cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Ganon on January 20, 2011, 03:50:59 pm
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There is one character i will run away from, no matter what i use. It's the polearm spammer. Even if you block, he will spam more. It has a hardcoded stun, does alot of damage and outranges everything except another polearm or a ranged character (in this case you also run, he's a spammer so he has high agi/athletics and will catch up). Most archers chose that weapon for melee as well, and do amazingly well on archery specced characters. It is obviously overpowered.
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2h spammer is butthurt someone's got a longer weapon ;)
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No, he's just trolling because in the other thread I said his Bar Mace (well crush trough) needs fixing.
His emotional attachment to his obviously OP weapon resulted in this pointless thread.
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No its completely ok for me to kill u with a long hafted spiked mace but if I do it with a 30 less reach lower speed rated heavier(again slower) bar mace its not ok
Fine I will play the polearm then enjoy your even less chances against me
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Bar Mace needs a lot of fixing, I agree on that. But Polearms never been so good. I've used Polearms pre big patch and they weren't as good as are now. Currently I have 1 wpf in polearms but despite that Long Hafted Blade is perfectly usable.
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Long hafted blade is perhaps op, but point is only agility builds use them.. and agility builds are what to be nerfed in my opinion.
Besides polearms have been nerfed especially heirloomed ones. I had temperd elegant poleaxe prepatch with 98 speed. The same would have now 92 Speed with +3 modifier..
Currently i use mighty german poleaxe with 91 speed and i get outspammed by 1 and 2 handers..
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Long hafted blade is perhaps op, but point is only agility builds use them.. and agility builds are what to be nerfed in my opinion.
Besides polearms have been nerfed especially heirloomed ones. I had temperd elegant poleaxe prepatch with 98 speed. The same would have now 92 Speed with +3 modifier..
Currently i use mighty german poleaxe with 91 speed and i get outspammed by 1 and 2 handers..
I don't understand the hate on AGI builds, they die in 1-2 hits and 3 at most even in heavy armor.
maybe learn to feint so that you actually hit them instead of just swinging the same direction over and over.
Str vs Agi builds, Agi build has to hit the guy 6-8 times with a cutting weapon the str build has to hit you once with basically any weapon.
Seems pretty balanced since the agi guy will be able to dance around and hopefully score those 6-8 hits before the str guy hits him once. but one mistake on the agi builds part and he's done where the str build has lots of room for error. Anyways this is kinda off topic from the post.
The only thing I see wrong with pole arms is the ridiculous pole axes that are balanced the same as swords (balanced as in if you miss a swing you don't have to recover before swinging again, every 2h axe is unbalanced but majority of the Pole arms that look unbalanced are actually balanced & can be used to backpeddle and spam perfectly because there's no consequence to missing with your super heavy pole axe.
I always mess up when I see a pole axe come at me and then he misses so I rush forward to take the initiative, guess what happens, his balanced pole axe gets no recovery time and gets to instant swing again smashing into me and 1 hitting me.
This is the only problem I have with pole axes.
Great Long Bardiche is UNBALANCED
Great Long AXE is Balanced
LONG MAUL is UNBALANCED
German Pole axe is balanced
I just don't get it, because most of these pole axes look unbalanced but they are not.
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Str vs Agi builds, Agi build has to hit the guy 6-8 times with a cutting weapon the str build has to hit you once with basically any weapon.
Maybe if the guy only has a 3 str and 1 PS, otherwise it doesn't nearly take that many hits. Especially in current armor standards. lolswords 1-3 shot with agi builds just fine.
As for the poleaxe should be unbalanced thing; Actually because of the way it's held, and weight is distributed, they're remarkably agile and balanced compared to using a 2h'd grip and trying to swing it. Polearm grip allows far more agile movement with heavier items than 2h'd grip in general.
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There is one character i will run away from, no matter what i use. It's the polearm spammer. Even if you block, he will spam more. It has a hardcoded stun, does alot of damage and outranges everything except another polearm or a ranged character (in this case you also run, he's a spammer so he has high agi/athletics and will catch up). Most archers chose that weapon for melee as well, and do amazingly well on archery specced characters. It is obviously overpowered.
Block a polearm twice and you won't be stunned... If they are spamming it shouldnt be very hard.
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Maybe if the guy only has a 3 str and 1 PS, otherwise it doesn't nearly take that many hits. Especially in current armor standards. lolswords 1-3 shot with agi builds just fine.
As for the poleaxe should be unbalanced thing; Actually because of the way it's held, and weight is distributed, they're remarkably agile and balanced compared to using a 2h'd grip and trying to swing it. Polearm grip allows far more agile movement with heavier items than 2h'd grip in general.
I see now, I was looking at it the totally wrong way thank you for the simple explanation lol xD doy.
I still enjoy speed more than power and thats why I rolled with AGI over STR & it's definitely player preference.
Also I realize it's near impossible to sort out all the different variables during combat so I'm just going to rephrase what I first said about the whole Agi vs Str thing
Agi vs Str build, Agi build has to hit the guy MOST LIKELY more than the STR build will have to hit the AGI guy before he dies. lol
Thanks again for sorting me out on pole axes, for some reason I was thinking them the exact same as 2h weapons when of course they are held completely differently. xD
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I don't understand the hate on AGI builds, they die in 1-2 hits and 3 at most even in heavy armor.
maybe learn to feint so that you actually hit them instead of just swinging the same direction over and over.
Str vs Agi builds, Agi build has to hit the guy 6-8 times with a cutting weapon the str build has to hit you once with basically any weapon.
Seems pretty balanced since the agi guy will be able to dance around and hopefully score those 6-8 hits before the str guy hits him once. but one mistake on the agi builds part and he's done where the str build has lots of room for error. Anyways this is kinda off topic from the post.
The only thing I see wrong with pole arms is the ridiculous pole axes that are balanced the same as swords (balanced as in if you miss a swing you don't have to recover before swinging again, every 2h axe is unbalanced but majority of the Pole arms that look unbalanced are actually balanced & can be used to backpeddle and spam perfectly because there's no consequence to missing with your super heavy pole axe.
I always mess up when I see a pole axe come at me and then he misses so I rush forward to take the initiative, guess what happens, his balanced pole axe gets no recovery time and gets to instant swing again smashing into me and 1 hitting me.
This is the only problem I have with pole axes.
Great Long Bardiche is UNBALANCED
Great Long AXE is Balanced
LONG MAUL is UNBALANCED
German Pole axe is balanced
I just don't get it, because most of these pole axes look unbalanced but they are not.
where did u get 6-8 hits from?
the only person i saw taking that much damage post-patch is goretooth in full gear
i die to ninjas in around 3 hits i think wearing decent gear
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Bar Mace needs a lot of fixing, I agree on that. But Polearms never been so good. I've used Polearms pre big patch and they weren't as good as are now. Currently I have 1 wpf in polearms but despite that Long Hafted Blade is perfectly usable.
Not all polearms are by any means balanced, some are stronger than the others, sure. You can easily see which polearms are good by looking what powerplayers use. By that I mean those who don't have 'favorite cool weapon' but just take whatever is currently OP.
However, that doesn't change the fact that polearms in general consist of a bunch of unbalanced weapons, and in general are quite slow. For example, right now I'm experimenting with Glaive and Swiss polearm, simply for fun. Both are slow.. swiss one is especially painfully slow unless you intend to do thrust the entire time.
A lot of polearms are long, but 2H thrusts outreach almost all of them.
A lot of them also only have thrust and overhead.
In short, I don't see a problem with polearm class itself, and if there are few polearms that need a nerf, I couldn't care less since I use many.
where did u get 6-8 hits from?
He was exaggerating to prove his flawed point. You can kill people in 2 hits with Military Sickle, which is 1H weapon, at 9 strength.
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just the concept that a pole axe can swing faster than a sword is funny. bring back the looney toons axe and give it 112 speed!
all heavy weapons should crush through side blocks and have a high recovery time, newton's 2nd law of physics supports this.
also they should get stuck in people and need to be pried out by repeatedly pressing kicking
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just the concept that a pole axe can swing faster than a sword is funny.
I agree.
And the concept that swords can stab further than spears is also very funny.
The fact that anime-flamberge exists with current fictional stats is also entertaining, especially when people try to explain me it's "historic" (lol).
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The flamberge is now a bad weapon and the only ones who use it are people who like that style. I don't use one, it's far too slow. It also tends to do lots of teamkills so in the end it doesn't really help winning a round.
Some polearm spammers are pretty crazy and i think making the polearms unbalanced will help alot, as will upping the requirements (this suggestion was made in another thread). That would balance them without nerfing them. I would also support upping the requirements for the barmace and all crush through weapons, so no one can spam them.
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Nothing beats the mighty 2h LOLSTAB. It's been imba before the patch, now it's even more ridiculous with the new animation+easier to use.
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Nothing beats the mighty 2h LOLSTAB. It's been imba before the patch, now it's even more ridiculous with the new animation+easier to use.
True
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The flamberge is now a bad weapon and the only ones who use it are people who like that style. I don't use one, it's far too slow. It also tends to do lots of teamkills so in the end it doesn't really help winning a round.
Some polearm spammers are pretty crazy and i think making the polearms unbalanced will help alot, as will upping the requirements (this suggestion was made in another thread). That would balance them without nerfing them. I would also support upping the requirements for the barmace and all crush through weapons, so no one can spam them.
Spammers don't care about unbalanced. The only thing that does is make feints & blocks harder.
About the same with the barmace, if you use it with only 13str it's not very problematic. Problem lies in the high weapon speed, which makes it practically a normal sword with that you can occasionally or often blockcrush, even at str18.
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Spammers don't care about unbalanced. The only thing that does is make feints & blocks harder.
About the same with the barmace, if you use it with only 13str it's not very problematic. Problem lies in the high weapon speed, which makes it practically a normal sword with that you can occasionally or often blockcrush, even at str18.
No if you miss with an unbalanced weapon, you get an additional delay, thus negating spam. You can see the animation continuing for another second or so.
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Nothing beats the mighty 2h LOLSTAB. It's been imba before the patch, now it's even more ridiculous with the new animation+easier to use.
Well, yes its effective, no it's not more ridiculous, its the same.
But yes its really easier to use, prepatch you needed timing or good clicking to catch the moment the thrust finished.
Now you can see it, what makes the RATATATATATATATA stab machine gun very easy.
You're polearm aren't you? Buy an awlpike :P
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Well, yes its effective, no it's not more ridiculous, its the same.
But yes its really easier to use, prepatch you needed timing or good clicking to catch the moment the thrust finished.
Now you can see it, what makes the RATATATATATATATA stab machine gun very easy.
You're polearm aren't you? Buy an awlpike :P
I have a 2hander character and a 1hander+shield aswell =).
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Nothing beats the mighty 2h LOLSTAB. It's been imba before the patch, now it's even more ridiculous with the new animation+easier to use.
Yup.
Still though knockdown with 94 sp long weapon > lolstab. :lol:
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The problem with the polearms is their stun, once you get hit you can't hit back and unless you block twice you're dead.
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The problem with the polearms is their stun, once you get hit you can't hit back and unless you block twice you're dead.
I noticed that only recently, the stun is very annoying indeed. I'm not sure it's a permastun though, usually there's some arrow hitting between 2 polearm hits when i'm unable to block at all.
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When stunned you can't attack, you can only block (if you press left-click nothing happens).
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Well for the most part, polearms dont bother me too much. what confuses me is that strength build tin cans can out spam me using elegant poleaxe or bec-de-corbin. it really bothers me when i have to struggle to land a hit with my 24 agil 172wpf and less than 10 weight sword and board character. i even experimented running around with only a peasant shirt, felt hat, steel buckler and a khyber knife... and i still could not keep up with the speed of polearms being used by guys with 9-15 agil. i guess the issue is the animations, for some reason the time from clicking attack to the time the blow lands, is shorter on big angry polearms than it is on crazy little knives. i dont expect to be able to counter everyone, but i think its a little rough when i have to hit someone about 5-6 times, whereas they 1 shot me... and they have the speed advantage too... oh and half my blows will bounce which usually leaves me pretty open.
regardless of realism (im sure most people have agreed that balance is more important than realism) i would be interested in seeing how things looked if some of the polearms were unbalanced. I also support Kalams idea of upping strength requirments on a lot of polearms/2handers (though some polearms dont seem to require any agility to be dangerously fast). or perhaps take another look at how armour effects wpf and speed. it seems that the run speed difference in heavy armour is noticeable, but the swing speed difference is very minor.
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I'm all for letting specialized characters be good at one thing, be it polearm spam or heavy hits or throwing, but what is pretty unbalanced is hybrid characters who are good at 2 things at once.
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Stop complaining, how do you think Poleaxe spammers feel about an agi Shield with Steel pick 2 shotting them to death after facehug? Or the annoying Projectiles flying everywhere eating up our HP? Or the Bar Mace that crushthrough our manual block? Just get better at the game.
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but what is pretty unbalanced is hybrid characters who are good at 2 things at once.
This is actually far closer to reality than someone that learned how to use a 2h'd sword but can't for the life of him figure out how to use a 1h'd sword, or vice versa.
Do you know how to swing a baseball bat? How about throw the ball? Or are you specialized to only do one thing at a time: Swing or throw?
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This is actually far closer to reality than someone that learned how to use a 2h'd sword but can't for the life of him figure out how to use a 1h'd sword, or vice versa.
Do you know how to swing a baseball bat? How about throw the ball? Or are you specialized to only do one thing at a time: Swing or throw?
Stop these american sport references, in soccer players learn one role and do that for their whole life, it's attack/center/defense/goalkeeper and even the side left/right/center will define a soccer player. Also why do you bring up sports when i say something pretty well known about role playing games, where obviously you can specialize or be a hybrid, but if the hybrid is good at multiple things, specialized characters make no sense. Just as crushtrough really works only on str builds (and if you think some balanced or agi character can use a crushtrough weapon with success, by all means test it and nerf it), polearm spam should work on polearm agi characters and not on archers or hybrid archer/melee which should do ok at both, but be at an disadvantage when being engaged in melee by a pure melee character. If this doesn't make sense to you, well idk, make more sport examples. Like american football, or golf ? Or maybe basketball ?
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Hybrid characters are already hit severely by one thing (well, two in some cases), which is upkeep.
For instance, a hybrid thrower/polearmer has to pay for circa 15K extra. I could be in far better armour without having to pay for 15K extra, not to mention 7 skillpoints.
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Stop these american sport references, in soccer players learn one role and do that for their whole life, it's attack/center/defense/goalkeeper and even the side left/right/center will define a soccer player. Also why do you bring up sports when i say something pretty well known about role playing games, where obviously you can specialize or be a hybrid, but if the hybrid is good at multiple things, specialized characters make no sense. Just as crushtrough really works only on str builds (and if you think some balanced or agi character can use a crushtrough weapon with success, by all means test it and nerf it), polearm spam should work on polearm agi characters and not on archers or hybrid archer/melee which should do ok at both, but be at an disadvantage when being engaged in melee by a pure melee character. If this doesn't make sense to you, well idk, make more sport examples. Like american football, or golf ? Or maybe basketball ?
Hey listen, why don't the specialized classes that are good at ONE THING quit complaining about hybrids who can't compete in that area, but can pull an alternate weapon and tactic on your butt? So...you want to be specialized...but also able to kill everyone with equal ability?
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Hybrid characters are already hit severely by one thing (well, two in some cases), which is upkeep.
For instance, a hybrid thrower/polearmer has to pay for circa 15K extra. I could be in far better armour without having to pay for 15K extra, not to mention 7 skillpoints.
Ok now, a reply that makes sense please ? Thanks.
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Stop these american sport references, in soccer players learn one role and do that for their whole life, it's attack/center/defense/goalkeeper and even the side left/right/center will define a soccer player. Also why do you bring up sports when i say something pretty well known about role playing games, where obviously you can specialize or be a hybrid, but if the hybrid is good at multiple things, specialized characters make no sense. Just as crushtrough really works only on str builds (and if you think some balanced or agi character can use a crushtrough weapon with success, by all means test it and nerf it), polearm spam should work on polearm agi characters and not on archers or hybrid archer/melee which should do ok at both, but be at an disadvantage when being engaged in melee by a pure melee character. If this doesn't make sense to you, well idk, make more sport examples. Like american football, or golf ? Or maybe basketball ?
So now that you've gotten your anti-american agenda out of the way, let's stick to your RPG example. This isn't a traditional RPG, this game actually requires skill. Going strictly by the math, a pure melee build will beat a hybrid build in melee. Same for any pure vs a hybrid in that field. Ah but now we throw the player skill into the mix, and if you were killed by a hybrid on your pure specialized melee character that means you were out-skilled and out-played. The end.
If you would like a guaranteed overwhelming advantage that guarantees a win vs a hybrid character when using a specialized character I would suggest picking up a tradition RPG (MMO) where skill isn't a factor in PvP. Just gear, level and spec. Otherwise a pure archer will pick up that 2h'd sword/polearm and kill you with it if they are better than you. And that's life.
In terms of balancing, you throw the skill factor out the window and go by the math. And the math says that in their chosen field a specialized "pure" character has the advantage over a hybrid character every time.
*BTW: I played soccer as a kid. Fuck soccer. If you want a universal sports example then MMA fighters vs a pure boxer, pure wrestler, etc. Chances are in a real streetfight the MMA guy (who's a hybrid, DUN DUN DUUUUUN) will win over the specialized fighter.*
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Gorath when talking about balance always assume in a hypotethical test, that the players are of equal skill please. What you just said is correct but doesn't represent an argument at all, it's just off-topic. The math doesn't say that, because hybrid characters are doing better, and some players are rerolling from specialized to hybrids. It's the same exact player, realizing hybrid > specialized so he rerolls.
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Gorath when talking about balance always assume in a hypotethical test, that the players are of equal skill please.
That's what I said, you throw the skill factor out the window. :rolleyes:
What you just said is correct but doesn't represent an argument at all, it's just off-topic. The math doesn't say that, because hybrid characters are doing better, and some players are rerolling from specialized to hybrids. It's the same exact player, realizing hybrid > specialized so he rerolls.
The math DOES say that. A pure 2her will have higher stats and skills in that role than a 2her thrower. The thrower needs to split WPF (or have one of them get neglected) and spend more skill points in PT. The 'pure' can take those points that would have been spent in PT to convert to extra stat points as well as focus all of their wpf into 2hers. The math says that in a melee fight the pure has the advantage.
The reason some players are rerolling from specialized to hybrids is for versatility. On a battle field you can be:
Ranged
Melee
OR ranged + melee
Which gives you more options on the field? You can make up for the stat deficiency by player better in order to compensate, and gain the ability to shift your role as you see fit from moment to moment. This still doesn't change the fact that mathmatically when facing a pure in the realm of the pure-build's focus that the hybrid is statistically at a disadvantage.
And how is this off-topic, this is responding to your fallacious claims about hybrids.
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Off topic was the obvious part about a skilled player winning over a lesser skilled one, which affects game balance how ?
I disagree on your opinion, having and tried different character builds, the way wpf (diminishing returns on wpf) and stats work favours the hybrid characters. The difference is minimal, while it should require alot more skill for an hybrid to kill a specialized character in his specific area, be it ranged or melee. Hybrids should be harder to play than what they are now. 2h/thrower 1h/shield/thrower, archer/polearm, are too easy right now. As you see that is not just math, saying ok the specialized has a tiny advantage, everything is fine, it's not and it's a maior balance issue that could lead to alot less diversification, where everyone is either a 1h or 2h + thrower hybrid or an archer + polearm (or some other non popular hybrid build). I'm not necessarly calling for a simple nerf, they just need to be harder to play so we don't see the servers with exclusively hybrids (aka tankmages in the old days).
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Off topic was the obvious part about a skilled player winning over a lesser skilled one, which affects game balance how ?
I disagree on your opinion, having and tried different character builds, the way wpf (diminishing returns on wpf) and stats work favours the hybrid characters. The difference is minimal, while it should require alot more skill for an hybrid to kill a specialized character in his specific area, be it ranged or melee. Hybrids should be harder to play than what they are now. 2h/thrower 1h/shield/thrower, archer/polearm, are too easy right now. As you see that is not just math, saying ok the specialized has a tiny advantage, everything is fine, it's not and it's a maior balance issue that could lead to alot less diversification, where everyone is either a 1h or 2h + thrower hybrid or an archer + polearm (or some other non popular hybrid build). I'm not necessarly calling for a simple nerf, they just need to be harder to play so we don't see the servers with exclusively hybrids (aka tankmages in the old days).
Personally I disagree. The slight advantage is what the pure's should have. Currently there's more diversity on the field than before. If hybrids were worse off stats/mechanics wise than they are now we'd have what we had before: Every melee is a 2her because that's the best melee build (it still is) and every ranged character is an archer because it's the best build (arguably still so).
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The only thing that needs fixing is the polearm stun. In effect, it increases the speed of all the weapons to the degree that they are faster than their posted ratings. I think that is where most of the frustration with spam is coming from. Normally, should you survive a 2hander hit, you have an opportunity to block the next attack. With a polearm spammer this is not the case. I would argue that any polearm that does blunt damage should continue to have this stun, but any cutting weapon should not as the 2h swords are.
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The only thing that needs fixing is the polearm stun. In effect, it increases the speed of all the weapons to the degree that they are faster than their posted ratings. I think that is where most of the frustration with spam is coming from. Normally, should you survive a 2hander hit, you have an opportunity to block the next attack. With a polearm spammer this is not the case. I would argue that any polearm that does blunt damage should continue to have this stun, but any cutting weapon should not as the 2h swords are.
Yeah you can't swing back with the stun in effect, it has been posted you can only block, i don't know for sure, but it should have some requirement if at all possible, so that only specialzed polearm users can stun, otherwise it gives a huge advantage (when you get hit, you need to block 2 times and not 1 to recover and be able to try and counterattack).
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There are two kinds of stun: block stun and hit stun. Block stun is when you block a larger weapon and because of that you can't attack for a short period. Hit stun is when you get hit and because of the stagger you can't do anything and get hit a second time. Block stun is fine, hit stun is not. The problem is that I don't think even the taleworlds devs realised hit stun would be possible, so I'm unsure if anything can be done about it.
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I think everything needs to be nerfed, except for the player style I currently use. Instead of complaining get some skill, or if your weapons not fast enough its probably because you need wp's or agility. Your suckiness does not mean that everything else must be nerfed so that you can be a better player. If you think a certain weapon class is strong then use it, dont complain.
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Stop these american sport references, in soccer players learn one role and do that for their whole life, it's attack/center/defense/goalkeeper and even the side left/right/center will define a soccer player. Also why do you bring up sports when i say something pretty well known about role playing games, where obviously you can specialize or be a hybrid, but if the hybrid is good at multiple things, specialized characters make no sense. Just as crushtrough really works only on str builds (and if you think some balanced or agi character can use a crushtrough weapon with success, by all means test it and nerf it), polearm spam should work on polearm agi characters and not on archers or hybrid archer/melee which should do ok at both, but be at an disadvantage when being engaged in melee by a pure melee character. If this doesn't make sense to you, well idk, make more sport examples. Like american football, or golf ? Or maybe basketball ?
So what are polearm spammers supposed to be good against? Shields? An agi Huscarl shielder is basically unbreakable unless you got 8 good wacks on it. Plus, polearm attacks bounce when hitting a shield, allowing a shielder to retaliate. Archers? Polearms are targets for archers, unlike shielders. So that leaves calvalry and 2 handers. Cav, duh, but 2 handers are equal in speed and range to polearms, nevermind the OP barmace that crushthrough manual block and seemingly everyone uses.
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Polearms have a crushthrough weapon. Really weird in the other thread where a polespammer complains about crushthrough but forgets he has his own boulder on a stick weapon. If you spam a shield user you will break his shield, given that you can block his response properly. Against an archer you need to get in melee archer dea.. oh wait he's probably a polearm spammer as well. That's a problem but some people think it's perfectly balanced. Vs 2handers you have a huge advantage, if you hit they need 2 blocks to recover, you also have weapons with knockdown and crushtrough, so you might knock him down if you hit or crush through the block.
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So what are polearm spammers supposed to be good against? Shields? An agi Huscarl shielder is basically unbreakable unless you got 8 good wacks on it. Plus, polearm attacks bounce when hitting a shield, allowing a shielder to retaliate. Archers? Polearms are targets for archers, unlike shielders. So that leaves calvalry and 2 handers. Cav, duh, but 2 handers are equal in speed and range to polearms, nevermind the OP barmace that crushthrough manual block and seemingly everyone uses.
Bar Mace is a lie! I have one and I stopped using it because even with PS9 I found it ineffective: it would crush through a shield block less than half the time. When, with my Strength, a Long Bardiche will chew up a Huscarl shield in 4 or 5 blows anyway, without forcing me to always use overheads and close to turtle strike range, the BM is a waste of a slot. Because they stand out, people remember the occasions when the Bar Mace user got very lucky and crushed through 3 times in a row, forgetting all the other occasions when he was an easy kill.
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Polearms have a crushthrough weapon. Really weird in the other thread where a polespammer complains about crushthrough but forgets he has his own boulder on a stick weapon.
Wow Ganon how pathetic can you be? Are you devoid of all intellectual capabilities to even grasp the most simple concepts?
Boulder on a Stick is a properly balanced weapon - it offers something but has huge disadvantage. As a matter of fact Boulder is worthless. It's very bad weapon, it's worse than ALL crush through weapons. If you stop being so blindly emotional all the time maybe you would get what people are trying to say. I am not against crush-through mechanic, I merely think it needs serious drawbacks that Mauls and Boulder have, otherwise the potential for abuse or abuse itself is always there and it doesn't add anything to gameplay enjoyment or tactics.
If you want to be emotional get a girlfriend or go to a church. Forums are for intellectual debates.
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The only thing that needs fixing is the polearm stun. In effect, it increases the speed of all the weapons to the degree that they are faster than their posted ratings. I think that is where most of the frustration with spam is coming from. Normally, should you survive a 2hander hit, you have an opportunity to block the next attack. With a polearm spammer this is not the case. I would argue that any polearm that does blunt damage should continue to have this stun, but any cutting weapon should not as the 2h swords are.
+1
Either remove stun effect from polearms or give 2H weapons the same ability.
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First off, your title is wrong, , when I last played the game, throwing was seriously overpowered, while melee weapons got a huge nerf. There are already enough backpedaling shield/1h/thrower guys around here.
Also, you have problems with a spammer? Spammers are players who won't block no matter what. I think you've got the meaning wrong.
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Also, you have problems with a spammer? Spammers are players who won't block no matter what. I think you've got the meaning wrong.
No he didn't, polearm spammers are the hardest to counter because polearms have a stun effect (even the ones that deal cut damage) and once stunned you can only swing back if you block the attacker twice in a row.
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Well, I'm a polearm user, some may call me a spammer, but I don't care.
If it bugs you, I don't mind if the stun effect gets removed. I'll use a polearm with my main 'till death. :wink:
Btw, Why is everything getting nerfed except backpedaling throwers?
I want a damage decrease. kthx
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Afaik all heavier weapons when striking a lighter weapon can stun the lighter weapon.
Polearms are as a rule heavier then 2h swords.
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The stun on pole arm is the one thing that makes them competitive wit 2h's far faster animations.
Its hard to face a pole arms spammer with a 1h'er especially if your a shielder and they're using an anti shield weapon but you're probably forgetting that pole arms are designed to counter your build. Just as you can counter archers...
When it comes to 2h vs pole arms there so little difference between them except that 2h's work better in smaller spaces with more fluid animations which are faster where as pole arms have a stun to give them an advantage if they land the first hit.
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The stun on pole arm is the one thing that makes them competitive wit 2h's far faster animations.
Its hard to face a pole arms spammer with a 1h'er especially if your a shielder and they're using an anti shield weapon but you're probably forgetting that pole arms are designed to counter your build. Just as you can counter archers...
When it comes to 2h vs pole arms there so little difference between them except that 2h's work better in smaller spaces with more fluid animations which are faster where as pole arms have a stun to give them an advantage if they land the first hit.
me agrees, this pretty much sums it up. And again, feeling outspammed? Get more agi and wpf!
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Afaik all heavier weapons when striking a lighter weapon can stun the lighter weapon.
Polearms are as a rule heavier then 2h swords.
well bec is lighter than sword of war
elegant poleaxe is lighter than flamberge, danish and german twohanders
and those are the two most popular poleaxes and their counterparts in twohanded department.
as far as i am concerned that seems right because they aren't massive pieces of steel like those big swords
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Quote from: Ganon on Yesterday at 00:04:39
Off topic was the obvious part about a skilled player winning over a lesser skilled one, which affects game balance how ?
I disagree on your opinion, having and tried different character builds, the way wpf (diminishing returns on wpf) and stats work favours the hybrid characters. The difference is minimal, while it should require alot more skill for an hybrid to kill a specialized character in his specific area, be it ranged or melee. Hybrids should be harder to play than what they are now. 2h/thrower 1h/shield/thrower, archer/polearm, are too easy right now. As you see that is not just math, saying ok the specialized has a tiny advantage, everything is fine, it's not and it's a maior balance issue that could lead to alot less diversification, where everyone is either a 1h or 2h + thrower hybrid or an archer + polearm (or some other non popular hybrid build). I'm not necessarly calling for a simple nerf, they just need to be harder to play so we don't see the servers with exclusively hybrids (aka tankmages in the old days).
Personally I disagree. The slight advantage is what the pure's should have. Currently there's more diversity on the field than before. If hybrids were worse off stats/mechanics wise than they are now we'd have what we had before: Every melee is a 2her because that's the best melee build (it still is) and every ranged character is an archer because it's the best build (arguably still so).
Gorath... i'll have to agree with Ganon concerning specialization , the return you get for being crazy enough to specialize is ultra low , with that being said people dont it anymore and people are becoming hybrids... which came to another problem most became throwers hybrids :p we had peasant wars , plate wars, xbow wars , and now its officially the era of ITHROWSHITATYOU ( great char name btw :D )
heck i dont even specialize anymore myself , 15 agi man nothing else rest in str , people said i used to hit hard, they will have no idea when i will have 8 ps
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Gorath... i'll have to agree with Ganon concerning specialization , the return you get for being crazy enough to specialize is ultra low , with that being said people dont it anymore and people are becoming hybrids... which came to another problem most became throwers hybrids :p we had peasant wars , plate wars, xbow wars , and now its officially the era of ITHROWSHITATYOU ( great char name btw :D )
heck i dont even specialize anymore myself , 15 agi man nothing else rest in str , people said i used to hit hard, they will have no idea when i will have 8 ps
High tier throwing weapons might need a tweak in their damage sure but really specialized builds still do have the advantage in their chosen field strictly by mechanics. The issue I can see is that player skill comes into play. Lets look at Goretooth just as an example. Currently he's an archer right? Pretty dedicated too given his super high strength and bow choice. He also picks up a random weapon off the ground and still wrecks people when need be and the reason isn't that hybrids are that much better off mathmatically than a pure melee; stat wise the pure melee should win hands down; it's that Gore just shreds period. Give a good player only 1 tool to work with and they'll go far. Give them two tools to work with, even while less effective than the pures, and they're going to tear shit up even more because of versatility, not stats.
Of course if we want to go to a class based game (because let's be real, that's all super specialized builds are) then there's going to need to be a huge overhaul of the balance in the game as:
xbowmen, throwers and to a lesser degree archers would all be shit (since if they carry a melee weapon they're now a "hybrid")
1hers would be shit since 2hers can carry shields for advancing and then dominate melee (but what else is new)
2h/polearms would be the de-facto infantry builds with the advantage vs all non-cav given to 2hers and a slight cav advantage to polearms.
Cav would be cav (I doubt much would change).
Really what it seems like the whole thing boils down to is "TOO MUCH RANGED WEAPONRY, GAAAAAAH". And truth be told I can understand this and melee is awesome. However, if you make ranged weapon users absolutely incapable of melee combat because of some extreme specialization buff / hybrid nerf then we might as well turn ranged combat off. Better to turn it off than to punish skilled players by adding artificial limitations on their possibility to defend themselves at all. A disadvantage for being a hybrid, sure, but we have that currently. I say this because I really don't see anyone complaining about such hybrids as my 1h/shield+polearm hybrid. No rage threads saying "WTF, Sword and board pulling out a spear is OP!!!!!!! NERF"
Instead it's all about ranged being hybridized with something. So I ask, if an archer/xbowman/thrower kills you in melee then it's a problem with game mechanics? If he kills you with the ranged weapon he's just a my old friend right? So.... why don't we stop beating around the bush and just get rid of ranged altogether? If that's not what this is about then I really don't comprehend what the issue is, because on any of my characters (and I've ALWAYS played some kind of hybrid, to the point that pre-patch I was hybrid in 4 weapons remember?) the pure builds have always been faster and hit harder, including now, in their respective specialization.
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I don't understand your post Gorath. If the game would be rebalanced for a class system (which is NOT what i want btw) then 2handers will have problems using shields, archers will do just fine by running away and shooting only from range (just no melee ownage from archers like now), and so on.
I am playing a specialized character because i like to maximize on what i'm doing, i tried a hybrid build and while it was more versatile and more powerful, it felt stupid to play. I prefer losing by learning to do more difficult stuff than winning by oneshotting people with throwing while being mostly melee specced. What i did call for is to make it harder for hybrids so skilled players would do well, while the maiority would chose to specialize.
There was some crazy polearm spammer today, he was so fast with my bad 70 ping i couldn't see the animation in time. Only way to kill him was from range or to get a lucky facehug->bump->hit which won't work against more skilled players for obvious reasons. He would also kill most people on my team by just spamming, so we started camping a roof and i had to use a xbow with 1 wpf, just because of that guy.
Ranged weaponry is ok, people should be able to play what they enjoy, to oneshot str based characters in heavy armor is NOT OK
Archers do fine in melee currently, it's a real fight most of the time, of course they all chose a polearm because with they high agi it can be spammed. So what's the reason to go full polearm, or full archer, when you can do both let's say at 75% efficiency of a specialized character. Summed up it would be 150% efficiency vs 100% of the specced one, while you should be at 50% efficiency if you chose to do 2 things at once, that way it would be balanced.
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Archers do fine in melee currently, it's a real fight most of the time, of course they all chose a polearm because with they high agi it can be spammed. So what's the reason to go full polearm, or full archer, when you can do both let's say at 75% efficiency of a specialized character. Summed up it would be 150% efficiency vs 100% of the specced one, while you should be at 50% efficiency if you chose to do 2 things at once, that way it would be balanced.
I see archers with 2hs fairly often as well. Simple fact is that archers use a 2h/polearm because they're the most effective at melee, even with low wpf. Hell, with 1 wpf and decent character stats you can pick up a twohander or a polearm from the ground and fight (don't try to portray this as "polearms can be spammed", since they can be spammed no more then a eg. 2h weapon can).
The reason to go full polearm of course is points,wpf and upkeep. For instance, instead of a polearm/throwing hybrid with 21/15 stats I have now, I could have a pure polearmer with 21/18 (by level 31, now am level 30) and wearing transitional instead of mail (7K mail is upkeepable, therefore 22K transitional would be upkeepable without three stacks of throwing axes which cost 15K). The reason to hybridize is actually the fact that throwing currently utterly rapes, not anything else - being able to spam one/two-hit kill projectiles is just too damn appealing.
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i decided to try a diff build myself this gen. im an archer/1hander (no shield). i find that whether i bring my 1 hand axe with 80 wpf(im still putting in more points) or a bec with 1wpf, im still equally effective in melee. sometimes i throw on my kinda-heavy armour (transitional) and take only the bec with 1 wpf, and i usually get a better k/d than i do trying to shoot people with a bow. i can only imagine how effective i would be if i actually put some wpf into polearms... anyways, point is; even without wpf a decent player can put up a fight with any wep they can hold. I can be spammed to death if i use the bec cause i only have 15 agil right now, but most opponents are beatable.
i think the biggest issue right now is that you can be a capable thrower without any wpf... so all these strength builds just pump skills into power throw and put all their wpf into 2h or polearms, and they can fling shit with the best of them, while still being basically specialized in melee... thats why theres so many throwers. at least archers have to put 120+ wpf into archery as well as a bunch of points into power draw if they want to be effective... crossbows dont require any skill points, nor is wpf necessary, but they are so slow and expensive that you dont see too many of em, so not a big issue. i think its survivable to have throwing remain as powerful as it is now, but it should require 100+ wpf to be able to hit with any reliability... power throw seems to increase accuracy too much, should be damage not accuracy.
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I was there in same team of ganon there was a guy attacking with hafted blade 95 speed faster then the hit animation.
Now I don't mind agi stackers but there should be a limit if he hit you once you were dead he was so fast he was able to hit you while you were recovering several times and I got 21 agi 160 wpf in 2h with bastard and still got out spammed.
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I was there in same team of ganon there was a guy attacking with hafted blade 95 speed faster then the hit animation.
Now I don't mind agi stackers but there should be a limit if he hit you once you were dead he was so fast he was able to hit you while you were recovering several times and I got 21 agi 160 wpf in 2h with bastard and still got out spammed.
brb Buying haft blade
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I don't understand your post Gorath. If the game would be rebalanced for a class system (which is NOT what i want btw) then 2handers will have problems using shields, archers will do just fine by running away and shooting only from range (just no melee ownage from archers like now), and so on.
2hers pick up a rank 0 shield or put 1 lonely solitary point into shield for the board shield and that problem is solved. Most 2her whine about ranged comes from the fact they refuse to do this, not that they "can't" (which is why their whine is bullshit.) 0-1 points gives you all the benefits of being a 1her/shield vs range, with all the power of a 2her/polearm in melee. Talk about broken :wink:
I am playing a specialized character because i like to maximize on what i'm doing, i tried a hybrid build and while it was more versatile and more powerful, it felt stupid to play. I prefer losing by learning to do more difficult stuff than winning by oneshotting people with throwing while being mostly melee specced. What i did call for is to make it harder for hybrids so skilled players would do well, while the maiority would chose to specialize.
Right here you prove my point. "than winning by oneshotting people with throwing while being mostly melee specced."
Your complaint is about ranged, not hybrids themselves as it doesn't seem you have a problem with say a 1h/2h hybrid utilizing the langes messer and fighting axe for instance. Thanks.
There was some crazy polearm spammer today, he was so fast with my bad 70 ping i couldn't see the animation in time. Only way to kill him was from range or to get a lucky facehug->bump->hit which won't work against more skilled players for obvious reasons. He would also kill most people on my team by just spamming, so we started camping a roof and i had to use a xbow with 1 wpf, just because of that guy.
So the specialized guy was more powerful than all those hybrids on your team in melee, and it was only because of the ability to shift your combat to range that you were able to take him down? Sounds balanced to me. That's the benefit of the hybrid, multiple roles. That's the drawback to the hybrid: Not as good in those roles as pures.
Ranged weaponry is ok, people should be able to play what they enjoy, to oneshot str based characters in heavy armor is NOT OK
Str based characters one shotting balanced builds in medium armor isn't ok either. How is that statement any less valid than yours? Agi based characters should never be 1 shot. Headshots are headshot man, they oneshot everyone (except for flukes). Your STR build with heavy armor should not grant you limitless protection, and I guarantee you that you can take more abuse than my balanced build (18/18) character in medium armor by far. This just sounds like a case of either grass is greener, or the headshot blues. I guarantee you that if you're getting one-shot by a ranged weapon anywhere other than the head: It's from a pure build thrower or archer, not a hybrid. If you're getting one shot by a ranged weapon in the head, well then no shit, it's a damn head shot.
Archers do fine in melee currently, it's a real fight most of the time, of course they all chose a polearm because with they high agi it can be spammed. So what's the reason to go full polearm, or full archer, when you can do both let's say at 75% efficiency of a specialized character. Summed up it would be 150% efficiency vs 100% of the specced one, while you should be at 50% efficiency if you chose to do 2 things at once, that way it would be balanced.
Where are you getting these arbitrary %'s? Look, what your whole post sums up to, as I said before, is that ranged guys should never be able to beat you in melee. And melee guys should never have access to any ranged weapons. Class based. Nowhere in your entire post did you say anything counter to this. In fact you've just been reinforcing the idea.
If we're going by your arbitrary %'s thing then your math is still fail because of your bias as it would be more like:
Pure melee 100% melee / 50% ranged (Just picks up an xbow with no skill investments whatsoever) Total = 150%
Pure ranged 50% melee / 100% ranged (Just picks up a random 2h/polearm and can kill people fine provided he can manual block) Total 150%
Hybrid ranged/melee 75% melee/ 75% ranged (Lower than either pure in their field, better than them in their off-field) total 150%
This is how it works unless you either:
Refuse to pick up an xbow at all on your melee character
Refuse to pick up a melee weapon at all on your ranged character
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I'll make a short reply because it's late.
If you talk about a specialized 2hander, he will not have a shield. If the game were rebalanced for that, putting 1 point in shield would absolutely suck and offer very little protection. Arrows would just go through it. You can't first make an hypothesis and then make an example about the current game, that's mixing two different scenarios, and is really confusing.
My observation about the polearm spammer was to go back on topic, and you don't need to be specialized to spam a polearm. I think you know that. Then there's of course the observation to put in a swing speed cap to stop all spam, be it polearm, 2h or 1h.
Ranged is not a problem in itself, the problem is you can make a good ranged character that is not countered by melee or cavalry because he has good melee and anti-cav defense as well. Ranged characters can be good, but they should be counterable at close range. We clearly have one build having an advantage over everything else. My numbers were just to explain the situation, don't take them literally, i would need to check with the damage calculator to show the real numbers. If you consider how wpf works, they might be even worse than what i wrote in my previous post.
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Yesterday he said he has 27 agi yet he still kill tincans probably because of pierce and speed bonus. You should really see him fight and see why there should be a limit on how much faster you can be with all that stacked agi as polearm user.
See him play on eu_1 around 1-2:00 am GMT+1 nokeyboard something like that is his name.
He was even able to chain stun you with pike lol.
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Yesterday he said he has 27 agi yet he still kill tincans probably because of pierce and speed bonus. You should really see him fight and see why there should be a limit on how much faster you can be with all that stacked agi as polearm user.
See him play on eu_1 around 1-2:00 am GMT+1 nokeyboard something like that is his name.
He was even able to chain stun you with pike lol.
This is an extreme case, the regular Joe with his pointy stick won't do that.
Also, why "as polearm user?" the other weapon types are okay for you with stacked agility?
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There should be a limit of speed FROM agility not lower speed from polearms.
Polearm problem is that their hits stun like crazy unlike 2h (Not that with a katana and 27 agi you wouldn't be able to do it too).
I maybe should have worded it better on earlier post but yes there should be a limit on how much speed bonus you get from agility.
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There should be a limit of speed FROM agility not lower speed from polearms.
Polearm problem is that their hits stun like crazy unlike 2h (Not that with a katana and 27 agi you wouldn't be able to do it too).
I maybe should have worded it better on earlier post but yes there should be a limit on how much speed bonus you get from agility.
Problem is current level cap and heirloom bonuses and base damage. 25 would be far better level cap than 30. +1/+2 damage and speed from heirloom would be better than current +4/+5. Or take it the other way, increase reduction factor by 30% for each weapon types.
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25 would be far better level cap than 30.
And 20 would be better than 25.
*Only half joking. 30 is a good level cap, anything less leaves everyone in a semi-retarded state grinding furiously to get back to 30. Remember 30 is only a SOFT cap, while 35 I believe is the hard cap. I'm almost 31 on 4 different toons and plan to take them all to 35.*
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2hers pick up a rank 0 shield or put 1 lonely solitary point into shield for the board shield and that problem is solved. Most 2her whine about ranged comes from the fact they refuse to do this, not that they "can't" (which is why their whine is bullshit.) 0-1 points gives you all the benefits of being a 1her/shield vs range, with all the power of a 2her/polearm in melee. Talk about broken :wink:
Sorry but you're totally wrong. I have yet to see a group of 2handers with lvl0-1 shields charging into a crowd of enemies and attacking them at the same time. It's impossible cause as soon as they put away their shields they get instantly hit, pure 1hand+shielders on the other hand can advance just holding their right mouse button and clicking left mouse button when needed , a group of decent 1handers can do a much better/more coordinated attack/defence than a group of 2handers with shields. There's many more benefits , but i just wanted to point this out.
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Not to mention with the level 31 cap, even 1 points in shields can completely screw up a pure 2H build (for my build for example I would have to give up 1 PS or 1 WM for 1 shield point).
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On my 2her I have 2 points in shield for the board shield because of all the throws at the cost of 2 less ironflesh tough (Not that 4 hp would make much difference) but I understand if people wouldn't want to spend points in shield and use the 0 ones eventhough they get destroyed in 1 hit most of the times.
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Not to mention with the level 31 cap, even 1 points in shields can completely screw up a pure 2H build (for my build for example I would have to give up 1 PS or 1 WM for 1 shield point).
How so?
Age 45 [30]
Generation 2
Attribute Points 0
Skill Points 1
Weapon Proficiency Points 2
Strength 17
Agility 21
One Handed 1 [1 WPF cost]
Two Handed 144 [9 WPF cost]
Polearm 1 [1 WPF cost]
Archery 1 [1 WPF cost]
Crossbow 1 [1 WPF cost]
Throwing 100 [5 WPF cost]
Ironflesh 0
Power Strike 5
Shield 0
Athletics 7
Riding 0
Horse Archery 0
Power Draw 0
Power Throw 5
Weapon master * 7
This is my current 2h/thrower. I have every skill maxed out currently and could still put 1 into shields if I wasn't saving up for more PT at 31. With a pure 2h/ no throwing I could have 18/21 with 1 extra stat point, and still have every skill maxed with 1 point left over to put into shield skill.
How does it fuck up the build when all you need for a 2her is PS, ATH, and WM. Also at this high of a level, 1 WM really doesn't give you much and could easily be put into shield while you still retain a 150+ wpf in your chosen weapon.
Like I said, it's not a matter of CAN'T but WON'T which makes all the whining a bunch of bullshit.
Sorry but you're totally wrong. I have yet to see a group of 2handers with lvl0-1 shields charging into a crowd of enemies and attacking them at the same time. It's impossible cause as soon as they put away their shields they get instantly hit, pure 1hand+shielders on the other hand can advance just holding their right mouse button and clicking left mouse button when needed
OMG, your counter argument is more 2her elitist misinformation and anti-1her bias? Wow. The 1hers cannot advance into multiple enemies and attack at the same time they are defending themselves either. They either turtle, or attack. If they choose to attack they are just as vunerable as 2hers (you cannot block while attacking, derp.) If you're talking about ranged weapons hitting you well that's a crapshoot anyways if they're just blithely firing into a multi-person melee furball and 1hers have just as much chance of taking a stray arrow in their side or back as the 2her does.
What's so complicated about advancing with a shield/longsword (b.sword, M.star, katana, etc) until you reach the melee line and then pressing the key to put the shield away so you can commence attacking?
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This is my build:
Level 31
Strength 18
Agility 24
Ironflesh 0
Power Strike 6
Shield 0
Athletics 6
Riding 0
Horse Archery 0
Power Draw 0
Power Throw 0
Weapon master 8
So for 1 shield I have to give up on 1 PS/Ath/WM and it's obviously not worth it.
But this discussion has nothing to do with this nerf polearms topic.
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OMG, your counter argument is more 2her elitist misinformation and anti-1her bias? Wow. The 1hers cannot advance into multiple enemies and attack at the same time they are defending themselves either. They either turtle, or attack. If they choose to attack they are just as vunerable as 2hers (you cannot block while attacking, derp.) If you're talking about ranged weapons hitting you well that's a crapshoot anyways if they're just blithely firing into a multi-person melee furball and 1hers have just as much chance of taking a stray arrow in their side or back as the 2her does.
What's so complicated about advancing with a shield/longsword (b.sword, M.star, katana, etc) until you reach the melee line and then pressing the key to put the shield away so you can commence attacking?
Anti-1her ? Elitist ? Really? Could you be even less original ? Don't put words into my mouth please Gorath, i was actually saying that 1hers are BETTER in some situations, do you disagree ? I hope not, otherwise it's pointless to go on cause one of us is incometent and has no clue about this game.
0-1 skillpoints shields break in a couple of strikes and comparing them to the shields pure 1handers use is nonsense.
Besides, shielders can actually cover their teammates from sideswings with shields. And if you're saying 1handers cannot advance and attack at the same time, check Mercs/Drz when they play together from time to time. That is in case NA community doesn't have decently organized clans with 1hander squads.
1 more thing- why/how should someone advance with a katana/bastardsword and a shield if he uses a let's say danish greatsword ?
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He wouldn't, 2hander and most poleaxe users use shields as something to take cover behind not fight with. Said person would switch to shield in any case where cover is needed and switch back to 2h once ready to engage enemy.
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I was actually saying that 1hers are BETTER in some situations, do you disagree ?
Sure, better at advancing on ranged guys. In melee I still contest that 2h/polearms are better in every situation, multiple enemies or single opponents. I know I've been playing my 2her pretty much exclusively, without a shield at all, and it's far easier to fuck shit up than it is on a 1her.
0-1 skillpoints shields break in a couple of strikes and comparing them to the shields pure 1handers use is nonsense.
Not against arrows. They last quite a while, often times looking like they've grown a small forest of arrows on them without breaking. Compared to the huscarl shield, sure they're much weaker but that's an issue with internal shield balancing because frankly the huscarl shield is still overall hands down the best shield in every situation. I use heater shields or smaller kite/round shields than the huscarl partially because I want more speed (which isn't noticable) and partially because being just another member of the huscarl masses is full of "meh" in my eyes in terms of visual style.
And if you're saying 1handers cannot advance and attack at the same time, check Mercs/Drz when they play together from time to time. That is in case NA community doesn't have decently organized clans with 1hander squads.
We do, but the mechanics do not allow you to block and attack at the same time with a shield. If you're attacking, you're vunerable. That's what I'm saying. If you're advancing with shield up, you're not attacking. 2hers/polearm users can do this as well. Equip shield, hold RMB, advance to melee range, put shield away.
1 more thing- why/how should someone advance with a katana/bastardsword and a shield if he uses a let's say danish greatsword ?
Then that's the drawback of using a lolsword. I don't carry a shield at all on my 2her and I find it's perfectly balanced. I'm vunerable to ranged, but I can 1-2 hit everyone in melee range along with being faster due to animations and with more reach than 1hers. If you're going to use a lolsword you either suck it up against ranged (fair) or grab a random shield for 1 of your 3 unused weapon slots and use it to advance, putting away when you get in melee ranged (fair).
I'm not sure how we got on this topic either except that somewhere back in the thread someone brought up the whole hybrid issue again which somehow led to this point.
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and now its officially the era of ITHROWSHITATYOU ( great char name btw :D )
Thanks!
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One thing i'd like to correct, is that polestun seems to work even against blocking (can't block while stunned, as opposed to what other people said in the thread). So if the polespammer is an extreme spammer, get hit once and you're dead/permastunned.
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On my thrower alt, I have only 50 wpf in 2H. I have not experienced polestun or the inability to attack any polearm user. I am able to block and counter quite effectively.
It's just a matter of skill and timing.
Edit: And that char has gone up against goretooth, devilize, and a few other skilled polearm users.
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The polearm stun is mostly noticeable when you make the patter thrust slash thrust but you need some agi and not a slow weapon to do this (You can do it with pike too only thrusting with enough agility and wpf)
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On my thrower alt, I have only 50 wpf in 2H. I have not experienced polestun or the inability to attack any polearm user. I am able to block and counter quite effectively.
It's just a matter of skill and timing.
Edit: And that char has gone up against goretooth, devilize, and a few other skilled polearm users.
I surely lack the skill for clicking the mousebuttons. Thanks for telling me, i never thought of it!