Author Topic: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword  (Read 15776 times)

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Offline Jago

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Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
« Reply #75 on: January 30, 2011, 01:30:45 pm »
+1
Prove me wrong.  Still not a single effort to prove my calculations wrong. Just a bunch of harassment and poorly developed arguments to make sure the katana remains only 70% as good as other swords.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 01:32:14 pm by Jago »

Offline Meow

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Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
« Reply #76 on: January 30, 2011, 01:32:03 pm »
0
this is not about proof but about everyone disagreeing with your idea of balancing in case you still didn't get it...

Offline Jago

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Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2011, 01:33:05 pm »
+1
Just because the mob wants to burn the witch, doesn't mean that the mob is right.

Offline Meow

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Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
« Reply #78 on: January 30, 2011, 01:33:49 pm »
0
true but the witch will burn  :mrgreen:

Offline Jago

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Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
« Reply #79 on: January 30, 2011, 01:34:51 pm »
+1
Probably, but the mob is still wrong.

Offline Meow

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Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
« Reply #80 on: January 30, 2011, 01:35:27 pm »
-1
at least that's what the witch thinks.

Offline Mattressi

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Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
« Reply #81 on: January 30, 2011, 01:51:14 pm »
0
Babelfish, the weight of the arms, according to Mattressi of 9.5 lbs, cannot proportionally be added to the weight the weapon to calculate weight and speed ratios. Wave your arms back and forth as fast as you can, it is almost instantaneous. The arms are applying the impulse to the sword, they are not part of the ratio.

Let's break it down: the 3 joints involved are the wrist, elbow and shoulder joints. When you say "the arms are applying the impulse", which set of muscles around a joint are you specifically referring to as 'the arms'? Unless you believe the only muscles used to move the sword are those in the wrist joint, you must account for the weight of at least half of the arm (even then, you would still need to a account for the weight of the hands). You can't just decide that you can't be bothered to work out what is happening within the arm/shoulder and say that the arm's weight can be left out.

As for the instantaneous bit, let's start again. Swing your arm. Measure the time it took to complete the swing. Pick up a pen and swing your arm. Measure the time it took to complete. Pick up a 1 litre (screw it, you can convert it to whatever ridiculous measure of volume you might choose to use) container of water and swing it. Measure the time it took to complete. You'll notice that the time's are all remarkably similar. Even though it feels like the bottle of water is slower, you'll notice almost no increase in time taken (unless you can't use a stop watch and are unsure of what 'repetition' is). There was certainly not a linear difference in the time taken to complete a swing based on the weight ratio. For me, the water bottle took exactly the same time (average of 0.31 seconds) to complete an ~180 degree swing from the right side of my body to the left side of my body. The pen weighs about 0.3 lbs while the 1 litre bottle weighs 2.2 pounds. Shouldn't that mean that I swing the bottle 7.33 times slower than the pen (i.e. it should take me 2.27 seconds to swing the bottle)? Or will you finally concede that, perhaps, the weight of the pen is negligible (as well as the weight of the bottle) because the arm weighs significantly more?

Regardless, while you can balance a game on mathematics, you can't balance it based on real life physics. If we did, shielders would be able to attack while blocking, their shields would rarely break and nothing but blunt weapons would work against plate armor. But please, if you're going to reply only to this paragraph and ignore the rest of my post, just pretend that you didn't read this.

Offline Jago

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Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
« Reply #82 on: January 30, 2011, 01:53:03 pm »
0
Too bad that the weeaboo_penalty_modifier is reality(kinda) and the reason why Japanese weapons will be less "efficient" than the other stuff. This way we try to keep their number down.

Yeah but only 71% as efficient as a sword that is 2.5 times cheaper? That's pretty extreme.

Offline Meow

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Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
« Reply #83 on: January 30, 2011, 01:59:29 pm »
-1
(click to show/hide)

Regardless, while you can balance a game on mathematics, you can't balance it based on real life physics. If we did, shielders would be able to attack while blocking, their shields would rarely break and nothing but blunt weapons would work against plate armor. But please, if you're going to reply only to this paragraph and ignore the rest of my post, just pretend that you didn't read this.

+1 also i'm mighty impressed that you actually took the time to write it down although that dude obviously just wants his katana buffed because he fails at melee  :mrgreen:

Offline Jago

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Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
« Reply #84 on: January 30, 2011, 02:04:27 pm »
0
Sorry Mattresi, I'm not buying your argument. A medieval man trained in combat can flail his arms about effortlessly, it is when those arms have to overcome the inertia of 4 foot long, three pound weapons where the torque is against them that they begin to slow down. Acceleration is the main consideration. 1.25 pounds will accelerate much quicker than 1.8 pounds, especially when the 1.25 pounds is subject to less torque than the longer 1.8 pound blade. Again, my original calculations already account for this.

Offline Jago

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Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
« Reply #85 on: January 30, 2011, 02:06:47 pm »
+1
Another stupid comment by Meow, they never end.

Offline Meow

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Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
« Reply #86 on: January 30, 2011, 02:17:15 pm »
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dude you still keep claiming stuff you don't have any proof for yet you demand people prove that you are wrong...
that might be how stuff works in your head but it's not how everyone else does it which mean BURN THE WITCH!

Offline Mattressi

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Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
« Reply #87 on: January 30, 2011, 02:20:27 pm »
0
+1 also i'm mighty impressed that you actually took the time to write it down although that dude obviously just wants his katana buffed because he fails at melee  :mrgreen:

Thanks lol. It doesn't really take me any effort to go through it: I type reasonably quick and I'm in my final year of uni, majoring in mechanical engineering, so this type of simple dynamics problem isn't exactly difficult for me.

Sorry Mattresi, I'm not buying your argument. A medieval man trained in combat can flail his arms about effortlessly, it is when those arms have to overcome the inertia of 4 foot long, three pound weapons where the torque is against them that they begin to slow down. Acceleration is the main consideration. 1.25 pounds will accelerate much quicker than 1.8 pounds, especially when the 1.25 pounds is subject to less torque than the longer 1.8 pound blade. Again, my original calculations already account for this.

Your original calculations account for nothing. They are based on no laws of physics, except your law of 'speed is linearly proportionate to the weight of an object, regardless of any other bodies involved in the motion'. As I've said before, you must take the weight of the arms into account (unless you think that something other than the muscles in the shoulder and arms are accelerating them). 20.25 lbs accelerates marginally faster than 20.8 lbs. I'm getting deja vu; I could have sworn I've said this multiple times before  :rolleyes:

Try reading this article on the motion of a sword: http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/GTA/motions_and_impacts.htm
Hopefully it will clear up your vague understanding of torque and your currently unknown understanding of the moment of inertia, centre of gravity and centre of percussion.

Edit: I'm not sure why I persist, I mean I previously conclusively showed by theory and experiment why he is completely wrong. I think I'm addicted to feeding trolls :O
Now just watch as he ignores the body of my post and comments on this last bit.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 02:23:14 pm by Mattressi »

Offline Bothersome_Aldryk

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Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
« Reply #88 on: January 30, 2011, 02:27:16 pm »
0
I believe that what this post has taught me is that we need a .1 weight weapon for me to swing so fast that it GOES BACK IN TIME, to hit before the person blocks.

Offline Meow

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Re: Katana Analyzed in Relation to the Bastard Sword
« Reply #89 on: January 30, 2011, 02:29:53 pm »
0
Edit: I'm not sure why I persist, I mean I previously conclusively showed by theory and experiment why he is completely wrong. I think I'm addicted to feeding trolls :O
Now just watch as he ignores the body of my post and comments on this last bit.

but at the same time you feed the good trolls by making him reply and those good trolls make everyone happy  :mrgreen:

I believe that what this post has taught me is that we need a .1 weight weapon for me to swing so fast that it GOES BACK IN TIME, to hit before the person blocks.

pure win! all for it.