Horse Bumping

[Xant]

It also seems simple enough from a math perspective. Hidden bonuses taken into account, heavy lance has ~20 cm on DGS stab. All you need to do, then, is to get your horse out of the way, which you do by turning.

Umbra, for example, is more skilled 2h than Murmillus or Caffein, so knows how to use thrust better than them.

But yeah, maybe some actually good cav could say what they think. I saw Ironlake lurking the thread earlier but he didn't say nuthin'.

[Fluffy_Muffin]

I'm interested in hearing what a good lancer has to say about being outranged by two handers... somebody call one?

Well i do remember Oberyn mastering said technique. I dont try to stab him as i will get struck i just downblock

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

It also seems simple enough from a math perspective. Hidden bonuses taken into account, heavy lance has ~20 cm on DGS stab. All you need to do, then, is to get your horse out of the way, which you do by turning.

Umbra, for example, is more skilled 2h than Murmillus or Caffein, so knows how to use thrust better than them.

But yeah, maybe some actually good cav could say what they think. I saw Ironlake lurking the thread earlier but he didn't say nuthin'.

taking into account you cant lance more than 40 degrees ;) that more than makes up 20 cm

[Wookimonsta]

well i consider myself a pretty decent lancer. With the old turning values it was easy to out-distance 2h since you could turn so the horse was perpendicular to the lance. This meant your lance had max range and it THERE outdistanced the 2h. With the current values though, the margin of length is MUCH closer and it becomes a matter of timing and often sheer luck.

[Kafein]

Xant's and Siiem's accounts were hacked by a retarded person. That's my best explanation of why good 2h outrange lances.


Protip :

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Works best with large horses btw.

[Xant]

So wait, is the 2h between the cav player's lance and the horse's head in your drawing?

You need to draw where the players start from as well, otherwise it makes no sense. The cav doesn't start turning before the 2h is attacking, giving the 2h no chance to "move cleverly towards the trajectory." Just think about it, brah. The cav can move to the other side as much as is needed.

[PhantomZero]

So wait, is the 2h between the cav player's lance and the horse's head in your drawing?

Yes

[Fluffy_Muffin]

Nothing wrong with that pic it clearly represents the situation when a cav with bad reactions goes head on, turns his horse too late and rightfully gets owned.

Now can you draw a situation when the cav angles his horse before its already too late?

[Xant]

Yes

Goddamn wizardry, I say.

[Kafein]

Nothing wrong with that pic it clearly represents the situation when a cav with bad reactions goes head on, turns his horse too late and rightfully gets owned.

Now can you draw a situation when the cav angles his horse before its already too late?

Humans being (rightfully) much more maniable than horses in this game, the 2h can also go forward or backward to adjust the distance between him and the rider when the rider starts turning. He can even go full steam towards the right of this pic then suddenly go left as late as possible. The rider has to anticipate the 2h movements. When the footman finally changes direction, it's too late for the horse to react.

[Sir_Ironlake]

Here is my opinion on the matter, though take into account that recently I have not played as much lancer, more 1h cav.

An experienced lancer can outreach a 2h sword stab, but only in ideal circumstances and with maximum skill. Since the 40° change, this being so difficult that I would not think anyone but the top 3 lancers on EU and them only when on their best could reliable hit a staby 2her. Despite having a lot of experience as cav myself, ever since the change I did not attempt 2hers in such situations albeit because I was not playing lancer all the time - maybe if I was I would have.

This however, I think is a problem, since a 2her is the ultimate melee weapon and it has anti cav cabalities which are at worst decent and at best deadly. A single stab is usually a horse kill and this means 90% of the time the rider dies before even standing up. Now, if this were a pike or spear this would be expected in terms of danger to horses - but pikes and spears have serious drawbacks in other fights while the 2her is supreme in them.

And another issue is that a decent swordsman can use the stab anti cav with great effect while it takes maximum experience to even try to lance him, and horsemen shouldnt (and most longer living ones - DONT) even attempt so. Also we should consider that an aware swordman is not in danger of a lance, even if it wouldnt have the ability to own him, due to down block and jumping aside.

So in conclusion, even though theoreticaly the lance beats the 2h sword, in practice I would say that 2her anti cav potential is too high and would almost always bet on a 2her stabing over a lancer (1on1).

p.s.
also the last Kafein's post is right, and a good lancer must adjust so that he strikes with perfect range on assumption to 2her will move TOWARDS him, else if you do not do it assuming foward jump and movment AND the swordman does - he kills the horse first.  BUT this means that 3 of 4 times the 2her moves away or sideways, causing a miss for both. So a lancer doing it perfectly still has only 3/4 chance to hit. 

[Dezilagel]

Humans being (rightfully) much more maniable than horses in this game, the 2h can also go forward or backward to adjust the distance between him and the rider when the rider starts turning. He can even go full steam towards the right of this pic then suddenly go left as late as possible. The rider has to anticipate the 2h movements. When the footman finally changes direction, it's too late for the horse to react.

Pfft, like that is going to happen with the speed/fucked up audio of the horses 

Also, most of the "good" lancers don't take any risk, they turn at the maximum edge.

Now to the second issue - couches and this technique, when used against short 2h weapons (and all poles =/ pike, longspear, and 1h ofc)

[Fluffy_Muffin]

Humans being (rightfully) much more maniable than horses in this game, the 2h can also go forward or backward to adjust the distance between him and the rider when the rider starts turning. He can even go full steam towards the right of this pic then suddenly go left as late as possible. The rider has to anticipate the 2h movements. When the footman finally changes direction, it's too late for the horse to react.

There is a couple of things wrong with your pic, among other things the rider is making the slightest of turns practicaly going straight and then he turns after he is already struck which makes no sense. The lance isnt facing the 2h, it hits air meaning the cav missed and again it understandable that he gets pwnd for missing. As i said before it portraits a realy bad cav player 

And this shows how every tehnique can be fucked up by the human factor. But, and i still stand behind this statement, if you do it corectly the 2h cannot outrange the lance.

[Leesin]

Well it's a fact that the heavy lance can outrange the 2hers, there is no denying it.

Used to do it alot myself with the right timing and turns, but it still remains a fact that a good 2her ( big sword ) is a very dangerous target and aslong as they are focused on you they usually never get killed on the first lance pass ( a good player remember ). They either simply avoid the lance, because the horseman is turning to keep only the tip of the lance in range and keep himself out of the sword range, thus making it very easy to just step out of the lances range, or they also have many ways to get the attack in before the cav player if he doesn't keep his max range.

IMO it isn't worth the risk against a good 2h player with a very lengthy sword whilst there are still easier targets on the battlefield, just wait for him to be occupied then pick him off at the edge of the fight.

[Kafein]

I know my pic isn't perfectly accurate. You don't seem to realise my the main point : there is no optimal situation for the cav, thus no way of "doing it correctly". When he does a certain guess about the 2h behavior and anticipate it, if the 2h doesn't do what was expected by the rider, the rider either dies or misses. For each guess the rider can do, the 2h can react accordingly and at least get out alive, most of the time killing the horse.

For example, while he turns to the left, the rider can't really react to a sudden 2h move towards the right. The 2h can take advantage of that by dodging to the right. Micah for example, can prepare the thrust, go to the left, wait till the last moment, go backwards and to the right to dodge the lance while releasing the thrust, then immediatly go left full steam and hit the horse and sometimes the rider at lower speeds.

This is just an example, the most common tactic being going in the same direction as the horse.