cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: MrShine on August 18, 2011, 07:01:52 pm
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Hello,
So in general I'm a fan of the recent armor soak/glance changes which have reduced the chance of weapons glancing on armor. Those sorts of glances were very aggravating and it was a good change to make.
The big loser though was cut damage, which becomes very ineffective against armor. Now that higher incoming damage reduction is compensating somewhat for the reduced chance to glance it takes many more hits to kill with a cut weapon as opposed to pierce and blunt. This isn't necessarily a problem in itself, but given that the majority of the weapons in the game are focused around doing cut damage it seems like a fresh look at item balance is in order.
I personally think that slightly increasing cut damage's penetration of armor reductions (ie - slightly nerf armor against cut weapons) would be a good change. Cut damage already does well against lightly armored units and I don't think they need to have higher base damage.
In closing I still think that cut should be worse against armor compared to the others, but without some changes I fear that we'll end up seeing too many of the same weapons. There are so many more cut weapons than there are these blunt and pierce ones, and I personally love having lots of different possibilities for equipment.
Thoughts?
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What's the pierce damage like on most swords thrust? Seems like the solution is already there for those who can be bothered to use it.
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It's fine as it is. I am cut damage user.
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Don't change it.
Now you actually have a reason to take the shorter pierce/blunt damage weapons over the cut damage ones.
Wanna kill peasants, archers and ninja? Take a sword.
Wanna kill a tincan? Bring a can-opener.
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I agree with the OP. We're just going to be seeing the same few weapons in everyones hands now. Too many people wear heavy armour for it to be worth while to even look at a cut weapon. This is a problem for both melee and ranged as well. Arrows do next to nothing to plate, and while that's not such a problem since archers can choose their targets easily, as a thrower, the cut changes made pretty much every hybrid friendly or low to mid range PT req throwing weapon completely useless. As if throwing wasn't bad enough, we have to use the most expensive and heavy throwing weapons or get completely stomped by plate every round. They don't even have to dodge anymore.
I agree, the change was a good one, but item rebalancing is in order. It was too global a change to just make and leave everything else. The OP makes some good suggestions.
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I'm with Mr. Shine here.
Don't want to sound like a parrot, so.. that's it.
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Since everyone and their mother now has a set of loomed armor and gloves they are all in fact running around in plate armors stat wise so yeah i wouldnt mind a slight buff of dmg having to hit people in mail armor 5 times with my MW flamberge is just retarded considering its high price and 49 cut dmg.
Imo its a problem that might is bound to the fact that u can have +14 body armor with loomed gear might take a look at armor heirlooms before a tweak of the dmg happens.
Most weapons became pointless to heirloom after the nerf but armor/xbows where untouched.
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lol Lech, you can - all of our comments. Is that all you've got? :lol:
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lol Lech, you can - all of our comments. Is that all you've got? :lol:
yes.
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no reason at all to buff cut, its fine the way it is now....there is actually a DOWNside to using a sword now.
you either take speed+reach or armor penetration
plus against mail armor most cut weapons break even or very close to what an equivalent blunt/pierce would do. You need 50+ armor or more before blunt/pierce start to have rightful advantage
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I agree with Mrshine too : a change would be nice. Nothing to fancy, just a slight change in armor penetration should do the trick.
Don't change it.
Now you actually have a reason to take the shorter pierce/blunt damage weapons over the cut damage ones.
Wanna kill peasants, archers and ninja? Take a sword.
Wanna kill a tincan? Bring a can-opener.
This has always been true. Even before the glance chances changed, you always had a good reason to keep a pierce weapon with yourself. The problem isnt a balance within weapons, but within armor, especially since alot of people use heirloomed armors.
Digglez you say the difference isn't noticeable before 50 armor point. I feel like its noticeable before that but i might be wrong. Yet 50 armor is 15-16 weight (heraldic mail + polished gauntlet : 50 armor, 15.6 weight). Most of the melee char are either close or above that number.
Atm, STR builds are the most viable, and they kinda keep their advantages as most of the weapons (cut is most of the weapons) will deal less damage to them.
I don't think this thread is about a buff to cut based weapons, but about keepin' the Blunt>pierce>cut balance as it was before.
(and once again, don't touch the weapons stats, they are pretty much balanced atm)
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I feel like this is going to pretty much be a dead split between people who wear heavy armor and people who use cut weapons with everyone else just not caring. This is one of the most self serving communities I have ever experienced.
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cut weapons already have higher damage ratings than blunt/pierces so it makes no sense to buff them. i'll post some dmg examples later
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Imo its a problem that might is bound to the fact that u can have +14 body armor with loomed gear might take a look at armor heirlooms before a tweak of the dmg happens.
Most weapons became pointless to heirloom after the nerf but armor/xbows where untouched.
^this
But I think that next patch that issue will be ressolved and that xbows and armor heirlooms would get well deserved nerf.
Best proof for this is the fact that people want loomed Gothic Plate with Bevor, something no one ever wanted to wear just because they get +7 to head armor as well...
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Going for 15 / 24 this gen.
Absolutely astonished that 5 ps is enough to maintain a 3.5 / 4.0 to 1
k/d.
Agibuilds are valid, playable and effective. You really need to play em lil more cautios, aim for heads.
Cut damage is fine as it is :-)
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cut weapons already have higher damage ratings than blunt/pierces so it makes no sense to buff them. i'll post some dmg examples later
This.
I'm pretty sure a great long bardiche overhead (46 cut) would deal more damage than an english bill overhead (31p), even against an armored target.
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Long Bardiche is 45 cut, Long Hafted Spiked Mace is the highest blunt damage polearm aside from the long maul, with 32 blunt damage.
Against 60 armor, according to the damage calculator:
Bardiche:
Min: 10
Avg:22.5
Max: 35
LHSM:
Min: 13
Avg: 21.5
Max: 30
(18str, 6PS, 130 WPF), with their having equal averages at 2PS. At 36STR, 13PS, 130WPF, the Bardiche still has a lower minimum, higher average and maximum. This changes if somebody uses the great maul, but that has other disadvantages. The Bardiche also does more damage to weaker armor, so I think it's fine.
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Long Bardiche is 45 cut, Long Hafted Spiked Mace is the highest blunt damage polearm aside from the long maul, with 32 blunt damage.
Against 60 armor, according to the damage calculator:
Bardiche:
Min: 10
Avg:22.5
Max: 35
LHSM:
Min: 13
Avg: 21.5
Max: 30
(18str, 6PS, 130 WPF), with their having equal averages at 2PS. At 36STR, 13PS, 130WPF, the Bardiche still has a lower minimum, higher average and maximum. This changes if somebody uses the great maul, but that has other disadvantages. The Bardiche also does more damage to weaker armor, so I think it's fine.
I don't think the damage calculator has been updated with the newest armor soak/reduction numbers, iirc that's using the old formula.
I'll see if I can do some tests over the weekend if laziness doesn't overcome.
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Those are the calculations for the old formula, it's completely different now.
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As an almost exclusive sword user i say i feel the last patch brought weapons in line nicely, and in fact gave swords an incredible boost. The numbers on the item matter for naught pre-patch as one would just constantly glance off armor. Now see glances much less often which leads to many more kills/assists. Also, now there's reason to use weapons from the blunt/cut/piercing classes instead of them just being reskin of the same item. Want reach and speed? Get a sword. Want more damage to cans? Get a club/ pick.
What people seem to fail to remember is that many of those tin cans you so hate also use cutting weapons so in addition to still having more armor than the rest of us with any change, a buff to the weapons would make them back into slaughter houses. If you tweak cut so that it can take down a tin can in a few hits, what's it going to do to a guy who prefers medium armor? How about a light armor guy like me?
As for the "5 hits to kill" that was the whole point of the new patch so that fights last for long enough to be interesting instead of the one-hit-KO fest we saw all the time pre-patch.
Out of all the changes made last major patch, i think the damage tweaks were the best and don't need to be changed at all.
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Finally a non-contaminated LLJK. I'll blanket ban you last.
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As an almost exclusive sword user i say i feel the last patch brought weapons in line nicely, and in fact gave swords an incredible boost. The numbers on the item matter for naught pre-patch as one would just constantly glance off armor. Now see glances much less often which leads to many more kills/assists. Also, now there's reason to use weapons from the blunt/cut/piercing classes instead of them just being reskin of the same item. Want reach and speed? Get a sword. Want more damage to cans? Get a club/ pick.
What people seem to fail to remember is that many of those tin cans you so hate also use cutting weapons so in addition to still having more armor than the rest of us with any change, a buff to the weapons would make them back into slaughter houses. If you tweak cut so that it can take down a tin can in a few hits, what's it going to do to a guy who prefers medium armor? How about a light armor guy like me?
As for the "5 hits to kill" that was the whole point of the new patch so that fights last for long enough to be interesting instead of the one-hit-KO fest we saw all the time pre-patch.
Out of all the changes made last major patch, i think the damage tweaks were the best and don't need to be changed at all.
^^exactly what he said. if you buff cut, we just go back to the way things were, everyone in plate using 2h sword.
Here is link to updated excel sheet to calculate dmg.
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,12223.msg172550.html#msg172550
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^^exactly what he said. if you buff cut, we just go back to the way things were, everyone in plate using 2h sword.
Wait, we're kinda at that point again.
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Why is everyone going on and on about buffing cut weapons? If you look at the stats they are already fine. Sure the OP gave option on that poll to vote for a cut weapon buff, but if you notice no one is even voting for that. Two only real two options on the table are, change the way cut effects armour, or do nothing.
A cut weapon buff isn't what is needed. What is needed is some tweaks in how much cut damage armour soaks.
If the soak were a little less severe I might be in favour of doing nothing, however I feel like cut has just been too far separated from the rest of the weapons. That calculator is way out of date, and real stats might help this discussion continue. The point is, there is no reason to use anything with "cut" anymore. If you think there is, then you're wrong or stubborn or just like to argue. In many cases the cut weapons aren't even much cheaper then the pierce or blunt making it a no brainer. There is next to no reason to use them because they are incredibly ineffective against plate or heavy armour wearers. Why use a weapon that can only kill some people when you can just grab one that can kill everyone? Do you want to have to hit someone twenty times with a cut weapon when you know you could just grab something with pierce or blunt and finish the job in a fraction of the hits?
No. Obviously not.
I don't use cut melee weapons as often as I use cut throwing weapons so I'll have to just give an example from my experience. From my experience, I was told by Paul up there, that if I'm using cut throwing weapons I should "pretend they are bouncing off" if I skillfully stick half my ammo into one person with plate. Well ok, that's fairly retarded. If they are bouncing off then can you go ahead and make it so I can pick them back off? Because as it stands all those axes that "bounce off" are actually firmly embedded in someone who failed to die, and they proceed to run off with them like jewellery. Regardless, if I'm to understand that cut is useless against armour, then here is my thought process.
I like heavy throwing axes. They have a nice animation and are easy to find on the ground to pick back up again. They are much more visible in the air so I find tracking and judging targets is smoother as well. While the air speed is slower, they seem to draw back and throw more quickly and that makes them more suited to a skirmisher build with less powerthrow and more athletics. They are also not as incredibly expensive as the pierce weapons by about 2-5k depending. Those costs stack up when you carry multiple of them and I find I lose money even in the lightest cheap armour if I carry my loomed throwing spears. Cut throwing weapons however just can't kill plate.
So that puts me in a position. On the NA servers, the only people who don't wear heavy armour are archers and new players. Also me, since there are a lot of parallels with archery for some reason. It's like people think that every loom point on their armour adds an inch to their dicks, and they think their dicks should drag. Now I can choose between going completely broke but helping my team by using weapons that slow me down but can kill my targets, or I can use the best weapon I can afford to use consistently, but not be able to contribute to my team because my weapons "bounce off" everyone.
Go ahead and try to make that choice. I haven't been able to. I couldn't say how many times I have been on a team using cut weapons trying to recoup financial losses from using pierce weapons, and it comes down to me being the last alive agaist some guy in plate.
What am I supposed to say? "Sorry, we have already lost because my weapons bounce off him. He isn't even good at dodging, he just wont die. He has defeated me by having more money rather then skill."
All I can really offer is that insight to how the armour soak changes effected my gameplay as a thrower. Pretty significantly honestly.
tl:dr: There is no reason to use cut weapons anymore. The cut weapons don't need a buff, armour needs further balancing.
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I think that something should be done to armor, too. So many people have loomed armor now and are running around with 70+ armor and still being fast because loomedlol. Combine that with slower combat pace and meh.
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I think that something should be done to armor, too. So many people have loomed armor now and are running around with 70+ armor and still being fast because loomedlol. Combine that with slower combat pace and meh.
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I have PS 8 and I use 39 cut weapon (MW Longsword). I hit koldborn who is wearing Lordly Rus mail once in the head (hold overhead) then 3 times right slash (spam). He survived.
Don't want you to buff cut damage, I want you to do something about armors.
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I have to agree, the amount of hits I need with 6 ps and a 43 cut weapon is really astonishing. Pretty much everyone used to go down in 3-4 and the occasional 5 back when I had 5 ps prepatch. Now its worse and I've had to hit people 6 or more times, with every hit dealing damage, but just a tiny bit. Still love the less glancing though.
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I don't understand these statements at all.
So prepatch with my sword i wouldn't kill many people because my slices would glance off of them consantly doing no damage while theirs would continue through what i thought would be an interrupt and split me in half. The arguement that it takes 5 to 6 swings to kill someone in heavier armor boggles my mind, do you guys not remember two months ago when it would take 8 to 10 because more than half of the blows would glance? I certainly do.
From personal experience it takes fewer swings overall with the current system to kill a can than in the last system simply because every hit doesn't bounce off with laugable ineffectiveness. Beyond that the ability to actually hit a target and cause interrupts means that a pair of guys with swords can acutally effectively stop a can, instead of bouncing off armor as the whirling typhoon invulnerably strolls casually along.
I'm starting to get the feeling that the people who have issue with new armor soak have ridiculously high STR builds and are used to 1 hitting because their extra PS meant they didn't glance before. I'm sure it sucks for those who had 9 and 10 PS because it's not as much of an advantage before but for the rest of the peons from between 5 to 7 PS (around average) the armor soak change has been nothing but a boon in terms of our effectiveness in combat and our utility to our team.
I will agree that we need some hardcore walt+f4ing in here though or else everyone is going off of their own personal experience, which is a bit difficult since many of us have wildly differing builds.
I was honestly surprised that this conversation had gone this far as the patch was like Christmas for my build. It's starting to dawn on my that it might not have been so great for others, but the question is where is the disconnect? The patch was obviously a mega-boon for mid PS cut users, how do ultra low (<5) and above standard (8+) PS players feel?
6PS checking in here.
e: Also the thought of cut being worthless now boggles my mind. I've never gotten so many kills with a scimi as post-patch, and i remember the noted increase in actual effectiveness back when they were testing on EU pre-patch between the EU server and the NA server. Before hand cut was idiotic, just watch your weapon bounce into eternity. Now the blade actually slices through, causes stun, and makes for an effective tool in single and group combat.
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I'm just unsatisfied because we're at square one, where we were pre-upkeep patch. Bunch of people have ridiculous amounts of defense points but unlike befoer they wear medium armor so they aren't slow and don't suffer penalties of wearing heavy armor.
To be able to compete with those players, one must grind his ass off, until he gets such gear for himself.
I find that this completely defeats the purpose of original upkeep patch.
We're back at heavy grind. Now it's even worse than before.
Devs must change armor heirlooms ASAP. Not in month or so, in a week!!!
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just make it +1 armor for the first 2 points then +2 on the last that would make it even with the recent weapon heirloom nerf.
Xbows.. not even gonna try asking for a loom nerf....
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Yes, they should look into armor heirlooms, instead of cut damage.
It just went a bit too extreme in my opinion, as well.
Minus me for this if you want, I don't give a damn.
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As a 1hander (mostly with a sword)/ hoplite/polearmer /lancer i say keep the damage values, but maybe slightly reduce the bonuses heirloomed armors give.
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I personally saw this patch as a huge change to armor precisely because of the glance change. Whereas a person could wade into combat completely effective 80% of the time because many blows would glance, allowing him to carry through on an undefended swing (on someone who probably has less armor) now someone in plate has to play smart, as if they are surrounded by even two people they can be strike-locked to death.
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A cut weapon buff isn't what is needed. What is needed is some tweaks in how much cut damage armour soaks.
If they can't adjust each damage type individually they will have to nerf pierce and blunt weapons then to prevent them becoming OP.
I have PS 8 and I use 39 cut weapon (MW Longsword). I hit koldborn who is wearing Lordly Rus mail once in the head (hold overhead) then 3 times right slash (spam). He survived.
Don't want you to buff cut damage, I want you to do something about armors.
If they weaken armors significantly they will have to weaken bows as well.
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snip
I don't know about you, but I didn't glance anymore prepatch than I do now. Always 6-7 PS, 6 atm. Well, actually... I glance more now than I did prepatch, since only recently people have started having lordly body armor and lordly gloves.
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Ylca, permanently boggled.
edit:
If they can't adjust each damage type individually they will have to nerf pierce and blunt weapons then to prevent them becoming OP.
If they weaken armors significantly they will have to weaken bows as well.
...what?
Why don't you think they can adjust the soak of individual damage types? They did, to cut. That's why we're here. And most of the bows do pathetic damage or are ridiculously slow. I can say that as someone who both gets hit with a lot of arrows, and has very recently made an archer alt.
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Ylca, permanently boggled.
Always easier to make a clever quip than to touch on points, isn't it? Definitely makes the conversation progress towards a common ground i always say, and is the height of productive discussion.
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As someone who mains 1h I prefer the armor changes WAY more than how it used to be. I don't mind it taking longer to kill someone since ALL of my attacks do damage no matter what armor the person is wearing. It also allows 1-handed sword users to turn into their swings more. Oftentimes now I can kill a lot of 2 hander and pole users before they can even get a swing in.
Also, there's one thing that everyone has to realize about cut damage. Cut weapons often have a MUCH higher base damage then blunt or pierce weapons. That makes them FANTASTIC for head hits. For example, my Mighty German Poleaxe will do 90 damage to the head before speed bonus, PS bonus and armor reduction. Most people don't survive 1 hit, let alone 2.
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As someone who mains 1h I prefer the armor changes WAY more than how it used to be. I don't mind it taking longer to kill someone since ALL of my attacks do damage no matter what armor the person is wearing. It also allows 1-handed sword users to turn into their swings more. Oftentimes now I can kill a lot of 2 hander and pole users before they can even get a swing in.
Also, there's one thing that everyone has to realize about cut damage. Cut weapons often have a MUCH higher base damage then blunt or pierce weapons. That makes them FANTASTIC for head hits. For example, my Mighty German Poleaxe will do 90 damage to the head before speed bonus, PS bonus and armor reduction. Most people don't survive 1 hit, let alone 2.
QFT, i also always aim for the head with my strikes, perhaps this is the cause of the disparity between our view of the patch and other cut users?
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QFT, i also always aim for the head with my strikes, perhaps this is the cause of the disparity between our view of the patch and other cut users?
That could indeed be the case. I also think a lot of people believe that every weapon should be good at EVERYTHING. Right now, all the damage types are in a good place.
Pierce weapons do the most damage to people in heavy armor.
Blunt weapons do a moderate amount of damage but have knockdown.
Cut weapons do the most damage to people wearing light armor. Also, cut weapons have the most utility. Swords are the fastest, often longest weapons in the game and have decent pierce values. Axes are incredibly handy.
You can't expect one weapon to be perfect in every situation.
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You can't expect one weapon to be perfect in every situation.
And yet there are many weapons/playstyles that can shine in almost every situation, while others get raped.
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And yet there are many weapons/playstyles that can shine in almost every situation, while others get raped.
Don't you think that this calls for a review of those weapons rather than making all weapons into one homogenous mess of the same item with a different skin?
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Always easier to make a clever quip than to touch on points, isn't it? Definitely makes the conversation progress towards a common ground i always say, and is the height of productive discussion.
Oh, I wasn't trying to engage in conversation with you. I've already touched on quite a few points and contributed to the discussion. I was just taking a break to tease you about the number of times you said your mind was boggled. You gotta learn how to relax and stop taking yourself so seriously bro. You might start lasting longer in TS. Or in clans too I suppose.
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Oh, I wasn't trying to engage in conversation with you. I've already touched on quite a few points and contributed to the discussion. I was just taking a break to tease you about the number of times you said your mind was boggled. You gotta learn how to relax and stop taking yourself so seriously bro. You might start lasting longer in TS. Or in clans too I suppose.
You do realize that i'm still in clan and that i spend significantly more time in TS than you, right? =P
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I don't think this is a problem with cut damage as much as it is a problem with high tier armour especially when it is heirloomed, as a 15/21 cavalry player even my Masterwork Heavy Lance (30 pierce) takes 3-5 hits to kill someone in plate armour when I am going at a decent speed.
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The problem is too many people still wear heavy armor.
Look on the servers. Right now, there are 4 guys, all riding Cataphracts, wearing full plate, with a shield, using a Xbow along with their swords.
Srsly Devs, you cant pump millions of gold into the game, and then expect upkeep to keep it balanced.
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The problem is too many people still wear heavy armor.
Look on the servers. Right now, there are 4 guys, all riding Cataphracts, wearing full plate, with a shield, using a Xbow along with their swords.
Srsly Devs, you cant pump millions of gold into the game, and then expect upkeep to keep it balanced.
Which is why upkeep should be increased on high tier items. But that's a whole different thing...
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Which is why upkeep should be increased on high tier items. But that's a whole different thing...
WRONG! There is no way that the only people who can use those items are those who were able to stack 25 retires and heirlooms when it was easy to do in 3 days, and then sell half of them for 3-4 million gold to use for the next 3 years. C-RPG needed a Gold WIPE before they implemented the new market system, along with the heirloom takeaways that were done.
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WRONG! There is no way that the only people who can use those items are those who were able to stack 25 retires and heirlooms when it was easy to do in 3 days, and then sell half of them for 3-4 million gold to use for the next 3 years. C-RPG needed a Gold WIPE before they implemented the new market system, along with the heirloom takeaways that were done.
1. A gold wipe/item wipe would have just pissed off a lot of people and a lot of people would have quit.
2. People who have invested a lot of time into something SHOULD get rewarded. The "C" in CRPG doesn't stand for Communist.
3. If someone REALLY has a gold problem it's easily solved by retiring once and selling that heirloom point for 400k or so.
4. If you're using medium gear on a character you can make TONS of gold very quickly. I've made 50k on one of my alts in the past couple weeks.
Some people have a ton of gold in this game. Nothing you can do about that. However, if it were REALLY punishing to use the high end stuff they would either use it a lot less or it would eat up their money considerably. Also, someone riding around on a plated charger with a steel shield and plate doesn't make the game less fun for me. On the contrary, it makes it more fun when I stop their horse and then kill them off the top of it. :twisted:
Back to topic though: cut damage is fine.
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You do realize that i'm still in clan and that i spend significantly more time in TS than you, right? =P
Yup, and they still like me way better. 8-)
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Yup, and they still like me way better. 8-)
Such is the curse of my life :cry:
Damn artists, stealing hearts and minds.
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It's interesting how this is almost a dead heat. Overall slightly more want a change than don't, but the 'fine as is' category is leading as a stand alone.
I want to reiterate that I personally don't think anything drastic is needed - cut should be the worst of the three vs armor, but maybe ultimately reducing the amount of swings needed to kill a tank by 1 or 2 at those high tier numbers would be nice. That still means 5-7 swings in some cases :wink:
Also sorry I didn't test this out yet - I really should try to help the case with numbers (unless anyone wants to add their own!)
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It's interesting how this is almost a dead heat. Overall slightly more want a change than don't, but the 'fine as is' category is leading as a stand alone.
I want to reiterate that I personally don't think anything drastic is needed - cut should be the worst of the three vs armor, but maybe ultimately reducing the amount of swings needed to kill a tank by 1 or 2 at those high tier numbers would be nice. That still means 5-7 swings in some cases :wink:
Also sorry I didn't test this out yet - I really should try to help the case with numbers (unless anyone wants to add their own!)
I use cut 75% of the time and dont think it needs any reduction, dont expect to easily kill heavily armored opponents with cut weapons. And if cut receives any increase in armor penetration, so should blunt & pierce by the same amount.
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I think armor should protect people.
However a problem arises when those people are able to wear heavy armor all the time. Then shit gets fucked up. Then people begin to complain about being unable to hurt their enemies with cut weapons, because their enemies use cut-resistant armor all the fucking time.
Nerf heavy armor so it doesn't protect people as much? Then there's no point in fucking owning it--it is not 'heavy' armor, it is not special, it merely is.
Make it more expensive, just like what has been done to cavalry? Pffffffffffft pffffffff pfffft. Like that'll happen.
Buff cut damage? No, for lightly armored people will suffer just as much as heavily armored people.
Tweak armor? What is 'tweak'? Does tweak mean lower its effectiveness? If so, see my question marked phrase whereby I already know the answer but ask anyway to prove a point and take up space.
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Maybe buff precision shots/slashes for cut?
Is it possible to increase armor penetration for only slashes to the head?
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It would be cool if cut damage multiplied for hitting twice in the same spot. Pierce goes though armor, but cut just cuts into it, not deep enough? Well hitting twice in the same spot could be like cutting through the armor, and then cutting into the person and actually doing some decent damage. It would add a bit more strategy to using cut weapons, entirely different from pierce or blunt.
And let's be honest. Anything but arrows pretty much one hits people wearing light armor anyway when you get to the 30-31 range. 2 hits if they have some IF. It's not like any solution we come up with will actually screw over us light armor wearers.
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This shit needs to stop, I want my warband experience back. This is just stupid, I can survive like 4-5 blows in my Lamellar. The enemies do the same, I dont like this one bit! Major rant post!
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i dont think gold should b wiped but quite frankly my assumption is all these veterens just have stacks of gold there sitting on and also to be blunt seeing how people are spending bare minimum 450k per loom AND $$$$ on armor,cav,bows,arbs,fancy weps,etc would there b a possibility that eventually it would even out and be as flat broke as average joe?i hear so many people selling their looms THATS ALL THOSE TINCANS N PL8ed CHARGERS!!!!!!i just dont see how it will last long badplayer tells me all the time how his build cant break even at x5 so he sells his looms
BUT BACK TO CUT!!!!!it should not be changed i just think there should be more sweet spots not just the head.like you get a bonus for hits to there nee and elbows seeing how in the middle ages the main thing they did was target the sockets of the armor not trying to cut the chest pl8 in half
(p.s i mainly do overhead n stab attacks to pl8 with my glaive to counter the cut nerf)
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i'm fine with cut being ineffective against guys in heavy armor, but the last cut nerf was excessive i think. ideally for me greatswords would oneshot cloth, twoshot light leather,etc up to 5-6 swings for a guy in plate
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cyranule can 2shot me with his danish in my 70+ armor setting, cut damage is fine
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ummm maybe im mistaken isnt he a str build?(kinda talking out of my ass right now i believe i played him before)
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cyranule can 2shot me with his danish in my 70+ armor setting, cut damage is fine
That has to be head shots w/ speed bonus, you aren't going to ever 2 shot anyone in 70+ armor with cut damage otherwise.
E: Votes are still close, but it looks like there is a slight majority of people who think some change is needed as opposed to leaving things exactly as they are. I'd be interested in hearing if there are any plans from devs to revisit some of the balance on these things :)
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Variation with cut damage is off the charts now. Even with 48 cut, 10 Power Strike, archers in light armor survive held torso hits all the time. Naked people survive a swing sometimes. Meanwhile, plate wearers take 4-5+ swings to down.
I'm fine with cut being ineffective on plate, but it should slaughter people in light armor. Current variation in cut damage doesn't ensure that.
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Cut damage should be nerfed for swords. They shouldn't be able to slash through most types of metal armor.
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Meh I don't slash people anymore, only when I have to. Overhead, overhead, overhead... it's a must!
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At least with my Long Bardiche, overheads mean I will TK someone behind me at least once a round, if not more.
Doesn't mean I don't still do it...and I generally don't apologize for backswing TKs, because I shouldn't be expected to run around with my camera reversed just to avoid this. Really, backswing hits should be removed from the game.
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i dont... i think they r lulz and should be kept i love doing those on accident its funny
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That has to be head shots w/ speed bonus, you aren't going to ever 2 shot anyone in 70+ armor with cut damage otherwise.
E: Votes are still close, but it looks like there is a slight majority of people who think some change is needed as opposed to leaving things exactly as they are. I'd be interested in hearing if there are any plans from devs to revisit some of the balance on these things :)
two clean shots to my midsection in a danish sweetspot pretty much.
Cut damage is wonky, i'll say that.
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Now even more than ever.
Welcome back, glancing...
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Welcome back game including medieval technology, including plate armor, including its function, ie to be pretty much immune to all but the most heavy cut damage.
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Welcome back game including medieval technology, including plate armor, including its function, ie to be pretty much immune to all but the most heavy cut damage.
So you admit that you suck so much that you have to crutch on armor.
I understand, I really do :)
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Nah, not that this will prove anything to you, but I only rarely loadout in heavy armor, and only briefly when I do. I used to play european-ish chars, but I've since changed to this generally more easternish armor wardrobe:
steppe armor
Black lamellar (my overall most common armor, looks nice, feels nice)
Sarranid guard armor (My second most common armor)
churburg or something in that range (occasionally, when I have good ping and feel like playing against other heavyweights, mostly for my main char, Archon, who has heirloom gold and is cav)
Black armor (just to have black armor for each char, can't maintain for more than a round or two, hardly ever use it)
My main set of chars (I have over a dozen) are slightly agi-heavy on average, because I like to be different and zoom to different combat engagements at-will.
So anyways...
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Whatever, this game isn't good because of realism. In some cases realism is just making it worse, like with glancing on heavy armor...
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totally off the wall here, and probably not doable with the engine, but what if all armor in the transitional to plate classes 'transformed' cut damage into blunt damage -7 ??
So, a nordic champion sword, for instance, would do 32 cut on a swing, until it encountered a 'plate class' armor, and then would do 25 blunt instead? (32-7=25)
This is what cut weapons DID to plate armor - they bashed them, and bieng as the higher original cut number seems to be based on weight of the weapon and hardness of the hit, this seems a logical formula for a 'blunt blow -7 or -8' as well, to 'simulate' what actually happened when a cut weapon encountered 'plate'???
If this could be done, I think it would be a pretty slick simulation and improvement... :)i say this because not only would it seem more logical, but it would still give a slight disadvantage to cut towards heavy, and make people lean towards a heavier hitting cut rating as the most viable cutting weapons vs armor.
Like for instance, that 'less heavy' cutter with a 27 cut, is going to suffer more from the -7 against plate, than the short hefty iron war axe with 37 cut;
So with the new equation:
L. Espada Eslavona: swing: 27 cut, swing against plate : 20 blunt
Iron War axe: swing: 37 cut, swing against plate: 30 blunt
So, as you can see, the historic cut weapon that continued to be effective in medieval times of a need to get through the heaviest armor on the field , - the big crushing war axe, gets the tactical advantage it should have, and the tapered one hand sword suffers a greater loss to its cutting effectiveness, and retains its stabbing pierce, which was what was becoming the one handed swords strong point historically.
If this could be done, i think it would be pretty neat, it could address any current unbalance, and fix what theyre trying to achieve here, and just make it an improvement to the historical accuracy, fan, making everyone happy.
So is it doable?? :lol:
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Please raise the base damage of my MW Military Cleaver to at least 40C. Thank you.
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"conversion of cut to a reduced blunt damage vs. metal plate armor"
I like this idea, although the line between what armors convert to blunt damage and which ones don't might become arbitrary. Even then, it seems to be an improvement as it distinguishes solid metal plate armor from mesh armor (beyond simply an increased "armor value"), which is a functional distinction in reality.
You could also add that pierce attacks do increased damage against the "mesh" armors (Mail is decent protection vs. cut, but its give provides little protection against a piercing attack). If however, the game already simulates this adequately, then it is not worth changing.
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I like this idea, although the line between what armors convert to blunt damage and which ones don't might become arbitrary. Even then, it seems to be an improvement as it distinguishes solid metal plate armor from mesh armor (beyond simply an increased "armor value"), which is a functional distinction in reality.
You could also add that pierce attacks do increased damage against the "mesh" armors (Mail is decent protection vs. cut, but its give provides little protection against a piercing attack). If however, the game already simulates this adequately, then it is not worth changing.
I agree, with what your saying (especially about pierce weapons too, and if the math already simulates this, then there would be no need to change.) But I dont think it does simulate this currently...
You could also make 'chances' to hit the chain in between the plate pieces... Like 25% on transitional 10% on the milanese etc...
Which brings me to another point - doing the same thing for other armor types, and damage types...
So for mesh, you could make the -cut modifier like -4 or something, and chain -3...
And for pierce and blunt? well, they are better for damage for heavier armor, but they have thier limitations as well... Maybe -3 for pierce and blunt against plate, -2 for pierce -1 for blunt against mesh, and -0 against chain and below for pierce and blunt, unless you hit that 25% vs transitional or 10% versus full plate, where again, these damage types would do full damage/chain mail modifier damage (simulating hitting the chain between the plate pieces) against the plate.
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You could also make 'chances' to hit the chain in between the plate pieces... Like 25% on transitional 10% on the milanese etc...
Hmm, this is not likely to happen and won't be popular if it is. Too much complexity for each armor model, and the people here don't like chance based mechanics, as a general rule.
Which brings me to another point - doing the same thing for other armor types, and damage types...
So for mesh, you could make the -cut modifier like -4 or something, and chain -3...
Not a terrible idea... would the sound files remain the same?= (cut sound for a cutting weapon, or would it now be a blunt sound?)
And for pierce and blunt? well, they are better for damage for heavier armor, but they have thier limitations as well... Maybe -3 for pierce and blunt against plate, -2 for pierce -1 for blunt against mesh, and -0 against chain and below for pierce and blunt, unless you hit that 25% vs transitional or 10% versus full plate, where again, these damage types would do full damage/chain mail modifier damage (simulating hitting the chain between the plate pieces) against the plate.
I definitely wouldn't mind trying such mechanics, but for practical reasons I don't believe they are feasible. The most feasible/acceptable part would be the cut to blunt conversion and damage reduction for at least plate armors.
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Yeah, your probably right - I'm not talking practical here, just kinda thinking outloud. also, perhaps the 'less armored'/chance say in the transitional, is already reflected in its lower armor rating, compared to say the milanese.
But I do think something like this could not only work, but it would have another affect....(besides historical accuracy/realism/a balancing point/etc.)
It would also increase the value of wearing the heavier armors, which, i think is slightly lacking in crpg...
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i like where you are coming from though its very viable vingnir
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I appreciate that the ideas that are being brought up are interesting and on topic as far as "cut damage tweaking" goes, but I would prefer to keep this thread on focus with the ideas/suggestions listed in the vote and OP. I think converting cut damage to blunt at a certain point would be much more long term and more challenging as far as changing things in WSE, whereas buffing weapon stats/penetration values for cut would be a much easier fix.
You're certainly welcome to make your own thread with that suggestion of course! :)