:02:31 pm
yeah you got us good mate.
we didn't see it coming for at least 3 lines into your OP  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 03:05:08 pm
My math is fine and no I don't agree with him. Weapon stats are for the weapon alone, they have nothing to do with the arms propelling them. Meow, insulting me for your amusement is trolling. Me arguing to make my point is me arguing to make my point, nothing else. Pot calling the kettle black, as Xant did. I am sure the two of you will continue to try to troll me and insult me because you don't like my argument.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Xant on January 30, 2011, 03:05:13 pm
Thanks for contributing nothing Xant.

Welcome. What's there to contribute?
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 03:17:01 pm
What you think about the discussion and why would be a good contribution. Insults don't do anything but hurt peoples feelings.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 03:18:33 pm
I am sure the two of you will continue to try to troll me and insult me because you don't like my argument.

you got that wrong. we don't troll and insult you because we don't "like" your argument we do it because your argument is hilarious.

it's cool if you want to make your point over and over again but that does not make it any better  :(
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 03:38:03 pm
I don't see how going from this:

Bastard Sword
Price 3086
weight 1.8
requirement 9
spd rtng 99
weapon length 101
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 23 pierce
Secondary Mode

Katana
Price 8212
weight 1.25
requirement 9
spd rtng 102
weapon length 95
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 18 pierce

To either of these:

Katana 3086
weight 1.8
requirement 9
spd rtng 105
weapon length 95
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce

Katana 3086
weight 1.97
requirement 9
spd rtng 102
weapon length 95
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce

Seems so ridiculous and hilarious to you Meow. I think you just said that you think my argument is hilarious to get a kick out of hurting someone's feelings.

The idea that heavier, longer things do not swing as fast as shorter lighter things isn't crazy. Comparing one sword to another also isn't such a crazy idea.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 03:47:49 pm
dude it's by now 8 pages of hilarity where you tried to show your point after the initial attempt to "prove" something by doing some random calculations about stuff that no one cares about.
i told you how balancing is done and even the devs ridiculed you... what else do you need to accept that your attempt to get stats changed is nothing else than the whining mob we talked about earlier?

P.S.: sorry if i hurt your feelings, that was not my intention =/
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 03:56:08 pm
I don't believe that the posters in this thread have looked at what I have written with an open mind. I believe the responses I have received reflect that. Though, perhaps it is my fault for not being able to explain things better to you all.

Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 04:00:12 pm
right and if you believe in it strong enough it will come true, i'm sure of that!
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Patricia on January 30, 2011, 04:01:59 pm
are you not happy about the already extreme speed of your WEEABO FORUDED STEERU KATANARU?
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Xant on January 30, 2011, 04:03:31 pm
yes plz 110 speed masterwork katana with 30 thrust, BRING IT ON BABY
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 04:19:02 pm
serpus
This.  This is the nerdiest fucking thread.

Thtb
His math is wrong, so combined with Serpus statement, double fail good sir.

Punisher
Deal with it.

Brutal
My conclusion from OP  0.17weight = 3 speed  :shock: what the....

Patricia
I'll just go the asshole way and tell you to learn to play

cmpxchg8b
your "formula" is questionable at best
Certainly not the kind of math that says a katana should have a speed of 142.

Aemaelius
I felt like commenting on this thread. Just really don't know what to say... either like... no.. just... wait... rly? or... Jago... You win this years price for best troll post. I lolled in the end!

Fasader
okay, next patch katana 142 speed. only fair.spd_rtng(142) | weapon_length(95)|swing_damage(45, piercing) | thrust_damage(35 , pierce)

POOPHAMMER
You sound like a butthurt loser

Gorath
Good troll though.

Mattressi
take your troll physics elsewhere

Leshma
little twats like you

Vexus
Learn to block and stop whining.

Mattressi
I think I'm addicted to feeding trolls
Must...stop...feeding...troll...

Xant
Jago, you are a troll.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 04:25:43 pm
Jago:
I WANT MY KATANA BUFFED AND DON'T CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY BECAUSE I AM RIGHT AND YOU ALL ARE WRONG WHICH IS CLEARLY SHOWN BY MY MATH!
LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!

normal i don't do caps but it was necessary to capture your attitude.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Patricia on January 30, 2011, 04:26:36 pm
actually I do know how to play, if I didn't I would ask for a buff on my weapon too.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Jago on January 30, 2011, 04:31:33 pm
Don't worry, you all don't have to make fun of me anymore. Never again. Good-bye.
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Meow on January 30, 2011, 04:33:38 pm
oh my gawd don't kill yourself!
we didn't mean to hurt your feelings!
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: Xant on January 30, 2011, 04:39:41 pm
Don't worry, you all don't have to make fun of me anymore. Never again. Good-bye.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
Post by: cmp on January 30, 2011, 04:40:49 pm
After a thorough analysis of your concerns, we have determined that the katana is indeed not balanced.
Using a slightly tweaked version of your formula, we came to the conclusion that the speed of the katana needs to be lowered from 102 to 101.

Thank you for your valuable input.