cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Overdriven on September 19, 2011, 01:08:42 am
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Something interesting. Bumping with your horse now interrupts your attack :| Bumps the rider as well as the person.
Going to see a lot more lancers now I think.
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Awesome, brah.
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Good bye HA. Good bye one handed Cav.
RIP
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Something interesting. Bumping with your horse now interrupts your attack :| Bumps the rider as well as the person.
Probably to stop people from bump lancing. Which is good.
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gay shit brah
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Probably to stop people from bump lancing. Which is good.
Opposite will happen. Thats an HA/1h cav tactic. You'll probably see a lot more lancers now.
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Know a few people who is gonna rage tommorow :mrgreen:
EDIT: on another note this means the end for 1h cav i guess.
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Opposite will happen. Thats an HA/1h cav tactic. You'll probably see a lot more lancers now.
bump lancing is the way to kill a shielder, whatya talkin about?
Probably to stop people from bump lancing. Which is good.
so the only way to kill a siiem is a backstab -.-
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I SO CALLED IT
The first thread was about cav...
On a side note, no overhead nor block on long spears now ahahahahahahaha
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bump lancing is the way to kill a shielder, whatya talkin about?
so the only way to kill a siiem is a backstab -.-
Shielder...but not really the rest of the foot troops. That's back stabbing.
I SO CALLED IT
The first thread was about cav...
On a side note, no overhead nor block on long spears now ahahahahahahaha
Well that makes me bloody happy!
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POLEARMS DON'T REAR HORSES
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POLEARMS DON'T REAR HORSES
LIES
Ramses just did it to a horse with an awlpike.
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LIES
Ramses just did it to a horse with an awlpike.
I've ridden through a couple of polearms now and they only did damage :|
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Weird... :|
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On a side note, no overhead nor block on long spears now ahahahahahahaha
Finally a true support weapon, good, now they have to fight like real pikemen.
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On a side note, no overhead nor block on long spears now ahahahahahahaha
This is the best change ever. Fuck yes.
Also: seems like only spear-type polearms rear horses now.
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Also courser is now 6 difficulty and Arabian is 7. Nice to know that won't affect anyone in GK :lol:
Destrier is 5. Heavies are all 5 (including plated).
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I love playing cav because I love bumping people, sorry.
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I SO CALLED IT
The first thread was about cav...
On a side note, no overhead nor block on long spears now ahahahahahahaha
Does this mean anything for hoplites?
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2h cav will live on
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This wasn't supposed to be released (unfinished test code), it will be removed in the next hotfix.
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good news cmp
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but i think its fantastic ;{
it encourages cav to actually get good at cav instead of just bumping everyone
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This wasn't supposed to be released (unfinished test code), it will be removed in the next hotfix.
I was running around as lance and 1her cav and this really made it more balanced and fun with real skill - you lance/slash them or you bump them, but not both. It really is more realistic too you don't get some weird free angle hit for bumping them, cav took some real skill for once instead of pure easy mode. Was actually having fun as cav.
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Oh look, an agility shielder who plays with cloth armour and an archer being in favour of this? WHO WOULD OF THOUGHT
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meh none of our cav players were complaining... lancer 1h or 2h. they just needed to play a bit smarter and all was fine.
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its bad design, obv even the coders realize this considering its unfinished and wasn't considered ready to be released
note that i haven't tested the change yet but I am just gonna piss into the wind and say its bad
also cannot be reiterated enough: LMAO at arabian being 7 riding and plated charger/cataphract/etc being 5 riding. what game are you people playing (oh right, EU, heh)
I do admit I am terrified of the power of WSE in giving the developers free reign in bizarre inexplicable cav nerfs though. Nerf cav all you want as long as you use WSE to implement spikes or a horn you put on the head of a charger to impale peasants with then use the still alive peasant as a meat shield against arrows
alternatively, allow your horse's armor to be coated in oil, then use a torch to ignite it and ride it flaming into battle. I will uninstall cRPG and play War of the Roses exclusively unless these changes are made
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Well it was really bad for my playstyle, I always go for the bumpstab because my horse does a decent amount of charge damage.
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but i think its fantastic ;{
it encourages cav to actually get good at cav instead of just bumping everyone
O you wish. It doesn't stop us bumping any one. Just stops us killing you in the process. Bumping is still viable in order to interrupt archers or set your lancers up for their attack.
But yeah...the horse bump thing was no issue for us. 1h cav I can't speak for.
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I could live with this accidental bump code tbh :P in fact means I am more encouraged to circle and delay than actually attack :D
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Idc about the bump code but wtf is up with sarranid horse 7 riding and courser 6 riding
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As a 1H/Cav I did fine after the removal of the bumpslash vs anybody without a shield (though I was less effective overall).
Bumping a player already causes the mount to lose momentum, perhaps this could be enhanced further. There is no realistic reason for causing the rider to be stunned, perhaps the horse could have a course correction or wobble effect if possible.
From a gameplay perspective it is a way to decrease the power of 1h cavalry who could do with a little nerfing I will admit. Lancer cavalry is stronger and much more popular and if any cav should be nerfed, it should be them (rather than the class I play of course).
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Good bye HA.
Piercing damaging from horseback. Bump-shooting wasn't that good, however bodkins with any bow on horseback is a decent buff, one would think.
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Gurnisson is right.
Bump shooting took a lot of practice. Was only really useful against archers.
So no...not bye bye HA :lol:
Problem with bodkins is the reason I stopped using them was they were hellishly expensive on upkeep because of the increased arrow break chance.
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if I could switch between quivers ( future WSE feature? :D ) I would take 1 quiver of bodkin and 1 quiver of barbed on my HA, use bodkin for the heavy armour guys and barbed for the lighter armoured guys :D.
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if I could switch between quivers ( future WSE feature? :D ) I would take 1 quiver of bodkin and 1 quiver of barbed on my HA, use bodkin for the heavy armour guys and barbed for the lighter armoured guys :D.
That is the dream :D I'd add a quiver of tartars though for the hell of it (I use 3 quivers).
Had fun shooting you off your horse tonight :P
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lol, well long spears / pikes are worthless now.
Time for the bamboo spear reign?
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bamboo spear master race!
btw gorath ur sig perfectly describes me and 90% of my characters
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lol, well long spears / pikes are worthless now.
Time for the bamboo spear reign?
Mr. Gorath did they forgot that? Cheers beta-testers :)
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how i felt on this patch visitors can't see pics , please register or login
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On a side note, no overhead nor block on long spears now ahahahahahahaha
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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So horse archers have to use cata not arabian?
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If the change to the long spears is true, then I will say it will be changed back soon. There is not a single reason any more to use a weapon which uses 2 slots, is unsheathable, easily blockable by having only one attack direction, appearently it doesn't even stop horses any more, and leaves you completely undefended if an enemy reaches you. Because you would have to rely on your teammates to protect you, sticking together and shit like this. Teamplay and tactics. That's not topistic at all. Nooooo... :rolleyes:
All the changes from the last patch point to horse archers on armoured horses, and as soon as the riderbump is removed your missing teammates with pikes leave you only one choice: shield up and being trampeled or shield down, try to stop the HA and being shot.
Honestly, whoever does the balancing in this mod should think about... doing something different in life... because the solutions to balance things out become worse and worse. And although I always had the opinion that every damage inflicted by horsebump (or made possible by horsebump-stun) is lame, damaging the rider for bump damage is plain retarded. Sorry.
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appearently it doesn't even stop horses any more
It does stop horses. It's an anti horse weapon.
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Bumpslash is an important tool for cav and I don't think it should be removed.
I will uninstall cRPG and play War of the Roses exclusively unless these changes are made
Is that a promise?
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Bumpslash is an important tool for cav and I don't think it should be removed.
Is that a promise?
dont revert this change, this change is the best balance change you guys have ever made
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It does stop horses. It's an anti horse weapon.
I only read this:
POLEARMS DON'T REAR HORSES
I've ridden through a couple of polearms now and they only did damage :|
_______________________________________________________________
Bumpslash is an important tool for cav and I don't think it should be removed.
Being important in means of "their role in the team" or being important in the means of "the easiest way to get kills"?
(And no, don't tell me the first is the second, because making kills indeed is important, but the effect should represent the effort. And effort in bumsplashing someone = 0)
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Bumpslash is a unique way of dealing with a passiv turtler which can otherwise block forever. With some armor the charge damage won't bother him much either. Bumpslash gives (1h) cav an aura of fear on the open field, forcing the footman to be aggressive to have a chance. I kinda see couch as the equivalent for the lancer. Yes, I like it. I won't let it go.
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Bumpslash is a unique way of dealing with a passiv turtler which can otherwise block forever. With some armor the charge damage won't bother him much either. Bumpslash gives (1h) cav an aura of fear on the open field, forcing the footman to be aggressive to have a chance. I kinda see couch as the equivalent for the lancer. Yes, I like it. I won't let it go.
The removal of bumpslash means death of (already in some sort of final AIDS state before, this patch only finishes them) 1h cav. (edit : never mind)
Also, if the long spear can't block anymore, there is absolutely 0 reason to prefer it over a 2h greatsword than deals more damage, is way better in every situation and has enough range to hit horsemen.
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Heavy lance outranges 2h stab.
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Heavy lance outranges 2h stab.
L2P, or L2 stack agi and ath :D
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L2P, or L2 stack agi and ath :D
Stacking agi and ath won't make your sword any longer.
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Stacking agi and ath won't make your sword any longer.
Above 6 ath you are nimble enough to jump and hit the head of the horse before the rider can do anything to you, given the limited angle of the lance.
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LIES this NERF is dev troll! I reset my skills last night to become 1h cav NOW THIS?!
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Above 6 ath you are nimble enough to jump and hit the head of the horse before the rider can do anything to you, given the limited angle of the lance.
What? No. No matter how nimble you are the heavy lance will /still/ be longer. Your only argument could be that if you are fast enough, you might be able to hit the horse before the cavalry player notices. But that's extremely risky, as any good cav player will likely just one-hit you when you try that.
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What? No. No matter how nimble you are the heavy lance will /still/ be longer. Your only argument could be that if you are fast enough, you might be able to hit the horse before the cavalry player notices. But that's extremely risky, as any good cav player will likely just one-hit you when you try that.
I have yet to meet a "good cav player" that will actually do that on purpose. Good 2h players on the other hand, have no problems either dodging the lance then come back and attack, or simply onehitting the horse before the rider can hit them.
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I have yet to meet a "good cav player" that will actually do that on purpose. Good 2h players on the other hand, have no problems either dodging the lance then come back and attack, or simply onehitting the horse before the rider can hit them.
Bullshit. Lance has more range, you turn your horse away from the infantry player when you thrust. Guaranteed win.
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I have yet to meet a "good cav player" that will actually do that on purpose. Good 2h players on the other hand, have no problems either dodging the lance then come back and attack, or simply onehitting the horse before the rider can hit them.
As an ex 2h user I can vouch for your story. Lolstab 1 hit kills happened frequently.
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I have yet to meet a "good cav player" that will actually do that on purpose. Good 2h players on the other hand, have no problems either dodging the lance then come back and attack, or simply onehitting the horse before the rider can hit them.
Excuse me, there is just one major flaw here... no 2h sword has enough pierce damage to "1 hit kill" cav.
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Bumpslash is an important tool for cav and I don't think it should be removed.
Is that a promise?
Important tool for cav? LOL, no it's just fucking EZ mode like bumping everyone and getting kills without any effort. It SHOULD be removed. If an 1h cav gets me without bumpslash that's what I call skill.
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Exactly. A shield is there to protect you. You can't think seriously to be allowed to simply negate the shield only because you are noble cavalry?
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Excuse me, there is just one major flaw here... no 2h sword has enough pierce damage to "1 hit kill" cav.
Guess you've never heard of speed bonus, and sweet zone of damage? ect ect
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Excuse me, there is just one major flaw here... no 2h sword has enough pierce damage to "1 hit kill" cav.
Well, in most case this is correct, but you can reasonably expect any cav that managed to come close to you for some reason to have taken an arrow or a bolt.
Futhermore, I'd like to add that I can do this all day long as 2h. And if I'm not that confident, I just block down. Something pikemen can't do anymore trololo.
I wonder why are maul or poleaxe users still allowed to block. Those are more unwieldy than the puny 2,45 m longspears and 3m pikes we have.
Important tool for cav? LOL, no it's just fucking EZ mode like bumping everyone and getting kills without any effort. It SHOULD be removed. If an 1h cav gets me without bumpslash that's what I call skill.
It means that now, 1h cav already had like 0 range (meaning their only kill opportunities are unaware people), but additionaly, if they decide for some reason to attack an aware footman, the footman can recklessly attack while throwing himself under the horse because it means he is invulnerable to the rider. And that is broken. Moreover, For 1h cav, the simple slash without bump is extremely unreliable, your target can be unaware but move sideways for some reason, it will either result in you missing or bumping thus being interrupted.
When your 2h sword that protects you from cav, is the all around best duelling weapon and weights nearly nothing will cost 30k gold (horse + 1h wep, I forget the shield because I'm kind), we'll talk about EZ mode.
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Those long 2h swords are for sure not the best duelling weapons.
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Those long 2h swords are for sure not the best duelling weapons.
Then I wonder why all the best 2h duellers use them. They must like challenges.
Exactly. A shield is there to protect you. You can't think seriously to be allowed to simply negate the shield only because you are noble cavalry?
Lance cav is a counter to shielders in some way because they lack range. But it's often pretty easy to hit the horse before the rider can hit you (if he goes for the no-bump strategy which is usually more rewarding, and much easier if he tries to bump you). He has a 1h just like you. When shielders turtle up against a 1h cav, no wonder they are bumpslashed, it's not the good reaction (just like turtling against a maul)
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Guess you've never heard of speed bonus, and sweet zone of damage? ect ect
Only bad cav die to two handers.
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When shielders turtle up against a 1h cav, no wonder they are bumpslashed, it's not the good reaction (just like turtling against a maul)
This doesn't mean that bumpslash kills are justified. What you gave is an explanation, not a (gameplay related) reason for bumpslash. :wink:
And btw I am for removing or heavily nerfing blockcrush, too. In my eyes only things that require skill should lead to kills. That's why archers should be happy to encounter their class at all if I was the developer of cRPG.
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Agree with Joker, bumpslash is unrealistic easymode. 1h cav should support teammates or attack unaware enemies and not bump everyone and kill. For frontal assaults there is lance cavalry. Different roles on the battlefield make teamwork important and the mod deeper.
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Only bad cav die to two handers.
Yup.
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if I was the developer of cRPG.
Thank god it stops there!
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Only bad cav die to two handers.
Hardly. Head on a 2h lolstab can hit the horses head/neck long before the heavy lance gets close. If you have enough ath it's easy as a 2h to put yourself in the position to do that no matter how much a lancer is trying to avoid you/strike you from an angle.
Whether you kill the horse or not depends on a lot of variables. But there's always a good chance that you will.
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A 2 hander can out reach lance, you see it constantly, because the height of the horse and rider are taken into account for reach of his lance, while 2 handers get a hefty bonus to their reach on stabs. And anything below a destrier can be 1 hit by the strength stacking 2 handers we have here in NA, especially since everyone and their mother has MW 2 hander, though it may be different in EU.
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Hardly. Head on a 2h lolstab can hit the horses head/neck long before the heavy lance gets close. If you have enough ath it's easy as a 2h to put yourself in the position to do that no matter how much a lancer is trying to avoid you/strike you from an angle.
Whether you kill the horse or not depends on a lot of variables. But there's always a good chance that you will.
Nope. Maybe vs GK's but try it vs Tommyyy for instance.
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Thank god it stops there!
Yes, you are lucky there, as there current developers allow you to keep on with your EZ mode kills, whatever this would be. Ranged combat, cavalry, overhead blockcrush...
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Hardly. Head on a 2h lolstab can hit the horses head/neck long before the heavy lance gets close. If you have enough ath it's easy as a 2h to put yourself in the position to do that no matter how much a lancer is trying to avoid you/strike you from an angle.
Whether you kill the horse or not depends on a lot of variables. But there's always a good chance that you will.
All the good cav (Oberyn, Tommyy, that other templar guy, Riddaren maybe) can lance any 2h before they can stab them. It's not that hard a concept, though mastering it takes practice. You just turn your horse away from the 2her and thrust at the same time.
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Only bad cav die to two handers.
I've killed the best cav players with a MW GGS.
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Something interesting. Bumping with your horse now interrupts your attack :| Bumps the rider as well as the person.
Going to see a lot more lancers now I think.
Rediculous.
Mega Cav-Nerf.
Also unrealisitc... The Impact is nearly not there for a rider. His Horse is far too heavy...
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All the good cav (Oberyn, Tommyy, that other templar guy, Riddaren maybe) can lance any 2h before they can stab them. It's not that hard a concept, though mastering it takes practice. You just turn your horse away from the 2her and thrust at the same time.
Yes but at lot of it depends on who the 2h is. A quick 2h can easily adjust himself to take into account the turning of the horse. It's really not that hard. And most of the best lancers avoid aware 2h because of it.
Only the worst 2h won't be able to do this.
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Wooki Monsta approves of these changes.
As a cav i can see that this will balance the game a bit more.
And as for 1hcav dissapearing, i see plenty of 1h get kills without bumps. Maybe itll make shielders more immune to 1h cav, but other than that it seems balanced.
Oh and as for people who complain that its "not realistic". First of all, realism isn't what chadz is after. Secondly, Bumping a 80 kilo man in 20-30 kilo armor out of the way would send a SERIOUS jolt through the horse.
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Nope. Maybe vs GK's but try it vs Tommyyy for instance.
Done it to Tommy, Torben, Leed, Oberyn............... Any other good lancers out there?
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Done it to Tommy, Torben, Leed, Oberyn............... Any other good lancers out there?
Then you woke up.
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Ye was about to say... almost every lancer has it done to them by the better and more aware 2h players :P
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Agree with Joker, bumpslash is unrealistic easymode. 1h cav should support teammates or attack unaware enemies and not bump everyone and kill. For frontal assaults there is lance cavalry. Different roles on the battlefield make teamwork important and the mod deeper.
Okay, I will analyse who you are referring to with that "everybody" there.
Polearms ? Impossible, the horse is stopped or killed and/or the rider is killed.
2h ? Impossible 2h thrust are 2 to 3 times longer than any attack of a 1h on a horse. The rider dies.
Archers ? Yes but only if the 1h cav manages to come up close without loosing his horse or being killed by an arrow. The horse will atleast take an arrow, probably in the horse's head if the archer is aware of him.
Throwers ? Nope. You or your horse dies before you can come close.
Crossbowmen ? Only if they haven't seen you before they shot. If they see you and they have a bolt loaded, you are better not trying anything if you want to keep your horse (and usually yourself too) alive.
Other cav ? No bumping on other cav, einstein.
Finally, we have shielders. As they still often do the mistake of turtling up against a 1h cav, they are the only real "aware and easy kills" of 1h cav. If they react correctly, however, the 1h cav might still kill them but at the expense of a big slash in his horse.
Also, about this lance outreaching 2h nonsense, I did it myself with a DGS against many cav. It's just piss easy. On the other hand, outreaching a DGS as lancer requires perfect timing and that the 2h doesn't time his thrust right.
Anyway, even if it was true that lances outreach greatswords, why bother when you can jump on the side and slash them, dodge backwards, block or even chamber the lance (the easiest chamberblocks IMO).
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Also, about this lance outreaching 2h nonsense, I did it myself with a DGS against many cav. It's just piss easy. On the other hand, outreaching a DGS as lancer requires perfect timing and that the 2h doesn't time his thrust right.
It's simple math, brah. The lance is longer.
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Then you woke up.
With an erection.
Yes but at lot of it depends on who the 2h is. A quick 2h can easily adjust himself to take into account the turning of the horse. It's really not that hard. And most of the best lancers avoid aware 2h because of it.
Only the worst 2h won't be able to do this.
Atleast you're a good comedian :lol:
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It's simple math, brah. The lance is longer.
Use your simple math, accounting for distance to horse head not rider, length gained by both weapons on attack. Your simple math might give you the right answer then ;)
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Use your simple math, accounting for distance to horse head not rider, length gained by both weapons on attack. Your simple math might give you the right answer then ;)
Indeed: the lancer will hit first. Obviously not if he keeps riding straight towards the 2her. But as I've said two times already, all you need to do is steer away from the 2h player who tries to stab you and stab him back.
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Indeed: the lancer will hit first. Obviously not if he keeps riding straight towards the 2her. But as I've said two times already, all you need to do is steer away from the 2h player who tries to stab you and stab him back.
unless the 2h player adjusts his position accordingly, with normal athletics and reduced turn speed of most horses (maybe arabian is an exception) you should be able to counter this turn :P arabians are far less common now due to riding 7 needed ;)
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Okay, I will analyse who you are referring to with that "everybody" there.
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If you want be head-on horseman then take a lance and if you want play light horseman with sword then attack busy or unaware enemies from the side or from behind and profit.
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Indeed: the lancer will hit first. Obviously not if he keeps riding straight towards the 2her. But as I've said two times already, all you need to do is steer away from the 2h player who tries to stab you and stab him back.
And all a 2h need do is move towards the horse...hell if you can't get there. Block down.
Also take into account that a lance is held half way down, and as someone else has said, the height of the horse.
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unless the 2h player adjusts his position accordingly, with normal athletics and reduced turn speed of most horses (maybe arabian is an exception) you should be able to counter this turn :P arabians are far less common now due to riding 7 needed ;)
Counter his turn? How? You plan on not only outrunning the horse, but speeding to its other side, before the lancer can finish his animation?
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unless the 2h player adjusts his position accordingly, with normal athletics and reduced turn speed of most horses (maybe arabian is an exception) you should be able to counter this turn :P arabians are far less common now due to riding 7 needed ;)
Vs competent cav it does not work with 8 athletics even. Pray tell, how much athletics did you have when you managed this miracle vs let's say Tommyyy (since you say vs anyone)?
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horses cant go at right angles, he is travelling the longest side of a triangle, to match him you have to move the shortest side :P and if you are incapable of that, as overdriven said, hes not couching so block down :P
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I enjoy how this is still being discussed when devs have repeatedly said the changes are being reverted.
save your keyboards the bashing folks, its clearly in vain.
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dont mind xant / siiem they are useless at killing horses obviously thats why they try to lobby on forum so they can kill more with their "super hard class"
anyways its true any decent 2h can kill horse easily, when it comes to 1vs1 situation, more skill is needed on the cav part to get the kill
fun fact: i remember one of them going the ez mode, and bottom scoring the board, but not sure if it was either siiem or xant, they are like brothers so cant tell a difference really
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Here, I even drew an image!
http://postimage.org/image/2q7p9iodg/
Green is the 2her looking to kill himself some cavplayas. Red is the not-incompetent cavplaya. Red steers to the right at the correct moment, green has no chance of hitting the horse or the rider before the lance hits him. Pink is the lance of doom. If the cav player's timing is right, this will work every time.
Maybe this will even teach some of you GKs how to do it, you're welcome!
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horses cant go at right angles, he is travelling the longest side of a triangle, to match him you have to move the shortest side :P and if you are incapable of that, as overdriven said, hes not couching so block down :P
Which defeats the purpose of stabbing at the horse if you have to be defensive. So again as xant said, you can't do it.
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Cba to argue it any more. But can just say that you guys need some horse killing lessons.
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Cba to argue it any more. But can just say that you guys need some horse killing lessons.
No u! You need to l2p! I like arguing like you do, this is fun!
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Here, I even drew an image!
http://postimage.org/image/2q7p9iodg/
Green is the 2her looking to kill himself some cavplayas. Red is the not-incompetent cavplaya. Red steers to the right at the correct moment, green has no chance of hitting the horse or the rider before the lance hits him. Pink is the lance of doom. If the cav player's timing is right, this will work every time.
Maybe this will even teach some of you GKs how to do it, you're welcome!
this is not a good diagram :P I think us GK's should teach you how to draw diagrams...
Which defeats the purpose of stabbing at the horse if you have to be defensive. So again as xant said, you can't do it.
adaption of tactics, its a common thing :P
anyways as chagan said, not worth it with you two, if you are incapable of killing cav it just makes it easier for us :P
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No u! You need to l2p! I like arguing like you do, this is fun!
Go remove your helmet.
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this is not a good diagram :P I think us GK's should teach you how to draw diagrams...
Pfft, you may insult my paint skills, but you get the point.
Or not, my explanation made all the GK speechless because they realized they're wrong. O well.
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Here, I even drew an image!
http://postimage.org/image/2q7p9iodg/
Green is the 2her looking to kill himself some cavplayas. Red is the not-incompetent cavplaya. Red steers to the right at the correct moment, green has no chance of hitting the horse or the rider before the lance hits him. Pink is the lance of doom. If the cav player's timing is right, this will work every time.
Maybe this will even teach some of you GKs how to do it, you're welcome!
You are right, a stationary 2h will get pwned by good cav. Now what about 2h that can move ?
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You are right, a stationary 2h will get pwned by good cav. Now what about 2h that can move ?
The only "sucessful" move in that senario is if the 2h moves away - i.e no chance at killing cav.
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You are right, a stationary 2h will get pwned by good cav. Now what about 2h that can move ?
He will avoid and live. But the purpose of this discussion what that the GK says a good 2h will always be able to kill the horse with a stab. Which they haven't come with any other message than "U guys suck, l2p lolol, we are great khans our epic skill is pr0"
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The only "sucessful" move in that senario is if the 2h moves away - i.e no chance at killing cav.
Exactly. The lines show "movement".. there is no other way for the 2h to attempt to kill the cav than what I showed.
Sure, 2h can pretty much avoid getting killed by (single) cav if they play defensively and never try to attack.
HOWEVER, the original point was that 2hswords would replace longspears as cavkillers, which is untrue.
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He will avoid and live. But the purpose of this discussion what that the GK says a good 2h will always be able to kill the horse with a stab. Which they haven't come with any other message than "U guys suck, l2p lolol, we are great khans our epic skill is pr0"
No we explained it. But you and xant are the kinda guys who believe you are the best in the world and won't back down until the other side do. So it's a pointless internet argument with you two yet again. Hence why I'm not gonna bother with it now.
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Jesus.... if cav goes head on it dies, if it turn/stabs the 2h dies, even the smallest minds should understand this oversimplified version
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No we explained it. But you and xant are the kinda guys who believe you are the best in the world and won't back down until the other side do. So it's a pointless internet argument with you two yet again.
Lol, we have not said that in any posts, just said that "we feel you are wrong, feel free to explain to us why" while you answear with... "You guys need to learn some horse killing skills"
Jesus.... if cav goes head on it dies, if it turn/stabs the 2h dies, even the smallest minds should understand this oversimplified version
Well, apparently it's harder to comprehend then I first thought.
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He will avoid and live. But the purpose of this discussion what that the GK says a good 2h will always be able to kill the horse with a stab. Which they haven't come with any other message than "U guys suck, l2p lolol, we are great khans our epic skill is pr0"
no we gave explanations :P you just refuse to listen and instead you two present us with an unsightly diagram, there are no measurements or basic calculations, present to me a researched version and I might listen, but for now we can just ignore your childish scribblings :P
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No we explained it. But you and Overdriven are the kinda guys who believe you are the best in the world and won't back down until the other side do. So it's a pointless internet argument with you two yet again. Hence why I'm not gonna bother with it now.
fixed
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fixed
Good to know you think Siiem thinks that as well though.
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Also courser is now 6 difficulty and Arabian is 7. Nice to know that won't affect anyone in GK :lol:
Destrier is 5. Heavies are all 5 (including plated).
hmmm so nice now that im finaly doing an gen as HA-_-
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No we explained it. But you and xant are the kinda guys who believe you are the best in the world and won't back down until the other side do. So it's a pointless internet argument with you two yet again. Hence why I'm not gonna bother with it now.
i agree there ignorant
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no we gave explanations :P you just refuse to listen and instead you two present us with an unsightly diagram, there are no measurements or basic calculations, present to me a researched version and I might listen, but for now we can just ignore your childish scribblings :P
Your best explanation was "get some cav killing skills." The explanation (and paint-pic) is a lot more "research" than what you did. You offered no explanation as to how the 2h would kill cav if the cav did what I said. But seems my work here is done, those with logic can now see the light.
Edit: Darian joined your side, you auto-lose.
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no we gave explanations :P you just refuse to listen and instead you two present us with an unsightly diagram, there are no measurements or basic calculations, present to me a researched version and I might listen, but for now we can just ignore your childish scribblings :P
They also gave explanations, you also refused to listen.
And what researched version do you have to support your claims?
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They also gave explanations, you also refused to listen.
And what researched version do you have to support your claims?
I havnt presented a diagram ;) just working on past experience and what I think most people would agree on :P obviously people differ but I think if you asked cav would you charge an aware 2h in lolstab they would say 'no, if hes aware he can counter me'. And I think if you asked reasonably minded 2h's whether they could take a charging lancer even if he turned, they wouldnt think themselves screwed or helpless ;)
Edit : if you want research I'm sure you can start a thread and poll, or go online and record some material and present it to us :)
Edit Edit : what you have here are the two extremes, we have on the one side people who constantly lobby for a cav nerf and on the other cavalry who think that another cav nerf is just unreasonable. We are never gonna agree unless someone provides us with numbers and calculations that are fully correct.
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I'm interested in hearing what a good lancer has to say about being outranged by two handers... somebody call one?
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I am also working from past exepriene and you could read my oversimplified version.
Why am i sure in what i say? It has happend to me countless times and i have learned to recognize cav that use this and cav that dont so i know when must i be defensive or offensive
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I'm interested in hearing what a good lancer has to say about being outranged by two handers... somebody call one?
chagan said something down there ;)
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It also seems simple enough from a math perspective. Hidden bonuses taken into account, heavy lance has ~20 cm on DGS stab. All you need to do, then, is to get your horse out of the way, which you do by turning.
Umbra, for example, is more skilled 2h than Murmillus or Caffein, so knows how to use thrust better than them.
But yeah, maybe some actually good cav could say what they think. I saw Ironlake lurking the thread earlier but he didn't say nuthin'.
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I'm interested in hearing what a good lancer has to say about being outranged by two handers... somebody call one?
Well i do remember Oberyn mastering said technique. I dont try to stab him as i will get struck i just downblock
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It also seems simple enough from a math perspective. Hidden bonuses taken into account, heavy lance has ~20 cm on DGS stab. All you need to do, then, is to get your horse out of the way, which you do by turning.
Umbra, for example, is more skilled 2h than Murmillus or Caffein, so knows how to use thrust better than them.
But yeah, maybe some actually good cav could say what they think. I saw Ironlake lurking the thread earlier but he didn't say nuthin'.
taking into account you cant lance more than 40 degrees ;) that more than makes up 20 cm :P
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well i consider myself a pretty decent lancer. With the old turning values it was easy to out-distance 2h since you could turn so the horse was perpendicular to the lance. This meant your lance had max range and it THERE outdistanced the 2h. With the current values though, the margin of length is MUCH closer and it becomes a matter of timing and often sheer luck.
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Xant's and Siiem's accounts were hacked by a retarded person. That's my best explanation of why good 2h outrange lances.
Protip :
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Works best with large horses btw.
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So wait, is the 2h between the cav player's lance and the horse's head in your drawing?
You need to draw where the players start from as well, otherwise it makes no sense. The cav doesn't start turning before the 2h is attacking, giving the 2h no chance to "move cleverly towards the trajectory." Just think about it, brah. The cav can move to the other side as much as is needed.
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So wait, is the 2h between the cav player's lance and the horse's head in your drawing?
Yes
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Nothing wrong with that pic it clearly represents the situation when a cav with bad reactions goes head on, turns his horse too late and rightfully gets owned.
Now can you draw a situation when the cav angles his horse before its already too late?
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Yes
Goddamn wizardry, I say.
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Nothing wrong with that pic it clearly represents the situation when a cav with bad reactions goes head on, turns his horse too late and rightfully gets owned.
Now can you draw a situation when the cav angles his horse before its already too late?
Humans being (rightfully) much more maniable than horses in this game, the 2h can also go forward or backward to adjust the distance between him and the rider when the rider starts turning. He can even go full steam towards the right of this pic then suddenly go left as late as possible. The rider has to anticipate the 2h movements. When the footman finally changes direction, it's too late for the horse to react.
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Here is my opinion on the matter, though take into account that recently I have not played as much lancer, more 1h cav.
An experienced lancer can outreach a 2h sword stab, but only in ideal circumstances and with maximum skill. Since the 40° change, this being so difficult that I would not think anyone but the top 3 lancers on EU and them only when on their best could reliable hit a staby 2her. Despite having a lot of experience as cav myself, ever since the change I did not attempt 2hers in such situations albeit because I was not playing lancer all the time - maybe if I was I would have.
This however, I think is a problem, since a 2her is the ultimate melee weapon and it has anti cav cabalities which are at worst decent and at best deadly. A single stab is usually a horse kill and this means 90% of the time the rider dies before even standing up. Now, if this were a pike or spear this would be expected in terms of danger to horses - but pikes and spears have serious drawbacks in other fights while the 2her is supreme in them.
And another issue is that a decent swordsman can use the stab anti cav with great effect while it takes maximum experience to even try to lance him, and horsemen shouldnt (and most longer living ones - DONT) even attempt so. Also we should consider that an aware swordman is not in danger of a lance, even if it wouldnt have the ability to own him, due to down block and jumping aside.
So in conclusion, even though theoreticaly the lance beats the 2h sword, in practice I would say that 2her anti cav potential is too high and would almost always bet on a 2her stabing over a lancer (1on1).
p.s.
also the last Kafein's post is right, and a good lancer must adjust so that he strikes with perfect range on assumption to 2her will move TOWARDS him, else if you do not do it assuming foward jump and movment AND the swordman does - he kills the horse first. BUT this means that 3 of 4 times the 2her moves away or sideways, causing a miss for both. So a lancer doing it perfectly still has only 3/4 chance to hit.
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Humans being (rightfully) much more maniable than horses in this game, the 2h can also go forward or backward to adjust the distance between him and the rider when the rider starts turning. He can even go full steam towards the right of this pic then suddenly go left as late as possible. The rider has to anticipate the 2h movements. When the footman finally changes direction, it's too late for the horse to react.
Pfft, like that is going to happen with the speed/fucked up audio of the horses :rolleyes:
Also, most of the "good" lancers don't take any risk, they turn at the maximum edge.
Now to the second issue - couches and this technique, when used against short 2h weapons (and all poles =/ pike, longspear, and 1h ofc)
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Humans being (rightfully) much more maniable than horses in this game, the 2h can also go forward or backward to adjust the distance between him and the rider when the rider starts turning. He can even go full steam towards the right of this pic then suddenly go left as late as possible. The rider has to anticipate the 2h movements. When the footman finally changes direction, it's too late for the horse to react.
There is a couple of things wrong with your pic, among other things the rider is making the slightest of turns practicaly going straight and then he turns after he is already struck which makes no sense. The lance isnt facing the 2h, it hits air meaning the cav missed and again it understandable that he gets pwnd for missing. As i said before it portraits a realy bad cav player :?
And this shows how every tehnique can be fucked up by the human factor. But, and i still stand behind this statement, if you do it corectly the 2h cannot outrange the lance.
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Well it's a fact that the heavy lance can outrange the 2hers, there is no denying it.
Used to do it alot myself with the right timing and turns, but it still remains a fact that a good 2her ( big sword ) is a very dangerous target and aslong as they are focused on you they usually never get killed on the first lance pass ( a good player remember ). They either simply avoid the lance, because the horseman is turning to keep only the tip of the lance in range and keep himself out of the sword range, thus making it very easy to just step out of the lances range, or they also have many ways to get the attack in before the cav player if he doesn't keep his max range.
IMO it isn't worth the risk against a good 2h player with a very lengthy sword whilst there are still easier targets on the battlefield, just wait for him to be occupied then pick him off at the edge of the fight.
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I know my pic isn't perfectly accurate. You don't seem to realise my the main point : there is no optimal situation for the cav, thus no way of "doing it correctly". When he does a certain guess about the 2h behavior and anticipate it, if the 2h doesn't do what was expected by the rider, the rider either dies or misses. For each guess the rider can do, the 2h can react accordingly and at least get out alive, most of the time killing the horse.
For example, while he turns to the left, the rider can't really react to a sudden 2h move towards the right. The 2h can take advantage of that by dodging to the right. Micah for example, can prepare the thrust, go to the left, wait till the last moment, go backwards and to the right to dodge the lance while releasing the thrust, then immediatly go left full steam and hit the horse and sometimes the rider at lower speeds.
This is just an example, the most common tactic being going in the same direction as the horse.
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So is this being removed or not?
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I don't have too much trouble defeating a 2h stab as a lancer. It is important to not stab too early, and thus give your target time to position himself accordingly. It also helps to slow down suddenly while charging your quarry--it fucks em up.
Of course, being a lancer, I tend to completely avoid direct confrontation. It is much better to pad you k/d ration with dozens of afk, naked, xbow, noob, and archer kills.
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So is this being removed or not?
Yes.
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It simply not true that there isnt a way of doing it right. As if a 2h leads the tango which is bs, as cav you can approach him whatever way or angle you please and beat him with a bit of skill as described before with the lance range. 2h is not the one on the offensive in this situation and if he is you easily use it againts him.
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obviously people differ but I think if you asked cav would you charge an aware 2h in lolstab they would say 'no, if hes aware he can counter me'. And I think if you asked reasonably minded 2h's whether they could take a charging lancer even if he turned, they wouldnt think themselves screwed or helpless ;)
so we see here that the cav are indeed saying that an aware 2h isnt worth the risk :/ bar maybe for the very top few, who should tbh rightfully beat 2h's anyways. In fact 2h's shouldnt really be able to stand a chance vs a lancer imo, as a 2h your niche should be close combat specialists, being capable of ruining infantry but being weak to cavalry and archers. Clearly this is not how the devs see it and so be it :)
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How come then non-pike polearmers get screwed over even worse? And how come shielders are even worse then both? GK philosophy - all inf should be weak to cav.
Fakkin' bs.
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How come then non-pike polearmers get screwed over even worse? And how come shielders are even worse then both? GK philosophy - all inf should be weak to cav.
Fakkin' bs.
Not at all. Anti-cav weapons should be strong against cav. But weak against inf. Non anti cav weapons should be weak against cav and at a serious disadvantage against cav but strong against melee. Whilst archers already do a good amount of damage to cav (if they are sensible enough to target them). And anything in between should be a mixture of both.
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GK philosophy = keep picking up the kills off those constantly unaware, ill equipped infantry.
If you want a good anti cav weapon, the bamboo spear / light lance / long awlpike / any polearm above 175 length are all valid options if you cant cope with the non block long spear, and then any 150 spear with shield is quite fun (played on my hoplite character).
Pikers got screwed over because of there being loads of pressure for it from the NA, the long spear was a bit ridiculous in close quarters :P
Anyway Bumping is gone but soon to return, back on topic.
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GK philosophy = keep picking up the kills off those constantly unaware, ill equipped infantry.
If you want a good anti cav weapon, the bamboo spear
Bamboo spear is actually pretty lethal now. That guy using them on EU1 when the patch first came out and before everyone joined was doing pretty good damage to cav. More people should use it I think.
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one more thing on horse bumping:
i saw somewhere that you receive the damage you make, how does your personal armour affect the damage you receive? I mean with my heavy armor will i notice it? is it kind of pierce or something? tks in advance
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+1 +1 +1 + OVER 9000
Love this~!
horsebump slash =crushthrough every time basically
now you have to actually STEER the goddamn horse :)
ps. Im one handed cav
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Bamboo spear is actually pretty lethal now. That guy using them on EU1 when the patch first came out and before everyone joined was doing pretty good damage to cav. More people should use it I think.
I as well as many others have been touting the bamboo spears effectiveness for a while now
I think even kesh has had a mw one for a while
and the str reqs on it was pretty low....havent checked to see if that got changed
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Well, in most case this is correct, but you can reasonably expect any cav that managed to come close to you for some reason to have taken an arrow or a bolt.
Futhermore, I'd like to add that I can do this all day long as 2h. And if I'm not that confident, I just block down. Something pikemen can't do anymore trololo.
I wonder why are maul or poleaxe users still allowed to block. Those are more unwieldy than the puny 2,45 m longspears and 3m pikes we have.
It means that now, 1h cav already had like 0 range (meaning their only kill opportunities are unaware people), but additionaly, if they decide for some reason to attack an aware footman, the footman can recklessly attack while throwing himself under the horse because it means he is invulnerable to the rider. And that is broken. Moreover, For 1h cav, the simple slash without bump is extremely unreliable, your target can be unaware but move sideways for some reason, it will either result in you missing or bumping thus being interrupted.
When your 2h sword that protects you from cav, is the all around best duelling weapon and weights nearly nothing will cost 30k gold (horse + 1h wep, I forget the shield because I'm kind), we'll talk about EZ mode.
You know, I am not one of the lulsword users, I am using an mw shortened military scythe and that's far from EZ mode, so stopping a cav with it is challenging. You said that, the simple slash without bump is extremely unreliable, yes that's why cav have to learn aiming actually instead of enjoying the EZ mode bumbslash free kill.
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Oh look, an agility shielder who plays with cloth armour and an archer being in favour of this? WHO WOULD OF THOUGHT
Im 1 handed cav and I support this as well
Your a lancer, and afaik a damn good one. This will not affect you in the slightest.
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Bamboo Spear is decent. Long Lawlpike is great.
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Long Awlpike was always better weapon than Long Spear but people are like monkeys in general so they tend to copy what others do...
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So is this being removed or not?
No, its going to be switched toa percentage chance based on weight of the horse and the level of riding skill (courtesy of IRC chat). I think this is a great addition to skillfull caving (have been playing almost exclusively my cav alt since patch hit)
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No, its going to be switched toa percentage chance based on weight of the horse and the level of riding skill (courtesy of IRC chat). I think this is a great addition to skillfull caving (have been playing almost exclusively my cav alt since patch hit)
They should do the same for infantry, if you're in heavy armor you shouldn't be knocked down every effin' time...
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They should do the same for infantry, if you're in heavy armor you shouldn't be knocked down every effin' time...
Wearing an additional 30 kilos of stuff is going to help when an unarmoured 800kilo or armoured 1000kilo horse not counting rider says "move?"
Here in the southwest where I live, if a horse or a cow moves towards you, you don't really have a choice in the matter.
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It also seems simple enough from a math perspective. Hidden bonuses taken into account, heavy lance has ~20 cm on DGS stab. All you need to do, then, is to get your horse out of the way, which you do by turning.
Umbra, for example, is more skilled 2h than Murmillus or Caffein, so knows how to use thrust better than them.
But yeah, maybe some actually good cav could say what they think. I saw Ironlake lurking the thread earlier but he didn't say nuthin'.
I'm more skilled than the lot of you put together.
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I'm more skilled than the lot of you put together.
As a comedian? :lol:
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As a comedian? :lol:
As the God of mankind.
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cav was already of really little use in strat, and 1h was already too much weak. Can't understand the porpouse of this change, it just make 1h cav a not doable class, and horse lancers a lot less fun.
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cav was already of really little use in strat, and 1h was already too much weak. Can't understand the porpouse of this change, it just make 1h cav a not doable class, and horse lancers a lot less fun.
Its a mistake just wait for the hotfix like they said.
No use of this thread anymore...
Its funny how come cmp locks every just about every thread thats slighty off topic but this..... :rolleyes:
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No use of this thread anymore...
This.
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Its funny how come cmp locks every just about every thread thats slighty off topic but this..... :rolleyes:
Because as me, I'm guessing he has a sense of humour and also like me finds this thread incredibly funny.