Poll

What should be done with cut damage?

Nothing - it is fine
59 (43.7%)
Buff cut weapon stats slightly
17 (12.6%)
Buff cut damage armor penetration slightly
42 (31.1%)
Buff weapon stats and armor penetration slightly
9 (6.7%)
Buff weapon stats and/or armor penetration greatly
8 (5.9%)

Total Members Voted: 135

Author Topic: Cut Damage Tweak?  (Read 7584 times)

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Offline Deathwhisper

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Re: Cut Damage Tweak?
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2011, 02:41:17 pm »
0
cut weapons already have higher damage ratings than blunt/pierces so it makes no sense to buff them.  i'll post some dmg examples later

This.

I'm pretty sure a great long bardiche overhead (46 cut) would deal more damage than an english bill overhead (31p), even against an armored target.

Offline Wraist

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Re: Cut Damage Tweak?
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2011, 02:42:26 pm »
-1
Long Bardiche is 45 cut, Long Hafted Spiked Mace is the highest blunt damage polearm aside from the long maul, with 32 blunt damage.

Against 60 armor, according to the damage calculator:

Bardiche:

Min: 10
Avg:22.5
Max: 35

LHSM:

Min: 13
Avg: 21.5
Max: 30

(18str, 6PS, 130 WPF), with their having equal averages at 2PS. At 36STR, 13PS, 130WPF, the Bardiche still has a lower minimum, higher average and maximum. This changes if somebody uses the great maul, but that has other disadvantages. The Bardiche also does more damage to weaker armor, so I think it's fine.

Offline MrShine

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Re: Cut Damage Tweak?
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2011, 04:16:10 pm »
0
Long Bardiche is 45 cut, Long Hafted Spiked Mace is the highest blunt damage polearm aside from the long maul, with 32 blunt damage.

Against 60 armor, according to the damage calculator:

Bardiche:

Min: 10
Avg:22.5
Max: 35

LHSM:

Min: 13
Avg: 21.5
Max: 30

(18str, 6PS, 130 WPF), with their having equal averages at 2PS. At 36STR, 13PS, 130WPF, the Bardiche still has a lower minimum, higher average and maximum. This changes if somebody uses the great maul, but that has other disadvantages. The Bardiche also does more damage to weaker armor, so I think it's fine.

I don't think the damage calculator has been updated with the newest armor soak/reduction numbers, iirc that's using the old formula. 
I'll see if I can do some tests over the weekend if laziness doesn't overcome.
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Offline Punisher

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Re: Cut Damage Tweak?
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2011, 05:46:16 pm »
0
Those are the calculations for the old formula, it's completely different now.

Offline Ylca

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Re: Cut Damage Tweak?
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2011, 06:18:42 pm »
+1
As an almost exclusive sword user i say i feel the last patch brought weapons in line nicely, and in fact gave swords an incredible boost. The numbers on the item matter for naught pre-patch as one would just constantly glance off armor. Now see glances much less often which leads to many more kills/assists. Also, now there's reason to use weapons from the blunt/cut/piercing classes instead of them just being reskin of the same item. Want reach and speed? Get a sword. Want more damage to cans? Get a club/ pick.

What people seem to fail to remember is that many of those tin cans you so hate also use cutting weapons so in addition to still having more armor than the rest of us with any change, a buff to the weapons would make them back into slaughter houses. If you tweak cut so that it can take down a tin can in a few hits, what's it going to do to a guy who prefers medium armor? How about a light armor guy like me?

As for the "5 hits to kill" that was the whole point of the new patch so that fights last for long enough to be interesting instead of the one-hit-KO fest we saw all the time pre-patch.

Out of all the changes made last major patch, i think the damage tweaks were the best and don't need to be changed at all.

Offline Paul

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Re: Cut Damage Tweak?
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2011, 07:33:41 pm »
-1
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« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 07:36:03 pm by Paul »

Offline Digglez

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Re: Cut Damage Tweak?
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2011, 08:27:08 pm »
0
As an almost exclusive sword user i say i feel the last patch brought weapons in line nicely, and in fact gave swords an incredible boost. The numbers on the item matter for naught pre-patch as one would just constantly glance off armor. Now see glances much less often which leads to many more kills/assists. Also, now there's reason to use weapons from the blunt/cut/piercing classes instead of them just being reskin of the same item. Want reach and speed? Get a sword. Want more damage to cans? Get a club/ pick.

What people seem to fail to remember is that many of those tin cans you so hate also use cutting weapons so in addition to still having more armor than the rest of us with any change, a buff to the weapons would make them back into slaughter houses. If you tweak cut so that it can take down a tin can in a few hits, what's it going to do to a guy who prefers medium armor? How about a light armor guy like me?

As for the "5 hits to kill" that was the whole point of the new patch so that fights last for long enough to be interesting instead of the one-hit-KO fest we saw all the time pre-patch.

Out of all the changes made last major patch, i think the damage tweaks were the best and don't need to be changed at all.

^^exactly what he said.  if you buff cut, we just go back to the way things were, everyone in plate using 2h sword.

Here is link to updated excel sheet to calculate dmg.
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,12223.msg172550.html#msg172550



Offline Christo

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Re: Cut Damage Tweak?
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2011, 08:31:27 pm »
0
^^exactly what he said.  if you buff cut, we just go back to the way things were, everyone in plate using 2h sword.

Wait, we're kinda at that point again.
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Offline Cheap_Shot

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Re: Cut Damage Tweak?
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2011, 09:49:22 pm »
0
Why is everyone going on and on about buffing cut weapons? If you look at the stats they are already fine. Sure the OP gave option on that poll to vote for a cut weapon buff, but if you notice no one is even voting for that. Two only real two options on the table are, change the way cut effects armour, or do nothing.

A cut weapon buff isn't what is needed. What is needed is some tweaks in how much cut damage armour soaks.

If the soak were a little less severe I might be in favour of doing nothing, however I feel like cut has just been too far separated from the rest of the weapons. That calculator is way out of date, and real stats might help this discussion continue. The point is, there is no reason to use anything with "cut" anymore. If you think there is, then you're wrong or stubborn or just like to argue. In many cases the cut weapons aren't even much cheaper then the pierce or blunt making it a no brainer. There is next to no reason to use them because they are incredibly ineffective against plate or heavy armour wearers. Why use a weapon that can only kill some people when you can just grab one that can kill everyone? Do you want to have to hit someone twenty times with a cut weapon when you know you could just grab something with pierce or blunt and finish the job in a fraction of the hits?

No. Obviously not.

I don't use cut melee weapons as often as I use cut throwing weapons so I'll have to just give an example from my experience. From my experience, I was told by Paul up there, that if I'm using cut throwing weapons I should "pretend they are bouncing off" if I skillfully stick half my ammo into one person with plate. Well ok, that's fairly retarded. If they are bouncing off then can you go ahead and make it so I can pick them back off? Because as it stands all those axes that "bounce off" are actually firmly embedded in someone who failed to die, and they proceed to run off with them like jewellery. Regardless, if I'm to understand that cut is useless against armour, then here is my thought process.

I like heavy throwing axes. They have a nice animation and are easy to find on the ground to pick back up again. They are much more visible in the air so I find tracking and judging targets is smoother as well. While the air speed is slower, they seem to draw back and throw more quickly and that makes them more suited to a skirmisher build with less powerthrow and more athletics. They are also not as incredibly expensive as the pierce weapons by about 2-5k depending. Those costs stack up when you carry multiple of them and I find I lose money even in the lightest cheap armour if I carry my loomed throwing spears. Cut throwing weapons however just can't kill plate.

So that puts me in a position. On the NA servers, the only people who don't wear heavy armour are archers and new players. Also me, since there are a lot of parallels with archery for some reason. It's like people think that every loom point on their armour adds an inch to their dicks, and they think their dicks should drag. Now I can choose between going completely broke but helping my team by using weapons that slow me down but can kill my targets, or I can use the best weapon I can afford to use consistently, but not be able to contribute to my team because my weapons "bounce off" everyone.

Go ahead and try to make that choice. I haven't been able to. I couldn't say how many times I have been on a team using cut weapons trying to recoup financial losses from using pierce weapons, and it comes down to me being the last alive agaist some guy in plate.

What am I supposed to say? "Sorry, we have already lost because my weapons bounce off him. He isn't even good at dodging, he just wont die. He has defeated me by having more money rather then skill."

All I can really offer is that insight to how the armour soak changes effected my gameplay as a thrower. Pretty significantly honestly.

tl:dr: There is no reason to use cut weapons anymore. The cut weapons don't need a buff, armour needs further balancing.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 09:52:33 pm by Cheap_Shot »
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Offline Xant

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Re: Cut Damage Tweak?
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2011, 10:09:21 pm »
+1
I think that something should be done to armor, too. So many people have loomed armor now and are running around with 70+ armor and still being fast because loomedlol. Combine that with slower combat pace and meh.
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Offline Tzar

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Re: Cut Damage Tweak?
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2011, 11:27:54 pm »
0
I think that something should be done to armor, too. So many people have loomed armor now and are running around with 70+ armor and still being fast because loomedlol. Combine that with slower combat pace and meh.

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Offline Leshma

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Re: Cut Damage Tweak?
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2011, 11:28:22 pm »
0
I have PS 8 and I use 39 cut weapon (MW Longsword). I hit koldborn who is wearing Lordly Rus mail once in the head (hold overhead) then 3 times right slash (spam). He survived.

Don't want you to buff cut damage, I want you to do something about armors.

Offline Teeth

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Re: Cut Damage Tweak?
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2011, 11:38:17 pm »
0
I have to agree, the amount of hits I need with 6 ps and a 43 cut weapon is really astonishing. Pretty much everyone used to go down in 3-4 and the occasional 5 back when I had 5 ps prepatch. Now its worse and I've had to hit people 6 or more times, with every hit dealing damage, but just a tiny bit. Still love the less glancing though.

Offline Ylca

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Re: Cut Damage Tweak?
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2011, 11:53:33 pm »
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I don't understand these statements at all.

So prepatch with my sword i wouldn't kill many people because my slices would glance off of them consantly doing no damage while theirs would continue through what i thought would be an interrupt and split me in half. The arguement that it takes 5  to 6 swings to kill someone in heavier armor boggles my mind, do you guys not remember two months ago when it would take 8 to 10 because more than half of the blows would glance? I certainly do.

From personal experience it takes fewer swings overall with the current system to kill a can than in the last system simply because every hit doesn't bounce off with laugable ineffectiveness. Beyond that the ability to actually hit a target and cause interrupts means that a pair of guys with swords can acutally effectively stop a can, instead of bouncing off armor as the whirling typhoon invulnerably strolls casually along.

I'm starting to get the feeling that the people who have issue with new armor soak have ridiculously high STR builds and are used to 1 hitting because their extra PS meant they didn't glance before. I'm sure it sucks for those who had 9 and 10 PS because it's not as much of an advantage before but for the rest of the peons from between 5 to 7 PS (around average) the armor soak change has been nothing but a boon in terms of our effectiveness in combat and our utility to our team.

I will agree that we need some hardcore walt+f4ing in here though or else everyone is going off of their own personal experience, which is a bit difficult since many of us have wildly differing builds.

I was honestly surprised that this conversation had gone this far as the patch was like Christmas for my build. It's starting to dawn on my that it might not have been so great for others, but the question is where is the disconnect? The patch was obviously a mega-boon for mid PS cut users, how do ultra low (<5) and above standard (8+) PS players feel?

6PS checking in here.

e: Also the thought of cut being worthless now boggles my mind. I've never gotten so many kills with a scimi as post-patch, and i remember the noted increase in actual effectiveness back when they were testing on EU pre-patch between the EU server and the NA server. Before hand cut was idiotic, just watch your weapon bounce into eternity. Now the blade actually slices through, causes stun, and makes for an effective tool in single and group combat.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 11:57:22 pm by Ylca »

Offline Leshma

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Re: Cut Damage Tweak?
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2011, 12:04:49 am »
0
I'm just unsatisfied because we're at square one, where we were pre-upkeep patch. Bunch of people have ridiculous amounts of defense points but unlike befoer they wear medium armor so they aren't slow and don't suffer penalties of wearing heavy armor.

To be able to compete with those players, one must grind his ass off, until he gets such gear for himself.

I find that this completely defeats the purpose of original upkeep patch.

We're back at heavy grind. Now it's even worse than before.

Devs must change armor heirlooms ASAP. Not in month or so, in a week!!!